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Community Patch Project

Ray_Kalm

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And from a design standpoint, Ganondorf has less options out of getting a grab in this game than he does in any other game. If he decides to keep the grab as pathetic as it is now, then there should be more options out of it. I am a game designer as well Shaya, I understand keeping the creator's intent as well. His intent however is not in line with the properties he gave it. Either the grab needs changing (MANY things were changed in this game that were never changed before).
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. Ganondorf's d-throw is an incredible throw. Here's why. It can be comboed from at early percentage, and higher on, you can bait out opponent's airdoges and jumps for a strong Ganon punish. During certain percentages, a buffered fair from dthrow is a true combo if you space well and hit with the tip (and this does kill, this is somewhat comparable with Diddy's dthrow to uair).

His fthrow and bthrow were his two best throws in Brawl, simply because of damage input and kill potential. This game, dthrow takes the spot, and his fthrow & bthrow are still better uses in many circumstances (a rough 15-16% damage with pummel > fthrow, and a late game kill with bthrow).
 
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KuroganeHammer

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ZELDA'S EVERYTHING.

But mostly Usmash and Fsmash not having people randomly fall out of it. This has been a problem since Melee and is incredibly poor design. Why should Zelda players be punished for landing a move?

Phantom should be storable like Samus Charge Shot. Currently because of this moves 8 thousand frames startup and 6 thousand frame ending lag, the move is incredibly pointless.

Fix Din's Fire or remove it. See Phantom except even more useless. I can't think of a channeled projectile in this game that is useful at all.

Speed up her grab. For a supposedly defensive character, there is no real reason for her to have a 12 frame grab when Sheik gets a frame 7 one.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Instead of quoting and replying to everything that has been posted I'm going to throw out one general remark first: every suggestion that requests multi-hit moves that don't properly connect to get fixed has virtually a 100% chance of being accepted. Since these things are undisputedly perceived as designing errors there's no point in having a discussion about it. So don't be confused if I don't address such suggestions anymore in the future. I'm not ignoring them, I simply choose to not address every single one of them when it's clear that nobody in their right mind would disagree with such a change.

This also goes for posts that suggest fixing moves that are unsafe on hit at certain %.

:059:
 

DunnoBro

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:4duckhunt:

Make the separate hits of his fsmash and upsmash overlap more. It's ridiculous how often people get out of them if it's not spaced just right with them at just the right percent/weight/angle. Especially smaller characters.

I think they fixed the angle of upsmash to hit more often but it is still inconsistent.

Downsmash is inconsistent as hell but not sure how overlapping hitboxes will help fix it.

This is especially an issue with his lack of kill options. I'm not sure if it's intentional, like "The shooter missed" but it's really dumb.
 

~ Gheb ~

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A few things have been mentioned by a couple of people randomly or I have forgotten about them earlier. I read through it again and will take the following things into consideration:

- Luigi down B inputs
- Inclusion of a survival mechanic like DI or VI
- Fixing the C-Stick so it works like it used to do in Brawl
- Remove the option of teching spikes / meteors onto the ground

These things are all not completely accepted yet but they will definitely be discussed among the community.

Wasn't this done on purpose though? Compared to the Ganoncide, the Bowsercide was much easier to pull off and had no risks whatsoever, so Nintendo nerfed the move in the recent patch by making you and your opponent die at the same time/making you die first. This was intentional.
I don't know nor do I care whether it was done on purpose or not. My point is that all suicide moves should lead to consistent endgame results and should not be a coin toss. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that it's not a very competitive thing if the result of a match is a coin toss.

Wii Swordfigther & Kirby post
Kirby is currently considered to be one of the weaker characters mainly by process of elimination. Has anything happened in this game's meta so far that indicates that Kirby is a fundamentally flawed character or does he just happen to be a bit worse than most others? So far I have not seen a good reason to assume that it's the former, rather than the latter. Maybe at a later point somebody will be able to point out a very specific character-related problem to Kirby that needs to be fixed but right now we'll just have to live with the fact that he is considered weaker than other characters for whatever reason. Calling for straight-up buffs would be premature and unwise in my opinion.

The Mii Swordfighter will be arguably the hardest character to fix because it seems like there's so much wrong with the character that he might possibly need to be completely overhauled in order to even work somewhat reasonably. Coupled with the fact that he has a virtually non-existent playerbase I'm pretty sure that he will be the hardest nut to crack. I honestly can't answer your questions right now. All I can tell you is that this is going to be a long-term project and that we have plenty of time to come up with suggestions on what we can do with this characters and review them from time to time.

Charizard stuff
The only thing I have issues with is the suggested change for bair. I know this is probably not what you want to hear but the fact that the risk/reward ratio of that move is supposedly worse than that of other characters is rather irrelevant. I might be wrong here but I think the reward for that move is still nothing to shrug off and there are moves out there with a worse risk/reward ratio that we will likely not touch either.
The rest of your suggestions are fair and will be accepted.

Meta Knight stuff
Totally agreed on fixing his hitboxes. That isn't really up for debate anyway as nobody will disagree.

Dimensional Cape is a very good recovery move and a useful tool to escape juggles and landing traps. That makes the moves good enough to not warrant any buff. While MK seems to be one of the characters that could use some buffs and fixes more than other characters I think there are other moves that we should look at first.

Stuff about consistent graphical indication of death
Entirely understandable - I hate inconsistency as much as everybody else does - but hard to actually make happen. Since the inclusion of a machanic akin to DI or VI has been suggested it might be impossible to make this graphical indication 100% consistent and suggesting to remove this visual effect entirely would be straigh-up disrespectful and something I would not be willing to do. So for now we'll have to wait and see on how discussion about a possible inclusion of a survival mechanic goes before we can tackle this issue.

Mario stuff
I'm very open and sympathetic to your suggestions because I very much agree with what you say but you have to understand that I can't just agree with buffing a character on what is considered to be his main forte to begin with - his combo game. At this point there are too many people vouching for Mario to be actually decent or even good in this game to confidently give Mario a buff like that. Feel free to get back at me with this at a later point. Right now, I think it'd be better to let some time pass and see how this character's metagame envolves and whether people start to agree that Mario is as bad as you think he is or not. Right now the only buff I could bring myself to agree to give Mario would be for his unfairly poor recovery.

