Clone Character Hate

[GmanSir]

I'm just ticked that clones with a lot of differentiation, like Lucas and Wolf, were taken out in favor of new, only slightly different clones, like Lucina and The Edgy Recolor. (Dr. Mario gets a bit of leeway, because he uses Melee Mario gameplay, which falls closer to a Lucas/Ness type split.)

The thing is, they weren't cut in favor of the 3 clones, they weren't going to be in the game regardless. The planned roster is the same as the one released, minus Ice Climbers and maybe Mewtwo. Lucas and Wolf couldn't have been replaced, if they were never planned. And when clone time came around, they edit the existing parent, not go back for a character.

 

[MagnesD3]

So Lucina is worse than ____ for... what reason?

Shes worse than those I listed. Due to some of those characters importance and for the fact some of those franchises needed a newcomer and for the fact (in roys case) the fanbase is larger).

 

[K-45]

Some people didn't want an option for Mario to not have a supersoaker, so they're annoyed.

I'll take clones over a smaller roster any day. I'm only disappointed when former clones are still identical (Hi Ganondorf, how's it goin?).

I don't think Ganondorf is ever going to have a none caption falcon moveset. Its almost his signature move set at this point. Don't forget we can have Demise in smash 6 with a Ganondorf color swap. That might be the closet think to a ture Ganondorf moveset we will have I predict.

 

[UltimateXsniper]

I have no problems with clones. I mean, if people don't like them well you don't really have to play them. They're just there to people who would prefer to have more of something that the original doesn't. It's something about your liking of a play style. Of course you can't really ignore clones if you have to fight against them but um...you can use your hatred to destroy them? Lol
Could clones take away a spot of a character we wanted? It's possible but unlikely due to the fact that the clones take much less time to make which is good for the game since there is probably not enough time to make a new character that isn't a clone by the time they even announced the clones. (If that makes sense to you...sorry if what I'm trying to say is confusing)
Anyway, I don't mind clones. I'm already happy with the amount of characters we got for the game already. Then again, I never really rooted for characters that I would like to see in the game like other people had for Mewtwo for example.

 

[Lord Goomy]

Some people didn't want an option for Mario to not have a supersoaker, so they're annoyed.

I'll take clones over a smaller roster any day. I'm only disappointed when former clones are still identical (Hi Ganondorf, how's it goin?).


Xenoblade is about as related to Xenogears and Xenosaga as Final Fantasy 13 is to Final Fantasy 2. Or as Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn is to Fire Emblem Shadow Dragon.

It's purely thematic until they establish an official canon and justify it somehow.

(inb4 someone brings up Zelda, which actually bothered to identify how its timeline worked)

Also, Shulk's popularity (especially in Japan, and amongst the few westerners who DID play Xenoblade) is pretty high.

Just saying, Fire Emblem games do exist in the same universe. They take place on the same two continents and characters such as Tiki appear in several games set a thousand years apart.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't think Ganondorf is ever going to have a none caption falcon moveset. Its almost his signature move set at this point. Don't forget we can have Demise in smash 6 with a Ganondorf color swap. That might be the closet think to a ture Ganondorf moveset we will have I predict.

I can say without a doubt Ganondorf will never be uncloned as long as Sakurai is director.

 

[Spinosaurus]

A Smash character should get in if they're important and popular in their franchise

but who gives a **** about Fire Emblem and its fanbase, let's add the character that was in melee before even though he was awful.

straw man aside MagnesD3 is a funny guy

 

[Lord Goomy]

Id call Ness a smash star, not an all star. He would be included as a retro if I magically had control over the smash roster but I doubt he would have been there from the very beginning.

You're focusing on how important characters are outside of Japan. In Japan Mother 2 is considered transcendently good with mature themes and an amazing story. However, due to Nintendo of America being crazy, the game got edited down and had all of the mature insightful themes removed. America is not the only country that matters, Japan is probably the largest factor in deciding which characters are important and which aren't.

