Character Discussion Thread

[Weeman]

"A big Kremling in Smash Run as a boss encounter"

Oh yeah those are totally not large Kremlings

 

[ultimatekoopa]

Firstly, my response to False Sense!

Spoiler

Ooohgooooooood here we go.



Ambiguous, yes. Shadow shown during an explanation of boss mechanics as the clear subject. Referred to as a 'boss character'. Constant flight. At this point, I swear he could come out and say, "Ridley is a Boss Hazard on Pyrosphere" and you guys would go "WELL SO IS BOWSER AND GANONDORF THEY'RE BOSSES AND HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH IF THEY HIT YOU CHECKMATE SAKURAI NOW GIVE US OUR BIG DUMB DRAGON!"



"A big Kremling in Smash Run as a boss encounter"



Very possibly as a Boss Encounter or Boss Hazard! This doesn't really guarantee playability, you know!



Little Mac.



Refuting =/= ignoring!

Okay, praying that worked. Still a newbie to collapsing stuff. Boy I wish there was a preview new post button. Onto round dos.

FAKE EDIT: HURR I'M DUMB I found it. More options, woo!



Not nearly as well as 47 + R. Sorry brah. Unless the Wii U portraits change up quite a bit, so much so that there's no real margin left. Or the actual player space shrinks significantly to accommodate a different layout(OH GOD HERE WE GO).



According to...? What, exactly? I can name my 47 + Random. You guys can't even decide if it's K. Rool or Dixie.



El oh el. Yes. The roster being finalized several years ago means it's subject to change at any moment. Yup. Neato-keeno. I mean, Gematsu's been right about literally everything else so far, but I mean gosh y'know. And I explained Rosalina's omission several times. I'd be willing to do it an eighth if you ask nicely though! I feel like I'm defending this harder than Sal.



Don't be jelly.


Page-snyping, you donkey. My post at the top of a page? I snype it. P-tew!

You know, I like how you talk like if your opinion was a fact and how you are trying to "tell us the truth of the roster" when the last time you did it, you were wrong before
1. Why is Ridley getting special treatment then? Why is he so small? Why is Ridley the only character that isn't deconfirmed in a moment like you know, 99% of the rest of the characters?
2. Large Kremling=/= Kremling with a crown, I mean, there are a lot of candidates
3. All playable characters so far aren't downgraded, this is a pattern, also if you consider what sakurai said about he chooses pkmn then there is no doubt that mewtwo is likely, but you seem to hate mewtwo for some reason
4. Little Mac last game was in 2009, pretty sure that doesn't make you retro

 

[False Sense]

Firstly, my response to False Sense!
Ooohgooooooood here we go.

Ambiguous, yes. Shadow shown during an explanation of boss mechanics as the clear subject. Referred to as a 'boss character'. Constant flight. At this point, I swear he could come out and say, "Ridley is a Boss Hazard on Pyrosphere" and you guys would go "WELL SO IS BOWSER AND GANONDORF THEY'RE BOSSES AND HAZARDOUS TO YOUR HEALTH IF THEY HIT YOU CHECKMATE SAKURAI NOW GIVE US OUR BIG DUMB DRAGON!"



"A big Kremling in Smash Run as a boss encounter"



Very possibly as a Boss Encounter or Boss Hazard! This doesn't really guarantee playability, you know!



Little Mac.



Refuting =/= ignoring!

-Shadow of highly requested character shown during a section on bosses. No specification as to what it is we saw was given then, and it hasn't been mentioned since. This behavior is unusual for Sakurai if Ridley is truly a boss, as his methods of de-confirmation have always been quick and to the point. He tends to avoid creating unnecessary confusion in regards to what role characters have in Smash. This teasing of Ridley, with no direct confirmation of his role in the game, is contradictory to how Sakurai has always handled these matters. It does, however, match up with the kind of teasing characters like Palutena received prior to being revealed. That's also not going into a number of other things, such as the shadow itself and the unusual actions of this "boss."

-The person who said that was able to identify that it was a Kremling, but couldn't specify that it was K. Rool, the most iconic of them all. Also, Smash Run bosses so far have been generic mini-bosses from their respective series. A main antagonist like K. Rool does not fit the criteria. In other words, the possibility that this "big kremling" (which is just a rumor, anyway) is K. Rool is an unlikely one.

-True, Sakurai didn't specify what role Mega Mewtwo Y would have in the game. But the fact is that he could have been, and was most likely, referring to having Mega Mewtwo Y be playable to some extent, likely as a Final Smash. Frankly, this was a hint towards Mewtwo. You interpret it as referring to making Mega Mewtwo Y a boss, which, while a possibility, is not fact. Don't treat it like one.

-Punch-Out Wii, and all the references to it that are in Smash.

 

[Con0rrrr]

I'm not betting on K Rool being playable, but I'm still betting on 50-52

 

[Kenith]

It's becoming increasingly clear that they revealed Fi and Ghirahim for Hyrule Warriors so they had a good time frame to announce Ghirahim for Smash on Monday.

In all seriousness, it's Shulk. Totally betting on Shulk. That's the worst they'll reveal in my mind, and it's not even bad.

 

[Rockaphin]

It's becoming increasingly clear that they revealed Fi and Ghirahim for Hyrule Warriors so they had a good time frame to announce Ghirahim for Smash on Monday.

In all seriousness, it's Shulk. Totally betting on Shulk. That's the worst they'll reveal in my mind, and it's not even bad.

Yeah, I'm not a huge Shulk fan, like not at all, but he's really not a bad choice.

I'm hoping the revealed character isn't on the leak.

 

[kikaru]

Maybe it's easy to say now considering that many of my top newcomers actually made it into Smash (, , , , and most likely Shulk), but I kind of wished the Gematsu leak never surfaced. Not that the lack of would affect our final roster, but it removes the fun and naïveté when it comes to surprises and speculation, especially now when 99% of our speculation hinges on Gematsu.

Now, instead of hoping for Shulk in the same way I prayed for Mega Man, I'm simply expecting him. Sure I'll still be ridiculously hyped whenever he's revealed, but that level of excitement won't be the same knowing in the back of my head that Shulk is already a safe contender.

At the same time the leak braces myself early for the disappointment that may be about to come (Especially with Sakurai's barrel analogy), and for me that would primarily be the lack of Isaac, Ridley, King K Rool, and Mewtwo. While I still hope that at one of them will be revealed on Monday, or even in the near future, with a heavy heart I have to expect none of them just to stave off the discouragement later.

I'm still purchasing both versions on day one, and even if some of our most wanted characters aren't on the release roster, at the very least we can still rally for DLC down the road.

 

[xXIke-SamaXx]

Maybe it's easy to say now considering that many of my top newcomers actually made it into Smash (, , , , and most likely Shulk), but I kind of wished the Gematsu leak never surfaced. Not that the lack of would affect our final roster, but it removes the fun and naïveté when it comes to surprises and speculation, especially now when 99% of our speculation hinges on Gematsu.

Now, instead of hoping for Shulk in the same way I prayed for Mega Man, I'm simply expecting him. Sure I'll still be ridiculously hyped whenever he's revealed, but that level of excitement won't be the same knowing in the back of my head that Shulk is already a safe contender.

At the same time the leak braces myself early for the disappointment that may be about to come (Especially with Sakurai's barrel analogy), and for me that would primarily be the lack of Isaac, Ridley, King K Rool, and Mewtwo. While I still hope that at one of them will be revealed on Monday, or even in the near future, with a heavy heart I have to expect none of them just to stave off the discouragement later.

I'm still purchasing both versions on day one, and even if some of our most wanted characters aren't on the release roster, at the very least we can still rally for DLC down the road.

You know there are people who love leaks, right ? I'm one and I thank the Gematsu guy for the leaks! stop blaming leaks, it's the internet, you can't avoid leaks if you surf here..

 

[Kenith]

Yeah, I'm not a huge Shulk fan, like not at all, but he's really not a bad choice.

I'm hoping the revealed character isn't on the leak.

So, Ghirahim or Riddles McDiddles then? Or perhaps Lucina or Robin?
The latter two would seriously screw with the Gematsu leak.

I don't want to say I wouldn't love that...but I would love that.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

View attachment 17931 View attachment 17933 View attachment 17934

Oh yeah those are totally not large Kremlings

Hey, so's this one:



And that's the closest to being mentioned in this game that he's gotten!

Also, I'm bad at forums and grouped ultimatekoopa with Weeman. My bad!

Spoiler

You know, I like how you talk like if your opinion was a fact and how you are trying to "tell us the truth of the roster" when the last time you did it, you were wrong before

I dunno. It's no worse than you guys going "Ridley's totally in dumdums! Totally irrefutable evidence! These aren't straws, they're the planks of justice!"

1. Why is Ridley getting special treatment then? Why is he so small? Why is Ridley the only character that isn't deconfirmed in a moment like you know, 99% of the rest of the characters?

All of this straw grasping sounds a whole lot like this: http://smashboards.com/threads/ridley-is-here-confirm-boss-lucario-boss-battle-comparison.139575/

He's not small. His boss encounter is being hyped up. It's a tease of wouldn't you like to see this HD dragon? Bet you would! Don't worry, check it out in the release!

