Community Patch Project

[Cornstalk]

Got a few for Lizardon worth mentioning:

Jab 1 hit stun
The hit stun on Jab 1 is almost non-existent. This means you're practically required to mash the button as fast as possible to make sure Jab 2 lands at low %, other wise the opponent will get their feet on the ground and can simply shield Jab 2 and Jab 3. The solution here is to add a few frames more to Jab 1 hit stun (couldn't get you exact numbers, but 3-5 frames would likely be enough) so a slight delay in bring out Jab 2 doesn't cause the entire jab string to be escapable. The rational behind this is more along the lines of consistency with other jab strings, as I haven't noticed escapable frames on any other jab.

Back-Air landing lag
This is a risk vs reward issue. The landing lag on this move is pretty close to what Link suffers on his D-air. It requires a sweet spot to be an actual threat of KO. There hit box is also fairly small and quick, leaving Charizard vulnerable for most of the move. A small reduction in landing lag would make this attack a little more worthwhile to take a shot at using, particularly against skilled air-dodgers who currently get a free punish against a charizard that tries to use this and lands on stage with lag.

To the point: The landing lag is not in line with the KO power compared to characters with similar powerful but much safer attacks

Up-Smash (lack of) Linking Hits
The hit boxes on this move are atrociously spaced out and strange. Considering moves like Link's F-smash and Zero Suit's Up and Over-B were patched to be better about linking, there's no reason for Charizard to be left out in the cold. The move currently and frequently fails to connect the multiple hits. This can often lead to weak knock back that leaves Charizard vulnerable to counter attack despite successfully landing a smash.

Up-B Custom 2 (Rising Cyclone) often has the same problem. Sure it's a custom move, but why shouldn't get it get the same link-friendly fix that other moves have received?


So there you go. 3 moves that could use the tiniest of tweaks to be consistent with the rest of the cast and 1 move that has too high of a risk for the reward problem.

 

[Karsticles]

These will not be considered. Neither character has shown any signs of needing buffs.

I thought this was a community project, not just you deciding what goes and what does not. Some of the changes I listed, like a grab whiffing right in front of your character, should get fixed. "Bowser does not need buffs" - since when is this a deciding factor on a change like this? Characters should keep broken moves if they are good?

Apparently you get to decide what is considered. What a farce of a thread. Sheer idiocy abounds.

 

[Big O]

Her jab 2 has highish start up, but Jab 1 actually has a low-ish IASA. It's designed to not be combo'd into, but rather reacting to it's hitconfirm. This is highlighted by in-game tips as well. ZSS brawl jab was the same and it was used to GREAT EFFECT. It's a use case people aren't used to thinking about.

I'd think if this usage isn't effective, it should have its base knockback increased slightly with the scaling being the same or slightly less. Jab 2 should perhaps be given more use cases for the jab1 reaction to be successful (slight increase in damage or changing of the IASA frame so perhaps it's "safe" on shield)

I think even on it's own, jab 1 needs more base knockback to be useful in that respect. Even if allowing combos into jab 2 isn't a priority, currently it practically isn't even an option. Personally I'd be okay with it only linking when close. I agree that if it linked at all ranges reliably it would be a bit too strong.

 

[ShenaniganMan]

Edit: Apparently this posted before i was finished. Disregard this, sorry!

 

[Shaya]

I thought this was a community project, not just you deciding what goes and what does not. Some of the changes I listed, like a grab whiffing right in front of your character, should get fixed. "Bowser does not need buffs" - since when is this a deciding factor on a change like this? Characters should keep broken moves if they are good?

Apparently you get to decide what is considered. What a farce of a thread. Sheer idiocy abounds.

It's a community project about understanding design and polishing those mechanics to be better.
You've just given a list of things that would purely be buffs, without giving a substantiate reason as to why this needs to happen at all.
The side-b not grabbing close could have a reason for this.
Bowser always having lag? I haven't heard about this so if you can explain further that would be great, if it seems buggy/unintentional it should get addressed.

I think even on it's own, jab 1 needs more base knockback to be useful in that respect. Even if allowing combos into jab 2 isn't a priority, currently it practically isn't even an option. Personally I'd be okay with it only linking when close. I agree that if it linked at all ranges reliably it would be a bit too strong.

Well, Marth's jab is pretty much in the same boat for the third game in a row. It isn't safe on hit upwards of 80%, doesn't combo into anything EVER (rarely jab2 and never if you try to act out of it), has a high end lag. I'd probably prefer Samus' jab on Marth/Lucina because I can at least poke something and dash or hold shield and be relatively safe. Right now it's only use is an anti-airish poke (do you know how many of these Marth's have that's kinda better?) or for an edge guard poke (that isn't safe on shield).

 

[ShenaniganMan]

Meta Knight
Ftilt 1st hit animation still does not match hitboxes. Frequently goes straight through the opponent.

Down Special
One of MK's few kill options, it also happens to be terrible. It is easily read, and as a movement option has too much lag to be useful for fakeouts or approaches. In terms of killing power, it has absurdly large hitboxes, but it also has ludicrous start/end lag. Any competent opponent will essentially be aware of how you plan to use this move; as a killing blow at high percents. Because of this, using it will, in any given situation, lead to a punish. If you attempt to maneuver with it, you will be punished out of the reappearing animation, or on startup. If you use it in an attempt to kill, you will be punished out of immense endlag, and it will almost never hit due to the easy read your opponent will get. I suggest this:
Increase the viability of Dimensional Cape as a movement option. As it stands now moving with this is very risky, and you would be better off not using it to move at all. I would propose that you have less lag on the end of the move, or perhaps the ability to cancel the end with a dash or shield. This would mean that moving with Dimensional Cape is actually a viable tactic, and would mean that your opponent would have a harder time reading your going for the kill. In addition it would mean that MK's approach game would be stronger, one of his main faults at the moment. It gives MK a more versatile movement option, which I feel would make him more viable and, perhaps most importantly, more fun.