 

[MagnesD3]

A Smash character should get in if they're important and popular in their franchise

but who gives a **** about Fire Emblem and its fanbase, let's add the character that was in melee before even though he was awful.

straw man aside MagnesD3 is a funny guy

Lucina isnt important to Fe. I think Marth, Ike and Lyn are the only ones who could get in on importance as of right now (unless im missing somebody huge, sry havent played all the FE's tbh)

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lucina isnt important to Fe. I think Marth, Ike and Lyn are the only ones who could get in on importance as of right now (unless im missing somebody huge, sry havent played all the FE's tbh)

So you admit that you don't know what you're talking about?

**** me, I absolutely loathe Awakening. I wrote an essay about why I think it's a bad game, but even I'm not delusional enough to deny its importance to the franchise.

 

[MagnesD3]

You're focusing on how important characters are outside of Japan. In Japan Mother 2 is considered transcendently good with mature themes and an amazing story. However, due to Nintendo of America being crazy, the game got edited down and had all of the mature insightful themes removed. America is not the only country that matters, Japan is probably the largest factor in deciding which characters are important and which aren't.

It shouldnt be though, holding one country higher than the other just cuz is bias. Anyways Ness is still just one character who has been in one game in a franchise that is dead (cept for mother 3 oddly). I would have included him as a retro but not as anything else unless it was earned.

 

[PikaSamus]

Lucina isnt important to Fe. I think Marth, Ike and Lyn are the only ones who could get in on importance as of right now (unless im missing somebody huge, sry havent played all the FE's tbh)

Dude, Lucina is really important to Awakening. Without her, Grima wouldn't have been able to be beaten, as Robin and co. wouldn't know about some stuff or whatever.

 

[J04KlM]

Sure.

But he was poorly designed because of his gimped gimmick and being a bad character all around.

I know how much he struggled in Melee, but that does not make him a "bad character". Other fan favorite character Mewtwo also struggled a lot in Melee and he was deemed one of the worst characters in the game, this does not make him a bad character "all round" at all. Look at Project M, it strongly displays what Roy and Mewtwo could've been in Melee. And what they could be if they were ever to return in a new official Smash game, they have potential. Does Ganondorf's struggling in Brawl make him a bad character? Or Captain Falcon? Every character has potential in their own individual rights, it's just a matter of how they're executed.

 

[MagnesD3]

So you admit that you don't know what you're talking about?

**** me, I absolutely loathe Awakening. I wrote an essay about why I think it's a bad game, but even I'm not delusional enough to deny its importance to the franchise.

How is awakening important? Its just a very good FE game.

Dude, Lucina is really important to Awakening. Without her, Grima wouldn't have been able to be beaten, as Robin and co. wouldn't know about some stuff or whatever.

to that one game not the whole franchise. Im positive she is important to that one game, that I have no doubts in.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

My main complaints are Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. We didn't really need a 7th Mario rep, and Dark Pit could've just been a palette swap for Pit. Mewtwo and Wolf probably deserved the representation more, especially Wolf, as the Star Wolf Theme is practically empty without him.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Arguing about importance and popularity about a franchise you never even played is just laughable.

I also like how the only characters you think are important are the ones that got into Smash. Who the hell are Leif and Sigurd? Hector? Naw.

How is awakening important? Its just a very good game.

It actually saved the franchise and is the best selling in the series.

Do your damn research holy ****

I know how much he struggled in Melee, but that does not make him a "bad character". Other fan favorite character Mewtwo also struggled a lot in Melee and he was deemed one of the worst characters in the game, this does not make him a bad character "all round" at all. Look at Project M, it strongly displays what Roy and Mewtwo could've been in Melee. And what they could be if they were ever to return in a new official Smash game, they have potential. Does Ganondorf's struggling in Brawl make him a bad character? Or Captain Falcon? Every character has potential in their own individual rights, it's just a matter of how they're executed.