2. Large Kremling=/= Kremling with a crown, I mean, there are a lot of candidates

And K. Rool is the most recognizable and likely of all of them. Are you really saying K. Rool's not large?

3. All playable characters so far aren't downgraded, this is a pattern, also if you consider what sakurai said about he chooses pkmn then there is no doubt that mewtwo is likely, but you seem to hate mewtwo for some reason

Mewtwo got downgraded to unplayable, that's a pretty gnarly step. Boss seems to be a step up from that at least.

4. Little Mac last game was in 2009, pretty sure that doesn't make you retro

He's not a terribly well-known character and he was pretty much DOA until his recent game. Plus, he doubles as satisfying fan-requests!

False Sense second!

Spoiler

-Shadow of highly requested character shown during a section on bosses. No specification as to what it is we saw was given then, and it hasn't been mentioned since. This behavior is unusual for Sakurai if Ridley is truly a boss, as his methods of de-confirmation have always been quick and to the point. He tends to avoid creating unnecessary confusion in regards to what role characters have in Smash. This teasing of Ridley, with no direct confirmation of his role in the game, is contradictory to how Sakurai has always handled these matters. It does, however, match up with the kind of teasing characters like Palutena received prior to being revealed. That's also not going into a number of other things, such as the shadow itself and the unusual actions of this "boss."

He may not have realized just how tightly you'd be clinging to your straws. To him, he probably showcased a fated boss encounter quite well, teasing with the idea of finally seeing Ridley in HD. Again, I'm positive that even his direct words would be twisted so grotesquely as to spin Ridley's 'playability'.

-The person who said that was able to identify that it was a Kremling, but couldn't specify that it was K. Rool, the most iconic of them all. Also, Smash Run bosses so far have been generic mini-bosses from their respective series. A main antagonist like K. Rool does not fit the criteria. In other words, the possibility that this "big kremling" (which is just a rumor, anyway) is K. Rool is an unlikely one.

Just like Ridley doesn't fit being a boss, right? Despite everything we know and can reference pointing that way. That would probably be the best way to acknowledge K. Rool, because a lot of people will look at him and wonder just what they unlocked.

-True, Sakurai didn't specify what role Mega Mewtwo Y would have in the game. But the fact is that he could have been, and was most likely, referring to having Mega Mewtwo Y be playable to some extent, likely as a Final Smash. Frankly, this was a hint towards Mewtwo. You interpret it as referring to making Mega Mewtwo Y a boss, which, while a possibility, is not fact. Don't treat it like one.

Don't say 'most likely' as if you have some insider information on it either. Mewtwo got dumped out of Brawl, and will likely crawl back in as a Boss. Nevermind that there's additional ammo against him by Gematsu not mentioning his playability.

-Punch-Out Wii, and all the references to it that are in Smash.

And R.O.B. was in Mario Kart DS, but he was still a retro character.

 

[CrusherMania1592]

Why would wolf be cut?

I actually don't want Wolf to get cut. If Tink, Ike, and 'cario returned without a doubt, it's a no brainer that Wolf and Lucas are safe. Only way I can see Wolf getting cut is time constraints...which I don't think is gonna happen.

Well I guess a reveal on Monday makes sense. One this month, one in August, and one in Sept and then the game's out in Japan.

Nothing against the remaining newcomers, but I just wish there was a bit more surprise in who we get than I imagine there will be.

Unless I'm wrong, didn't they just announced this week the game is coming to Japan three weeks early?


Am I the only one here who isn't hoping for Shulk, Chrom, or Chorus Men/Marshall just to throw everyone off?

 

[Con0rrrr]

I actually don't want Wolf to get cut. If Tink, Ike, and 'cario returned without a doubt, it's a no brainer that Wolf and Lucas are safe. Only way I can see Wolf getting cut is time constraints...which I don't think is gonna happen.

Unless I'm wrong, didn't they just announced this week the game is coming to Japan three weeks early?


Am I the only one here who isn't hoping for Shulk, Chrom, or Chorus Men/Marshall just to throw everyone off?

You're definently not the only one. In fact, that is the popular opinion. It's just most likely Shulk

 

[Rockaphin]

So, Ghirahim or Riddles McDiddles then? Or perhaps Lucina or Robin?
The latter two would seriously screw with the Gematsu leak.

I don't want to say I wouldn't love that...but I would love that.

Sorry, Kenith, I'm not a fan of Ghirahim. at least he's appearing in Hyrule Warriors!
I would absolutely love to see Lucina or Robin though.

 

[Kenith]

Am I the only one here who isn't hoping for Shulk, Chrom, or Chorus Men/Marshall just to throw everyone off?

You mean, like everyone?

You don't think the majority of people betting on Shulk don't want someone like, Ridley or King K Rool, or something?
(I don't know what you kids are into, these days.)

 

[Jedisupersonic]

Just because I want Shulk or a new FE character doesn't mean I don't want people "outside" the leak.

I mean i'm one of the biggest Isaac supporters ever

 

[CrusherMania1592]

You mean, like everyone?

You don't think the majority of people betting on Shulk don't want someone like, Ridley or King K Rool, or something?
(I don't know what you kids are into, these days.)

Not exactly everyone, Perhaps majority fits better.

I'd just like to see someone who isn't on the leak for once to not only throw people off guard, but to still have people believing that Ridley, K Rool, and others have a shot instead of all the newcomers being from the leak plus Rosalina.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

Weeman first!

Spoiler

Hey, so's this one:

View attachment 17935

And that's the closest to being mentioned in this game that he's gotten!



I dunno. It's no worse than you guys going "Ridley's totally in dumdums! Totally irrefutable evidence! These aren't straws, they're the planks of justice!"

1. Why is Ridley getting special treatment then? Why is he so small? Why is Ridley the only character that isn't deconfirmed in a moment like you know, 99% of the rest of the characters?

Spoiler

All of this straw grasping sounds a whole lot like this: http://smashboards.com/threads/ridley-is-here-confirm-boss-lucario-boss-battle-comparison.139575/

He's not small. His boss encounter is being hyped up. It's a tease of wouldn't you like to see this HD dragon? Bet you would! Don't worry, check it out in the release!



And K. Rool is the most recognizable and likely of all of them. Are you really saying K. Rool's not large?



Mewtwo got downgraded to unplayable, that's a pretty gnarly step. Boss seems to be a step up from that at least.



He's not a terribly well-known character and he was pretty much DOA until his recent game. Plus, he doubles as satisfying fan-requests!

False Sense second!

[/quote]
He is not small...for a playable character, based on many analyzis he is about the same size of Rosalina and Bowser, So let me get this straight, Sakurai is hyping a character that has always been a boss? Without even saying his name? Of course I will check it on release when I play as him, also is funny considering that he hasn't hyped any other bosses yet, he hadn't said "Remember this guy from megaman?, HE IS NOW IN HD? Isn't that amazing?
And then is he is so recognizable then why didn't he said "Kremling with crown", "Kremling King", "the bad guy from DK"? Don't you think that if it was KKR he would have recognized him?
Except that Mewtwo was planned to return from the beginning, time issues didn't allow this however, He is not a terribly wrong character because you say so? Nice logic pal, the internet seems to disagree, mewtwo is currently one of the most popular pokemon right now, dude is funny how you are treating me like an idiot considering that last time you were so confident about your logic to the point of treating everyone like this,that you even bet your account on it and couldn't stay true to his word

 

[False Sense]

False Sense second!

He may not have realized just how tightly you'd be clinging to your straws. To him, he probably showcased a fated boss encounter quite well, teasing with the idea of finally seeing Ridley in HD. Again, I'm positive that even his direct words would be twisted so grotesquely as to spin Ridley's 'playability'.



Just like Ridley doesn't fit being a boss, right? Despite everything we know and can reference pointing that way. That would probably be the best way to acknowledge K. Rool, because a lot of people will look at him and wonder just what they unlocked.



Don't say 'most likely' as if you have some insider information on it either. Mewtwo got dumped out of Brawl, and will likely crawl back in as a Boss. Nevermind that there's additional ammo against him by Gematsu not mentioning his playability.



And R.O.B. was in Mario Kart DS, but he was still a retro character.

-That's just it, though. If Sakurai really did just tease a boss, and never intended for people to interpret it otherwise, why did he never clarify? He has always avoided causing this sort of confusion, especially when showing off the new Assist Trophies in battle. He makes it very clear that they aren't playable.I highly doubt he's completely oblivious to all the confusion regarding Ridley after the Direct. He's had all this time since the Smash Direct to show off Ridley as a boss and end all this once and for all, yet he hasn't. We Ridley supporters are not twisting anything Sakurai has said; we are interpreting it, much like you have with a number of these issues.

-The "large Kremling" being K. Rool doesn't make sense because of the evidence we've seen so far, as I've already stated. And K. Rool happens to be one of the single most popular character requests worldwide. He's not unknown.

-Don't say "most likely" as if you have some insider information on it either. We don't know what kind of a role Mewtwo will have in the game. There's much more evidence for him being playable than there is for being a boss. You just choose not to acknowledge it to any capacity.