DK, Diddy, global stuff
DK changes have been already suggested and are accepeted.
Diddy Kong uair will be gone into more detail for sure.
Adding a mechanic like DI or VI is taken into consideration and will be discussed as well.

These are all taken into consideration, especially the ones involving Jigglypuff and have a very high chance of making it.

Din's Fire
I'm very open to the suggestion of removing that mechanic. I've always wondered why it's there in the first place and think it's pretty superfluous. Not something I can just guarantee you to make the "final" suggestion on the spot but defenitvely something that deserves some thorough discussion.

Phantom should be storable like Samus Charge Shot. Currently because of this moves 8 thousand frames startup and 6 thousand frame ending lag, the move is incredibly pointless.

[...]

Speed up her grab. For a supposedly defensive character, there is no real reason for her to have a 12 frame grab when Sheik gets a frame 7 one.
re: Phantom; I've seen Nairo use this move to cover the ledge in defensive and offensive positions. I'd definitely need other competitive and competent Zelda players to back you up on the claim that the move is so bad that it needs to be buffed. And even then I'd like to hear why being able to store it would be a better option than to change it's frame data or knockback. I fear that being able to store the move could make more powerful than intended since it doesn't just throw out a hitbox but also an additional hurtbox.

re: grab; Same as above. Zelda has legitimiate combos out of grab or at least solid followups even at decently high percent. If her grab range is among the better ones in this game then I think the reward of landing a grab on the opponent would justify the higher start-up ... though 12 frames sounds remarably high, I'll give you that. But even if we ended up cutting some of the start-up lag then it won't be by that much. Maybe 2 frames or so?

DHD stuff
Is this simply a matter of his multi-hit smashes not connecting consistently? If so, consider this accepted.

:059:
 

ChronoPenguin

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In reference to Kirby in particular I'm not calling him the weakest character or anything.
I'm blatantly pointing out that Inhale loses place to Jumping inhale as a result of its Risk/Reward being unreasonable, and this is partially because of an attribute one has other the other. Despite all things otherwise being the same both are valuable for different, reasons that specific attribute is part of what keeps Inhale in general as an unreasonable move. It's QoL that has balance implications that need not be unreasonable given the value inhale *should* intrinsically have to the character, given that without it he is devoid of his main gimmick. It certainly should be practical and its current ending lag is appropriate given the power he gains from it so he should be punished upon whiff. So even if we disregard Jumping inhale completely, inhale itself is not in proportion to his kit or practical to his matchups, and even in his small tournament footage, and presence at locals this is damn obvious as Kirbys in general avoid the move for numerous reasons. If we're talking developer intent do you personally believe that Inhale is operating as expected with its multitude of faults?

After all I agree, we should not aim to make everyone top tier. However if there's a clear anomaly in performance for a kit, why would you not suggest an improvement so long as the character does not show sufficient threat to deem it dangerous or unhealthy to the games balance.
 
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_Malal

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Oh I forgot.

You can't extremehog on the right side of stages.

Lucario's UpB on stage going to the left edge and holding down will autosnap

Doing this on the right edge...won't

It's been like this since 1.00 3DS. Why.

Both should either work or not work at all.
 
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KuroganeHammer

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I don't see what nairo has to do with phantom at all.

He used it well? Gj, I landed Din's Fire last month iirc, give me a medal.

Regarding grab, Sheik, Rosalina, Diddy, Ness all have better followups from grab, there's no reason a non tether (her range was nerfed) to be 12 frames.
 

LimitCrown

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The main drawback of Jumping Inhale compared to the regular Inhale is that the stars Kirby spits out when he exhales an opponent don't do any damage to others. In 1v1 matches, this isn't noticeable, but in free-for-all matches, it is.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Going to add this into the OP for the time being & answering new posts after that:


Up to discussion:

Global:
*Remove the ability to tech spikes when grounded
*Fix the c-stick's mechanics to make it work like it did in previous smash games
*Add a mechanic akin to DI or VI for survival purposes

Diddy Kong:
*Adjustment to up air

Donkey Kong:
*Remove the landing pose on upB [DK flexes his muscles]

Ganondorf changes:
*http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-project-ganondorf.380759/

Ike changes:
*Give dtilt a slightly more horizontal trajectory
*Change jab2's damage from 3%->4%
*Align hitboxes correctly for fair and jab3
*Add a sourspot hitbox to dair, possibly lower damage by 1%
*Increase uair damage from 11->13% and reduce base knockback

Luigi changes:
*Decrease the amount of inputs needed to gain height while using downB

Samus changes:
*Jab combo doesn't work reliably

Zelda:
*Aerial Din's fire should not send her into freefall state



Accepted Suggestions:

Global:
*If a match ends through a suicide move - Flying Slam, Flame Choke, Chomp, Inhale and others - the endgame result should be consistent and not random
*KOs off the top always result in star or screen KOs as long as it isn't the last stock or there's more than 15-30 seconds on the timer

Charizard:
*Increase the hitstun of jab 1 to make sure it always links into jab 2
*Fix the hitboxes of upsmash and up B custom #2 to make sure that all the hits link properly

Donkey Kong:
*Using Giant Punch against a shield next to the edge causes DK to die. Add the ability to grab the ledge to prevent this from happening
*Sourspot sideB and ftilt at low % are unsafe on hit. Increase base knockback to make sure DK doesn't get punished for landing a hit
*Fsmash whiffs against very close opponents. Either fix the hitbox or the animation of the move so they match
*DKs jab combo doesn't work until ~25% unless you hit the opponent with the hip.Needs more base knockback to fix this and less knockback growth to link reliably at higher percent
*DK's punch charging is bugged. It adds stacks to the charge at the beginning of the next swing instead of at the end of the swing

Jigglypuff:
*Fix rollout so Jigglypuff doesn't enter that weird tumble state after successfully connecting the move [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UXCfDshKIc]

Kirby:
*Opponents that get their abilities copied by Kirby should be put into hitstun. Some characters get guarantee hits on Kirby for getting swallowed

Meta Knight:
*Fix the animations of Meta Knight's sword attacks so they match their actual hitbox size

Peach:
*Adjust Dash Attack to make sure all hits connect reliably

Wii Fit Trainer:
*Grab whiffs against small character. Increase the grab hitbox or position it lower to prevent this from happening

Zelda:
*Fix the hitstun of fsmash and usmash to make sure all hits connect reliably

:059:
 

Man Li Gi

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Gonna say some things about :4dk:.