All the character you listed are poorly designed.

 

[PikaSamus]

How is awakening important? Its just a very good game.


to that one game not the whole franchise.

The game presumably sets the stage for future installments, with its new landmarks and whatnot. Most games have had a saga (Marth and Altea, Ike and whatever, Roy and his dad and whatever, etc.), so presumably Awakening will get a sequel. IIRC, the FE team said that Lucina would appear in later games.

 

[wingedarcher7]

I honestly feel like Dark Pit gets more hate than he deserves. Trying to avoid being bias as a Kid Icarus fan, his addition in the game as a clone isn't any worse than Dr. Mario or Lucina. The argument I'm seeing more people put up is that Dark Pit is just pit, but with a different color. In that case, Dr. Mario is just Mario with a coat on..but he doesn't seem to be getting the hate that Dark Pit has, and the Mario series already has more reps than the Kid Icarus series does (Understandable, with it being Nintendo's mascot franchise, but nevertheless) People go on about how Lucina is also welcome because some of them wanted her and because she's her own character in Awakening, but Dark Pit is his own character in Uprising as well. Yes, story wise, he's also a clone of Pit, but he has his own personality that makes him unique, just like Lucina has her own personality that makes her different from Marth.

Maybe I'm just ranting here, but it just irks me that Dark Pit has been put at the bottom and that Dr. Mario, who is ACTUALLY the character Mario himself, is getting by with less hatred and it feels as though it's just because he was in a Smash Bros. game in the past, making it more acceptable. I like the fact that Dark Pit is in the game because he's an awesome character, but I would have been just as fine with him not being there, same goes for Lucina. But even with that in mind, I feel as though many more people would be upset if Lucina hadn't made it in, even if they knew she would be a clone. Rant over, sorry about this.

 

[GmanSir]

How is awakening important? Its just a very good game.

It literally saved the entire franchise. Not only that, but it has been one of the critically acclaimed FE games, and most successful. Due to the success, it will most likely be the spreadsheet for future installments.

 

[Lord Goomy]

It shouldnt be though, holding one country higher than the other just cuz is bias. Anyways Ness is still just one character who has been in one game in a franchise that is dead (cept for mother 3 oddly). I would have included him as a retro but not as anything else unless it was earned.

My point isn't that one country is more important than another, my point is that certain characters are important in different parts of the world. Just because they are not popular in your part of the world does not devalue them as a character. If characters were just based on American popularity then we would have never have gotten Ness, Lucas, Shulk, Roy or Marth.

 

[MagnesD3]

Arguing about importance and popularity about a franchise you never even played is just laughable.

I also like how the only characters you think are important are the ones that got into Smash. Who the hell are Leif and Sigurd? Hector? Naw.

It actually saved the franchise and is the best selling in the series.

Do your damn research holy ****

All the character you listed are poorly designed.

I said I havent played ALL of them, hell alot are japanese exclusive. Also I do my research lol. Are Leif, Hector and Sigurd important across multiple games? Or just 1.

My point isn't that one country is more important than another, my point is that certain characters are important in different parts of the world. Just because they are not popular in your part of the world does not devalue them as a character. If characters were just based on American popularity then we would have never have gotten Ness, Lucas, Shulk, Roy or Marth.

Thats true but if you process the world as a whole and all of nintendos franchises Ness is an easy retro and Marth is an easy pick to represent FE.

It literally saved the entire franchise. Not only that, but it has been one of the critically acclaimed FE games, and most successful. Due to the success, it will most likely be the spreadsheet for future installments.

Is there proof it "saved" the franchise. Were they threatening to never make another one or something?

 

[Spinosaurus]

I said I havent played ALL of them, hell alot are japanese exclusive. Also I do my research lol. Are Leif, Hector and Sigurd important across multiple games? Or just 1.