-R.O.B being in Mario Kart DS is not the same as a series getting a new game. This is a pretty flawed comparison.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

I'm saying Shulk, K.Rool or Isaac.
I firmly believe Ridley is being revealed in August.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Not exactly everyone, Perhaps majority fits better.

I'd just like to see someone who isn't on the leak for once to not only throw people off guard, but to still have people believing that Ridley, K Rool, and others have a shot instead of all the newcomers being from the leak plus Rosalina.

Only way Gematsu starts to wobble is if either:

- A non-featured newcomer, or a veteran that's not part of the Safe 11(, , , , , , , , , , ) shows up..
- .. Or Lucas is revealed to still be in.


ultimatekooooopaaaaaaaaaaa

Spoiler

All of this straw grasping sounds a whole lot like this: http://smashboards.com/threads/ridley-is-here-confirm-boss-lucario-boss-battle-comparison.139575/

He is not small...for a playable character, based on many analyzis he is about the same size of Rosalina and Bowser, So let me get this straight, Sakurai is hyping a character that has always been a boss? Without even saying his name? Of course I will check it on release when I play as him, also is funny considering that he hasn't hyped any other bosses yet, he hadn't said "Remember this guy from megaman?, HE IS NOW IN HD? Isn't that amazing?

Yellow Devil never happened before as a boss or anything in Smash. Ridley has. It's kind of like when movie trailers will show the silhouette of a well-known character's archvillain, as though there were any actual mystery to it. No, it's to hype up the idea of 'oh man what's he look like i bet he looks cool i can't wait to see him wow!' And you're right, Ridley has been a boss. Twice. The funny part is, that little aspect works great as ammo against him, because we can have a boss for each platform! Ridley-Normal for 3DS, Meta Ridley for Wii U!

And then is he is so recognizable then why didn't he said "Kremling with crown", "Kremling King", "the bad guy from DK"

Can't say. Maybe it was someone who didn't know the character(I never played DKC either and only know of the fat lizard because everyone will not hush up about him). I'm not invested in DK.

Except that Mewtwo was planned to return from the beginning, time issues didn't allow this however, He is not a terribly wrong character because you say so? Nice logic pal, the internet seems to disagree, mewtwo is currently one of the most popular pokemon right now, dude is funny how you are treating me like an idiot considering that last time you were so confident about your logic to the point of treating everyone like this that you even bet your account on it and couldn't stay true to his word

The internet was convinced Mewtwo was in Brawl right up until it was released(and even a few days after!). The internet can be wrong. Also, I'll take my ban when the roster is fully unveiled(or 47 + R is unrefutable). It'll beat the flames that'll erupt around here. :D

And part the deux with False Sense!

Spoiler

-That's just it, though. If Sakurai really did just tease a boss, and never intended for people to interpret it otherwise, why did he never clarify? He has always avoided causing this sort of confusion, especially when showing off the new Assist Trophies in battle. He makes it very clear that they aren't playable.I highly doubt he's completely oblivious to all the confusion regarding Ridley after the Direct. He's had all this time since the Smash Direct to show off Ridley as a boss and end all this once and for all, yet he hasn't. We Ridley supporters are not twisting anything Sakurai has said; we are interpreting it, much like you have with a number of these issues.

He probably likes the idea of shrouding actual bosses in mystery. Note that in the Yellow Devil's first appearance, he wasn't identified either. Just a few seconds of him warping in. Only in the dedicated Direct did he not just put a name but an explanation to him. Then he tantalized with the idea of other bosses. One of which shows up at Pyrosphere, flies for an abnormally long time(Peach has ~3s of float, this was ~15s), and showed up only in the 'boss characters' segment.

-The "large Kremling" being K. Rool doesn't make sense because of the evidence we've seen so far, as I've already stated. And K. Rool happens to be one of the single most popular character requests worldwide. He's not unknown.

To the fanbase. To the world at large, perhaps he is. Not every intern or worker will know every character on the roster.

-Don't say "most likely" as if you have some insider information on it either. We don't know what kind of a role Mewtwo will have in the game. There's much more evidence for him being playable than there is for being a boss. You just choose not to acknowledge it to any capacity.

Present your evidence. Do it. Right now. I'll present mine.

- He was poorly received in Melee.
- He was a low priority in Brawl.
- He was cut from Brawl.
- Nothing in the game suggests his return. No stage, no music, no items, he didn't even get a boss tease.
- Gematsu's silence on him is damning. That means the status quo may be maintained for him(his unplayability).

-R.O.B being in Mario Kart DS is not the same as a series getting a new game. This is a pretty flawed comparison.

I fail to see the difference here. Isn't one of the bigger arguments for a different Retro some jobber named Takamaru? He was featured in a new game too, yet according to your logic...

Monday is a major tipping point for you guys, and if Gematsu continues to be proven right, well... You guys might want to start getting your Project M requests ready.

 

[Weeman]

Hey, so's this one:

View attachment 17935

And that's the closest to being mentioned in this game that he's gotten!

Except that so far we have evidence that these "Smash Run Bosses" are just larger enemies that sometimes get highlighted in events similar to those of City Trial, so far we have the likes of Bonkers, Reapers from KI: Uprising and Bulborbs

Now of course Kirbopher also mentioned Kraid, wich wouldn't fit in that description, however there is a posssiblity that "Kraid" actually refers to a smaller version of Kraid who appeared in Super Metroid

Wich would fit in the description of those Mini Bosses-like enemies we've seen so far.

So in conclusion K. Rool wouldn't fit in that role at all, but those other Kremlings (Krusha, Klubba, etc.) do fit, and since we have not seen evidence of larger bosses so far, the notion of having K. Rool treated as an oversized mook is ridiculous.

Now i know this doesn't confirm or disconfirm his appearance, since he could still be just a stage boss or even one if we get bosses on some sort of adventure mode, but as of now, there is no evidence towards that being the case, so you using it as a point against him is rather misinformed.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

Except that so far we have evidence that these "Smash Run Bosses" are just larger enemies that sometimes get highlighted in events similar to those of City Trial, so far we have the likes of Bonkers, Reapers from KI: Uprising and Bulborbs
View attachment 17938

Now of course Kirbopher also mentioned Kraid, wich wouldn't fit in that description, however there is a posssiblity that "Kraid" actually refers to a smaller version of Kraid who appeared in Super Metroid
View attachment 17939
Wich would fit in the description of those Mini Bosses-like enemies we've seen so far.

So in conclusion K. Rool wouldn't fit in that role at all, but those other Kremlings (Krusha, Klubba, etc.) do fit, and since we have not seen evidence of larger bosses so far, the notion of having K. Rool treated as an oversized mook is ridiculous.

Now i know this doesn't confirm or disconfirm his appearance, since he could still be just a stage boss or even one if we get bosses on some sort of adventure mode, but as of now, there is no evidence towards that being the case, so you using it as a point against him is rather misinformed.

Well then you using as a point of his inclusion is just as absurd, because it doesn't help your case either. So we're back to zero evidence except for Gematsu which doesn't mention K. Rool in any capacity.

 

[Zzuxon]

I don't think Ridley will be revealed pre release.
But I absolutely believe he is in.

 

[Weeman]

Well then you using as a point of his inclusion is just as absurd, because it doesn't help your case either. So we're back to zero evidence except for Gematsu which doesn't mention K. Rool in any capacity.

I never used it as evidence in his favor, i'm just saying that i find the notion of K. Rool casually walking along Goombas and Tikis is just ridiculous. Also you could still use it as evidence, since those Kremlings i mentioned have not appeared in a single game without K. Rool so far, wich would point to K. Rool being more than just a trophy, wether that means playable or Boss or AT we don't know of course.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

ultimatekooooopaaaaaaaaaaa

Spoiler

Yellow Devil never happened before as a boss or anything in Smash. Ridley has. It's kind of like when movie trailers will show the silhouette of a well-known character's archvillain, as though there were any actual mystery to it. No, it's to hype up the idea of 'oh man what's he look like i bet he looks cool i can't wait to see him wow!' And you're right, Ridley has been a boss. Twice. The funny part is, that little aspect works great as ammo against him, because we can have a boss for each platform! Ridley-Normal for 3DS, Meta Ridley for Wii U!



Can't say. Maybe it was someone who didn't know the character(I never played DKC either and only know of the fat lizard because everyone will not hush up about him). I'm not invested in DK.