 

[Big O]

Well, Marth's jab is pretty much in the same boat for the third game in a row. It isn't safe on hit upwards of 80%, doesn't combo into anything EVER (rarely jab2 and never if you try to act out of it), has a high end lag. I'd probably prefer Samus' jab on Marth/Lucina because I can at least poke something and dash or hold shield and be relatively safe. Right now it's only use is an anti-airish poke (do you know how many of these Marth's have that's kinda better?) or for an edge guard poke (that isn't safe on shield).

Lol I actually always forget he even has a jab. In Brawl, Side B did everything what it was supposed to and more so I guess I've mentally blocked out it's existence.

I think everyone deserves jabs that are at the very least safe on hit. I also think being able to combo into jab 2 when close wouldn't be out of place considering the IASA on it isn't very good. Accomplishing the former would take care of the latter too.

 

[Karsticles]

It's a community project about understanding design and polishing those mechanics to be better.
You've just given a list of things that would purely be buffs, without giving a substantiate reason as to why this needs to happen at all.
The side-b not grabbing close could have a reason for this.
Bowser always having lag? I haven't heard about this so if you can explain further that would be great, if it seems buggy/unintentional it should get addressed.



Well, Marth's jab is pretty much in the same boat for the third game in a row. It isn't safe on hit upwards of 80%, doesn't combo into anything EVER (rarely jab2 and never if you try to act out of it), has a high end lag. I'd probably prefer Samus' jab on Marth/Lucina because I can at least poke something and dash or hold shield and be relatively safe. Right now it's only use is an anti-airish poke (do you know how many of these Marth's have that's kinda better?) or for an edge guard poke (that isn't safe on shield).

Run up to Ness or Luigi in training mode and use Bowser's side B. It will whiff. This is likely an oversight as it only occurs when running into the character.

I gave my reasoning. It is a command grab with minimal range. It shouldn't miss up close against thin characters.

The OP simply said Bowser shouldn't get any buffs at all, which is moronic. The only change I didn't support with an argument is the Megaman one, because it is universally agreed to be a poor mechanic.

All of this ignores the fact that this isn't really a community list if one person is calling the shots on what gets in. He should just be honest and call it a list he wants to make, and he appreciates suggestions.

 

[Ranias]

I don't know how I overlooked this, but the C-Stick smash attack behavior needs to be hotfixed ASAP. Holding the C-Stick charges smashes and disables the Control Stick. Both of these are awful and need to be fixed.

I agree that this is a problem. I want to be able to use the C-stick in the air like before. This seems like a design flaw that makes the C-stick lose its previous robustness, and I don't see why this shouldn't be implemented.

Wasn't this done on purpose though? Compared to the Ganoncide, the Bowsercide was much easier to pull off and had no risks whatsoever, so Nintendo nerfed the move in the recent patch by making you and your opponent die at the same time/making you die first. This was intentional.

It doesn't really make sense that these many characters can recover after being Bowsercided: http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/2mptty/list_of_character_that_can_recover_after_bowsers/

Also, the stage choice shouldn't have to be a factor in if Bowsercide is viable or not. It currently either kills Bowser first or kills both characters at the same time, depending on the stage. Seems like a bug to me. It should consistently do one or the other.

I think the main problem with Flying Slam is that the general population isn't informed on how it behaves. More control of the slam is allotted to the player with least percentage. It could be fixed if everyone knew this information in the first place. (Maybe via mandatory hint when fighting Bowser).

 

[DarkDeity15]

It's a community project about understanding design and polishing those mechanics to be better.
You've just given a list of things that would purely be buffs, without giving a substantiate reason as to why this needs to happen at all.
The side-b not grabbing close could have a reason for this.
Bowser always having lag? I haven't heard about this so if you can explain further that would be great, if it seems buggy/unintentional it should get addressed.



Well, Marth's jab is pretty much in the same boat for the third game in a row. It isn't safe on hit upwards of 80%, doesn't combo into anything EVER (rarely jab2 and never if you try to act out of it), has a high end lag. I'd probably prefer Samus' jab on Marth/Lucina because I can at least poke something and dash or hold shield and be relatively safe. Right now it's only use is an anti-airish poke (do you know how many of these Marth's have that's kinda better?) or for an edge guard poke (that isn't safe on shield).

Marth's jab was always terrible. It's too unsafe to have any sort of use. I honestly would love to have it be fast enough to be a combo starter depending on the angle you hit your opponent with. As far as I'm concerned, Marth has no consistent combos to rack damage with. And about that; I find Marth has a tough time killing, and landing tippers isn't always an option since you can't space them perfectly every time. Uncharged Shield Breaker having more kill potential would help with that. Not sure what else would though.

 

[Cheezy23]

Understanding the mistake I made with my first post here (sorry! and if I make another one i apologize,) could I suggest something a little less specific?

So when you get hit by, let's say...Jigglypuff's side-smash at 150%, let's say, you see a flash, the screen shakes, and a red lightning bolt thing comes over the hit, and whatever character you are (at 150% you shouldn't be recovering from that side smash) get's killed and loses a stock/point. This isn't about any character per se, just a visual mechanic that bothers me.

