Community Patch Project

[~ Gheb ~]

Credit goes to @ Shaya for allowing me to do this!

The Smash 4 Community Patch Project

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Greetings, fellow Smash 4 enthusiasts and fanatics! As most of you have realized by now, since the announcement of Smash 4 a number of changes have been brought about to the Smash Bros franchise by Nintendo. For us competitive players the most dramatic change is the new way Nintendo interacts with the community. During the era of Melee and Brawl a lot of people had the impression that Nintendo was being ignorant or even unconstructive towards the smash community. With the announcement of Smash 4 - possibly influenced by Project: M - we have come to see a new, much more supportive attitude. Nintendo hosting launch events for Smash 4 all across the globe, supporting the competitive community and creating balance patches for the game shows a desire to include competitive players in a way we hadn't had the pleasure to experience yet.
These encouraging facts inspired me to make this thread. With balancing patches having become reality I think we should return the favor to Nintendo by actively adding constructive input to their work and come up with community patch suggestions of our own.

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This is a community project. That means that everybody is free to make their input. However, not all suggestions will be accepted - on the contrary! There's a whole lot of rules to keep in mind if you really want your suggestion to be appreciated or even acknowledged:

* This is not a whishlist where everybody can just dunk random ideas.
* The moderation of this thread will be extremely strict.
* Any suggestion you make must have a good explanation on why it improves the game's competitive quality.
* Posting a suggestion with no explanation to it will be reported as spam and infracted as such.
* Keep the input as constructive and concrete as possible.
* Even if your suggestion follows the above rules, it is not guaranteed that it will end up in the suggestion.
* However, at the very least it will be taken into consideration and will be discussed seriously in this thread.
* We deeply respect Nintendo's work - Smash 4 is a piece of work close to perfection. Therefore we will only make as many suggestions as necessary.

Let my illustrate the suggestion process through some examples:

How to not do it: Mariomain123 posts "Nerf Diddy Kong plz!"

Mariomain123 would receive an infraction for this post as it is considered spam. There is no constructive input to it and no explanation how or why Diddy Kong should be nerfed. Furthermore it doesn't explain where the perceived problem with the character lies.

How to do it: Marionaim123 posts "Diddy Kong's uair needs to be nerfed because it's fundamentally unbalanced. The risk/reward ratio of that move is extremely one-sided: it has only 3 frames of start-up lag, kills extremely early, racks up damage insanely fast at low percent, has an oversized hitbox above it and in front of it and there's next to no risk in using it in any situation. Therefore I suggest a healthy nerf of Diddy Kong's uair that consists of an increase in start-up lag by 2 or 3 frames to make dthrow -> uair kills harder to perform without removing the move's combo abilities at low percent. If you increase the recovery of the move by a similar amount of frames it also loses it's ability to frame trap airdodges into a guaranteed fair, bair or uair which makes the move tolerable. It's also worth discussing whether the hitbox in front of it should be downsized a bit although it seems that adjusting its frame data could be enough to balance the move adequately."

Marioman123's suggestion would be taken into consideration and discussed among the community. If thorough debate or - even better - empirical evidence from tournament play end up supporting the suggestion it will be included in the "official" commuity patch suggestion.

If everybody sticks to this way of making their input there will be no problems. People who fail to follow it will be infracted. If things get out of hand then the thread will be locked. This is a once in a lifetime chance though so let's not allow it to get that far!

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[collapse="Up to discussion:"]Global:
*Remove the ability to tech spikes when grounded
*Fix the c-sticks mechanics to make it work like it did in previous smash games
*Add a mechanic akin to DI or VI for survival purposes

Diddy Kong:
*Adjustments to up air

Donkey Kong:
*Remove the landing pose on upB [DK flexes his muscles]

Ganondorf changes:
*http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-project-ganondorf.380759/

Ike changes:
*Give dtilt a slightly more horizontal trajectory
*Change jab2's damage from 3%->4%
*Align hitboxes correctly for fair and jab3
*Add a sourspot hitbox to dair, possibly lower damage by 1%
*Increase uair damage from 11->13% and reduce base knockback

Luigi changes:
*Decrease the amount of inputs needed to gain height while using downB

Samus changes:
*Jab combo doesn't work reliably

Zelda:
*Aerial Din's fire should not send her into freefall state[/collapse]


[collapse="Accepted Suggestions:"]

Global:
*If a match ends through a suicide move - Flying Slam, Flame Choke, Chomp, Inhale and others - the endgame result should be consistent and not random
*KOs off the top always result in star or screen KOs as long as it isn't the last stock or there's more than 15-30 seconds on the timer

Charizard:
*Increase the hitstun of jab 1 to make sure it always links into jab 2
*Fix the hitboxes of upsmash and up B custom #2 to make sure that the hits link properly

Donkey Kong:
*Using Giant Punch against a shield next to the edge causes DK to die. Add the ability to grab the ledge to prevent this from happening
*Sourspot sideB and ftilt at low % are unsafe on hit. Increase base knockback to make sure DK doesn't get punished for landing a hit
*Fsmash whiffs against very close opponents. Either fix the hitbox or the animation of the move so they match
*DKs jab combo doesn't work until ~25% unless you hit the opponent with the hip.Needs more base knockback to fix this and less knockback growth to link reliably at higher percent
*DK's punch charging is bugged. It adds stacks to the charge at the beginning of the next swing instead of at the end of the swing

Jigglypuff:
*Fix rollout so Jigglypuff doesn't enter that weird tumble state after successfully connecting the move [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8UXCfDshKIc]

Kirby:
*Opponents that get their abilities copied by Kirby should be put into hitstun. Some characters get guarantee hits on Kirby for getting swallowed

Meta Knight:
*Fix the animations of Meta Knight's sword attacks so they match their actual hitbox size

Peach:
*Adjust Dash Attack to make sure all hits connect reliably

Wii Fit Trainer:
*Grab whiffs against small character. Increase the grab hitbox or position it lower to prevent this from happening

Zelda:
*Fix the hitstun of fsmash and usmash to make sure all hits connect reliably[/collapse]

 

[Crazc]

suggestion: use a more readable color.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

suggestion: use a more readable color.