The internet was convinced Mewtwo was in Brawl right up until it was released(and even a few days after!). The internet can be wrong. Also, I'll take my ban when the roster is fully unveiled(or 47 + R is unrefutable). It'll beat the flames that'll erupt around here. :D

So is he is hyping something that you can watch in youtube? You'll have to do way better than that pal, he didn't even said his name for god sake, by that logic he would be hyping everyone because it is the first time we see them in HD, you claim to understand sakurai mind but, How do you know it wasn't a tease, oh wait I know, Ridley is in HD for the first time, that is exciting
But the guy knew who the kremlings are, it would seem weird that he couldn't even say "lizard with a crown", your whole fact about king k rool is actually an assumption that you want to say as fact
Except that mewtwo is indeed very popular right now, bring me your evidence that mewtwo is "not popular now" considering that he is in almost every wi fi battle I see, nearly all gameplays capture him and used him, etc
your evidence for mewtwo is that he was bad received in Melee? Listen up everyone, Ganondorf is going to be a boss now because he sucked in both melee and brawl, lol, he was cut for brawl due to time issues, You wanna know who wasn't a playable character in melee due to time issues? KING FREAKING DEDEDE, and the last time I checked he wasn't a boss in brawl, and mewtwo not being in gematsu doesn't affect his chances in the slightest unless you think ganondorf, meta knight, R.O.B, etc is deconfirmed because they don't appear in the leak
Isn't this a deja vu? You claiming to know the truth about the roster, how you understand sakurai mind just to be wrong in the end

 

[False Sense]

And part the deux with False Sense!

He probably likes the idea of shrouding actual bosses in mystery. Note that in the Yellow Devil's first appearance, he wasn't identified either. Just a few seconds of him warping in. Only in the dedicated Direct did he not just put a name but an explanation to him. Then he tantalized with the idea of other bosses. One of which shows up at Pyrosphere, flies for an abnormally long time(Peach has ~3s of float, this was ~15s), and showed up only in the 'boss characters' segment.



To the fanbase. To the world at large, perhaps he is. Not every intern or worker will know every character on the roster.



Present your evidence. Do it. Right now. I'll present mine.

- He was poorly received in Melee.
- He was a low priority in Brawl.
- He was cut from Brawl.
- Nothing in the game suggests his return. No stage, no music, no items, he didn't even get a boss tease.
- Gematsu's silence on him is damning. That means the status quo may be maintained for him(his unplayability).



I fail to see the difference here. Isn't one of the bigger arguments for a different Retro some jobber named Takamaru? He was featured in a new game too, yet according to your logic...[/collapse]

-The Yellow Devil was very clearly not playable, it was obvious what he did, and wasn't actually a wanted character. Months after being teased with the reveal of the Pyrosphere, we only saw Ridley's shadow, and nothing else since. Also, Ridley having a unique flying mechanic is something that has been speculated about long before the Direct. It's not impossible. Speaking of which, it's worth noting how very uncharacteristically this "boss" acts. He flies in from the right of the stage, slowly, stops in the middle, appears to do absolutely nothing, then slowly flies off to the left of the stage, and then makes an immediate turn and starts flying towards the right. Basically, within that fairly large time frame, this "boss" does nothing. He doesn't attack or make any aggressive moves, he just slowly flies around the stage. That doesn't match up with any kind of boss behavior we've seen so far, and frankly it's just a bad design for a "boss."

-Not everyone knows him, but a lot of people do. He's not a complete unknown like you suggest.

-Well, this has been done numerous times by numerous people. so rather than wasting my time restating what has already been said, I'm going to reference this wonderful analysis below. But about one of your points, I fail to see what you mean by "no stage, no music, no items." Mewtwo is from an established series with plenty of content in Smash. It's not that Mewtwo hasn't been hinted at, it's that it's practically impossible for any of that to hint at him. I mean, what kind of Pokemon item do you think could possibly hint at Mewtwo? Also, the Poke Floats song from Melee, which was used as a sort of theme for Mewtwo, seems to be returning, so that's something.

Anyway, @BigAxle I hope you don't mind if I use this here.

Spoiler

The Facts/Pros:

-Mewtwo is ridiculously popular. No, I mean it. He’s not only the most requested character worldwide but he even tops newcomer requests for characters like Pac-Man, Megaman and King K Rool. As a result, he’s a character that many fans have clamored for since his conspicuous absence from Brawl.

-Mewtwo was not ever replaced by any character in Smash Bros. In fact, Mewtwo has been planned for every game, and likely even 4, if Sakurai’s comments hinting around the possibility of Mewtwo are anything to hear. While Sakurai is known for trolling, when it comes to a character of such a special situation, being requested so dearly, trolling the fans with Mewtwo being something else or trolling them about the character that’s most wanted in the world wouldn’t be a good PR strategy. As for how he’s been planned…

=An interview with Nintendo developers and Sakurai regarding Super Smash Bros 64 reveals that Mewtwo, Bowser and King Dedede were all planned for the first game, but in typical Sakurai fashion, were cut for timing issues.

=Mewtwo, along with Bowser and Dedede, were planned for Melee. While Bowser and Mewtwo made it in as newcomer, Dedede was cut for time constraints and 6 clones (Falco, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Roy, Ganondorf and Pichu) were placed in the game instead of the King.

=Dedede was eventually a newcomer for Smash 4, along with Meta Knight, giving two newcomers for Kirby. 5 characters, 4 being clones, were cut in Brawl, but the issue regarding these characters is the circumstances for their attendance taking a hit. It turns out that Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo were all planned for Brawl as their data was found on the disc as incomplete. While many speculate that they were imports, Mewtwo and Roy have special fanfares that go unused. Mewtwo appears to be the most complete of the unused characters, but the issue is what exactly caused him to not be in the final game. Many have speculated and said Lucario has directly replaced Lucario as a “clone”, but this is incorrect by factual levels.

Noticing a trend? Sakurai has trouble with time, because he takes his time making these games the best they can be.

-Lucario is not a clone of Mewtwo, straightforward and to the point. Even the move they are “considered to share” is different; Aura Sphere is a standard projectile and Shadow Ball travels as a Medusa Head pattern (coined from Castlevania’s Medusa enemies that flew in the titular path) and if 4’s to show anything, they’re barely alike in any way, shape or manner. Lucario is a physical fighter, and Mewtwo is a special one. Even moreso, Lucario’s Mega Evolution makes this even bigger of an obvious fallacy; Lucario’s Mega makes his Aura more powerful than before, something Mewtwo does not have. And speaking of Aura, I hope people get it that Aura=/=Mewtwo. Because the most aura Mewtwo gets ever in any single game is Aura Sphere, and many Pokemon learn Aura Sphere.

-Furthermore, to go onto the clone discussion, Clone Logic is dumb. By that Logic, a ton of characters are "Clones": Marth/Ike, Megaman/Sonic, Mario/Luigi, Charizard/Bowser, Kirby/Dedede, Little Mac/Greninja, the list goes on. Mewtwo and Lucario have different movesets, and they do not play the same at ALL, seriously. The Mega Evolution will only make this stand out.

-Lucario couldn’t have replaced Mewtwo if both were planned at the same time. That makes no sense to just do that in development and not get any bad PR, which Nintendo does not want. However, Brawl’s development is one thing that’s full of horrible planning, priority, bad balance, and poor Public Relations, which leads me to what actually managed to off Mewtwo and 6 other potential characters’ chances in Brawl…

-Sonic the Hedgehog. No, I kid you not. Sonic was not planned for Brawl at first, a widely known fact. He was only added as public demand grew to an insane level. Nintendo decided that he would give more profit to the game (which honestly was not a bad idea at first) but unlike Snake in Melee, they decided to not wait till next game and added him in as a late newcomer. However, being a third party results in not only a contract, but priority for his completion. What did this mean? This meant that pretty much most of the other newcomers and characters unfinished would get cut, so Sonic had to be rushed in an attempt to try and get them all done. This lead to a low quality Sonic in Brawl, and a mediocre representation as to how he played. However, it’s highly speculated that the three characters that managed to be completed that were likely already in development are Jiggs, Wolf and Toon Link, as they are late in the listings with Sonic.

-Oh, and if the trend of one character replacing another is any point, then wouldn’t Lucario get “replaced” by Greninja, who also is now being pinned as Mewtwo’s replacement? Even though Greninja plays like Strider, who doesn’t even remotely resemble Mewtwo in any way at all whatsoever? The logic behind it is flimsy and shoddy at best.

-Sakurai has dropped a hint about Mewtwo back at E3, when the roster was finalized already. The wording about this leads to the fact that Sakurai knows people want Mewtwo back in, and as a result, there’s absolutely no reason not to do so. However, he’s also noting that while the roster they have in mind is finalized, cuts are possible, which referred to any Smash character ever in the series. So far, Pokemon Trainer has been the only cut that is confirmed.

-So, with the newcomer for Pokemon revealed, many have speculated no more Pokemon characters. However, some main points are here to completely shoot that argument down.

=Brawl, as a whole, breaks this entire rule. The biggest examples come from Fire Emblem, Mother and Pokemon, ironically enough. Ike was revealed before unlockable veteran Marth. Lucas is the same with Ness. And Pokemon Trainer not only was revealed before Lucario, but ANOTHER veteran as well, Jigglypuff.

=Melee, as a whole, also breaks this entire rule. Bowser and Peach before Luigi and Dr. Mario is the main example of this occurring.

=Unlockable characters are pretty much a given at this point. Sonic and Megaman were revealed, but were unlockable. Unlocking characters, veterans and newcomers alike is not something foreign to Smash Bros, and with the way it’s looking right now, that seems to be the case. Only 29 characters have been revealed, and that seems fine considering the evolution of Smash’s Roster. The starting list will likely be 35, with a few more newcomers and veterans arriving. With those unlockables come Veterans and newcomers alike, and with the trend very likely being upheld, we can easily get another Pokemon Character.