Big O said some things I like, but since we need such thing as balance, I will put some possible buffs on :4dk:.

*Up B needs to be AC or lagless when perfectly landed as it makes :4dk: already exposed body and poor defensive options worse without it. The move needs to deal heavy damage like it used to (36% if all hit in Melee and Brawl). As a tradeoff, has an easier time to SDI out of it and the last hit doesn't KO as much (maybe an increase on the beginning of the move though).

*The entirety of his smash attacks should be buffed in power. As a heavyweight and a heavy hitter in general, his smash attacks feel a lot weaker without rage on. I have to wait till ~115% to kill Mario when I'm at 0% with uncharged Dsmash. For move that has so much endlag, it should able to kill earlier. Ness's Dsmash horizontally kills at 110%.....his bat... don't get me started.

*Tilts, the most used moves in :4dk: arsenal. They reign on the fact range hurts the opponent. Why are the best damaging and killing (utilt specifically) all lined up with the closest hitbox? Counter intuitive at best.

*Dtilt should have an increased trip rate, but lower BK, and higher KBG. The decreased damage was enough to warrant this. This move has been a lackluster poking tool since 64 and the fact it still ain't great in terms of range...

*Utilt still can't hit from the front, why? Pretty much all of :4dk: forward facing attacks have some crippling flaw to them (jabs don't always connect, grab is garbage, ftilt is easy to punish, Side B is side b, upB is best as a punish, downB is for ground people, dtilt is the only good one really).

*Nair. Unsafe in general. Comes out frame 10 (not an OoS) and hitboxes that are far too small for his size. DK should extend his arms more, thus increasing the range while simultaneously increasing the hurtboxes.
 
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RODO

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Going to add this into the OP for the time being & answering new posts after that:


Up to discussion:

Global:
*Remove the ability to tech spikes when grounded
*Fix the c-stick's mechanics to make it work like it did in previous smash games
*Add a mechanic akin to DI or VI for survival purposes

Diddy Kong:
*Adjustment to up air

Donkey Kong:
*Remove the landing pose on upB [DK flexes his muscles]

Ganondorf changes:
*http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-project-ganondorf.380759/

Ike changes:
*Give dtilt a slightly more horizontal trajectory
*Change jab2's damage from 3%->4%
*Align hitboxes correctly for fair and jab3
*Add a sourspot hitbox to dair, possibly lower damage by 1%
*Increase uair damage from 11->13% and reduce base knockback

Luigi changes:
*Decrease the amount of inputs needed to gain height while using downB

Samus changes:
*Jab combo doesn't work reliably

Zelda:
*Aerial Din's fire should not send her into freefall state



Accepted Suggestions:

Global:
*If a match ends through a suicide move - Flying Slam, Flame Choke, Chomp, Inhale and others - the endgame result should be consistent and not random
*KOs off the top always result in star or screen KOs as long as it isn't the last stock or there's more than 15-30 seconds on the timer

Charizard:
*Increase the hitstun of jab 1 to make sure it always links into jab 2
*Fix the hitboxes of upsmash and up B custom #2 to make sure that all the hits link properly

Donkey Kong:
*Using Giant Punch against a shield next to the edge causes DK to die. Add the ability to grab the ledge to prevent this from happening
*Sourspot sideB and ftilt at low % are unsafe on hit. Increase base knockback to make sure DK doesn't get punished for landing a hit
*Fsmash whiffs against very close opponents. Either fix the hitbox or the animation of the move so they match
*DKs jab combo doesn't work until ~25% unless you hit the opponent with the hip.Needs more base knockback to fix this and less knockback growth to link reliably at higher percent
*DK's punch charging is bugged. It adds stacks to the charge at the beginning of the next swing instead of at the end of the swing

Jigglypuff:
*Fix rollout so Jigglypuff doesn't enter that weird tumble state after successfully connecting the move [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UXCfDshKIc]

Kirby:
*Opponents that get their abilities copied by Kirby should be put into hitstun. Some characters get guarantee hits on Kirby for getting swallowed

Meta Knight:
*Fix the animations of Meta Knight's sword attacks so they match their actual hitbox size

Peach:
*Adjust Dash Attack to make sure all hits connect reliably

Wii Fit Trainer:
*Grab whiffs against small character. Increase the grab hitbox or position it lower to prevent this from happening

Zelda:
*Fix the hitstun of fsmash and usmash to make sure all hits connect reliably

:059:
I still feel like Samus has much bigger problems than her jab 2 not connecting reliably. Hell they could keep it that way if they fixed other aspects of her game imo.

Also, isn't DI in the game already?? And I thought they did adjust Meta Knights animations?
 

Cheezy23

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Entirely understandable - I hate inconsistency as much as everybody else does - but hard to actually make happen. Since the inclusion of a machanic akin to DI or VI has been suggested it might be impossible to make this graphical indication 100% consistent and suggesting to remove this visual effect entirely would be straigh-up disrespectful and something I would not be willing to do. So for now we'll have to wait and see on how discussion about a possible inclusion of a survival mechanic goes before we can tackle this issue.
A completely valid point, I hadn't thought of any of that.

I don't want to remove it entirely, sorry if that's what it sounded like. I agree, it would be a waste and a disrespect.

I think a way to make it more consistent is to possibly cap it at a certain %.

I'm not a game designer by any means, but from what I gather, the effect happens when the game thinks the hit will send the opponent far enough off screen to lose a stock/point. The basic issue with this is that the game doesn't take into consideration double jumps, DI, VI, or what have you.

I'd like to think that the engine is quick enough to determine a lot of things on the fly. (Keep in mind as I say the next few things that I have no idea how game development works :grin:) So assuming the engine is fast enough, I'd suggest something akin to this:

The moment the attack starts, the game calculates based on the % that the opponent is at how far the attack will send them. Not when the attack starts charging (IE every smash attack) but when the startup begins. If the attack connects, the game uses the calculated Hitstun to determine whether or not the attack will kill the opponent. If it will kill, then the graphic plays when the attack connects. If it won't, no graphic.


Obviously hard to program, would probably take a while, but I can see this game being able to handle it. Certainly wouldn't fix the issue entirely, and I agree it may be impossible to solve, and if so I'll just eat it and move on. I'd like to hear about the idea of a survival mechanic though, what would that entail?
 