Accepted!

 

[Asdioh]

Does this include things that could be technically counted as bugfixes? Because I want Kirby's Copy to have hitstun since this has been a problem since Brawl, and apparently even Melee. On that note, it would also be nice if Inhale had less ending lag in general, since it's a very important move for Kirby but it's difficult to land and insanely punishable, and he can't afford to risk it and take free punishment, considering his light weight. If buffing it would make "Kirbycides too scary" I'd be fine with just the grounded version having less lag.

I agree wholeheartedly with Mariomain123's suggestion. I'd even be fine with Diddy Kong Upair's frame data staying the same, as long as the KO power is greatly reduced. Sheik was nerfed hard for stuff that was nowhere near as gross as this.

Aside from that, I can't really think of any characters that need nerfs? I'm upset that Luma can still hit you mid-throw, but they already "nerfed" that so I don't know what more to say about that.

All that's really needed is some buffs to weaker characters, in my opinion. That would overall cause less frustration among the community as well, since nobody likes their main getting nerfed.

edit: and in terms of general game design, it'd be cool if shields took longer to recharge. I'm fine with shielding being a strong option, but heavy shield damage is an interesting risk/reward part of the game, and they just recharge to full too quickly to take any advantage of.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

In the interest of keeping to the spirit of the topic, I'll throw my 2 cents in on Ganondorf.

Ganondorf still struggles significantly in many matchups for gap closing and lack of tools to force the opponents to come to you. Even when they do, however, he often lacks the tools to punish them even in mid range with his side-B and down B having considerable startup. However, I think there are 2 areas that would greatly benefit Ganondorf without becoming overly powerful in his toolkit.

1. Increase the speed of Ganondorf's dash startup.
The purpose of this buff is to allow Ganondorf a tool to punish his opponents who space aerials or attacks that would normally be punishable by virtually any other character in the game. The speed of his run doesn't need to increase, nor does the distance that his dash start sends him, merely the speed of it. This buff, while relatively minor, would allow Ganondorf a world of new options without making him overpowering.

2. Increase the speed and range of Ganondorf's grab, as well as decrease the endlag on whiff.
Ganondorf's throws are okay at best. They don't give him free followups like some characters, nor do they kill like other characters. What they do is give Ganondorf a positional advantage which is neccessary for him in many ways. However, Ganondorf's grab range is miniscule, paling in comparison to the rest of the cast. In fact he may have the shortest grab range in the game, which I cannot say with facts but merely conjecture. On top of that, his grab has incredble endlag for a non-tether, and is also ridiculously slow! I'm not sure what internal testing they did to find that Ganondorf's throws were so strong that they required such a drastic downside to them, because I haven't discovered this yet myself. WIth the option to now throw in many places when he couldn't before, Ganondorf will finally have more versaltile tools to keep up with matchups that were otherwise absurdly difficult for him.


Let me say that my philosophy of game design (I do game design on the side as a hobby) is that everyone should have tools to win. The Smash series has always suffered from vastly different tiers where the difference is enormous between a top and a low tier. Smash 4, in that respect, seems like it may be the best in the series from that perspective. Tiers are much closer than they seemed before. Given that, most characters should only require relatively small buffs or nerfs to bring them to the same level of strength as everyone else in the cast. Too much of either one would easily tip the scales one way or another.

 

[Karsticles]

Megaman:
Crash Bomb no longer transfers between characters.

Bowser:
Improved ledge snapping when facing away from a ledge, especially during Fortress. (Presently he will always go over the ledge instead of snapping to it when facing away)

Slightly reduce Fire Breath recovery. (It is often punishable even on hit right now)

Flying Slam no longer misses at extremely close range. (It is a command grab - this is its purpose)

Bowser no longer suffers from landing lag simply from landing without taking any actions. (This seems like an unnecessary weakness that forces Bowser players to always ledge recover)

 

[Lavani]

• King Dedede's Gordos should vanish on hit instead of being reflected; Gordo damage reduced from 14% to 7~10%.

Dedede is a large, slow character with a projectile that can't be utilized in the manner that most projectiles can. Throwing a Gordo out at neutral will likely result in it being smacked back in his face. Against other projectile characters, their projectiles will reflect his projectiles, forcing him to approach through them instead - something he has great difficulty doing due to his size and speed. By making Gordos vanish when hit, Dedede gains a powerful projectile he can safely throw out at a distance, giving him a neutral game, but keeps the balancing factor that any opponent can simply attack through his projectiles to cancel them. Since Gordos become significantly less risky with this buff, a damage nerf from 14% to 7~10% would be acceptable if not necessary.

• Amount of mashing required to recover effectively with Luigi's downB reduced.

The amount of mashing required to get optimal height out of Luigi's downB without using a double jump is absurd. This number may not be accurate (please correct me if it isn't), but I've read it takes 14 presses/second to rise with Luigi's downB without using a double jump, a number simply impossible for but a handful of people to reach. Speaking as an average-to-poor button masher, I tend to average around 9.6 presses/second, yet this is enough to get full effect out of other mashing moves such as Meta Knight's neutralB and Bowser's upB. Seeing as it goes against Sakurai's design philosophy to put something rewarding yet beyond the average person's execution capabilities in the game (see: removal of ATs such as wavedashing and L-canceling), it absolutely baffles me that there's this much of an execution barrier on something as fundamental as a character's recovery.

 

[san.]

• Give dtilt a slightly more horizontal trajectory
  
  The changes to his dtilt makes it a supreme startup tool for very little cost. At low percents, you can trap all options with a nair->dtilt chain. Tweaking the trajectory would make it escapable while still being in reach of his other potent tools such as fair at lower percentages. This change would also prevent followups when hitting with the latter half of dtilt's reach. The reward from 1 dtilt right now is too good.
  
  
• Change jab2's damage from 3%->4%
  
  Jab2 does not have the hitstun to link into jab3 despite the recent speed increase if jab1 misses. This forces Ike into a defensive position despite hitting someone with the jab2. +1% damage will allow for better hitstun into his final attack, and make his jab string more worth it compared to just using the first hit.
  