-Mewtwo is a special case because of not only his status, but his renewed iconicness. Thanks to the Mega Evolution concept, Mewtwo has gained two new Mega Evolutions. With Game Freak essentially helping decide characters for Pokemon, it’d be a bad idea for them to have passed it up. Mewtwo’s even more special because of him being the only Legendary to Mega Evolve, allowing him to showcase Mega Evolutions, Legendary Pokemon and a famous icon from Pokemon. He’s also had two movies, now, a special (Mewtwo Returns) and is far more available than his current competition, Jigglypuff.

-In the condition that it’s a fight to see who stays, it’s likely to end in Mewtwo’s favor. Jigglypuff has seriously jumped out of the spotlight and now only clings onto dear life with the fact that she’s one of the original 12. However, that’s been shown to not always be helpful to her, as in Brawl she’s the last veteran returning to be completed according to disk data. That could very well be due to her spotlight and limelight time going away even before Brawl. Her inclusion in the original is because she was a model based on Kirby, and was easy to make for the development team given the time they had.

-Jigglypuff’s disadvantage is that the main reason it has been selected is because of the anime connection. It’s been iconic in the anime until a while back. Jigglypuff makes just minor, and minor appearances here and there. However, Mewtwo’s gotten more and more major roles.

-So certain to say we’ll get a grass type? Still doesn’t mean anything. We’re likely keeping Brawl’s count. Slots aren’t an issue, there was still a whopping plurality for Pokemon, outing above Zelda for two characters.

-6 characters for Pokémon are possible. It’s known that Sakurai doesn’t like to seriously go cut happy. So why would he get rid of 2 other Pokémon, one from Brawl as well? It’s very plausible given Brawl gave them technically 7 characters, as PT is counted as one by the disk. While 7 characters is very, very unlikely for us to see at the time and date, as with transformations gone, the characters we get are likely to be fleshed out.

-Squirtle and Ivysaur are likely getting a similar fate with PT. Having two starters of the same type is quite literally blasphermy, and with us getting at least one newcomer a game, and at least one Pokemon cut every single Smash Bros game, you can bet we’re losing at least one of them, since the cycle is caused by Game Freak’s decision in planning and promotion with it. (Note that Fire Emblem’s developers do not do this, but Sakurai does take their input). Pokemon is a mega-franchise that will showcase what would be desired best to show Pokemon, and Mewtwo fits the bill. HOWEVER, this does not mean Ivysaur or Squirtle are deconfirmed. Neither have been shown, therefore, until we see that 5th Pokemon, it’s a tossup. However, they appear as a pair; if one is deconfirmed, then the other may likely share the same fate, and if one is confirmed, it’s likely the other will be as well.

-Mewtwo is the most iconic legendary Pokemon. The Pikachu of legendaries. Some reasoning:

-One of the most iconic in the original games, still is today thanks to his resurgence with Megas.

-Mewtwo’s been planned for every freaking Smash game. If you didn’t get that earlier, please look above. Interviews have confirmed it, disk data has confirmed it. No way getting around it.

-Mewtwo has THREE Pokemon Specials, two being movies. He’s kind of like Ron Burgundy in Smash Bros. Oh, wait, what’s that? HE IS ALSO GOING TO BE IN THE NEXT POKEMON MOVIE, WHICH FEATURES MEGA EVOLUTIONS ALONG WITH DIANCIE.

-Mewtwo still fits the bill for playable. He’s appearing in X&Y (Like every single other playable character from Pokemon), is a rather important point in the game (showcases Mega Evolutions as their literal poster boy), is one of the games Legendaries, a very iconic element of Pokemon, is a new inclusion (Mega) that would work well in fighting (speculated to be a reason why Greninja may have been selected over anyone else). For Smash, he presents a unique playstyle that works with being a ranged fighter with excellent throws. Oh man, those throws. Even compared to the rest of the cast, he’s still quite unique, having an original moveset that no other character really copies from at all exactly. This original moveset is also why his cut was very controversial… many questioned it because the only other cuts were clones.

-Too many Megas? Spacies would like to see you. We got 3 Landmasters that were different, Megas are just like that. But then again they are to power up that character’s playstyle.

-Jigglypuff and Mewtwo can still coexist. Redundancy, but it’s important to note that some character will get cut in this process. Mewtwo, in addition, is a villainous character, something that Pokemon has mostly lacked. And Pokemon had the most playable characters as a series in Brawl, but no villain at all.

-Greninja is the Main Pokemon poster boy of Gen VI. Mewtwo’s the other side. I fail to see how Greninja detrimentally hurts Mewtwo when Squirtle has something to worry about.

-Mewtwo’s absence in the Direct helps him, it doesn’t hurt him. Why? The Trailer in the Direct pretty much showed off a large majority of the Pokeball Pokemon, killing off many, MANY potentials, such as Zoroark and the like. Mewtwo was not shown at all in the Direct. As for the actual gameplay? Mewtwo was not shown anywhere in gameplay. A large variety of other Pokemon were shown… Meowth, Deoxys, Zoroark, many other potentials with high chances… and Mewtwo wasn’t present. He’d likely turn into a Pokeball if he wasn’t playable to at least please fans.

-Ivysaur and Squirtle have a shot, though with another water type, it’s skeptical. Starters getting repeated has not occurred in Smash, and types have only been repeated once, with Pichu, who was the standout ridiculous iconic character at the time.

-Time constraints. Although seeing how we know the game’s been in development for two years, and there’s been two freaking teams working on this, I think time constraints aren’t going to be the largest issue.

-Sakurai’s pulling pranks on us. Ridley’s very controversial, but one cannot deny that it was very trollish. Same with Greninja looking like Mewtwo. Neither are 100% deconfirmed for various reasons.

-Muhrelevancy and muhrecency? Those are in Mewtwo’s favor, being relevant and recent, but someone will list them.

-According to my logic, Little Mac is not a retro character because his series has seen a recent release, and R.O.B. and Takamaru are still retro characters due to not having a recent installment in their series. At best, they've cameoed in other games.

 

[aldelaro5]

I don't think Ridley will be revealed pre release.
But I absolutely believe he is in.

Feel the same though if Sakurai just implicitly allude to him on the same stage again, I swear he's 99% confirmed from the way I see it.

 

[Silverjay323]

What I don't get is the fact that people are undermining the roster simply because it's likely it may exclude two popular choices... it's not perfect bye any means, but with things like unwavering gematsu faith people have ruined it for themselves...but I digress.

 

[egaddmario]

Only way Gematsu starts to wobble is if either:

- A non-featured newcomer, or a veteran that's not part of the Safe 11(, , , , , , , , , , ) shows up..
- .. Or Lucas is revealed to still be in.


ultimatekooooopaaaaaaaaaaa

Spoiler

Yellow Devil never happened before as a boss or anything in Smash. Ridley has. It's kind of like when movie trailers will show the silhouette of a well-known character's archvillain, as though there were any actual mystery to it. No, it's to hype up the idea of 'oh man what's he look like i bet he looks cool i can't wait to see him wow!' And you're right, Ridley has been a boss. Twice. The funny part is, that little aspect works great as ammo against him, because we can have a boss for each platform! Ridley-Normal for 3DS, Meta Ridley for Wii U!


Can't say. Maybe it was someone who didn't know the character(I never played DKC either and only know of the fat lizard because everyone will not hush up about him). I'm not invested in DK.



The internet was convinced Mewtwo was in Brawl right up until it was released(and even a few days after!). The internet can be wrong. Also, I'll take my ban when the roster is fully unveiled(or 47 + R is unrefutable). It'll beat the flames that'll erupt around here. :D

And part the deux with False Sense!

Spoiler

He probably likes the idea of shrouding actual bosses in mystery. Note that in the Yellow Devil's first appearance, he wasn't identified either. Just a few seconds of him warping in. Only in the dedicated Direct did he not just put a name but an explanation to him. Then he tantalized with the idea of other bosses. One of which shows up at Pyrosphere, flies for an abnormally long time(Peach has ~3s of float, this was ~15s), and showed up only in the 'boss characters' segment.



To the fanbase. To the world at large, perhaps he is. Not every intern or worker will know every character on the roster.



Present your evidence. Do it. Right now. I'll present mine.

- He was poorly received in Melee.
- He was a low priority in Brawl.
- He was cut from Brawl.
- Nothing in the game suggests his return. No stage, no music, no items, he didn't even get a boss tease.
- Gematsu's silence on him is damning. That means the status quo may be maintained for him(his unplayability).



I fail to see the difference here. Isn't one of the bigger arguments for a different Retro some jobber named Takamaru? He was featured in a new game too, yet according to your logic...

Monday is a major tipping point for you guys, and if Gematsu continues to be proven right, well... You guys might want to start getting your Project M requests ready.