LimitCrown

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I still feel like Samus has much bigger problems than her jab 2 not connecting reliably. Hell they could keep it that way if they fixed other aspects of her game imo.

Also, isn't DI in the game already?? And I thought they did adjust Meta Knights animations?
The animations and htiboxes for Meta Knight's up aerial and down aerial were adjusted.
 

Ranias

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The Mii Swordfighter will be arguably the hardest character to fix because it seems like there's so much wrong with the character that he might possibly need to be completely overhauled in order to even work somewhat reasonably. Coupled with the fact that he has a virtually non-existent playerbase I'm pretty sure that he will be the hardest nut to crack. I honestly can't answer your questions right now. All I can tell you is that this is going to be a long-term project and that we have plenty of time to come up with suggestions on what we can do with this characters and review them from time to time.
I think the first step that the design team could do is to include Mii Fighters as a choice in Online vs. Anybody.

If not many people have played as/against the Mii Fighters, then how can we know how to fix them?

If customization is a problem in that regard, maybe a "customization mode" could be added to For Fun, and a "custom moves only" mode could be added to For Glory.
 
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BJN39

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Since I have been scrutinizing Zelda's data for my compiled data thread, I have noticed many of the little unusual issues present in her moves, and I will highlight some changes that would fundamentally help Zelda competitively, without the need for immediate reversion for being silly.

* The most obvious change, removal of special fall from airborne Din's fire, is already on the OP list, so I not going to delve into this one. Yeah, this is a really big one though.


* Another very important change that many Zelda observers know of is Fsmash and Usmash having badly tuned loop hit-boxes. Even after the THIRD iteration of Zelda, these moves are consistently inconsistent. Remedying Fsmash appears to be far more simple: Lower the angles of Fsmash's two hit-boxes of the four loop hits to slight negative angles.

Their current angles are 60 for the inner linking hit-box, and 160 for the outer linking hit-box. Altering these angles to roughly -10 (350) for the inner one, and 190 (-10 inwards) for the outer one. This itself would lend a huge helping hand for landing it versus an airborne opponent, as many opponents fall out if it behind Zelda because the move's angle is too high.

Fixing Usmash's loop hit-boxes appears to be a whole different beast. I am currently unsure of exactly how the data could be altered to remedy the issue, but simply, they need to be adjusted to improve the multi-hits. One oddball design to note though, is that the two side-most loop hit-boxes BOTH use the same angle. Which, for connecting purposes, appears to make no sense at all.

It should be noted that SDI is NOT the big reason these moves don't connect consistently this time around. It's the angles and placements of the hit-boxes themselves.

EDIT : Oop, I see your multi-hit post @ ~ Gheb ~ ~ Gheb ~ shrinking to aim significance at the other notes
.


* Another issue is Phantom Slash. The move is VERY stiff for being considered a projectile, and it lacks in a lot of places. You cannot cancel the changing animation with ANY action, making you a sitting duck, you cannot HOLD a fully charged Phantom and release it later like many charge shots, and the charging and endlag animations are just far too long to get any decent use aside very rare cases.

Going within the bounds of what I believe Sakurai might do, here's how I'd tackle it:

Note : I simply don't see being able to hold a fully charged Phantom as something Sakurai and co would ever do. Even if we like it. So I don't include it.

1. Decrease the amount of time it takes to charge up the Phantom some. This would allow Zeldas to get it out there for a ranged Attack more often, or allow them to more often use the great 2 second weak projectile shielding capabilities the fully charged one has.

2. Add an IASA window somewhere during the end lag of the release animation. It is just. Too. Slow. Even just a few frames less of endlag could do wonders in making it feel a little smoother, and far more useable.
Actually, I'd also say that this change only be added to the grounded version of the move. It would be better if it still had a slight endlag risk if used over the edge to keep a consistent feeling, like many specials that are similar to it without special fall, such as Pit's Upperdash Arm, or Palutena's Explosive Flame.

3. Clean up the 0% pushing hit-boxes present on the first frames of all Phantom charges' releases. (If you didn't know, there are damage-less hit-boxes that provide that push it can give at higher charges upon release.) Moving them back a little, or increasing their size I believe, would clear out that really tacky blind spot at point blank. It just shouldn't be there. So basically, remove the blindspot in front of her the move has.

4. Remove the ability to reflect the Phantom! It is widely accepted as a pointless and unhelpful design by every Zelda player. Is there more that needs to be said about it?


~ So, yeah. Here are some changes I wouldn't mind seeing happen to improve Zelda competitively, and just for fun as well.

EDIT :

* I remembered I'd like to add the issue of Zelda's sourspot Lightning Kicks. I feel there should be a slight KB improvement to these hit-boxes to at LEAST remove the ability for your opponent to instantly punish you 90% of the time. I know it's technically a SOURSPOT, but do you see any other sourspot that it is more disadvantageous to LAND it, than miss it?

I'd say a damage buff with a slight increase in Base KB would do the trick in making it less so as it is mentioned above. Right now, the BKB on the sourspot is 5, while the damage is 4%. I'd say a BKB increase bringing it to 20, and a damage increase from 4%, to 5% would do the trick nicely, while retaining the being of a sourspot.


Speed up her grab. For a supposedly defensive character, there is no real reason for her to have a 12 frame grab when Sheik gets a frame 7 one.
Her grab actually grabs on frame 10. While still the second slowest (Or possibly THE slowest. Is Greninja's considered a tether, or a standard grab?) non-tether grab period, it's baby steps. Baby steps. ;P
 
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KuroganeHammer

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Her grab actually grabs on frame 10. While still the second slowest (Or possibly THE slowest. Is Greninja's considered a tether, or a standard grab?) non-tether grab period, it's baby steps. Baby steps. ;P
11 then. Asynchronous timers show instructions of when to do something during an animation.
 

Aunt Jemima

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A
Kirby is currently considered to be one of the weaker characters mainly by process of elimination. Has anything happened in this game's meta so far that indicates that Kirby is a fundamentally flawed character or does he just happen to be a bit worse than most others? So far I have not seen a good reason to assume that it's the former, rather than the latter. Maybe at a later point somebody will be able to point out a very specific character-related problem to Kirby that needs to be fixed but right now we'll just have to live with the fact that he is considered weaker than other characters for whatever reason. Calling for straight-up buffs would be premature and unwise in my opinion.
Actually, Kirby is a bit of a flawed character. He's not horrible (I actually think he's quite good in this game), but he has some... problems.