  
• Align hitboxes correctly for fair and jab3
  
  Both Jab3 and fair don't have hitboxes for the first quarter of the swing arc. This makes it very disconcerting when trying to hit properly. A full hitbox above him I would agree to be too much, but I think a small tweak is needed. Many attacks miss when they look like they should hit.
  
  
• Add a sourspot hitbox to dair, possibly lower damage by 1%
  
  Similar to the above, Ike's sword lingers without a hitbox when using dair. I don't think it makes much sense since the sword is visibly out there. This changes it so that it's almost never used now, especially when spiking with it is tougher, since it only spikes at the bottom half of the hitbox. The sourspot doesn't need to linger as long as Brawl's, but I think there should still be one, and it's important to his overall kit. Most other dairs in the game have sourspots with dair with no visual cues, unlike Ike.
  
  
• Increase uair damage from 11->13% and reduce base knockback
  
  Ike's uair deals dreadfully low damage compared to his counterparts. It used to deal 14% in previous iterations, but now deals 11%, same as Falco and Luigi. It's frame 12 at the start and likely 16-18 in practice since it starts behind him. Nair is better as a landing trap and all of his other aerials are better for combos. Uair trades with most dairs in this game now, and is likely to be weaker than a fair amount of them. 13% ensures damage similar to Captain Falcon and Donkey Kong with much faster uairs. Ike's uair has abnormally high base knockback, so it would need to be reduced to avoid low % KOs.

 

[LancerStaff]

First, I want to see a few of Pit and Dark Pit's moves fixed. Not major buffs, but just more consistency.

Their Sspecials have inconsistent super armor when they actually do the uppercut. Sometimes it'll go though multihit attacks, sometimes it won't.

Then their jab finisher doesn't connect right if the opponent tries at all to get out from the attack. That may be intentional, but yaknow.

Their Fsmash, their best KO move on characters who have trouble KOing, also has trouble linking the two hit in some situations. The first hit will sometimes just pop specific characters away, the perfect position to be punished it even though it hit.

Their Uspecial won't ledge grab if facing away, although it's a minor problem on most stages. Worth mentioning though.

Then DP is widely considered to be the worse of the two. I'm not saying to buff a bunch of his moves, but his Ftilt is a sore spot. It's one of the only moves to have any difference whatsoever, and it's just outright weaker. Pit's has high knockback, so it easily clears space and can even KO. Dark Pit's has low KB, but not near enough to combo properly. Let him act sooner out of it, make it deal more damage, buff it to match Pit's... Anything, really. Even if it did match Pit's he'd still be considered the worse of the two.

Then for stages, I'd like to see Lylat fixed. Either form, recovery is much more difficult then it needs to be. Most stages' undersides guide recoveries to the ledge. Here, you'll just get stuck, even when you're an inch away from the ledge. Normal Lylat I can understand because of the tilting, but Omega Lylat has no such justification. I've seen people just SD on Glory when it's picked, even.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Does this include things that could be technically counted as bugfixes? Because I want Kirby's Copy to have hitstun since this has been a problem since Brawl, and apparently even Melee.

I'm not quite familiar with the issue but if it's legit a bugfix then I see no problem with adding this. Is the sole issue that copy has no hitstun at all?

and in terms of general game design, it'd be cool if shields took longer to recharge. I'm fine with shielding being a strong option, but heavy shield damage is an interesting risk/reward part of the game, and they just recharge to full too quickly to take any advantage of.

It's too early to call shield recharge time a specific problem with Smash 4 so this will not be considered for the time being. Should there ever be a time where we'll have empirical backup for the claim that shields need to be nerfed you can get back at me with this though.

Suggestions on Ganondorf

Generally agreeing with Ganondorf still needing a buff. Increasing the dash startup is definitely an idea worth discussing too. I'll try to get Ganondorf players involved with this and see if they can point out other specific issues with the character and how to fix them within a reasonable frame.

Megaman & Bowser suggestions

These will not be considered. Neither character has shown any signs of needing buffs.

DDD and Luigi suggestions

Am willing to take the suggestion for DDD into consideration since Gordo may actually hurt DDD more than it helps him. This could be a legitimate problem for the character that should probably not exist the way it does currently. Will be discussed for sure.
The Luigi suggestion will be ignored for now because it's unclear whether this is a specific issue that directly hurts Luigi's viability. The character is generally unexplored and whether he needs a buff at all is questionable. He doesn't seem utterly unviable to the point where he can't do without a buff. Maybe at a later point, certainly not now.

Ike suggestions

I'm unsure about the suggested change of uair but all the other suggestions seem reasonable and fair. I will get back to you regarding these suggestions as soon as I have gathered a decent chunk of similarly useful input on other characters.

 

[SlyChoober]

Not a character change but..

For Glory Team Smash should be 2 stock 6 minutes to keep it inline with For Glory 1-on-1.

I feel this absolutely necessary because 2 minutes goes by so quick and is bad for characters whose game plan is to get you at high percents then go for the KO. It would prevent players from running away as no one would try that unless there is 10 seconds left. This may be very opinionated but it really makes the game boring and lacks excitement. By having stocks, it would make players play more smartly, as well as make this mode a lot more fun.

 

[san.]

I'm unsure about the suggested change of uair but all the other suggestions seem reasonable and fair. I will get back to you regarding these suggestions as soon as I have gathered a decent chunk of similarly useful input on other characters.

I'll try to into a little more detail on uair.

Uair's most prominent ability revolved around platform pressure. It could punish landings and poke or push shields well. A large indirect nerf came to this move with the removal of edge slipping against shielded opponents. Many other characters face this challenge, too, but it hurts the laggy uairs the most. Ike's uair needs a full hop without fastfalling to get it to autocancel. This makes it highly punishable out of shield on a platform and provides less followups out of combos, outside of the others (outside of dair) that can be fastfalled immediately. I'm going to go for bair, fair, or even nair every time compared to uair in similar scenarios. Most of the time, Ike is going to suffer those 18 frames of lag after significant amounts of time in the air.