You realize the Gematsu leak doesn't falter at all if someone not on it is confirmed, right? It says these characters are in not AREN'T in. You can't judge the leak on what it DOESN'T have. If that was the case, Rosalina being confirmed would hurt the leak, which is doesn't. And it said Lucas MIGHT be cut, not will. Lucas being reconfirmed still doesn't hurt it.

 

[Cobalsh]

Well then you using as a point of his inclusion is just as absurd, because it doesn't help your case either. So we're back to zero evidence except for Gematsu which doesn't mention K. Rool in any capacity.

... How is this a bad thing? I would rather have zero evidence of his presence than a deconfirmation. And I think other people would, too.


I also noticed your only reason to carry on this argument is becasue you for some reason don't like Ridley, K. Rool, or Mewtwo, which means you're either trying to be a hipster (the most likely scenario, given Snype and Ehl oh ehl) and pretending not to like popular characters, or you just really hate these three specifically.

 

[False Sense]

... How is this a bad thing? I would rather have zero evidence of his presence than a deconfirmation. And I think other people would, too.

I agree. Having zero evidence isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, look at Shulk. There's pretty much nothing confirmed so far that hints at his presence in the game, and yet here we all are thinking he'll be revealed on Monday. Just because there's no in-game evidence that hints towards a character's inclusion doesn't mean that character isn't in the game.

 

[Cobalsh]

I agree. Having zero evidence isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, look at Shulk. There's pretty much nothing confirmed so far that hints at his presence in the game, and yet here we all are thinking he'll be revealed on Monday. Just because there's no in-game evidence that hints towards a character's inclusion doesn't mean that character isn't in the game.

No evidence for Shulk? I thought someone said they saw Metal Face or whatever his name is as a side boss in Smash Run?

 

[False Sense]

No evidence for Shulk? I thought someone said they saw Metal Face or whatever his name is as a side boss in Smash Run?

Maybe. I never heard that. But even then, that seems to be just a rumor at this point. And the fact remains that there has been no official acknowledgement from Sakurai about any Xenoblade content being in the game. No stages, no items, no music, nothing. And despite all that, most of us are pretty sure Shulk is going to be in anyway.

 

[egaddmario]

No evidence for Shulk? I thought someone said they saw Metal Face or whatever his name is as a side boss in Smash Run?

Haven't heard that one before

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

There's no reason to believe Mewtwo couldn't just be added as DLC. If he isn't in initially (which I think might happen), he's probably going to be DLC. At least I would think.

People, I think the leak gives us the roster. As in, the roster will be 47+Random. But DLC will probably be a thing and add to that number.

 

[EbonyRubberWolf]

So is he is hyping something that you can watch in youtube? You'll have to do way better than that pal, he didn't even said his name for god sake, by that logic he wuld be hyping everyone because it is the first time we see them in HD

Er, yes he is? Of course he would want to hype how good everyone looks. They're consciously pushing the HD capabilities of the Wii U.

But the guy knew who the kremlings are, it would seem weird that he couldn't even say "lizard with a crown", your whole fact about king k rool is actually an assumption that you want to say as fact

Okay. Maybe the name escaped him, maybe he's being coy, who knows. Why didn't he name one of the others then? Or specify that it was not K. Rool?

Except that mewtwo is indeed very popular right now, bring me your evidence that mewtwo is "not popular now" considering that he is in almost every wi fi battle I see, nearly all gameplays capture him and used him, etc

I never saw the appeal. I have my Xerneas and I'm happy.

your evidence for mewtwo is that he was bad received in Melee? Listen up everyone, Ganondorf is going to be a boss now because he sucked in both melee and brawl, lol, he was cut for brawl due to time issues, You wanna know who wasn't a playable character in melee due to time issues? KING FREAKING DEDEDE, and the last time I checked he wasn't a boss in brawl, and mewtwo not being in gematsu doesn't affect his chances in the slightest unless you think ganondorf, meta knight, R.O.B, etc is deconfirmed because they don't appear in the leak

YES. YES. YES. I've got you on the hook now homeboy.

Gematsu is saying a lot more than it lets on. Not only is what it states important, what it doesn't state is important too. Gematsu did talk about veterans, namely Ness and Lucas. Why them? Because the status quo was changing in regard to them. Why not mention the others? Because the status quo isn't changing for them. They're still playable. So why not mention Mewtwo? His status is the same as well, so he doesn't need to be mentioned. He's not playable.

'WAIT, you devilishly shiny rogue!' you might say. 'Rosalina wasn't mentioned either, and neither were Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Snake! What about them?'

That's simple. Evidence was abound which was already confirming their cases. Rosalina was revealed by Nintendo before the leaker revealed her, so there was no need to mention her. Ivy and Squirt's cut is obvious enough from the April 8th Direct that oversaw the demise of PT. No need to mention them.

I can't explain why the leak is being done the way it is, but the simple fact is thus: He started with six characters, proceeded to get all of them, named five more, and is well on his way to getting all of them as well. No errors. No foul-ups. In the third version of the leak, there were no new characters mentioned. That tells me that there are no more characters after the last three are revealed.

I could mention my other theories....

-The Yellow Devil was very clearly not playable, it was obvious what he did, and wasn't actually a wanted character. Months after being teased with the reveal of the Pyrosphere, we only saw Ridley's shadow, and nothing else since. Also, Ridley having a unique flying mechanic is something that has been speculated about long before the Direct. It's not impossible. Speaking of which, it's worth noting how very uncharacteristically this "boss" acts. He flies in from the right of the stage, slowly, stops in the middle, appears to do absolutely nothing, then slowly flies off to the left of the stage, and then makes an immediate turn and starts flying towards the right. Basically, within that fairly large time frame, this "boss" does nothing. He doesn't attack or make any aggressive moves, he just slowly flies around the stage. That doesn't match up with any kind of boss behavior we've seen so far, and frankly it's just a bad design for a "boss."

Again, a Boss Hazard shows up to mix up the fight a bit, not outright dominate it. Ridley should go down relatively easily and quickly if the players focus on him(and it need not even be all of them, YD got messed up in a big hurry in the Direct footage). What're you expecting, a fight as fast as Prime or Super? That'd completely disrupt the battle. Plus, again, his boss AI may not have been completely finished yet, either. So that may have been all they had and just ran with it. It's not like programming a Boss Hazard is easy. It's not as involved as a character, but it's still a good amount of work!

-Not everyone knows him, but a lot of people do. He's not a complete unknown like you suggest.

Gematsu doesn't state his inclusion as a playable character. This is a leak that updated itself twice, and has done so with perfect accuracy. K. Rool doesn't grace it at all, even as a mention.

-Well, this has been done numerous times by numerous people. so rather than wasting my time restating what has already been said, I'm going to reference this wonderful analysis below. But about one of your points, I fail to see what you mean by "no stage, no music, no items." Mewtwo is from an established series with plenty of content in Smash. It's not that Mewtwo hasn't been hinted at, it's that it's practically impossible for any of that to hint at him. I mean, what kind of Pokemon item do you think could possibly hint at Mewtwo? Also, the Poke Floats song from Melee, which was used as a sort of theme for Mewtwo, seems to be returning, so that's something.

Cerulean Cave? Pokemon Forest? Wherever else he appears in the movies he's in? The Rocket Lab?

Anyway, @BigAxle I hope you don't mind if I use this here.

Oh piddles, it's huge!

Spoiler

The Facts/Pros:

I'll supply the Cons/er, nonfacts? I dunno. Still facts, but not as folk want them.

-Mewtwo is ridiculously popular. No, I mean it. He’s not only the most requested character worldwide but he even tops newcomer requests for characters like Pac-Man, Megaman and King K Rool. As a result, he’s a character that many fans have clamored for since his conspicuous absence from Brawl.

Popularity means nothing. If I had the link on me, I'd happily toss you back in time to the Brawl forums circa Jan. 28th when R.O.B. got confirmed and the place got nasty, all because people figured 'X character is ultra-popular and requested and SAKURAI'S POLL and what could possibly go wrong?!'

-Mewtwo was not ever replaced by any character in Smash Bros. In fact, Mewtwo has been planned for every game, and likely even 4, if Sakurai’s comments hinting around the possibility of Mewtwo are anything to hear. While Sakurai is known for trolling, when it comes to a character of such a special situation, being requested so dearly, trolling the fans with Mewtwo being something else or trolling them about the character that’s most wanted in the world wouldn’t be a good PR strategy. As for how he’s been planned…

Lawl. People will still buy the game regardless of Mewtwo's status. They did in Brawl, after all. Sakurai's comment is completely unsuitable for evidence one way or the other.

=An interview with Nintendo developers and Sakurai regarding Super Smash Bros 64 reveals that Mewtwo, Bowser and King Dedede were all planned for the first game, but in typical Sakurai fashion, were cut for timing issues.

Kay.

=Mewtwo, along with Bowser and Dedede, were planned for Melee. While Bowser and Mewtwo made it in as newcomer, Dedede was cut for time constraints and 6 clones (Falco, Dr. Mario, Young Link, Roy, Ganondorf and Pichu) were placed in the game instead of the King.

Kay.