See, there are a bunch of moves (turnaround warlock punch, Ike's side-smash, etc don't quote me on either of those) that can kill at early percents, which is fine. My problem is that after a while of playing Smash 4, you get accustomed to saying in your mind "okay, the red lightning just happened, I should be able to take a slight breath before my opponent revives." I don't want to speak for everyone, but it just happens to me all of the time. But here's the problem: that red lightning is very inconsistent. Sometimes it happens when you just hit someone offscreen, and sometimes it doesn't happen when you launch someone to kill.

And it isn't just the red lightning. For instance, just recently I was playing as Captain Falcon and was launched off of the side at a somewhat high percent. But the red lightning didn't appear. And as I was getting launched, I thought to myself "oh, okay, I should be able to get back on stage fine, I was launched pretty slowly" so I used my double jump to stop flying, and the moment I did, I died. Maybe this is me being ignorant about something, but doesn't that seem a little weird?

I understand how this might be pointless to some people, and might be considered as spam considering that it doesn't exactly fix a real, tangible problem, it just seemed like something I might throw out there. It's happened to me a number of times, just seems like something they could make more consistent. Sorry if this is spam again, I'm a n00b (not an excuse, I know) so I don't really know much yet


Edit: just realized I forgot to add why I think this should be fixed: we all like consistency. I like Palutena's consistent d-throw into n-air or up-air for instance. I think it would be nice if the signs of death were consistent too.

 

[BSP]

Spikes being techable while standing only serves two purposes. It makes them unsafe on hit and prevents them from ever being able to combo/KO. I'm sure most people agree that this is silly and would rather it be fixed.

I don't know how I overlooked this, but the C-Stick smash attack behavior needs to be hotfixed ASAP. Holding the C-Stick charges smashes and disables the Control Stick. Both of these are awful and need to be fixed.
.

I will second these. I know for a fact that if I fair grounded Marth with Mario at any % that he can tech it, I get up B'd/Utilted/etc. for free.

I know this is a small tidbit to post, but Gheb specifically said it shouldn't be changed unless a large majority of the community agreed with it. I would poll for it, tbh.

; tagging @ A2ZOMG and @ HeroMystic since I'm quoting them and they might have things to add.

Reduced ending lag on Utilt.

See the quotes:

Mario's combos are character and percent specific, in several matchups can either be interrupted by fast N-airs or can be jumped out of. Whenever Mario's combos don't work, he has some of the lowest damage per hit in the game. This isn't helped that Mario's best KO options, F-smash and gimps, are both very conditional, while his more reliable KO options, U-smash and D-smash, are both on the weaker side, usually KOing fresh closer to the 120 range.

That and without Gust Cape, he really doesn't have good options to get out of juggles or avoid edgeguards. Combined with Mario's high reliance on his midair jump to successfully recover, he's overall one of the least durable characters in the game.

Doc probably is better.

The more I play this game, the more I realize how insanely weak Mario's damage-per-hit is. It's insane that Mario can land a 10-hit attack string but that only adds up to ~50%, while literally everyone else in the game can reach that amount without putting themselves in so much risk that Mario has to. F-Smash is terrible compared to how it was in Brawl (RIP Stutter Step), and Mario has no reliable kill option except D-air to Up-B on a high platform on Battlefield. U-Smash has to be relied on as a punisher, and F-Smash has to be a hard read. D-Smash is used if you're desperate.

But that's not what makes this such a dilemma. The reason why this hurts Mario so badly is because the competition relies heavily on footsies, and combos are just surplus. Doc is just straight up better at Footsies, and even if he isn't doing 10-hit attack strings, he doesn't need them because his KO power is supreme. Mario has to work way too hard to get damage, and then has to work even harder to get a KO.

Edgeguarding and gimping are his only real saving graces, but if I'm frank, his edgeguarding is mediocre at best while his gimping is slightly above average thanks to Cape and FLUDD.

I'm starting to realize what A2ZOMG has been saying all along.

In general, this game can be summarized in 3 states: neutral, advantage, and disadvantage. Mario is very poor at neutral. While he does have good frame data regarding his attacks and decent mobility, he has no way to safely apply good pressure in the neutral situation. No matter what he does, he is at risk of trading, a problem that is amplified by how low his damage per hit is in relation to the cast.

When disadvantaged, Mario is at a complete loss. He has no aerials or specials to cover his descent well at all, and his recovery is quite linear and easily intercepted. Simply hitting him out of his double jump is usually enough to gimp him.

With that being said, Mario is clearly disadvantaged at neutral and when at a disadvantage. To make up for this, can he please have a good advantageous state?

Right now, Mario has to put in a lot of effort to get in on an opponent and get into an advantageous state. The problem is that the reward for doing so is too low. Mario is supposed to be a combo centric character, but his combo centric moves just do not support this. His Utilt can be jumped out and Nair'd out of by a large portion of the cast, and I think most would agree that this is his main combo move.

As of now, Mario's combos are too unreliable to justify his faults. His low % combos aren't even guaranteed although he will certainly be dealing with:

Losing the neutral game
Being juggled easily
Losing trades against most of the cast
Struggling to find KOs due to lack of setups, and his good KO moves requiring hard reads
Being extremely vulnerable to edgeguarding with a linear recovery

At least tighten up his low % combo game. As of now, he just doesn't have much going for him and is outclassed by characters such as Diddy and Sheik, who actually have tight combos off of their grabs and tilts. This wouldn't be an overbuff either, since Mario would still have to deal with all of the things I just listed.

Now, the community at large will probably disagree with this and say Mario is fine. I disagree for the reasons stated above, and I also would point out the lack of tournament results with Mario placing high. The highest result I've seen for him is a 13th at KTAR XI by Infern0. That's pretty good, but we want characters in this game to be good, right? Top players claim that Mario is good, but then he doesn't appear next to their names. Regardless, you can't really argue the numbers. They are clearly stacked against Mario.