An increase in damage will help in knockback, hitstun, shield stun, shield damage, and shield pushback. I am fine with the current uair's knockback, so I hope that decreasing the base knockback from 0x28 (norm I see is 0x1E) would keep its knockback at reasonable levels. Admittedly, I had 12% before changing it at the last second, though. I just briefly looked at the frame data and damage of other uairs and came to the conclusion that 13% would be fine. An alternative would be to increase the autocancel/IASA window, but that would give it a different feel than what it had in Brawl.

 

[madworlder]

In a patch, I would like to see a way for the game to save the options for Smash and 8-player Smash so I didn't have to change it to stock, team attack on, and set the time limit every time we began playing.

 

[Cheezy23]

I'd say buff Mega Man just a tiny bit:

Make it so that his d-air always spikes. This might be controversial, but think about it. It has a lot of startup lag, so it's extremely hard to hit with. You basically have to catch someone whiffing on a long attack for it to even connect, and it's kind of frustrating when you hit with it and it sends your opponent flying to the side. I'm not saying change startup or endlag, but maybe make it spike all of the time.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

These will not be considered. Neither character has shown any signs of needing buffs.

No offense, Gheb, but what gives you the ability to decide which character does or does not deserve a buff? Are you basing it off of tournament results and data?

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'd like to propose a change to the way airdodges work.

Solution 1: Enable a one airdodge per time in the air limit. You may only airdodge one time in the air. To reset your airdodge you must touch the ground or grab the ledge.

Solution 2: Same as solution one but the airdodge is reset by touching the ground, grabbing the ledge, and by taking damage.

Both solutions give a bigger advantage to the aggressor. Solution 1 is more extreme than solution 2 but both will make juggling and edge guarding more effective.

 

[RODO]

Samus needs a lot of fixing but I think what would help her more right now is decreasing some of the landing lag on a few of her aerials and decrease lag or start up time on missiles. Right now her projectile game is weak because of the amount of downtime you experience after firing missiles. So either there needs to be less lag afterwards or they just need to come out faster. They don't even have to be cancellable.

On her aerials her strength as a character comes from how good of an anti-air character she is due to how she can out prioritize people with aerials. Thing is, however, is that she is lacking in the neutral game because her grounded options are kind of poor. If she had less lag off of aerials upon landing then shorthopped aerials for approaching could help her in the neutral.

Needs less lag off of his nair so that it completely autocancels upon fast falling (like his bair).

More buffs in general. Better recovery for and

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No offense, Gheb, but what gives you the ability to decide which character does or does not deserve a buff? Are you basing it off of tournament results and data?

* We deeply respect Nintendo's work - Smash 4 is a piece of work close to perfection. Therefore we will only make as many suggestions as necessary.

I try to stay 100% consistent with that policy so you will generally see me post that character X doesn't deserve buffs A LOT.

Also, nothing will be accepted without a proper explanation but you're free to voice your opinion if you disagree with me. I'm not incapable of changing my mind in the face of a convincing argument. I call this project Community Patch Project for a reason.

 

[chainmaillekid]

• King Dedede's Gordos should vanish on hit instead of being reflected; Gordo damage reduced from 14% to 7~10%.

Dedede is a large, slow character with a projectile that can't be utilized in the manner that most projectiles can. Throwing a Gordo out at neutral will likely result in it being smacked back in his face. Against other projectile characters, their projectiles will reflect his projectiles, forcing him to approach through them instead - something he has great difficulty doing due to his size and speed. By making Gordos vanish when hit, Dedede gains a powerful projectile he can safely throw out at a distance, giving him a neutral game, but keeps the balancing factor that any opponent can simply attack through his projectiles to cancel them. Since Gordos become significantly less risky with this buff, a damage nerf from 14% to 7~10% would be acceptable if not necessary.

The gordo being reflected makes it a very unique projectile in the game. I think its very fun, and interesting, and that we shouldn't be so quick to throw it away. Particularly as I don't see DDD being disadvantaged to other characters, but rather gordo is a move that is weaker and more difficult to utilize than it could be, which is something most characters have.
A stronger gordo isn't needed to balance DDD, this change would simply make gordo an easier and more reliable projectile to use.

I would rather have it cancel with weak attacks ( drop to the ground, and vanish.) , and have it be reflected by stronger ones.
This gives a little finer control of the the thresholds, and gives the opportunity for an additional outcome.

 

[Big O]

Game System Changes

-Spikes on grounded opponents being techable is silly and should be fixed.


General Character Changes

-Jab combos that aren't infinite need to work at 0%. Ideally they should always work unless you mess up or something.

-Grabs should not whiff against small characters. This shouldn't be happening and it feels awful when it does happen.


DK Quality of Life Changes

-Punching a shield next to the edge causes you to SD. This is super dumb and needs to be fixed. It needs to be able to grab the ledge much earlier.

-Side B sourspot unsafe is on hit. Needs more base knockback to prevent this.

-Ftilt is also unsafe on hit early on. Needs enough base knockback to make it safe at 0%.

-Fsmash whiffs when they are close. A move as laggy and awful as his Fsmash shouldn't be whiffing like that. A hitbox closer to his body or just bigger hitboxes in general would fix this.

-Up B's landing pose (the flexing his muscles part) is dumb and should be removed. It forces you to always go for the ledge and takes away from your platform game. Part of the reason everyone flocks to his Kong Cyclone custom is that it doesn't have this problem (on top of it's other strengths). The landing pose is just an unnecessary penalty for what used to be good positioning.


Ganon Changes

-Warlock Thrust needs less cooldown. It is a unique highly disjointed option that it hindered by its abysmal risk/reward. It needs less cooldown to bring the risk/reward to normal levels.

-Warlock Punch and Blade loses their super armor when you B-reversal them or do them in the air. That is a weird and unnecessary quirk of both moves.

-T-Rex grab hitbox could use some buffs. Its lack of reach makes him a little too exploitable on defense for someone who has a hard time mounting a capable offense.

-His jab could be a little bit faster or less laggy. Perhaps a little of both. This would help him a lot vs characters like Shiek who open him up for free.