=Dedede was eventually a newcomer for Smash 4, along with Meta Knight, giving two newcomers for Kirby. 5 characters, 4 being clones, were cut in Brawl, but the issue regarding these characters is the circumstances for their attendance taking a hit. It turns out that Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo were all planned for Brawl as their data was found on the disc as incomplete. While many speculate that they were imports, Mewtwo and Roy have special fanfares that go unused. Mewtwo appears to be the most complete of the unused characters, but the issue is what exactly caused him to not be in the final game. Many have speculated and said Lucario has directly replaced Lucario as a “clone”, but this is incorrect by factual levels.

Not completely true. Mewtwo may have been cut for time but that means he wasn't very high-priority if he was being worked on last. Which probably means Mewtwo was deemed expendable, at least more so than Puff.

Noticing a trend? Sakurai has trouble with time, because he takes his time making these games the best they can be.

Kay.

-Lucario is not a clone of Mewtwo, straightforward and to the point. Even the move they are “considered to share” is different; Aura Sphere is a standard projectile and Shadow Ball travels as a Medusa Head pattern (coined from Castlevania’s Medusa enemies that flew in the titular path) and if 4’s to show anything, they’re barely alike in any way, shape or manner. Lucario is a physical fighter, and Mewtwo is a special one. Even moreso, Lucario’s Mega Evolution makes this even bigger of an obvious fallacy; Lucario’s Mega makes his Aura more powerful than before, something Mewtwo does not have. And speaking of Aura, I hope people get it that Aura=/=Mewtwo. Because the most aura Mewtwo gets ever in any single game is Aura Sphere, and many Pokemon learn Aura Sphere.

Right, Lucario isn't Mewtwo's clone, Lucario is his replacement.

-Furthermore, to go onto the clone discussion, Clone Logic is dumb. By that Logic, a ton of characters are "Clones": Marth/Ike, Megaman/Sonic, Mario/Luigi, Charizard/Bowser, Kirby/Dedede, Little Mac/Greninja, the list goes on. Mewtwo and Lucario have different movesets, and they do not play the same at ALL, seriously. The Mega Evolution will only make this stand out.

-Lucario couldn’t have replaced Mewtwo if both were planned at the same time. That makes no sense to just do that in development and not get any bad PR, which Nintendo does not want. However, Brawl’s development is one thing that’s full of horrible planning, priority, bad balance, and poor Public Relations, which leads me to what actually managed to off Mewtwo and 6 other potential characters’ chances in Brawl…

This is a difficult statement to parse. That said, Mewtwo was likely either not as high a priority as Lucario or he was being worked on initially and the team decided he wasn't worth it.

-Sonic the Hedgehog. No, I kid you not. Sonic was not planned for Brawl at first, a widely known fact. He was only added as public demand grew to an insane level. Nintendo decided that he would give more profit to the game (which honestly was not a bad idea at first) but unlike Snake in Melee, they decided to not wait till next game and added him in as a late newcomer. However, being a third party results in not only a contract, but priority for his completion. What did this mean? This meant that pretty much most of the other newcomers and characters unfinished would get cut, so Sonic had to be rushed in an attempt to try and get them all done. This lead to a low quality Sonic in Brawl, and a mediocre representation as to how he played. However, it’s highly speculated that the three characters that managed to be completed that were likely already in development are Jiggs, Wolf and Toon Link, as they are late in the listings with Sonic.

Sonic cramped the timeline, yes, but that wasn't the only reason. If Mewtwo was such a big name, he should have probably been finished first, not saved until that close to the deadline. He was already on a back burner, and his flame just went out.

-Oh, and if the trend of one character replacing another is any point, then wouldn’t Lucario get “replaced” by Greninja, who also is now being pinned as Mewtwo’s replacement? Even though Greninja plays like Strider, who doesn’t even remotely resemble Mewtwo in any way at all whatsoever? The logic behind it is flimsy and shoddy at best.

Don't get it, but I'll try. Mewtwo was replaced in the sense that he was no longer deemed necessary to the roster. Now there's a body where his used to be. Maybe not the same skills or looks, but the slot is taken. No backsies!

-Sakurai has dropped a hint about Mewtwo back at E3, when the roster was finalized already. The wording about this leads to the fact that Sakurai knows people want Mewtwo back in, and as a result, there’s absolutely no reason not to do so. However, he’s also noting that while the roster they have in mind is finalized, cuts are possible, which referred to any Smash character ever in the series. So far, Pokemon Trainer has been the only cut that is confirmed.

They likely wouldn't ever announce cuts, but there's a whirlwind of evidence that suggests at least four are gone. As far as the 'hint', it could be anything from a trophy, to a Boss Hazard/Encounter.

-So, with the newcomer for Pokemon revealed, many have speculated no more Pokemon characters. However, some main points are here to completely shoot that argument down.

=Brawl, as a whole, breaks this entire rule. The biggest examples come from Fire Emblem, Mother and Pokemon, ironically enough. Ike was revealed before unlockable veteran Marth. Lucas is the same with Ness. And Pokemon Trainer not only was revealed before Lucario, but ANOTHER veteran as well, Jigglypuff.

=Melee, as a whole, also breaks this entire rule. Bowser and Peach before Luigi and Dr. Mario is the main example of this occurring.

Er, well, I don't really see that as anything necessary to point out, and I'm not seeing how this helps anyone's case.

=Unlockable characters are pretty much a given at this point. Sonic and Megaman were revealed, but were unlockable. Unlocking characters, veterans and newcomers alike is not something foreign to Smash Bros, and with the way it’s looking right now, that seems to be the case. Only 29 characters have been revealed, and that seems fine considering the evolution of Smash’s Roster. The starting list will likely be 35, with a few more newcomers and veterans arriving. With those unlockables come Veterans and newcomers alike, and with the trend very likely being upheld, we can easily get another Pokemon Character.

Actually, Namco's done fighters with no unlockable characters in recent years, and the split-format deal of the game may indeed have few or no unlockable characters due to the intense distaste many players will have with having to unlock them twice.

-Mewtwo is a special case because of not only his status, but his renewed iconicness. Thanks to the Mega Evolution concept, Mewtwo has gained two new Mega Evolutions. With Game Freak essentially helping decide characters for Pokemon, it’d be a bad idea for them to have passed it up. Mewtwo’s even more special because of him being the only Legendary to Mega Evolve, allowing him to showcase Mega Evolutions, Legendary Pokemon and a famous icon from Pokemon. He’s also had two movies, now, a special (Mewtwo Returns) and is far more available than his current competition, Jigglypuff.

-In the condition that it’s a fight to see who stays, it’s likely to end in Mewtwo’s favor. Jigglypuff has seriously jumped out of the spotlight and now only clings onto dear life with the fact that she’s one of the original 12. However, that’s been shown to not always be helpful to her, as in Brawl she’s the last veteran returning to be completed according to disk data. That could very well be due to her spotlight and limelight time going away even before Brawl. Her inclusion in the original is because she was a model based on Kirby, and was easy to make for the development team given the time they had.

-Jigglypuff’s disadvantage is that the main reason it has been selected is because of the anime connection. It’s been iconic in the anime until a while back. Jigglypuff makes just minor, and minor appearances here and there. However, Mewtwo’s gotten more and more major roles.

Jiggly's playstyle is completely unique and she's been a staple of the series ever since her inclusion. To be rid of her would be to be rid of Captain Falcon. She gets in on Smash seniority, even if she's faded from grace. Remember, she was one of the poster kids for the new type, Fairy. Don't count her out yet. Also, remember Sakurai bias. He likes Jiggly, and that's probably her greatest shield.

-So certain to say we’ll get a grass type? Still doesn’t mean anything. We’re likely keeping Brawl’s count. Slots aren’t an issue, there was still a whopping plurality for Pokemon, outing above Zelda for two characters.

Nope, no grass type.

-6 characters for Pokémon are possible. It’s known that Sakurai doesn’t like to seriously go cut happy. So why would he get rid of 2 other Pokémon, one from Brawl as well? It’s very plausible given Brawl gave them technically 7 characters, as PT is counted as one by the disk. While 7 characters is very, very unlikely for us to see at the time and date, as with transformations gone, the characters we get are likely to be fleshed out.

Ugh, this argument. I'll just say Mario Theory and be done.

-Squirtle and Ivysaur are likely getting a similar fate with PT. Having two starters of the same type is quite literally blasphermy, and with us getting at least one newcomer a game, and at least one Pokemon cut every single Smash Bros game, you can bet we’re losing at least one of them, since the cycle is caused by Game Freak’s decision in planning and promotion with it. (Note that Fire Emblem’s developers do not do this, but Sakurai does take their input). Pokemon is a mega-franchise that will showcase what would be desired best to show Pokemon, and Mewtwo fits the bill. HOWEVER, this does not mean Ivysaur or Squirtle are deconfirmed. Neither have been shown, therefore, until we see that 5th Pokemon, it’s a tossup. However, they appear as a pair; if one is deconfirmed, then the other may likely share the same fate, and if one is confirmed, it’s likely the other will be as well.

Squirtle and Ivysaur are dead and gone. They won't be playable except, maybe, as DLC.

