Competitive Mii Fighter: How this character should be allowed(Custom: Off)

[Yikarur]

Hello people! Talking about Custom Off:
Mii Fighters have been a rather controversial character in Super Smash Bros. WiiU/3DS.
These characters have so many potential problems because there are literally infinite ways to customize them.

Right now, people are very discouraged to play this character. Why?
Because there is no unified way to play them!
Right now you CANNOT main Mii Fighter, without being scared of losing your main any minute.


Reasons why this character is controversial and not mainable at the moment:
- Mii Fighters can have an offensive look
- Mii Fighters can have different height and different weight, changing frame data and physics.
- You have always access to the additional special moves of any Mii Fighter.

The first 2 point can be ignored easily, because it's logistically not possible to use anything beside the Guest Mii in an offline tournament environment.
The question everyone is asking: Should Mii's be allowed with an adjustable moveset?

Germany uses the following rule
Mii Fighter is allowed. The Mii Fighter has to be created by using one of the six guest Mii's. No further restrictions.

Apex Rules
Mii Fighter only default Mii and 1111

Now I'll try to explain why the Apex Rule was a bad decision by logic and competitive game philosophy and while I prefer the german rule:

Mii Fighter are a custom character. There is no arguing about it. The entire gimmick about this character is that you can play him like you want.

The reason why this character should be allowed with customs are:
- This character is a custom character. You can play him as created. They are intended to work that way.
- With "Customs: off" you can still play the Mii Fighter the way you have created him. Any other restriction would effectively be banning all other moves, because you can use them.
- We don't ban something unless proven broken.

Contra arguments and why they are not feasible:
- Palutena has all customs unlocked from the beginning, so if you allow Mii Fighter with all moves, you should allow Palutena as well.
-> The Rule Paradigm is "Custom Fighter: off". Under this rule Palutena cannot be used with customs. This is the really important part: Mii Fighters are playable as created under "Custom Fighter: off". They are not comparable to any other Custom Moves. They are specifically designed to work that way.
- Other characters cannot use customs as well, why should Mii Fighter be allowed to use their?
-> Again, because they are designed that way. You shouldn't be envy to not be allowed to use custom moves with any other characters. The rules state "Custom Fighters: off" so you are not allowed to use Custom Characters. Because Mii Fighter is a custom character in itself and still usable under Custom Fighters: off, you should accept it as "Because they are intended to work that way".



Most tournament organizers don't really concern themselves on how Mii's work and just use the Apex Ruleset, which has been created in a very early state of the game. People have to thinkover this once more: We need a united rule on Mii's and we should accept how they are designed.

Let's face reality: Most people don't care about Mii's and just use the most comfortable rule, because most of the time it doesn't make a difference because they are almost no Mii Mains in existence. But as long as the rules are not set in stone no one will play Mii Fighter. Vicious Circle !

I really hope my thread reaches out to a lot of people, because they must finally accept that, limiting Mii Fighter to 1111 is against competitive philosophy.

And I hope people are still interested in a Custom: off Metagame at the moment even though Custom Tournament are a common thing nowadays

 

[Raijinken]

The main reason the Apex rule was bad is because it put an arbitrary handicap on what's otherwise a very good character (referring to Brawler specifically), by limiting them to one of the worst possible loadouts.

 

[Greward]

Contrary to popular belief, most players don't want to have more viable characters. Thus they decide to make Miis 1111 so they are unviable tier, or even directly ban them.
It's a shame for Miis, at least I'm happy germany is doing things as they should. We have the same ruleset for Miis in Spain.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Contrary to popular belief, players don't want to have more viable characters.

TIL I'm not a player.

 

[Greward]

TIL I'm not a player.

I was generalizing. Shoulda said "most players" i guess.

 

[InvaderSkoodge]

I think it is important to note that EVO is allowing 18-20(!) variations of sword/gunner and 9 small brawlers, and 4 medium brawlers. This is the right step to take, and will allow some exposure to the potential of the characters. So a big thanks to EVO, because while full custom tournaments may be a lot to handle right now, the longevity of the game could be decided by customs.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Mii Fighter should be played with customs. The custom moves are already unlocked. There is no excuse.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Jokes aside, I don't see why people can't just allow whatever customs you want to use with Mii Fighters? That's kind of entirely the goddamn point of Mii Fighters. That's what their characters ARE. Saying I can't run 1333 Mii Sword is like telling me I'm not allowed to fight using special attacks at all, because it makes it unfair to my opponent who had the kindly mistake of not knowing the opponent he's fighting.