-SH AC Dair is something everyone wants back. It isn't necessary, but it would be great to have it back.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The gordo being reflected makes it a very unique projectile in the game. I think its very fun, and interesting, and that we shouldn't be so quick to throw it away. Particularly as I don't see DDD being disadvantaged to other characters, but rather gordo is a move that is weaker and more difficult to utilize than it could be, which is something most characters have.
A stronger gordo isn't needed to balance DDD, this change would simply make gordo an easier and more reliable projectile to use.

It's not so much about balancing DDD as a character as it is about fixing the ludicrous risk/reward ratio of that move. As things stand right now throwing out a Gordo is insanely risky - especially for a projectile - to the point where DDD is better off not using it at all because the reward is quite pathetic in comparison to how much risk you take. The only common situation where the Gordo Toss can be reasonably used is when the opponent is offstage - in which case DDD has much better tools than throwing out a Gordo. In every other situation Gordo Toss is either extremely likely to backfire or simply not going to do anything at all.

If somebody has a good counter-argument to this, I'd sure love to hear it.

 

[Asdioh]

I'm not quite familiar with the issue but if it's legit a bugfix then I see no problem with adding this. Is the sole issue that copy has no hitstun at all?

Yes. Kirby suffers from "hitstun" after successfully landing a move, while the opponent doesn't. http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbys-epic-guide-ssb4-3ds.367840/page-7#post-18074328

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In a patch, I would like to see a way for the game to save the options for Smash and 8-player Smash so I didn't have to change it to stock, team attack on, and set the time limit every time we began playing.

That's something I could add as optional because I don't think anybody in the community will disagree with this suggestion. Not something very high on my agenda list because it's not super-important but I don't see why this suggestion should not be included.

I'd say buff Mega Man just a tiny bit:

Make it so that his d-air always spikes. This might be controversial, but think about it. It has a lot of startup lag, so it's extremely hard to hit with. You basically have to catch someone whiffing on a long attack for it to even connect, and it's kind of frustrating when you hit with it and it sends your opponent flying to the side. I'm not saying change startup or endlag, but maybe make it spike all of the time.

No offense but the problem is that nobody cares if you feel frustrated about not being able to spike with the move. The move isn't broken, neither in a positive nor a negative way so there's nothing about it that needs to be fixed. We don't suggest changes just because a minority of the community feels displeased with something. What we need to deal with are things that are objectively definable as problems. Megaman's moves not working the way you wish they worked is not a problem to the character.

Game System Changes

-Spikes on grounded opponents being techable is silly and should be fixed.

Disagree - unless a huge majority of the community sees this as an actual "problem" there's no need to fix it cuz it ain't broke.


General Character Changes

-Jab combos that aren't infinite need to work at 0%. Ideally they should always work unless you mess up or something.

-Grabs should not whiff against small characters. This shouldn't be happening and it feels awful when it does happen.

Both will surely be taken care of through character specific requests.


DK Quality of Life Changes

-Punching a shield next to the edge causes you to SD. This is super dumb and needs to be fixed. It needs to be able to grab the ledge much earlier.

-Side B sourspot unsafe is on hit. Needs more base knockback to prevent this.

-Ftilt is also unsafe on hit early on. Needs enough base knockback to make it safe at 0%.

-Fsmash whiffs when they are close. A move as laggy and awful as his Fsmash shouldn't be whiffing like that. A hitbox closer to his body or just bigger hitboxes in general would fix this.

All these will be taken into consideration and discussed for for sure. Very high chance that all three will end up on the "official" suggestion.


-Up B's landing pose (the flexing his muscles part) is dumb and should be removed. It forces you to always go for the ledge and takes away from your platform game. Part of the reason everyone flocks to his Kong Cyclone custom is that it doesn't have this problem (on top of it's other strengths). The landing pose is just an unnecessary penalty for what used to be good positioning.

I need more specific input on this. Because if your problem essentially comes down to you wanting to cut some of DKs ending lag on upB then this request will probably not be accepted.


Ganon Changes

-Warlock Thrust needs less cooldown. It is a unique highly disjointed option that it hindered by its abysmall risk/reward. It needs less cooldown to bring the risk/reward to normal levels.

Be more specific on how the risk/reward ratio of the move is supposedly skewed. Also, you're welcome to suggest numbers if you think the cooldown should be cut.


-Warlock Punch and Blade loses their super armor when you B-reversal them or do them in the air. That is a weird and unnecessary quirk of both moves.

Doesn't B-Reversing these moves increase their knockback? If so, I'd say it justifies the removal of the SA frames.


-T-Rex grab hitbox could use some buffs. Its lack of reach makes him a little too exploitable on defense for someone who has a hard time mounting a capable offense.

This has already been suggested by Samurai Panda and is taken into consideration.


-His jab could be a little bit faster or less laggy. Perhaps a little of both. This would help him a lot vs characters like Shiek who open him up for free.

Possible but not something I'm very fond of because Ganon's jab is already one of his better options imo. If Ganon's grab and initial dash frames are improved then buffing his already solid jab might prove superfluous.


-SH AC Dair is something everyone wants back. It isn't necessary, but it would be great to have it back.

Unlikely to happen.

Responses in bold & red, within the quotation tags. Please keep in mind that I've already acknowledged that Ganondorf still needs some buffs and that I will get in direct contact with the Ganon community on this matter.

Yes. Kirby suffers from "hitstun" after successfully landing a move, while the opponent doesn't. http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbys-epic-guide-ssb4-3ds.367840/page-7#post-18074328

Yeah, no way this won't be suggested then. This is ridiculous and should've been removed with the very first patch.

 

[DarkDeity15]

This is basically what I tried, only better. Good job. Hopefully this thread remains active.

 

[MagiusNecros]

As a Bowser main I feel they need to fix his Flying Slam when going off the stage. For example in the same training session on Battlefield, Omega Stages, FD, and so on and so forth on a variety of characters Bowser and the opponent would either die at the same time or Bowser would die first and the opponent would be able to recover.

The problem I want fixed is to make it 100% consistent. It should not be inconsistent as it is. I should not be killing both and only killing one person in the same session.