 

[Asdioh]

Teching meteors while grounded is a complaint I've had for a while, I just forgot to mention it. It's a needless defensive mechanic. If you wanted to defend against the meteor, you should have shielded in time, or dodged, or hit them first. I am very against being punished for successfully landing hits, as you can tell from my first post.

Also yes, cstick should be fixed to be like brawl. Having your momentum stop when you do an aerial really sucks.

 

[Balgorxz]

-UTilt explosive area of effect increased
Since warlock punch has superarmor now utilt is completely useless, this can change by increasing the area of effect of the Utilt making it viable for edguarding and team battles, I didn't propose making it faster because that is against character design IMO.
Another change that can be considered is making the charging animation actually having a hitbox the first frames, something like a reverse Falcon UTilt sending the oponent upwards.

META
The main issue with some characters that I've noticed is that the hitstun of some moves is lower than their ending animations making the oponent able to react faster than you always, making the move useless against characters with fast nairs(pacman).

 

[Shaya]

The OP simply said Bowser shouldn't get any buffs at all, which is moronic. The only change I didn't support with an argument is the Megaman one, because it is universally agreed to be a poor mechanic.

All of this ignores the fact that this isn't really a community list if one person is calling the shots on what gets in. He should just be honest and call it a list he wants to make, and he appreciates suggestions.

* We deeply respect Nintendo's work - Smash 4 is a piece of work close to perfection. Therefore we will only make as many suggestions as necessary.

Sure he may be calling the shots on what gets in at this capacity, but he isn't going to ignore communal backing. There's mostly a logic there that I can attest to, so let me try to flesh it out a little.

Assume this: Sakurai and the Balance team aren't idiots. They didn't draw numbers out of a hat to decide what a character can or cannot do. For every number that exists, a decision was likely made.
Unless you think something is an oversight (a special category and highly subjective) then asking for it to change requires a reasoning for it to change, and there would have to be a design logic that they can understand as well as be aligned with how they see the game.
I think there are tons of things that can validate an argument about a change; previous game comparisons as well as current meta comparisons, potential oversights, strengths of a move being too 'weak' for their efforts, a move too limited to be usable. I'm sure there are other things.

Your post was ALL STRAIGHT BUFFS, with one thing "flying slam no longer misses at close range" being something to talk about. You cannot expect someone to go through a post which didn't follow thread rules/guidelines when you've obviously not taken the time to read/understand the thread guidelines itself (if you had, you wouldn't have made a post like that in the first place).

 

[A2ZOMG]

snip

Tagging someone in an edited post doesn't give a notification. Just keep in mind. Honestly there's a bunch of dumb small things I could suggest out of personal bias, but I believe you hit the nail on the head that a lot of us would specifically appreciate U-tilt having less ending lag, especially considering how Mario's D-throw was tailor made as a low percent starter, even though we have terrible options at 0.

On the subject of Ganondorf:

*Fixes to D-smash
*faster or longer duration Jab

The first thing I'm suggesting are quality of life fixes to ensure a move works as intended. Ganondorf's D-smash has issues connecting consistently. Sometimes when you are too close, the first hit does not pull people inwards. Sometimes when you are too far when hitting certain characters, they fail to reach the 2nd hit. Most baffling though, is the fact the 2nd hit of D-smash will actually pull characters towards Ganondorf if they are shielding.

Fixing the first hit most likely requires the first hit having slightly more base knockback. To avoid issues of smaller characters accidentally ducking under the 2nd hit, minor hitbox size increases to the 2nd hit especially close to Ganondorf would be appropriate. The fix to the 2nd hit's shield properties are very simple. The angle properties need to be flipped, and the special collision parameters needs to be changed to always sending the opponent in the direction Ganondorf is not facing.

All in all, Ganon's D-smash is a move that would be more satisfying if it wasn't hindered by oversights.

As for the second suggestion, Ganondorf's biggest headache matchups by design are characters that are both able to projectile camp safely and also have very fast air to ground pressure, the most obvious example of which is Sheik. The reason this is such a huge problem for Ganondorf is because he lacks a move that is faster than frame 7 except for U-air. Ganondorf's two fastest ground moves are Jab and Grab, the first of which is 8 frames and is also very punishable on whiff due to its ending lag and extended limb. Grab is 7 frames, and is one of the shortest standing grabs in the game.

To make an analogy, it is not uncommon for grapplers in fighting games to have above average backdashes to create openings against predicted spacing that can then be punished with a quick Jab or Grab, which healthily encourages opponents to not be hyper aggressive against an otherwise low mobility character. Ganondorf unfortunately does not really get this kind of benefit. While his rolls have decent distance for resetting to neutral or punishing very laggy moves, Ganon's spotdodge is only average, and his very short grab and slow Jab make him very bad at punishing after spotdodging most spacing attempts.

Overall, Ganondorf needs a straight buff to either his Jab or Grab to give him a grounded option that more consistently discourages people from rushing him down. There are three solutions I see here.

Speeding up Ganondorf's Jab by at least two frames is the most obvious solution to help Ganondorf reactively anti-air short hop approaches. The other two ways Ganondorf could be assisted in these types of matchups is either by increasing the hitbox duration of Ganondorf's Jab, or by increasing Ganondorf's grab range. I would not recommend increasing Ganondorf's grab range, as there is the risk of making Ganondorf a fundamentally safe and boring character who at high levels is able to win games by shield camping if his grab range is good enough to easily punish something like Sheik's F-air spacing.