It's like if you banned a character you don't know how to fight because you don't know how to fight him. That's the opposite of what you should be doing.

 

[MrTeddyBear]

All of the Mii Fighters should be able to run move sets other than 1111, with just the default moveset they are very limiting and partly the reason we don't see much of the Miis in the first place.

 

[Togii]

For someone claiming to use "logic and philosophy" you present a very messy and easily debatable argument.

 

[Dicey]

Dedicated brawler main here!

In Illinois, we have guest miis legal under 1111, 2222, and 3333 movesets. There are absolutely no problems whatsoever. I'm sure we'll move on to mixed specials in the near future.

I'm just going to be blunt and say that people that put restrictions on miis are more than likely close-minded.
I honestly have yet to see a legitimate reason for banning these guys. Other than them placing top 8 everywhere. Wait.

 

[Jucchan]

A recent Japanese tournament had a very interesting rule about Miis. Though Mii Gunner and Mii Swordsman can use any set, Mii Brawler can only use one custom move. This means that although 1112 and 1311 are both legal, 1231 is banned.

 

[MoSBanapple]

A recent Japanese tournament had a very interesting rule about Miis. Though Mii Gunner and Mii Swordsman can use any set, Mii Brawler can only use one custom move. This means that although 1112 and 1311 are both legal, 1231 is banned.

Wait, where's the logic in that? Why does Mii Brawler get the short end of the stick?

 

[Mario766]

That actually ****s over Brawler really hard. You either lose Helicopter Kick, or you lose flip jump. I heard Japan also banned Piston Punch.

 

[Jucchan]

Wait, where's the logic in that? Why does Mii Brawler get the short end of the stick?

Perhaps because custom Mii Brawler is considered top tier in Japan. No one uses Gunner or Swordsman, so there's no real downside to letting them use customs, but letting Brawler have full customs makes him good, and many players hate that. Most tournaments with Mii Brawler customs legal end being dominated by Mii Brawler. This has led to many Japanese complaining that using customs on Mii Brawler is "cheating." Frankly, I don't like the idea that three characters get 81 times the move choices of all the others either, but that's just my opinion. The "only one custom" thing is pretty silly though.

That actually ****s over Brawler really hard. You either lose Helicopter Kick, or you lose flip jump. I heard Japan also banned Piston Punch.

I don't think that many tournaments ban Piston Punch anymore, they just outright ban Miis. Mii Brawler players are lucky to even be able to play their main.

 

[Mario766]

A lot of tournaments I see allow 1111 Brawler.

Which is almost the same as not allowing Brawler at all.

 

[Jigglymaster]

1121 isn't TOO bad. Granted you lose the feint jump kick but that is super telegraphed against ppl who know the matchup anyways. I bet head-on-assult could see some use if it combo'd into Helicopter Kick. But yeah even so, if Brawler was restricted to only 1 custom move that would be just be flat out stupid, there'd have to be reasoning behind it. Why wouldn't every other character have this limit?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Hello people! Talking about Custom Off:

I have identified the problem.

I don't wanna be mean here, most of what you're saying is totally on point, and I agree with broad swathes of it. But some parts I felt the need to address. Rest assured, when I talk about really stupid people, I don't mean you.

Mii Fighters have been a rather controversial character in Super Smash Bros. WiiU/3DS.

They're about as controversial as Wuhu Island: really stupid, influential people want them banned/restricted, and everyone else isn't putting up enough of a stink about said stupid people.

Right now you CANNOT main Mii Fighter, without being scared of losing your main any minute.

I have a solution: tell the people responsible for this fear that they're really stupid, and that they should stop being stupid. Particularly TOs.

The first 2 point can be ignored easily, because it's logistically not possible to use anything beside the Guest Mii in an offline tournament environment.