Kirby is bad against disjointed hitboxes, projectiles, fast characters, and heavy weights. Due to Kirby's lack of range on his moves, especially with the fact that his feet were halved in size, he has quite a bit of trouble against disjointed hitboxes, whether it's a character like Marth and Lucina who carry them at all times, or a character like Pac-Man who only has a couple disjointed hitboxes. Kirby has trouble with projectiles as he's one of the slowest characters in the game, whether on the ground or in the air. Characters who can spam projectiles are hard to deal with while playing Kirby, as you can never actually touch them. Faster characters, such as Greninja and Sheik are considered some of the worst characters for Kirby to go against. He's so slow that he can never catch them if they're running away, as shown by the E3 Invitational Grand Finales, they can easily chase Kirby around the map as he tries to run away or protect himself, and most of the faster characters come with a projectile, so they can camp out Kirby. Kirby is the third lightest character in the game, so the heavier characters can easily kill Kirby at lower percents. He has horrible troubles killing opponents, and usually has to wait until 120%+ just to kill the medium weights. As @ Asdioh Asdioh has said multiple times, fighting against heavy weights as Kirby is as if you have one less stock than them at all times.

Along with that, Kirby has no priority on his moves, and as none of his moves (other than his punishable, horrible special moves) are disjointed, he can easily get punished for landing a move. Maybe it's just me, but this is pretty stupid: http://youtu.be/yquMqKNNuS4?t=6m23s. This ruins most of Kirby's combo game, which is one of the things he's good at. He can start a combo, but easily be taken out of it because he has no priority. Along with that, despite having some nice combos, Kirby has so much endlag on his moves that he's one of the easiest characters to shield grab in the game. While playing against @GrnFzzTgr's Kirby while I'm playing Robin, all I need to do is sit on a ledge and shield his approaches. The easy solution for this is to use Kirby's dash grab, but, like most other characters, Kirby has no grab range to actually help him out.

There's a LOT more that's bad about Kirby, but those are some of the more glaring things.

---

There's a multitude of things that could be done to fix these problems, but of course, Kirby must still have weaknesses.

Here's a couple things I personally think should be changed or altered.

Inhale Changes - Less Endlag, Cannot be Shielded

In his own games, the only way Kirby can actually put up a fight is by copying his opponents abilities and using them to a greater extent. Now, this also carries over to Smash Bros. titles as Kirby's main gimmick. Some match-ups are greatly changed by using the opponents ability, such as Shulk or Villager. The biggest problem, though, is that Inhale is one of Kirby's most punishable moves. In Smash 4, for some unknown reason, Inhale was given EVEN MORE endlag than before, making it even less safe than before. Due to how laggy and punishable the move is, the safest place to use the move is while somebody is on the ledge. Even with that, both a ledge aerial and ledge hop will beat the move. To help with this, the move should have decreased endlag. The fact that Kirby can barely use his main gimmick without getting punished severely for it completely ruins some possible MU advantages. Another change that should be made is Inhale against shields. Despite the move being a Command Grab, opponents can sit right next to Kirby as he's doing the move while sitting in their shields without being sucked in. How in the world does a vacuum-like whirlwind get stopped by a little round bubble? Due to the fact that the move is shieldable, this makes shields even more effective to counter Kirby.

Air Speed Increase

Despite being talked about as an "aerial master" in all of the games tips and guides, Kirby isn't good in the air. He has nice aerial moves to help him with his multiple jumps, but he can't catch anybody in the air. His air speed is atrocious, and is one of the worsts in the game. The only characters who have a slower airspeed than Kirby is Luigi, Ganondorf, and DeDeDe. Luigi has aerials that combo straight into each other while inflicting tons of damage, such as F-Air, along with good priority on some of them. Ganondorf has strong, bulky aerial moves that are bound to send the opponent away from him so he can't be punished. King DeDeDe has an enormous hammer, which covers a huge spot in front of him... and he's incredibly fat. Kirby's aerials have no follow ups or combos, have no range, and are incredibly punishable. Being an air-based character, not being able to properly maneuver in the air completely hinders his potential while in the air.

B-Air Landing Lag Decreased

One change that has affected several Kirby mains and made the move far less useful than before is the landing lag increase on Kirby's B-Air. Previously, Kirby's B-Air was considered his best aerial move, having fast startup, low endlag, and barely any landing lag. Compared to his B-Air, his other aerial moves were useless. However, in this game, Kirby's amazing B-Air now has horrible endlag, having the same amount of landing lag as his D-Air does. This removes the purpose of this move, as now it is incredibly punishable. Along with that, the fact that the knockback on B-Air was nerfed doesn't help either, as it has trouble killing. To help Kirby, B-Air should be restored to it's former glory by decreasing it's ending lag. Of course, to keep developer changes in-tact, and to make it so the move isn't generally overpowered, the knockback reduction could easily stay the same.

Copy Ability Changes - Custom Move, System Change (everything in this column is likely not going to happen, but it's worth mentioning)

As stated before, Inhale has several problems with actually landing the move in general. To help with certain match-ups, I believe that Kirby's second Inhale Custom, Ice Breath, should be replaced. Instead, it should be replaced with a different "variation" of Inhale. Kirby will enter the match with the opponents Copy Ability, and won't be able to lose the ability. However, Kirby would no longer be able to Kirbycide, and has the chance of getting a Copy Ability that doesn't actually help him. This would help with Kirby's Inhale problem, allowing him to better fight against certain characters. In 1v1s, Kirby will take the opponents ability. In FFAs, Kirby will take the second players ability. In Team Battles, Kirby will take his teammates ability.

An actual mechanic change to Copy Abilities that should be made is instead of losing Copy Abilities at random, Kirby should have an invisible health bar for his Copy Abilities, such as how Luma dies after taking an amount of damage. The main reason for this is due to the fact that Kirby could have just gotten a useful ability, been hit, and then detrimentally lose it. This is incredibly frustrating, as getting an ability in general is already hard enough. While it would be developer choice to decide how much damage Kirby could take before the ability is gone, I believe 50% or so would be fair, as it'll let you keep the ability for quite some time.