------------------

If Bowser were to receive any buff I believe Tough Guy(his ability to shrug off weak attacks until reaching 60%) should extend to all small projectiles. As Bowser has a very difficult time approaching with no projectiles as his own in a neutral game setting.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

As a Bowser main I feel they need to fix his Flying Slam when going off the stage. For example in the same training session on Battlefield, Omega Stages, FD, and so on and so forth on a variety of characters Bowser and the opponent would either die at the same time or Bowser would die first and the opponent would be able to recover.

The problem I want fixed is to make it 100% consistent. It should not be inconsistent as it is. I should not be killing both and only killing one person in the same session.

This will most certainly be added though not as a character specific thing for Bowser but for all suicide-moves.

 

[HeavyLobster]

As far as the armor on Warlock Punch and Blade goes, I don't really mind losing the armor on the B-reversed variants, but keeping the armor for aerial versions would be big for the viability of those two moves, as they could then act as pseudo-counters for laggy moves and cover Ganondorf's landing against stuff like Flare Blitz.

 

[DarkDeity15]

This will most certainly be added though not as a character specific thing for Bowser but for all suicide-moves.

Wasn't this done on purpose though? Compared to the Ganoncide, the Bowsercide was much easier to pull off and had no risks whatsoever, so Nintendo nerfed the move in the recent patch by making you and your opponent die at the same time/making you die first. This was intentional.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I must ask then about direction.
I'll use Swordfighter as an example as he's probably one of the more obvious examples.
Considerable lag on his aerials, lack of damage on them as well except for U-air and a well placed F-air.
Laggy ground game that lacks weight. Throws do mediocre damage, and his D-air/U-air as set-up throws fall short of that goal. There is several more moves we could dissect and note their problems.
If you are advocating a buff then, then what do you say in order to remain as "truthful" to Nintendo's vision? His considerable lag? The damage? Unintuitive Knockback strength and angles?

Likewise with Kirby, I could talk about Inhales Copy ability or the lag, but to me it's biggest offense is that it is shieldable. Which is one of the stronger reasons for Leaping Inhale as the preferred customs, before we get into that it is less likely to be punished, its greater ability to gimp/reposition and recovery benefits. Inhales has for a very long time been a lackluster ability with multiple problems, being hit right after you copy is just another flaw, given the ease of being knocked out of copy in general. This is not to advocate that the move should be perfect but reiterating if there is an expectation of how we tackle these suggestions? If it's me I say Kirbys Inhale should go through Shields. Turning it into a true Command Grab, creates the proper Risk/Reward ratio by increasing the probability of success. Leaping inhale still retains its benefits as a positioning tool but Inhale would now be comparable on a general level, and Kirby could utilize his main gimmick to actually talk about his MU balance instead of his inhale-less game.


Returning to Mii fighter, again his damage is low, he lacks set-ups and his projectiles don't create many situations for him, partially because of his lag after use, and their hit mechanics. He is capable of going completely devoid of any projectiles but Slash Launcher is mediocre, and Neutral 3 isn't a kill move to boot, with its damage also being unreliable given the ability of some characters to leave the hitbox. Up 1 is completely godawful, with piss poor damage, and piss poor recovery.
To me giving him the D-throw set-up to potential trap with early U-air/utilts, F-air and N-air would create a better balance for him given otherwise unreliable and/or poor rewards as a whole.

 

[Lavani]

It's not so much about balancing DDD as a character as it is about fixing the ludicrous risk/reward ratio of that move. As things stand right now throwing out a Gordo is insanely risky - especially for a projectile - to the point where DDD is better off not using it at all because the reward is quite pathetic in comparison to how much risk you take. The only common situation where the Gordo Toss can be reasonably used is when the opponent is offstage - in which case DDD has much better tools than throwing out a Gordo. In every other situation Gordo Toss is either extremely likely to backfire or simply not going to do anything at all.

If somebody has a good counter-argument to this, I'd sure love to hear it.

Thanks, much better than I could've put it myself. As interesting or as unique as the move may currently be, it doesn't do anything to patch up his flaws, and in the vast majority of situations you could use it it's typically "just another option" rather than that holy grail move you're so glad you had.

The Luigi suggestion will be ignored for now because it's unclear whether this is a specific issue that directly hurts Luigi's viability. The character is generally unexplored and whether he needs a buff at all is questionable. He doesn't seem utterly unviable to the point where he can't do without a buff. Maybe at a later point, certainly not now.

I wouldn't really consider this suggestion a buff. It doesn't actually improve the character's capabilities, it just makes him more accessible by not imposing a massive execution barrier to optimally recover with him. Players like Boss and Mr.ConCon may be able to recover like this, but the vast majority of Luigi players would've burned their double jump to get that height with the cyclone and would've died. My suggestion is merely to not require the hands of God to recover like this, which if anything should encourage him to be further explored as more people will be physically capable of playing him optimally.

If Bowser were to receive any buff I believe Tough Guy(his ability to shrug off weak attacks until reaching 60%) should extend to all small projectiles. As Bowser has a very difficult time approaching with no projectiles as his own in a neutral game setting.

Bowser's gimmick is to passively resist weak hitstun. It doesn't magically stop working at 60%; Megaman's lemons don't start stunning him until mid 300%s iirc (EDIT: more specifically, 373%).

 

[TTTTTsd]

Increase Dr. Mario's run speed

- Dr. Mario is a character who is good at camping and forcing an approach against anyone he can do this to, but otherwise approaching is difficult and needlessly slow, due to an unbelievably low running speed. This hampers Dr. Mario's CQC and up close game which consists of reliable strings thanks to the removal of vectoring, allowing him to rack up damage and kill. A run speed on the level of say, slightly slower than Falco but higher than what he has right now would not massively break the character but rather give him additional options on the ground. This would allow Dr. Mario to get in slightly better but still not incredibly easy, and make his basic gameplan of either "Force an approach" or "Break through" easier in both aspects.