Now that's just straight-up not true. It's like saying "it's logistically not possible to use customs" - that's not true either.

The question everyone is asking: Should Mii's be allowed with an adjustable moveset?

Obviously. As you get into below, the character is inherently custom. Some people argue that 1111 is the "default", but that's not true. The "default", without creating your own character is "there is no Mii". Seriously, they don't even show up on the character select screen until you make them, and claiming at that point that there's any "default", particularly when they are the only characters who are allowed multiple specials in customs off, is just silly.

But there's another important point here, and it's one of the reasons why I find customs off so damn silly: balance. All of the Miis kinda suck with 1111. Brawler becomes barely viable, a character with meh normals and movement and virtually nothing in the realm of viable kill moves; Gunner and Swordsman drop from their respective positions of "mid" and "low" to "completely unplayable". This is particularly interesting because I've heard it said elsewhere that Brawler actually is a soft counter for Diddy Kong. This, of course, presumes that Brawler has access to the moves that, you know, make him good. I find this argument compelling, because we can't really make any statement whatsoever on what constitutes a "default" for the character, so allowing the best possible version* makes for better game balance, more viable characters, and an overall better, more interesting game. So if we're just stuck with arbitrary decisions, this is the right one, because the consequences are awesome. Allowing only 1111 Miis is essentially banning @ Jigglymaster 's main, and I don't think that's a good idea.

*

Germany uses the following rule
Mii Fighter is allowed. The Mii Fighter has to be created by using one of the six guest Mii's. No further restrictions.

(...I.e. not this)

Let's unpack this real quick. We need some kind of standardization, because it's not feasible for everyone to input their own Mii into every WiiU at a tournament - this takes quite a bit of time, and we can't have that between every match. That said, it absolutely is feasible to create one or even three or four particular Miis on each setup at a tournament, then have people create their own Mii fighters using those as a base. Just tell the guys bringing the WiiUs, "Hey, we need you to spend 5-10 minutes before you show up making Miis with this specification". Or just tell them to do it when they set the WiiU up at the tournament. If we can organize every Wii having Project M or a No Tripping code, we can definitely organize every WiiU having a certain specified Mii.

So why does this matter? Because default size is not optimal. For any Mii fighter. In fact, Mii mains have gone through it and have worked out what the real optimal sizes are, and for the most part, Smallest/Lightest covers just about all bases, but it's worthwhile to figure out the optimal size for the Miis, and use that. And it only makes sense! After all, there is no default.

Yes, yes, I know, organizational concerns... Guys, we're not running Evo here. I've been to Neuss a couple of times. It's pretty laidback. You have all the time in the world to set up things like Miis, customs, and such. Really, it's not some herculean, unfeasible task.

And I hope people are still interested in a Custom: off Metagame at the moment even though Custom Tournament are a common thing nowadays

You know how I said earlier that enforcing 1111 Miis leads to a less balanced, less varied, less interesting metagame with less viable characters, and effectively bans people's mains? Yeah, that applies to the whole cast. Particularly characters who rely on certain customs just to do things they direly need - chars like Wii Fit Trainer, Doctor Mario, Bowser, and Donkey Kong - or characters who need a boost and get it through customs - Ike, Game&Watch, Ganondorf, Kirby... There's more than you might think. The decision of the Smashlabs ruleset to flat-out say "customs off" was a really bad one, and the more things like KTAR, Aftershock, NCR, and even Munich Smash Gaming happen (seriously, Twomix's Kirby was awesome), the more and more obvious it'll become that this was a mistake.

 

[Yikarur]

Thanks for your input but please understand that I decided to post this thread under the assumption that a tournament is played with custom fighters set to off. Any discussion related to Custom Fighter: on does not belong here.

I'm very confused about that japanese tournament restricting the brawler. Sounds very arbitrary. Well even japanese TOs cannot be "perfect".

 

[Modkiq]

Personally I never play with Miis. Not because I think they should be banned but because I just don't like the way they play. As long as you create the Miis out of the pre-made guest Miis I think they should be allowed in tournaments etc. I have not experienced anything that makes me think the Miis are broken in any way. I have never seen a tier list saying that the Miis are in the top tiers, so why would they not be allowed?
In my opinion, Miis should be allowed with any moves, as long as they are created from the Guest Miis.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Thanks for your input but please understand that I decided to post this thread under the assumption that a tournament is played with custom fighters set to off. Any discussion related to Custom Fighter: on does not belong here.