So thus, buffing Ganondorf's Jab is the most logical buff Ganondorf wants. Speeding up Ganon's Jab is realistically the superior buff, but also homogenizes Ganondorf slightly more, giving him the additional benefit of an out of spotdodge punish that isn't terrible. Increasing the hitbox duration (to something like 7 frames) is more unique. While this strictly is not as powerful, this has the other quality of life benefit as making Ganondorf's hand less vulnerable overall when he extends it. You can use this Jab better to stop projectiles, clank with moves in midrange, catch end frames of dodges, and preemptively force mobile characters to be careful when running directly at you.

In short, I would highly recommend either speeding up Ganondorf's Jab (by at least 2 frames), or increasing its hitbox duration (to at least 7 frames). This kind of buff largely would be very relevant in Ganondorf's most difficult matchups. The matchups Ganondorf does better in, he typically relies on his Jab far less, making it unlikely to be a serious balance issue.

 

[HeroMystic]

; tagging @ A2ZOMG and @ HeroMystic since I'm quoting them and they might have things to add.

I'll be frank and say I actually dislike participating in threads such as these, especially this early in the metagame where we barely got off our feet. I feel our focus should be on pushing our characters to their very limit before asking the developer for changes. It's a stance I hold regardless of any game. However, with our current knowledge, I feel you hit the majority of what I would say with the exception of less recovery time on fireballs, which would give Mario stronger opportunities to set up approaches.

 

[RODO]

This might be nit picky but make the window to jump cancel things smaller. It feels too large right now as I too often, for instance, up smash when I'm trying to do a short hop u-air.

 

[Luigi player]

I generally definitely disagree with such a topic. You can see what happens with games if it's done by the community (see Project M), but I'll post some input, since there definitely are a few things that should be changed about the game:

- what Big O said about DK

*DK immediately get's his laggy pose from upB if he goes from aerial to grounded (and this doesn't just happen at the end of the move, it just stops, which is really weird).
*DKs giant punch is SO unsafe if your back is to the edge of a stage, because if it's shielded (and I think sometimes even if you hit, if you're close enough to the edge) DK falls off and dies. This was much better in Brawl. DKs giant punch is a useful tool to get back on-stage, but now they've completely taken that away. -> make it so like Big O said, he needs to be able to grab the ledge sooner.
*DKs giant punch charging (only +1 swing after you start you're second swing); this is really weird and buggy. It also feels completely weird to have your fully charged punch and still having (or having to cancel manually with a roll/airdodge) to charge another turn as well.


As for Diddy Kong : He might need some little nerfs, but it should not be overdone. Yes, he is really good and seems broken, but most people don't DI his dthrow. He has problems connecting his uair if you just DI it (hint: it has a very small window of working even at low % if you just DI behind Diddy while he dthrows you).
This makes his dthrow to uair combos pretty much unproblematic. The only problem is the community isn't as knowledgeable on the matchup and that there are many "newbies" who might not know about this. So I'd call Diddy a "noob-basher". He seems extremely broken if you don't know what to do. If you do know what to do he still seems very very good (probably the best), but not broken.

If his uair should be nerfed, then not with the startup frames. Diddy has had this uair as a GTFO/combobreaker move in Brawl and needs it (they've decided to leave it the same startupframewise so they seem to think it's okay, why do you want to take this option away from him?). The range in front of the move could be a little shrinked, though it is already hard to hit with to be honest.
If you want his uair to be changed do it like this:
- a little more endinglag on the uair (now he can't spam or combo after it) (but not too much)
- knockback growth a little smaller (so that it doesn't kill as early); it already can't combo with the more endinglag, or if the endinglag is still small enough that it can combo, give it more base knockback, then lessen the knockback growth even more (obviously since it would cancel the change out then)
- maybe the hitbox generally a very tiny bit smaller (he sticks out his foot really far)
- maybe give his dthrow a little more endinglag (or run his animation a little faster):
this move looks weird right now, and if he has just a little more lag with it he might still be able to combo out of it somewhat, but not in "broken"-levels

And as for a small buff: his jab 1 should be a little easier to cancel into something else besides jab 2. He probably has the worst jab in the game after Samus. Hitting with his jabs is the most unsafe thing ever (even more unsafe than with Samus), especially the tail combo at the end. They never combo. If the opponent just shields then he gets a free (big, because Diddy has a lot of lag afterwards) punish.

Generally though, I think we should look for things to buff instead of nerf, so noone gets the bad end of the stick
(though obviously it shouldn't be overdone).


As for non-character changes:

- non techable meteors if you're on the ground: I could live with this, but it isn't necessary, imo. It's a nice countertactic against dair->followup stuff. And it isn't that easy to do anyway (most of the time it just happens cuz you'd want to shield anyway).

- include a little more DI / vectoring again: this is a mechanic that was in the game since Smash64. So basically in all Smash games 'till now. They don't need to overdo it like it was with vectoring before, but a little more than now. This adds another part of "skill" to the game and it's really sad to see it go.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Thanks for all the input and thanks to Shaya for his assistence! I will tackle individual posts when I'm back from work.

For now I'd just like to mention that no more suggestions on Ganondorf should be made in this thread. It's obvious and undisputed that there are still adjustments that need to be made in regards to his character design. I acknowledge these problems but I don't want every 3rd or 4th post in this thread to cover the issues of this character. Instead, all discussion on what adjustments should be made to Ganondorf will be outsourced to the character boards. I will make a thread at th Ganondorf board later today.

snip

I have no counter-argument to this. @Lavani - unless you have a legitimate objection to FimPhym's post I won't add your suggestion. You OK with this?

 

[Jabejazz]

snip

I also somewhat have to agree with this. As much as I feel gordo throw is the most obvious of his "problems" outside of the character's natural attributes/game engine (slow, heavy, large, fast faller, no more vectoring, weak DI), I can't say it isn't a "lazy" fix that to make them not reflect anymore. It's doubtful such a change would skyrocket him in higher tiers, but the potential impact is there.