One other mechanic change to Copy Abilities is "getting rid of them". In actual Kirby games, when an ability is lost, it will bounce around briefly before going away. While it's bouncing around, the ability can either be swallowed to re-gain it, or can be spit out at the opponent as a projectile. I feel that this mechanic should carry over to Smash Bros., too. When an ability reaches it's end point and is lost, it should bounce around as it does in Kirby games. This wouldn't be too difficult to add to the game, as Kirby already has a star model when he spits the opponent out, which can be used for when he's spitting a Copy Ability at an opponent. The same model could also be used for when the ability is bouncing around. To balance this mechanic out, an opponent could easily punish Kirby as he tries to get his ability back, which makes it a risk/reward to go for your ability.

Anyways, that's all I have for now.

I'm going to tag some other Kirby mains so they could give any feedback they have:

@ Asdioh Asdioh , @t!MmY, @JetX818
 
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D

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:4bowserjr:-
  • Finisher should connect if I hold the jab combo for the shortest amount of time
  • FSmash should have all hits connect
:4darkpit:-
  • Ftilt should match Pit's Ftilt in knock back. Its literally a worse version of Pit's even though there is no reason for it. The only other differences are the arms and arrows which are properly balanced, but Dark Pit's Ftilt just makes him almost objectively worse for no reason.
:4pit:+:4darkpit:-
  • Up B should have a larger ledgesnap window (not the entire duration of the move) so I don't fly past the edge into a charged USmash unless I fall to the bottom of the stage as Bair/Dair bait so I can ledgesnap.
  • FSmash and jab finisher should connect more.
:4duckhunt:+:4zelda:-
  • USmash and FSmash should have all hits connect no matter what.
:4duckhunt:-
  • DSmash should have all hits connect no matter what.
:4greninja:-
  • Wood should not exist. :substitute: must reign supreme. In all seriousness, maybe make it so the sub/wood is an item that can be thrown around or have it disappear after the counter? Its a pointless visual effect.
All Counters-
  • More stun should be given to the opponent(s) that is/are being countered. If I get a counter off, at least let me hit with it. Mainly a problem with non customs that have no kind of damage buff in compensation for being slower, especially :4lucario:'s and :4greninja:'s counters.
 
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Shaya

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This seems dumb. Is this just where we complain about our characters and call for nerfs to everyone else's?
It's an exercise in design for some people, for others its a wish list offshoot and those will tend to be ignored. The better thought out wish lists will probably be fairly scrutinised a bit, thrown "sakurai's not likely to change an entire move or mechanic completely" a few times and hopefully/eventually we'll be on a similar page.

No where was this about making every character high tier/top tier, or every top tier "fair". I guess the simplest rational for this would be "quality of life" changes rather than "make me better". Although QoL are obviously making characters better, they generally wouldn't be expanding a character's capabilities drastically, but rather making things more consistent.

If you are going to expand a character's capabilities, they likely would need to be rescinded elsewhere, and that's going to tend towards a lot of complications/theory. Ganon/Robin having more grab range? Well considering they get good things out of their throws (damage/follow ups), would not making that more consistent actually have an extremely large impact we cannot quantify?
 
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Boy Jordan

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I'd love to bring Ness's D-Smash to discussion. In past games, the charging animation had a hitbox on the extended yo-yo, and it could be used reliably as an edgeguarding tool. For whatever reason, that hitbox was entirely removed in this iteration. Ness isn't a bad character by any means, but this would be a good tool to return to his arsenal without tipping the scales much at all.

Overall, I think this is a good idea. I remember participating in Street Fighter IV's community patch project. I don't expect any sort of response or accommodation on Nintendo's part, to be quite honest, but the speculation and discussion at the very least is worthwhile and--truthfully--fun as hell. I'll likely address other suggestions I see later on and help contribute.
 

Asdioh

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I agree with most of Reserved's post, namely that Inhale is too punishable/shieldable, and that he desperately needs some more air speed. He doesn't have to be Jigglypuff tier, but he has a multitude of weaknesses, and molasses airspeed should not be one of them, considering the way he was designed to be played.

The other changes he listed are cool, but obviously too drastic to even suggest to Nintendo, I don't expect them to do much outside of bugfixes/number changes. And since aerial movement speed is a number... :D
Overall, I think this is a good idea. I remember participating in Street Fighter IV's community patch project. I don't expect any sort of response or accommodation on Nintendo's part, to be quite honest, but the speculation and discussion at the very least is worthwhile and--truthfully--fun as hell. I'll likely address other suggestions I see later on and help contribute.
Was the SF4 project started by the community itself, or by the devs? Did anything come of it.
 

Ranias

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I'd love to bring Ness's D-Smash to discussion. In past games, the charging animation had a hitbox on the extended yo-yo, and it could be used reliably as an edgeguarding tool. For whatever reason, that hitbox was entirely removed in this iteration. Ness isn't a bad character by any means, but this would be a good tool to return to his arsenal without tipping the scales much at all.

Overall, I think this is a good idea. I remember participating in Street Fighter IV's community patch project. I don't expect any sort of response or accommodation on Nintendo's part, to be quite honest, but the speculation and discussion at the very least is worthwhile and--truthfully--fun as hell. I'll likely address other suggestions I see later on and help contribute.
I miss the old yoyo as well, but Ness's Down Smash is already okay. It's not super useful, but it's good against rolls and for killing in some situations.

Ness is quite powerful already. He doesn't need to be buffed.

This goes for being able to act out of PK Flash in the air suggestion as well. It is a straight buff that is not needed. PK Flash isn't useful for much but edgeguarding anyways.
 

Nairo

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I don't see what nairo has to do with phantom at all.

He used it well? Gj, I landed Din's Fire last month iirc, give me a medal.

Regarding grab, Sheik, Rosalina, Diddy, Ness all have better followups from grab, there's no reason a non tether (her range was nerfed) to be 12 frames.
Gheb used me as an example of using the phantom decently lmao why give such a smart ass post when he was trying to say that the phantom can still be used in at least someway currently (not that I disagree that the phantom can be better though)
 

KuroganeHammer

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the point is every move in the game can be used in some way

if the argument is that if it can be used it doesn't need to be buffed, this entire topic becomes completely pointless.
 