 

[FimPhym]

It's not so much about balancing DDD as a character as it is about fixing the ludicrous risk/reward ratio of that move. As things stand right now throwing out a Gordo is insanely risky - especially for a projectile - to the point where DDD is better off not using it at all because the reward is quite pathetic in comparison to how much risk you take. The only common situation where the Gordo Toss can be reasonably used is when the opponent is offstage - in which case DDD has much better tools than throwing out a Gordo. In every other situation Gordo Toss is either extremely likely to backfire or simply not going to do anything at all.

If somebody has a good counter-argument to this, I'd sure love to hear it.

The counter argument is to look at things from the perspective of am designer, not a player. It would certainly be easy to make gordo more effective and reduce some of dedede's weakness. It is also extremely unambitious game design.

First of all, mechanically gordo is unique among projectiles. Having a insanely good projectile that has a downside to it is interesting design space, and it's not worth throwing it away because it's currently not in a great spot power level wise. The gameplay of being able to reflect gordos or even reflect reflected gordos is fantastic and should be explored. If anything, the problem is that ganondorf did not receive a projectile with this functionality instead.

It is trivially easy to make a character stronger (look at the lazy buffs given to shulk for that), so theres no need to rob yourself of good design. Instead, dedede could receive appropriate buffs elsewhere and instead of tuning gordo to fix dedede's power level (remember, that part is easy as a designer) we tune it to function as "unfair projectile that can be used against you" with less skewed risk/reward. Getting players to use unique tools in a fun way that you imagine as a designer is more challenging than straight buffing, but a worthy goal.

That's why in general, threads similar to this provoke so many bad suggestions. We are all players here, but not all designers, and the desire of a player is very different from that of a designer. Players always overestimate how hard it is to make a character weaker or stronger (it's viritually always easy) and under estimate the importance of preserving character weaknesses. Every character should have weaknesses and having them be distinct and troubling to the player is a good thing. That won't stop many from asking for changes that homogenise characters by minimising weaknesses, though.

 

[Nintenpro]

I don't think DDD's Gordos need changes, they are already very good. You shouldn't use them like a projectile, more like a zoning tool: especially with the upward throw which can be use to force your adversaire to do something (really usefull when he is on the ledge), the others throws can be good for punishing a landing

It's not so much about balancing DDD as a character as it is about fixing the ludicrous risk/reward ratio of that move. As things stand right now throwing out a Gordo is insanely risky - especially for a projectile - to the point where DDD is better off not using it at all because the reward is quite pathetic in comparison to how much risk you take.

It's not as risky as you claim because if you throw a gordo, you can just shield because you know your opponent can reflect it. And the reward (~11-14%) is really good. You shouldn't throw a gordo if your opponent can easily reflect it.
If DDD's Gordos vanished on hit instead of being reflected, they would become insanely good. The only problem I can see is gordos' behaviour when he hits a projectile.

 

[Lozjam]

As a Ganondorf main, I do agree that a standing grab with a longer reach is completely necessary. I love Ganondorf, and I would like to see using grabs more offensively has a viable option.
The biggest buff I would like to see is take away the tech on flame choke. An opponent being able to tech flame choke is a huge hindrance during a competitive match, and if you read it incorrectly, your opponent can punish Ganondorf severely. Flame choke is a semi-hard move to hit anyway, so why punish the player for hitting with it? Myself, and almost any Ganondorf main will tell you this will go a long way.
The only other change I would like to see, was more aerial mobility, bring SH AC Dair back, and give him a slightly larger jump and a tad more aerial mobility.
Just these changes will go an extremely long way of making an amazing character.
A faster dash attack would also be nice, but I believe the buffs above will make Ganondorf a better character, better than with only an increase in dash attack and grab reach. We do not want to make a character seem unfair either. I believe better aerial mobility more than makes up for approaching, especially since Ganondorf has amazing aerials.

 

[Shaya]

The premise of this topic existing (over allowing 'wish list threads') is that we try to look at things at a design level. I really appreciate your post FimPhym.

Anything that starts with "I need this" is doing it wrong and needs to stop and think about it.
Ganondorf was picked to have a bad grab for a reason. Zelda was picked to have a bad grab for a reason.
Things like this shouldn't be brought up, it's purely asking for a buff on something that hasn't been different for 3 games already and seems to be, by Sakurai's standards an inherent weakness.

You can add or change mechanics on Gordos but the question is how/why?
Reflecting it back seems to be apart of his character. It isn't bad enough which you actually get punished for throwing it out before you can shield unless you're on top of them (in which case why are you using a laggy start up projectile?). Perhaps it isn't strong enough for pressing an advantage, but the question is how/why could this be changed?
I may be wrong about it's mechanics, but can't dedede reflect a gordo hit back at him with certain moves? If so, then perhaps that should be more accentuated so it's more like Link vs Ganondorf in OoT (bouncing balls of light back to each other that gets faster until someone messes up). If not, then I don't know.
If you take away a few frames of start up or end lag the gordo throw you are 'straight buffing' him, but perhaps a small few number tweaks is all it needs. Your job, should you choose to accept it is to discern what exact numbers need to be changed and by how much.

 

[Lavani]

The counter argument is to look at things from the perspective of am designer, not a player. It would certainly be easy to make gordo more effective and reduce some of dedede's weakness. It is also extremely unambitious game design.

First of all, mechanically gordo is unique among projectiles. Having a insanely good projectile that has a downside to it is interesting design space, and it's not worth throwing it away because it's currently not in a great spot power level wise. The gameplay of being able to reflect gordos or even reflect reflected gordos is fantastic and should be explored. If anything, the problem is that ganondorf did not receive a projectile with this functionality instead.

It is trivially easy to make a character stronger (look at the lazy buffs given to shulk for that), so theres no need to rob yourself of good design. Instead, dedede could receive appropriate buffs elsewhere and instead of tuning gordo to fix dedede's power level (remember, that part is easy as a designer) we tune it to function as "unfair projectile that can be used against you" with less skewed risk/reward. Getting players to use unique tools in a fun way that you imagine as a designer is more challenging than straight buffing, but a worthy goal.