It is still an issue however, and I wouldn't call gordo throw an "insanely good" projectile. The fact you can reflect them yourself realistically doesn't accomplish much, if anything. It's a move that I feel will see less and less use in games due to how gimmicky it currently feels.

Hell, a couple of his moves already don't see much use in games, I don't know why this character needed his only ranged move to be another "I might get punished for throwing that".

Can we have a good Down Special already?

 

[FimPhym]

I also somewhat have to agree with this. As much as I feel gordo throw is the most obvious of his "problems" outside of the character's natural attributes/game engine (slow, heavy, large, fast faller, no more vectoring, weak DI), I can't say it isn't a "lazy" fix that to make them not reflect anymore. It's doubtful such a change would skyrocket him in higher tiers, but the potential impact is there.

It is still an issue however, and I wouldn't call gordo throw an "insanely good" projectile. The fact you can reflect them yourself realistically doesn't accomplish much, if anything. It's a move that I feel will see less and less use in games due to how gimmicky it currently feels.

Hell, a couple of his moves already don't see much use in games, I don't know why this character needed his only ranged move to be another "I might get punished for throwing that".

Can we have a good Down Special already?

I agree that it is sad that jet hammer sucks, even the customs suck! Perhaps they had FFA in mind with it. Just to clarify since I also agree that gordo is not insanely good - I mean insanely good before the reflect property. Lots of angles, stays out a long time, high damage, just all around very unfair. Then you add reflect and of course it is no longer unfair. The tuning is a little weak but I like the intention.

Thanks!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser's gimmick is to passively resist weak hitstun. It doesn't magically stop working at 60%; Megaman's lemons don't start stunning him until mid 300%s iirc (EDIT: more specifically, 373%).

Right but how is it that Bowser passively resists Luigi's Fireballs up until 60%. What is the reason for that? Below that percentage I can walk up or run to him without getting completely stopped. But above 60% it stops Bowser mid walk and mid run much like Falco's laser does regardless of percentage. Does Luigi's Fireballs somehow lift him slightly off the ground? Because I believe Tough Guy is only active when Bowser is on the ground.

I just want to understand what works for TG and what doesn't. Because I believe using TG to Bowser's advantage can help him get to where he needs to be.

 

[Meru.]

Make multi-hit moves connect reliably.

Peach: Dash Attack
Zelda: Smashes

I mainly play these characters so I can't think of many moves now but there are plrobably a looooot more other multihit moves that should simply always connect.

 

[guedes the brawler]

they REALLY need to fix Jr's forward smash.

 

[Jabejazz]

. Just to clarify since I also agree that gordo is not insanely good - I mean insanely good before the reflect property. Lots of angles, stays out a long time, high damage, just all around very unfair. Then you add reflect and of course it is no longer unfair. The tuning is a little weak but I like the intention.

Fair enough.

Gordo Throw has been designed with Dedede's general idea in mind; a high risk/high reward move, similar to how his smashes and other specials work. And while I also like(d?) the concept, the problem lies in the fact there's very little reward in using it in neutral, but you're risking a lot. Alternatively, you risk very little when using as edgeguard, but get mixed rewards (anything from a complete miss to a stage spike that kills).

Either increase the reward, (but at this point, a projectile that deals 14% is already insanely good), or reduce the risk, which is something very doable without making the move abusive.

Ideally, make it so having to deal with the move is an actual commitment like other projectiles.

What I thought they'd change when I knew 1.0.4. was coming was they would increase the damage threshold to reflect them, maybe increase it enough so most jab 1s wouldn't reflect it (3%->4/5%). Instead, they made the complete opposite, so EVERY jab 1 could reflect them (3% -> 2%).

Idea behind increasing the threshold means you have to commit to something laggier than mindless projectile spam/quick jab.

At this point I learned to deal with it. I like the idea of this thread, but I'm being realistic. Gordo Throw fits the character's design perfectly, and I doubt much will change about it.

 

[MegaMissingno]

Quality of life changes:

• Customization on/off split into all on, all off, moves only, equipment only. Not sure why anyone would want that last one, but might as well have it for the sake of completeness.
• amiibos obey customization settings, including the hidden stat boosts the game currently lies to you about. Especially since you can't delete equipment effects, once you've added them there's no way to play vanilla again with it. If we want to do any amiibo-related side events, these will be a problem.
• Quick set function for custom moves. Add an option at the bottom of the list of saved loadouts where you can just type in the numbers corresponding to the moves you want.
• Smash remembers the rules you played with last instead of always defaulting to 2 minute time matches.
• When going from one mode to another, names are remembered for each controller. Only for the duration of the play session though, wouldn't want to turn the system on and accidentally forget to take off the name the last person playing was using.
• Display ping online.

Mechanic changes:

• KOs off the top always result in star or screen KOs as long as it isn't the last stock or there's more than 15-30 seconds on the timer. Only in those cases should they ever be skipped with explosive KOs, no reason why that should happen early on in a match. It's a huge headache for Puff, making Rest punishable just via RNG.

Character changes:

• I strongly feel that Lucario's comeback mechanic is just toxic design, especially on up-B where it only makes him harder to kill at high percents. I know it's never going to get removed, but at the very least it could be toned down. Reduce how effective it is at high percents but give him a little base buff at low percents to even it out. And take it away from up-B, please.
• Jigglypuff: Please fix Rollout. Please. What's especially crazy is that when Kirby copies it, he's free to move after it connects. So why does Puff get stuck in that tumble state?