Phan7om

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I just wanna say this, but nerfing Diddy's UAir wont do much. It certainly will stop him from killing as early as now, but a lot of characters in this game have strong UAirs idc if Diddy is one of them. Plus he would still have access to things like Dthrow > FAir/BAir/DAir etc. I'd say the best solution would be to give D-throw a lot more endlag, and/or give UAir more end lag.
 
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Raijinken

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I just wanna say this, but nerfing Diddy's UAir wont do much. It certainly will stop him from killing as early as now, but a lot of characters in this game have strong UAirs idc if Diddy is one of them. Plus he would still have access to things like Dthrow > FAir/BAir/DAir etc. I'd say the best solution would be to give D-throw a lot more endlag.
It doesn't have to be a straight nerf necessarily. As you say, a lot of characters have strong Uairs. The issue with Diddy, at least to my perception, is that his works to combo and rack damage at low percents, and as a kill at high percents. One or the other, completely reasonable, but a move that are effective as combos OR kills are neither widespread nor particularly "balanced".

One solution could be to tweak the move's base, or scaling, knockback. Perhaps both. Other solutions could be to, as you said, make it harder to start comboing into by nerfing other moves. But, contrary to what Shaya may have said on page 1, it isn't our job to pick the exact numbers to change to what other exact numbers. It's Nandai and Sakurai's job to pick that, and our job to find out if it worked properly, too well, or too little.
 

Weeman

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The real problem with Diddy it's the frequency he can get those grab combos, wich is a combination of his grab range, speed, banana approach options and just the combo ability than Dthrow gives.
If it had a little bit more of ending frames, or sent the opponent at a wider angle, it could still be used effectively but it wouldn't be used nearly as often because the percentage window in wich it could combo would be more strict
 

Phan7om

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A lot of throw combos are too free in general.
 

Weeman

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A lot of throw combos are too free in general.
Yeah, but look for example at Captain Falcon's Dthrow to Uair combos, they're also really good but the ending frames on it and the angle it sends people render it almost useless against most characters after the 70-80% mark, that's what i personally think Diddy's Dthrow should be like, a great way to rack up damage early but not an almost completely safe kill setup.
 

MegaMissingno

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Just a note about Samus's jab not comboing, that's actually mentioned in one of the loading screen tips. So apparently it's a deliberate design decision. I'm not really sure why, but it's probably not likely to change.
 

Raijinken

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A lot of throw combos are too free in general.
Palutena, Diddy, Captain Falcon, and so on, yes. But there are others who struggle to combo from a grab. Robin struggles greatly with that past 60 percent or so, and Marth and Ike's grab-followup options are very poor this game around. Villager doesn't have many options either, but at least his can kill. Megaman's followups all lose effectiveness very quickly. Diddy's, by comparison, only gets better, not worse. If that's intended, then plenty of other characters can be buffed up to a comparable level of followup potential. If not, there are numerous tweaks that can be made to Diddy's options, like changing the angle, or the power, or the endlag.

Just a note about Samus's jab not comboing, that's actually mentioned in one of the loading screen tips. So apparently it's a deliberate design decision. I'm not really sure why, but it's probably not likely to change.
Everything about the game's design is deliberate. It's still all changeable if it doesn't fit. This is 2014. It's up to Sakurai and Nandai whether or not it needs to change.
 

Karsticles

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* We deeply respect Nintendo's work - Smash 4 is a piece of work close to perfection. Therefore we will only make as many suggestions as necessary.

Sure he may be calling the shots on what gets in at this capacity, but he isn't going to ignore communal backing. There's mostly a logic there that I can attest to, so let me try to flesh it out a little.

Assume this: Sakurai and the Balance team aren't idiots. They didn't draw numbers out of a hat to decide what a character can or cannot do. For every number that exists, a decision was likely made.
Unless you think something is an oversight (a special category and highly subjective) then asking for it to change requires a reasoning for it to change, and there would have to be a design logic that they can understand as well as be aligned with how they see the game.
I think there are tons of things that can validate an argument about a change; previous game comparisons as well as current meta comparisons, potential oversights, strengths of a move being too 'weak' for their efforts, a move too limited to be usable. I'm sure there are other things.

Your post was ALL STRAIGHT BUFFS, with one thing "flying slam no longer misses at close range" being something to talk about. You cannot expect someone to go through a post which didn't follow thread rules/guidelines when you've obviously not taken the time to read/understand the thread guidelines itself (if you had, you wouldn't have made a post like that in the first place).
No, clearly you did not read my post.

Three out of the four Bowser changes I suggested should be considered fixes. Flying Slam should not whiff up close. Bowser should not suffer landing lag even without button presses. Bowser should not ignore ledge grabs during basic recovery attempts.

There are even two full threads on the Bowser forum about this last issue. It is a widely acknowledged issue with the character. These are all small, basic fixes to improve his fundamental playability.

The only arguable buff I listed is Fire Breath getting better recovery. I agree that is simply a desired buff, and I am fine with taking it off the table. But I can tell you that I have shell jumped the ledge numerous times in my 1,500+ Bowser matches so far, and then fallen to my death for no reason. This is a nigh-universal issue in the Bowser community. It is absurd to call that a "buff".

The same applies to landing lag without pressing inputs. These things are all easy to test in training mode, and they are blatantly problems that need to be fixed with the character, not just buffs.

I don't even play Megaman, I just the change to Crash Bomb would be a given. The move is hard to land, prevents Megaman from approaching, has no canonical basis, and has low payoff if it hits. It is just ridiculously bad right now. I could have explained all of that, but I thought the entire community was aware of that as an issue.
 
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Raijinken

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No, clearly you did not read my post.

Three out of the four Bowser changes I suggested should be considered fixes. Flying Slam should not whiff up close. Bowser should not suffer landing lag even without button presses. Bowser should not ignore ledge grabs during basic recovery attempts.

There are even two full threads on the Bowser forum about this last issue. It is a widely acknowledged issue with the character. These are all small, basic fixes to improve his fundamental playability.

The only arguable buff I listed is Fire Breath getting better recovery. I agree that is simply a desired buff, and I am fine with taking it off the table. But I can tell you that I have shell jumped the ledge numerous times in my 1,500+ Bowser matches so far, and then fallen to my death for no reason. This is a nigh-universal issue in the Bowser community. It is absurd to call that a "buff".

The same applies to landing lag without pressing inputs. These things are all easy to test in training mode, and they are blatantly problems that need to be fixed with the character, not just buffs.