Hey man, I'm just going to the base of the problem here. As to what you said, yeah, you're pretty much spot-on, I just disagree about the issue of size. Default fighter is not optimal, and it's not too unreasonable to institute an "optimal" alternative.

 

[Malkasaur]

Here's how I think it should work: For each class, there is a single Mii. That Mii gets its specials changed by the player who is using them. Whenever that player leaves the setup and someone else wants to use different specials, they just simply change them. Simple.

 

[Skarfelt]

Now, I love playing Brawler and Gunner and the Miis in general are really fun characters. However, this argument for or against Miis having custom moves is more based off semantics rather than anything else. You can play them with their custom moves with customs off, that's completely true, but I don't understand how it's fair to just straight up give more tools to a character because they're... inherently custom? Whether or not we agree that "the point of the character is to be customised", we don't just give three characters in the cast access to all their custom moves and nobody else that opportunity simply because of the way they're unlocked for play. If we want to talk semantics, with customs off, amiibo also get all their custom moves simple because you have to go into that screen in order to set them up but I don't see how just giving one character more stuff than another character is fair. The only argument for it is "their 1111 sets suck" - which I wouldn't argue against for a second - but other characters have that problem too. Palutena, Ganondorf, Ike all have much better customs or just downright useless 1111 sets but they don't get that luxury due to the game being coded in a way to streamline the experience for Mii gameplay. This isn't about being close minded, this isn't about wanting to kill the competitive development of this game or whatever other petty insults we're going to fling at each other for not agreeing, this is about all the characters having equal opportunities and options. Is it fair that Diddy Kong is just straight up better than Zelda? No, not really. Is it fair that my opponent has access to 12 B moves while I could have access to 12 but I've been limited to 4 due to the ruleset which ignores them? No, not really.

 

[Doruge]

This is about all the characters having equal opportunities and options. Is it fair that Diddy Kong is just straight up better than Zelda? No, not really. Is it fair that my opponent has access to 12 B moves while I could have access to 12 but I've been limited to 4 due to the ruleset which ignores them? No, not really.

Then by your logic we should ban Diddy Kong for having more "opportunities and options" than other characters.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Now, I love playing Brawler and Gunner and the Miis in general are really fun characters. However, this argument for or against Miis having custom moves is more based off semantics rather than anything else. You can play them with their custom moves with customs off, that's completely true, but I don't understand how it's fair to just straight up give more tools to a character because they're... inherently custom? Whether or not we agree that "the point of the character is to be customised", we don't just give three characters in the cast access to all their custom moves and nobody else that opportunity simply because of the way they're unlocked for play.

Except that the only indication we have that those are even "custom" is that they're not in the 1111 slots. We need to create the Mii. The fact that you can craft the Mii with 81 different configurations does nothing to negate the fact that you need to create a configuration, and at that point, 1111 is just as arbitrary as 2122 or 3311. So how do we determine which to use? Trick question - we don't. We allow Miis to be made according to whatever set of customs the user wants, because that's how the character was designed. And personally, I could give less of a crap about it being "unfair" to the rest of the cast. In my region, we play with customs anyways, which resolves the entire conversation and makes a whole lot of things a whole lot more simple.

 

[Skarfelt]

Like I said, I'm not really too concerned with the definition of custom and whether or not the Miis' moveset qualifies as custom or not, I'm more concerned with three characters having more B moves than any other character.

Then by your logic we should ban Diddy Kong for having more "opportunities and options" than other characters.

That's not what I was trying to imply. I didn't say we should ban the Miis because they had more options than everyone else, I said we should just... not give them those options. I mean, I can use comparisons and explanations all day but just straight up giving some characters additional options but not giving those same options to other characters isn't "fair" as competition goes. You can't give Diddy's strengths to Zelda. You can give them both the ability to use custom moves and you can also take away their ability to use custom moves. This idea of giving the Miis those additional options but not everyone else in the game in a format where nobody gets those options isn't equal.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

EDIT: forum bugged up

 

[Doruge]

You are not giving Miis additional options. They ALREADY HAVE those options. By restricting them to 1111 you are BANNING options that they already have by default. This is no different than banning default moves for other characters.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I suggest banning Mii fighters from the non custom metagame. Also ban Diddy, and Sonic. And Shieks needles cause they are lame. Also call it scrub metagame.