-Mewtwo is the most iconic legendary Pokemon. The Pikachu of legendaries. Some reasoning:

-One of the most iconic in the original games, still is today thanks to his resurgence with Megas.

Careful with that. Since the game's on two platforms, each Mega can serve as a unique Boss Encounter per system..

-Mewtwo’s been planned for every freaking Smash game. If you didn’t get that earlier, please look above. Interviews have confirmed it, disk data has confirmed it. No way getting around it.

Okay. He was anticipated in 64, finally actualized in Melee, and then was deemed unworthy in Brawl. Time constraints are whatever, you don't put your big hitters on the back burners, especially if a time crunch has a possibility of showing up.

-Mewtwo has THREE Pokemon Specials, two being movies. He’s kind of like Ron Burgundy in Smash Bros. Oh, wait, what’s that? HE IS ALSO GOING TO BE IN THE NEXT POKEMON MOVIE, WHICH FEATURES MEGA EVOLUTIONS ALONG WITH DIANCIE.

"Just because you try hard doesn't mean you'll make it into the battle."

-Mewtwo still fits the bill for playable. He’s appearing in X&Y (Like every single other playable character from Pokemon), is a rather important point in the game (showcases Mega Evolutions as their literal poster boy), is one of the games Legendaries, a very iconic element of Pokemon, is a new inclusion (Mega) that would work well in fighting (speculated to be a reason why Greninja may have been selected over anyone else). For Smash, he presents a unique playstyle that works with being a ranged fighter with excellent throws. Oh man, those throws. Even compared to the rest of the cast, he’s still quite unique, having an original moveset that no other character really copies from at all exactly. This original moveset is also why his cut was very controversial… many questioned it because the only other cuts were clones.

lol mewtwo clone cut joke

But seriously, it was Lucario that was the main showcase of Mega Evolutions. You spend an entire chunk of the game working with a Lucario and your very first Mega is Lucario(I refused it, mega evos are wonky). Kung-fu Anubis has been getting mad play lately, and Game Freak knows he's really popular.

-Too many Megas? Spacies would like to see you. We got 3 Landmasters that were different, Megas are just like that. But then again they are to power up that character’s playstyle.

I guess.

-Jigglypuff and Mewtwo can still coexist. Redundancy, but it’s important to note that some character will get cut in this process. Mewtwo, in addition, is a villainous character, something that Pokemon has mostly lacked. And Pokemon had the most playable characters as a series in Brawl, but no villain at all.

Untrue as per Mario Theory.

-Greninja is the Main Pokemon poster boy of Gen VI. Mewtwo’s the other side. I fail to see how Greninja detrimentally hurts Mewtwo when Squirtle has something to worry about.

Squirtle died the second transformations were announced as killed and Charizard showed up. Greninja hurt Mewtwo because now he's in direct competition with Puff, who enjoys not just O12 status but Sakurai bias as well.

-Mewtwo’s absence in the Direct helps him, it doesn’t hurt him. Why? The Trailer in the Direct pretty much showed off a large majority of the Pokeball Pokemon, killing off many, MANY potentials, such as Zoroark and the like. Mewtwo was not shown at all in the Direct. As for the actual gameplay? Mewtwo was not shown anywhere in gameplay. A large variety of other Pokemon were shown… Meowth, Deoxys, Zoroark, many other potentials with high chances… and Mewtwo wasn’t present. He’d likely turn into a Pokeball if he wasn’t playable to at least please fans.

Or a Boss Encounter/Hazard.

-Ivysaur and Squirtle have a shot, though with another water type, it’s skeptical. Starters getting repeated has not occurred in Smash, and types have only been repeated once, with Pichu, who was the standout ridiculous iconic character at the time.

They are dead. DLC is their only hope.

-Time constraints. Although seeing how we know the game’s been in development for two years, and there’s been two freaking teams working on this, I think time constraints aren’t going to be the largest issue.

What's this? Echoes of Brawl, I hear?

-Sakurai’s pulling pranks on us. Ridley’s very controversial, but one cannot deny that it was very trollish. Same with Greninja looking like Mewtwo. Neither are 100% deconfirmed for various reasons.

Whatever you tell yourself. When visual evidence isn't working, I just give up.

-Muhrelevancy and muhrecency? Those are in Mewtwo’s favor, being relevant and recent, but someone will list them.

Jiggs has those as well as seniority.

-According to my logic, Little Mac is not a retro character because his series has seen a recent release, and R.O.B. and Takamaru are still retro characters due to not having a recent installment in their series. At best, they've cameoed in other games.[/quote]

Eh. I still think Mac's gonna count as the retro this time around, because there's no newcomer approaching that fits otherwise.

I agree. Having zero evidence isn't necessarily a bad thing. I mean, look at Shulk. There's pretty much nothing confirmed so far that hints at his presence in the game, and yet here we all are thinking he'll be revealed on Monday. Just because there's no in-game evidence that hints towards a character's inclusion doesn't mean that character isn't in the game.

Shulk is confirmed playable by Gematsu. K. Rool doesn't have anything like that.

Man that's a lot of words. >.>;

... How is this a bad thing? I would rather have zero evidence of his presence than a deconfirmation. And I think other people would, too.


I also noticed your only reason to carry on this argument is becasue you for some reason don't like Ridley, K. Rool, or Mewtwo, which means you're either trying to be a hipster (the most likely scenario, given Snype and Ehl oh ehl) and pretending not to like popular characters, or you just really hate these three specifically.

I carry on the argument because folk are utterly convinced that anything outside of Gematsu is possible when there's no evidence to that effect. Period.

 

[Deleted member]

Lets be honest here, its gotta be a Chrom reveal...I'm just feeling it will happen.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

It appears we're having a heated argument about the SAME stuff last time I was here.

This is pointless. If you guys don't change the subject or keep things cool, I'm handing out infractions. Letting you all know now.

 

[ultimatekoopa]

Er, yes he is? Of course he would want to hype how good everyone looks. They're consciously pushing the HD capabilities of the Wii U.



Okay. Maybe the name escaped him, maybe he's being coy, who knows. Why didn't he name one of the others then? Or specify that it was not K. Rool?



I never saw the appeal. I have my Xerneas and I'm happy.



YES. YES. YES. I've got you on the hook now homeboy.

Gematsu is saying a lot more than it lets on. Not only is what it states important, what it doesn't state is important too. Gematsu did talk about veterans, namely Ness and Lucas. Why them? Because the status quo was changing in regard to them. Why not mention the others? Because the status quo isn't changing for them. They're still playable. So why not mention Mewtwo? His status is the same as well, so he doesn't need to be mentioned. He's not playable.

'WAIT, you devilishly shiny rogue!' you might say. 'Rosalina wasn't mentioned either, and neither were Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Snake! What about them?'

That's simple. Evidence was abound which was already confirming their cases. Rosalina was revealed by Nintendo before the leaker revealed her, so there was no need to mention her. Ivy and Squirt's cut is obvious enough from the April 8th Direct that oversaw the demise of PT. No need to mention them.

I can't explain why the leak is being done the way it is, but the simple fact is thus: He started with six characters, proceeded to get all of them, named five more, and is well on his way to getting all of them as well. No errors. No foul-ups. In the third version of the leak, there were no new characters mentioned. That tells me that there are no more characters after the last three are revealed.

I could mention my other theories....



Again, a Boss Hazard shows up to mix up the fight a bit, not outright dominate it. Ridley should go down relatively easily and quickly if the players focus on him(and it need not even be all of them, YD got messed up in a big hurry in the Direct footage). What're you expecting, a fight as fast as Prime or Super? That'd completely disrupt the battle. Plus, again, his boss AI may not have been completely finished yet, either. So that may have been all they had and just ran with it. It's not like programming a Boss Hazard is easy. It's not as involved as a character, but it's still a good amount of work!



Gematsu doesn't state his inclusion as a playable character. This is a leak that updated itself twice, and has done so with perfect accuracy. K. Rool doesn't grace it at all, even as a mention.







Untrue as per Mario Theory.



[/collapse]

So why is Sakurai hyping only 1 boss and not the others? Ridley has been a boss in all appereances and I don't know where did you get the idea that people would be hyped about that, he is an small and slow boss, that seems more like a hype killer, it seems you just wrote the first excuse that you came up with, I have seen better excuses in gamefaqs and that says a lot
King K rool is way more popular than the rest of the kremlings, maybe it is literally a bigger kritter, nothing special at all, I don't know, Maybe...Because the kremling he saw wasn't King K rool? You can't use this as evidence against his inclusion
So you are saying that mewtwo is deconfirmed because he isn't mentioned in the leak? Honestly that seems to come directly from your rectus, you are assuming that all the veterans not mentioned by the leak except those are confirmed, but, What if he doesn't consider mewtwo important?, all your argument relies on assumptions but you think so high of yourself that call it a fact, just like the last time, your last comment just shows that you simply hate mewtwo, you don't see the appeal, but nearly everybody else does

 

[queenrosetta]

Ummm just a friendly reminder. Kremlins were in super mario strikers without k rool . Ok back to your regularly scheduled debates