I don't even play Megaman, I just the change to Crash Bomb would be a given. The move is hard to land, prevents Megaman from approaching, has no canonical basis, and has low payoff if it hits. It is just ridiculously bad right now. I could have explained all of that, but I thought the entire community was aware of that as an issue.
To be fair, if a fix in mechanics results in a favorable outcome, then it is a buff, if indirect. That said, it is indirect, which is distinct from a straight buff.

As for the Crash Bomber, I agree that it has issues with harming Megaman essentially as much as it harms his opponent. If it weren't outright dodgeable I'd praise its capacity to force the enemy to accept shield pressure, but that's hardly a strong effect in 1v1 play. That, and his Metal Blade being catchable so easily are why I far prefer his options with customs enabled. No matter how situational, it's hard to argue the Crash Bomb being better than either the Danger Wrap or the Ice Slasher (cases for Metal Blade vs Hyper Bomb and Shadow Blade are more preferential), when neither carries risk to Megaman, and both at least trigger on shield.

:4greninja:-
  • Wood should not exist. :substitute: must reign supreme. In all seriousness, maybe make it so the sub/wood is an item that can be thrown around or have it disappear after the counter? Its a pointless visual effect.
A note about the subdoll and wood. They actually have hitboxes, somewhat like the Shy Guys or Balloon. If, for instance, Greninja does his Dair on one, he will impact it and fly upward again rather than landing. I don't play Greninja enough to judge whether that should be what it does, but it certainly is more than cosmetic fluff.
 
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Karsticles

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To be fair, if a fix in mechanics results in a favorable outcome, then it is a buff, if indirect. That said, it is indirect, which is distinct from a straight buff.

As for the Crash Bomber, I agree that it has issues with harming Megaman essentially as much as it harms his opponent. If it weren't outright dodgeable I'd praise its capacity to force the enemy to accept shield pressure, but that's hardly a strong effect in 1v1 play. That, and his Metal Blade being catchable so easily are why I far prefer his options with customs enabled. No matter how situational, it's hard to argue the Crash Bomb being better than either the Danger Wrap or the Ice Slasher (cases for Metal Blade vs Hyper Bomb and Shadow Blade are more preferential), when neither carries risk to Megaman, and both at least trigger on shield.
I don't mean to suggest that beneficial bug fixes aren't buffs. I was primarily combatting the notion that I was just looking to buff. If Bowser had glitches to his benefit, I would say to fix those too. If his wavelanding tech is considered a glitch, remove it and take away that option. What first occurs to me is to get rid of mechanics that are clearly awful or characters I am familiar with. I might suggest a fix on Marth/Lucina and their ledge grabbing issues, but people who play then might like some of those consequences. I leave that to people dedicated to those characters to discuss.
 

MagiusNecros

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Yeah I've noticed Bowser's fear of the ledge when recovering. Especially when grabbing the ledge would be more beneficial then suffering the land lag from Aerial Fortress and eating an attack or projectile.

DeDeDe never has this problem since he always snaps to the ledge on the way up. I'm guessing with Bowser it's entirely dependent on where his head or arms are while spinning which is why sometimes he just goes over the ledge.
 

MegaMissingno

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One thing's been bugging me with Mega Man. Why does he have a wall jump? That's X's thing, classic MM can't do that!

Only half joking, but it's not like he really needs it when Rush is so godlike anyway, right? Alright, to compensate for that small nerf, a small buff: Shoryuken/Mega Upper gets a 3 frame startup. Who ever heard of a 6 frame DP? That makes even less sense than wall jumping!

Alright, alright, too silly to base patch suggestions on trying to be more canon? I seriously do feel Shoryuken ought to behave like you expect it to in other fighting games, as a very fast reversal. It's so weird and uninutitive that it doesn't quite match the speed Shoryuken is known for and some moves can beat it to the punch. This is supposed to be a direct rip of his MvC Mega Upper, so you'd expect it to have the same function.
 

Deadlybroth

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As for the Crash Bomber, I agree that it has issues with harming Megaman essentially as much as it harms his opponent. If it weren't outright dodgeable I'd praise its capacity to force the enemy to accept shield pressure, but that's hardly a strong effect in 1v1 play. That, and his Metal Blade being catchable so easily are why I far prefer his options with customs enabled. No matter how situational, it's hard to argue the Crash Bomb being better than either the Danger Wrap or the Ice Slasher (cases for Metal Blade vs Hyper Bomb and Shadow Blade are more preferential), when neither carries risk to Megaman, and both at least trigger on shield.
As a Megaman main, I have to disagree about that. Both the Crash Bomber and Metal Blade are much better than they seem at first. Yes, they both can easily be avoided/countered, but if you look at any Megaman tournament match, you won't see the Metal Blade being caught very often, 1-2 times per match at most. This probably is because the meta is young and matchups aren't very well developed yet, but even so, the Metal Blade has immense versatility to make up for that. The Metal Blade can be fired in 8 directions and be used as an item by Megaman himself, which also includes z-dropping and jump-cancelling shenanigans. It is also used as a combo setup for grabs and the Mega-Upper. Meanwhile, the Hyper Bomb is admittedly pretty good, but it can also be caught as an item, and it has less combo setups. The Shadow Blade can't be caught and it also has setups for grabs and the Mega Upper, but you also lose the ability to use it as an item. It's also extremely short ranged and you lose a long to mid-range spacing tool. The Hyper Bomb and the Shadow Blade are both viable options, but you'd be hard pressed to find a sizeable amount of people who prefer their niche over the Metal Blade.

The Crash Bomber on the other hand, can be dodged, but it's one of Megaman's longer range projectiles and can be spammed. It's not quite as easy to dodge as it seems. When it does attach, it forces the opponent to either shield or run in to transfer it, making it very useful for mindgames. It also explodes on hit against non-attachable things like Villager's tree and balloons, Luma, etc, making it a very valuable part of the matchup. In a lot of other cases though, the Danger Wrap is preferable, so you're not wrong there. However, the Ice Slasher is probably one of his worst moves. It only deals 4%, and even with the "double shot" glitch, it does 8%, which is as much as the Crash Bomber if all 3 hits connect. At later %s the glitch is useless and the second shot whiffs due to the freezing effect. On top of that, the move is slow and laggy, making it hard for followups, and you can break out of the ice fairly quickly. The only use I can think of would be for doubles.
 
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