 

[elmike]

I try to stay 100% consistent with that policy so you will generally see me post that character X doesn't deserve buffs A LOT.

Also, nothing will be accepted without a proper explanation but you're free to voice your opinion if you disagree with me. I'm not incapable of changing my mind in the face of a convincing argument. I call this project Community Patch Project for a reason.

@Lavani gave you a valid reason about the luigi recovery. Mashing the button 14 times in a second its almost impossible for most people. How can you decide --by yourself-- that this is not a valid reason?

Either its a bug (recovery shouldnt be used in that way), or it should be changed to require less presses.

Metaknight
Bugfix: I havent check in the wiiU, but in the 3ds, after 1.04, the hitbox of metaknight ftilt wasnt matching the animation. (The sword literally goes across the enemy, but it doesnt do damage nor knockback)

P.S: Was the "marionamin123" diddy example a real example? Because i agree with the change.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Actually fixing Meta Knight's Hitboxes would be a welcome change. I think the only thing they did in 1.0.4 was add knockback to some attacks and basically put in edited graphics to reflect the actual hitboxes of some of his attacks. Which doesn't really solve the original problem.

 

[Raijinken]

On the topic of Ganondorf, I feel that his greatest weaknesses are his recovery and his defensive options to rushdown characters/projectiles. I believe the "Little Mac" approach of adding more armor to more attacks would be one approach, but an unnecessary one.

The PMBR addressed his recovery and projectile struggles with the Dead Man's Volley, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect Nintendo adjust a moveset any time soon.

If anything, perhaps making some of Ganon's attacks knockback less at base and scale slightly more, to allow for a slightly better (or existent, I don't claim to play against players who are good at escaping combos) combo game early without impacting his kill potential, which is already quite good. Moves like uair are already fairly good, but fair has a terrible case of knocking back too much to follow but not enough to kill (even at higher percents, it doesn't seem to reward as well as ftilt or bair).

I would also suggest making Dsmash either faster or otherwise more reliable/scalable, as it doesn't seem to reward nearly as well as a move that slow should.

 

[Vermanubis]

Honestly, a character like Ganon's delicate to balance, because if you give him too much, he'll become a monster.

My general wishlist for Ganon, is, more than anything, an improved grab range. When I think back to all of my most difficult matches, inadequate move speed has never been a problem, rather, the fact that attacking Ganon's shield is perfectly safe for most characters since he's apparently a Kung Fu man and likes keep his elbows close to his body when grabbing.

Beyond that, I'd say reduce the ending lag on choke by at least a 2 frames to make it possible to follow up on certain characters. The reason being because if you play against a very talented, defensive, shield-holding opponent upon whom you can't follow-up after choke, such as Zelda, at high percents, you're relegated to throws and some other obscure, heady method of killing. That being said, if such a character techs, they should still be safe, but I think Ganon's DTilt follow-ups should be universal. If someone techs, they deserve to escape, but if they fail to, then the toll is to be paid, as it were. This way, it's not an arbitrary reward to Ganon, but the removal of an arbitrary reward for failure on their part.

I'm open to any and all buffs, since I won't complain about having a more and more viable character. But in the spirit of fairness, giving Ganon his DAir back would be, as much as I hate it, a bit much (though if Nintendo sees it fit, see you all in the shadow realm). A reflector'd be neat, too, but that's not something I feel Ganon needs to be viable. What hurts him more than anything is the fact that certain VERY GOOD characters are completely immune to one of his most vital tools. This and his grab range are the only things about Ganon I find legitimately stupid and unbalanced.

 

[MagiusNecros]

On the topic of Ganondorf, I feel that his greatest weaknesses are his recovery and his defensive options to rushdown characters/projectiles. I believe the "Little Mac" approach of adding more armor to more attacks would be one approach, but an unnecessary one.

The PMBR addressed his recovery and projectile struggles with the Dead Man's Volley, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect Nintendo adjust a moveset any time soon.

Easy way to make Ganondorf better against projectiles. Put a reflect property on his jab. That's all you need to do and it comes straight from source game material too. Probably will never happen though.

 

[Raijinken]

Easy way to make Ganondorf better against projectiles. Put a reflect property on his jab. That's all you need to do and it comes straight from source game material too. Probably will never happen though.

Even if it doesn't reflect, having it beat out projectiles would go a long way. But like Vermanubis said, he's hard to balance without making him a monster. He has to have some shortcomings, but he needs at least a few tricks to give him a viable edge against the dominant rushdown/projectile harassment strategies.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Even if it doesn't reflect, having it beat out projectiles would go a long way. But like Vermanubis said, he's hard to balance without making him a monster. He has to have some shortcomings, but he needs at least a few tricks to give him a viable edge against the dominant rushdown/projectile harassment strategies.

Well compared to others he is still slow, main source of damage is mindgames and punishing for mistakes and the lack of any projectiles of his own. He can do some pretty amazing stuff but a speedy character that can body you to death like Diddy Kong alongside having Projectiles will pose the same problem it poses to characters like DeDeDe and Bowser. You are fighting a battle to get to thing and of course to actually land a hit on the thing.

I will say his Dash Grab at least needs bigger range. It's Bowser Klaw bad IMO.

 

[_Malal]

Balance: Adjust ridiculous fixed KB on first hit of Mii Brawler Piston Punch (killing puff at 0 by design is probably unintended)

Quality of life Lucario changes (possibly unnecessary):

UpB bounces on the side of stage sweetspot like in 3DS version

You can clearly see the differences on 3DS vs WiiU battlefield BUT I'm uncertain if this is just a nerf they forgot to code in 3DS (for instance, Lucario still can cancel landing lag from aerials in 3DS)

I'm only making a guess, but it being an engine difference would not surprise me.