I mostly listed these three specifically because they're from critically acclaimed games (FE6 aside for Hector, although most know him because of FE7).

Though yes, Sigurd aside, Hector and Leif were in multiple games.

 

[J04KlM]

All the character you listed are poorly designed.

And what is your point? Just because they previously were poorly designed does not mean they will stick to that status in the next installment.

 

[MagnesD3]

I mostly listed these three specifically because they're from critically acclaimed games (FE6 aside for Hector, although most know him because of FE7).

Though yes, Sigurd aside, Hector and Leif were in multiple games.

Dlc doesnt count, were they the protagonist in those multiple games (also are these main games or spinoffs and what are these said games) and were they important to the story (not some side character stuff where a familiar face appears, Im talking like Ike who has 2 games as the protagonist under his belt.)

 

[Raijinken]

Just saying, Fire Emblem games do exist in the same universe. They take place on the same two continents and characters such as Tiki appear in several games set a thousand years apart.

That's from FE1/2/3/11/12 to 13, which are all part of the Akaneian saga. And it is established that 4/5 take place a long time before the Akaneian saga. The rest, vague as it is, are apparently either just legends being told to people, or alternate dimensions, or alternate timelines, or something like that. Until Awakening tried dragging them all together for the series' last pre-cancellation hurrah, there was zero reason to believe they were any more than thematically similar games, like Final Fantasy.

But I digress. If Lucina had been anything BUT a Marth clone, I'd probably have refused to use her due to the blatant ignorance of canon. At least PSI moves could theoretically be taught to Ness.

So you admit that you don't know what you're talking about?

**** me, I absolutely loathe Awakening. I wrote an essay about why I think it's a bad game, but even I'm not delusional enough to deny its importance to the franchise.

Saving my favorite franchise is enough for me to overlook the fact that its "unique" traits were entirely derived from past games in the series.

Oh gosh I'm stuck reading people being ignorant of Fire Emblem lore. I'm gonna have to duck out of here before I waste all my time correcting myself, but suffice it to say that only Marth's universe (Akaneia and Valm) has appeared, canonically, in more than two games. Sigurd had half of one game, Leaf had a game and a half, Eliwood had one game plus plot presence, Hector had one game plus plot presence, Lyn had one game, Celice had half a game, Ike had two games, Roy had one game plus a fleeting mention, Robin/Mark/Avatar may or may not have two depending on if you believe DLC-Lyn's statements implying/stating they're the same person, Eirika/Ephraim had one game, and Chrom and Lucina have one game. Marth has four directly starring him (counting the two remakes) and two in-universe (Gaiden and Awakening). The only other particularly important characters are Ike (popular in all regions amongst FE fans) and Eliwood/Hector/Lyn (mostly Hector and Lyn despite Eliwood being more plot-centric) for bringing the series out of Japan to begin with.

Everyone else amounts to a fan favorite at best. Me, I'd main Leaf in a heartbeat, but it's not going to happen unless they remake the Judgral saga.

 

[K-45]

My main complaints are Dr. Mario and Dark Pit. We didn't really need a 7th Mario rep, and Dark Pit could've just been a palette swap for Pit. Mewtwo and Wolf probably deserved the representation more, especially Wolf, as the Star Wolf Theme is practically empty without him.

Ikr wolf is almost like ridley. Wolf is the Bowser to Mario, the Ganondorf to Link. U can't reall have the hero without his rival/main antagonist.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Dlc doesnt count, were they the protagonist in those multiple games (also are this main games or spinoffs and what are these said games) and were they important to the story (not some side character stuff where a familiar face appears, Im talking like Ike who has 2 games as the protagonist under his belt.)

Then why did you list Lyn if you're being awfully specific about this?

And what is your point? Just because they previously were poorly designed does not mean they will stick to that status in the next installment.

Roy isn't really as popular in Smash BECAUSE of his poor design in Melee.

What you're arguing about is insignificant to me.