Furthermore exile Xyro to Svalbard and make him run his scrub tournaments there with polars bears.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

For someone claiming to use "logic and philosophy" you present a very messy and easily debatable argument.

And for someone who knows exactly what he is saying regardless of this you sure aren't helping.

 

[Xyro77]

I suggest banning Mii fighters from the non custom metagame. Also ban Diddy, and Sonic. And Shieks needles cause they are lame. Also call it scrub metagame.

Furthermore exile Xyro to Svalbard and make him run his scrub tournaments there with polars bears.

What are you talking about. My events have huge numbers with very good players.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

What are you talking about. My events have huge numbers with very good players.

Xyro confirmed for namesearching. Can you link me to a handful of your events? I have a feeling he's talking about rulesets...

 

[Xyro77]

Xyro confirmed for namesearching. Can you link me to a handful of your events? I have a feeling he's talking about rulesets...

Front page of the Houston Thread that i created. It has a list of all the events the city of Houston has had as well as our best players and upcoming events

http://smashboards.com/threads/hous...ril-25th-2015-pre-register-online-now.344694/

 

[Nysyr]

Seems like this has been beat to death, but whatever I'll bite.

Restricting the moveset options goes against what is capable of being done ingame. By restricting the options with customs off, you basically neuter the character.

As for size, I personally think they should be restricted to default. Ingame you can only make a default guest mii to use, and it makes it easier to incorporate the miis. Also, the different Mii sizes all have different frame-data and it is impractical to tell what their frames will be like with a custom size. For the sake of consistency, default for these reasons should be the only option for size.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Front page of the Houston Thread that i created. It has a list of all the events the city of Houston has had as well as our best players and upcoming events

http://smashboards.com/threads/hous...ril-25th-2015-pre-register-online-now.344694/

...Did you seriously run a tournament with Wii Fit Studio and Coliseum legal and striking from 17 stages? That incredible. How did that go, by the way?

 

[1FC0]

These characters have so many potential problems because there are literally infinite ways to customize them.

How so? Can the 3DS/WiiU recognize sizes to infinite precision? I think that the number of ways to customize them is large but not infinite.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

Legalize Mii's

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Seriously. I just got done playing a long set using the 50-50 1111 rules for Miis and lost nearly every single game. Admittedly my opponent is better than I am, but wow. So many of my deaths were due to 1111 being terrible on all three Miis. This cannot be how Sakurai expected these characters to work.

 

[nodle]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Arguing that Mii's should be granted access to their full range of specials when other characters don't on the basis of the UI is stupid. If your claim is true and Miis are inherently custom then, with customs off, Miis shouldn't be allowed at all. The only fair way to navigate this question is too simply say that customs should be allowed.

That said, I would definitely support allowing Mii's to use their customs in customs off game tournaments because the Mii's are trash without them. We don't need any more justification than that. If a more diverse meta is what you want, then the only justification you should need is that by allowing customs for Mii's you are adding another competitive character to the game, increasing tournament diversity.

 

[FSLink]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Arguing that Mii's should be granted access to their full range of specials when other characters don't on the basis of the UI is stupid. If your claim is true and Miis are inherently custom then, with customs off, Miis shouldn't be allowed at all. The only fair way to navigate this question is too simply say that customs should be allowed.

It's not really stupid. The game is programmed to let them have access to all their specials clearly as an exception. Tourney mode even has a separate toggle for Mii Fighters.

I do agree that it's a matter of whether we want "custom characters" or not. I feel they add an interesting dynamic to the game since they have unique movesets, and therefore they should be allowed by how they are designed. I've said this many times on this forum, but they aren't broken, they don't cause any burden to TOs or players to implement, and the game supports them with their full movesets from the get-go, why not give it a go?