It being an intentional Nerf alongside the hard landing Nerf is fine too, but I thought they wanted 3ds <-> WiiU as close as possible?


Fair's Total Animation lowered to match the IASA:

In terms of how fast Lucario can fair -> any other action this would do nothing, but the following change would allow him to Full Hop Fair through platforms and fall through them without landing by holding down .

Would promote more aggressive platform pressure instead of justing Nairing below them all day.

I'm probably not qualified for Marth, but it would be neat if his DB forward linked correctly all the time at high %

SH Fair fast fall not being obnoxiously precise to do compared to other characters would be nice too.

 

[GameAngel64]

I notice no one has really mentioned Zelda yet, or at least I didn't see... perhaps there is just this resignation that she is meant to be a hopeless cause? Or there is just not enough interest in her? In any case, I don't think anyone could disagree that she needs some serious tweaks in order to become a competitively viable character. Instead of writing a treatise on every change she could use - and yes there are plenty of fundamental changes that would help her game - at the moment I will only mention one simple change that I would like to see: her side+B (Din's Fire) should not send her into helpless mode when used in the air.

For some reason the developers must feel this is a necessary disadvantage, since Din's has sent Zelda into helpless mode in all her past iterations, but for the life of me I do not see why. It hardly should count as a recovery move, and in fact some characters with an actual side+B recovery have been buffed so they now do not go into helpless anymore (e.g. Fox)... but for some reason Din's Fire still has this deficiency. Furthermore, there are many characters that can shoot projectiles while they return to the stage without going into helpless, but not Zelda. And as far as projectiles go, many attacks cancel Din's Fire out, so it is hardly an indomitable return approach. I only see this "feature" of Din's Fire as being there so Zelda has one more way to kill herself, which is hardly needed.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Anything that starts with "I need this" is doing it wrong and needs to stop and think about it.
Ganondorf was picked to have a bad grab for a reason. Zelda was picked to have a bad grab for a reason.
Things like this shouldn't be brought up, it's purely asking for a buff on something that hasn't been different for 3 games already and seems to be, by Sakurai's standards an inherent weakness.

And from a design standpoint, Ganondorf has less options out of getting a grab in this game than he does in any other game. If he decides to keep the grab as pathetic as it is now, then there should be more options out of it. I am a game designer as well Shaya, I understand keeping the creator's intent as well. His intent however is not in line with the properties he gave it. Either the grab needs changing (MANY things were changed in this game that were never changed before; DK has a down B in the air for the first time since the series' inception so I think claiming "this is how it always was" is NOT a valid argument for Smash 4) or the throws need buffing. I'd argue that buffing the grab would add far more options than buffing the throws because getting the throws is still very difficult. And I'm all for adding options.

 

[TTTTTsd]

To add some perspective to Ganon's grab, his range is still Melee tier but I think it should be a bit longer in this game ONLY BECAUSE I feel like they reused the range data but didn't quite think of why it had such bad range in melee.

Ganon's D-Throw in Melee was incredible. It CG'd, it basically guaranteed a followup regardless of DI IIRC, it was just a ****ing godlike D-Throw. How do you offset that? Make it hard to land.

Looking at Ganondorf's grab game in Smash 4, while I utilize it a lot thanks to the improvement of shields and grabbing out of shield, D-Throw is far from what it was in Melee (and this is perfectly okay! I think it's silly to have a D-Throw you can't even DI out of or avoid some form of punishment from), but the grab range remains absolutely pitiful. Just extend it by a little bit, his throw kit is substantially worse than Melee so I see no reason to keep Melee's D-Throw on him, especially on Ganon whose metagame is a lot about smart shielding and punishes. I doubt it would break him, yeah.

I'm with SamuraiPanda entirely. Having played Ganon a lot I feel like his throw range is a lazy port from Melee and should be updated to be a bit better to compensate for an overall nerfed throw game.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No more discussion about Ganon in this thread please. An contributions to Ganondorf are to be posted in that thread from now on: http://smashboards.com/threads/community-patch-project-ganondorf.380759/

 

[Raijinken]

I notice no one has really mentioned Zelda yet, or at least I didn't see... perhaps there is just this resignation that she is meant to be a hopeless cause? Or there is just not enough interest in her? In any case, I don't think anyone could disagree that she needs some serious tweaks in order to become a competitively viable character. Instead of writing a treatise on every change she could use - and yes there are plenty of fundamental changes that would help her game - at the moment I will only mention one simple change that I would like to see: her side+B (Din's Fire) should not send her into helpless mode when used in the air.

For some reason the developers must feel this is a necessary disadvantage, since Din's has sent Zelda into helpless mode in all her past iterations, but for the life of me I do not see why. It hardly should count as a recovery move, and in fact some characters with an actual side+B recovery have been buffed so they now do not go into helpless anymore (e.g. Fox)... but for some reason Din's Fire still has this deficiency. Furthermore, there are many characters that can shoot projectiles while they return to the stage without going into helpless, but not Zelda. And as far as projectiles go, many attacks cancel Din's Fire out, so it is hardly an indomitable return approach. I only see this "feature" of Din's Fire as being there so Zelda has one more way to kill herself, which is hardly needed.

Din's Fire is a very good point to bring up. Ness has a similar problem with PK Flash for similarly unexplained reasons. I think that would be a very reasonable buff to Zelda.

Also yes, cstick should be fixed to be like brawl. Having your momentum stop when you do an aerial really sucks.

In this case, I support this change even though it doesn't affect me. Flicking the c-stick (which is precisely as much as was actually needed in past games) will still give the exact same result, it's only if you hold it in a direction that it affects your horizontal move.