 

[Troll Man]

We'd hate the idea of Dark Pit as a clone
We'd hate the idea of Dark Pit with his own moveset

Dark Pit is just a bad idea, Sakurai.

 

[MagnesD3]

Then why did you list Lyn if you're being awfully specific about this?

Lyn is a history piece she is the first protagonist of FE to hit the western shores. This is why she is Iconic to the U.S. (and western nations in general) and to Fire Emblem to at least westerners as this was our first taste of a great franchise.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lyn is a history piece she is the first protagonist of FE to hit the western shores. This is why she is Iconic to the U.S. and to Fire Emblem to at least westerners as this was our first taste of a great franchise.

Eliwood (the actual main character)? Hector?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ikr wolf is almost like ridley. Wolf is the Bowser to Mario, the Ganondorf to Link. U can't reall have the hero without his rival/main antagonist.

The thing is though, Wolf feels like he should be the one who defeats Fox. The only reason why he saved Fox in Star Fox Assault is so that he could finish him off at a later time.

 

[Lord Goomy]

I said I havent played ALL of them, hell alot are japanese exclusive. Also I do my research lol. Are Leif, Hector and Sigurd important across multiple games? Or just 1.

Looking at the characters you listed you're bias is showing. Lyn has only appeared in one game. Sigurd appeared in The Genealogy of the Holy War, which has been recognized by Nintendo as the most successful FE ever, prior to Awakening and is far more important than Lyn in the history of FE. At least you "do you're research."

 

[MagnesD3]

Eliwood (the actual main character)? Hector?

Lyn was first everyone loves her, Eliwood is forgettable and Hector is less popular than Lyn.

(Alot of people who wanted hector just wanted the axe moveset)

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lyn was first everyone loves her, Eliwood is forgettable and Hector is less popular than Lyn.

I love how much you're moving goalposts

OK tell me how Eliwood is forgettable and how Hector is less popular.

 

[MagnesD3]

Looking at the characters you listed you're bias is showing. Lyn has only appeared in one game. Sigurd appeared in The Genealogy of the Holy War, which has been recognized by Nintendo as the most successful FE ever, prior to Awakening and is far more important than Lyn in the history of FE. At least you "do you're research."

Sales doesnt equal importance to the series thats like saying because donkey kong tropical freeze sold the best out of all the donkey kongs we should add that Walrus guy as a character. Also Ive always seen Lyn as a historical piece since she was the first protagonist that opened up the western world to Fire Emblem, its why she was so popular in the pre brawl era.

I love how much you're moving goalposts

OK tell me how Eliwood is forgettable and how Hector is less popular.

Go back in time to pre brawl era, Eliwood wasnt mentioned at all, Hector was popular just not as much as Lyn. Do you think its random that she got in as an assist trophy lol or the fact she is going to be in Project M there are good reasons. If you dont know them then you should "do your research" and find them out.

 

[SmasherP83]

Lucina isnt important to Fe. I think Marth, Ike and Lyn are the only ones who could get in on importance as of right now (unless im missing somebody huge, sry havent played all the FE's tbh)

Lucina isn't important to FE................I don't know if I should facepalm or tell you to play the game again....

EDIT: That's literally saying Chrom isn't important to FE.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Saving a franchise isn't important.

Being in Smash is.

 

[SmasherP83]

Saving a franchise isn't important.

Being in Smash is.

"Saving a franchise isn't important"

Sounds about right for Captain Falcon and Ness.....

 

[MagnesD3]

Nobody has yet to provide proof that Awakening "saved" Fire Emblem. Did nintendo threaten to never make a new one or something?

 

[Spinosaurus]

"Saving a franchise isn't important"

Sounds about right for Captain Falcon and Ness.....

if MagnesD3 was in charge of the roster from the beginning I bet you we would have never gotten Captain Falcon and Ness.

Let's all be grateful that he isn't.