That's why in general, threads similar to this provoke so many bad suggestions. We are all players here, but not all designers, and the desire of a player is very different from that of a designer. Players always overestimate how hard it is to make a character weaker or stronger (it's viritually always easy) and under estimate the importance of preserving character weaknesses. Every character should have weaknesses and having them be distinct and troubling to the player is a good thing. That won't stop many from asking for changes that homogenise characters by minimising weaknesses, though.

A valid point.

Keeping that in mind, would you find Gordos not being reflected by projectiles - but keeping their current behavior otherwise - a more preferable change? Dedede would receive a much-needed tool to punish projectile spam (an even better one than my initial proposition, to boot), while keeping the drawback of physical hits reflecting it that make it unsafe to mindlessly spam and keep it unique as a projectile.

 

[FimPhym]

Lavani, that exact change is one that I privately wished for for a while now, but didn't bother posting. I suspect it is too strong and that it is player bias for me to want it, but the difference between throwing gordo through charizard's fire breath and having it reflected between patch 1.0.3 to 1.0.4 is drastic. I'd have to play with that gordo to understand if it is even okay and preserves what I see as an intentional weak neutral game for dedede (to compensate for his prowess in advantage time).

I'm hesitant to seriously suggest anything because I don't believe my ideas are high enough quality, but I did want to chime in on the conflicting desires of players and designers. Good luck to everyone that wants to try their hand at it, though. Design is fun.

Edit: to shaya, yes the rallying can already happen in matches and sometimes does for me. You can get a quite liberal window to catch it with side b, it has a special animation for 'catching' the gordo and rethrowing it at normal speed. Alternatively the higher risk/reward is to use up tilt or an aerial to reflect it back at high speed. If you get the opponent scared of being hit out of the recovery of the attack they used to reflect the gordo, you can somewhat reclaim it as a tool. Somewhat. Overall the risk/reward is probably just not quite good enough, but the fun gameplay is sort of there. No clue how to change it, I just like talking about dedede and you gave me a good excuse.

 

[Shaya]

Expecting big character changes is a bit unlikely, but if you take a look at say Yoshi, who's traditionally been a middle to low tier character who's primary weakness was his shield / lack of out of shield options, you can see what something so small as allowing jump oos changes for him. He also got a slew of other changes/buffs and that's why he's suddenly seen as a high/top tier with a degree of obnoxiousness that people struggle with. Eggs and Egglay were already good in Brawl, yet when you take away one of his significant weaknesses Yoshi suddenly becomes abusive and harder to deal with by most people's standards.

A really small change design one can have an infinite degree of impacts. A 1% change in a number can also skew a character's capabilities (going by league of legends standards) because if you think about a scientific experiment of a game played a million times where however many scenarios exist which that 1% could actually have meaningful impact, as it tends towards infinite something that was 50:50 before could suddenly be pushed towards a much bigger skew.

You shouldn't necessarily want your character to suddenly be shot into high/top tier. And maybe a weakness change or otherwise won't do that, but it still should be as well thought through as possible.

 

[Big O]

I don't know how I overlooked this, but the C-Stick smash attack behavior needs to be hotfixed ASAP. Holding the C-Stick charges smashes and disables the Control Stick. Both of these are awful and need to be fixed.


Spikes being techable while standing only serves two purposes. It makes them unsafe on hit and prevents them from ever being able to combo/KO. I'm sure most people agree that this is silly and would rather it be fixed.


DK's jab combo doesn't work until about 25% unless you hit with the tip. Needs more base knockback to fix this and less knockback growth to link reliably at higher %'s.


DK's punch charging is bugged. It adds stacks to the charge at the beginning of the next swing instead of at the end of the swing. In practice, this means the first swing in any charge attempt never adds to the charge. Instead of taking 10 swings to fully charge, it takes 10 + N swings with N being the number of times you attempt to charge (minimum of 1). You can charge 1 swing infinitely and never get any charge. You get full charge in 20 swings doing 10 sets of 2. It did not behave this way in Melee or Brawl, so it is definitely bugged behavior.


DK's Up B landing pose is a consequence of transitioning from the air to the ground while during an aerial Up B. Before, if you positioned yourself correctly you could transition from aerial Up B to grounded Up B seamlessly. Now, if at any point during your Up B you transition from the air to the ground you skip or reset to the endlag portion of the grounded Up B (the flexing pose). You can land 1 frame before an aerial Up B ends, and still suffer the full endlag penalty of the grounded Up B. You can land right after you start an aerial Up B (using slopes like in YI Brawl) and doing so will transition into... the endlag of grounded Up B. I'm not really asking for Up B to have it's lag reduced. I'm asking for his standard Up B to transition smoothly between aerial and grounded again instead of the jarring forced endlag. It already does this with Kong Cyclone.


Warlock Thrust is a high risk/low reward move. The risk is high because if you miss, the endlag is like 60+ frames long. The reward is low because when it hits them with the disjointed explosion, it only does 9 damage and it resets to neutral. As an option used to poke from midrange, the reward part is mostly fine. However, the risk of the move when whiffed or blocked is very drastic.

A medium risk/low reward poke would be more in line with a character archetype like Ganon's. I suggest lowering the endlag significantly to bring it down to medium risk. I don't like throwing numbers out there for these kinds of things in general, but I'd say somewhere around 20 frames.


Samus jab combo doesn't link reliably at almost all %'s. It needs more base knockback and less knockback growth to fix this.


WFT's grab whiffs against small characters. It needs either lower grab hitboxes or just bigger hitboxes to fix this.

 

[Shaya]

Samus jab combo doesn't link reliably at almost all %'s. It needs more base knockback and less knockback growth to fix this.

Her jab 2 has highish start up, but Jab 1 actually has a low-ish IASA. It's designed to not be combo'd into, but rather reacting to it's hitconfirm. This is highlighted by in-game tips as well. ZSS brawl jab was the same and it was used to GREAT EFFECT. It's a use case people aren't used to thinking about.

I'd think if this usage isn't effective, it should have its base knockback increased slightly with the scaling being the same or slightly less. Jab 2 should perhaps be given more use cases for the jab1 reaction to be successful (slight increase in damage or changing of the IASA frame so perhaps it's "safe" on shield)