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Character Competitive Impressions

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NachoOfCheese

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I honestly think it's something like this considering potential and matchups, but not characters difficulty
Viable Tier 1:4diddy::4sonic::4sheik::4zss:
Viable Tier 2:4fox::4luigi::rosalina::4olimar::4pikachu::4ness:
Viable Tier 3:4yoshi::4falcon::4darkpit::4mario::4pit::4peach::4villager:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not bad:4bowserjr::4charizard::4greninja::4jigglypuff::4myfriends::4megaman::4miibrawl::4rob::4robinm::4samus::4shulk::4wario::4wiifitm::4palutena::4dedede:

the rest is ....
I've noticed more and more people are finally putting Olimar up in the high tier. I figured that's where he should've been from the start but I haven't explored him as a character that much. What's he got going for him? I'm curious.
 

Killtrox

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I honestly think Sheik is overrated. She has an amazing combo game, sure, but that still has to be consistently applied to upwards of 130% on other cast members before she can even dream of getting a kill, partially because she has no spike. In the meantime, plenty of characters can kill her below 100%.

She's definitely good, but she requires much more consistency than other high-tier characters.
 

Smog Frog

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the ****** still racks up damage at wtf rates(he can do 21% in the span of a second), still has his strong defensive game, and has a better recovery.
 

HeroMystic

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Sheik can be killed early, but good luck landing a hit on her.

Her superior edgeguarding negates her KO troubles.
 

Killtrox

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I've noticed more and more people are finally putting Olimar up in the high tier. I figured that's where he should've been from the start but I haven't explored him as a character that much. What's he got going for him? I'm curious.
RangeRange, damage over time attacks, recovery, absurdly strong smash attacks, element of surprise.
 

KlefkiHolder

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So these lists have all been talking about Puff pretty highly, but, as a Puff main, I can probably count all the times I've seen Puff talked about in here on one hand.

Anyone here wanna talk about the balloon Pokemon?
 

Spinosaurus

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Sheik has arguably the best neutral in the game, and is devastating at an advantage. She's just far too overwhelming, and WILL get the KO if she finds an opportunity. Hardly overrated.
 

Killtrox

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Sheik can be killed early, but good luck landing a hit on her.

Her superior edgeguarding negates her KO troubles.
It's fairly easy for other aerial-focused cast members, especially if they have high priority like Diddy or Ness, Sonic is hard to read and punish and slowly chips away at Sheik, Rosalinda has stupid range and options and, most importantly, Luma is a complete pain in the ass.

I'm basing this mainly off of following the Sheik players around at Paragon and watching the matchups.
 

Terotrous

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I was going to make another post on the next 10 pages, but it's basically all "Diddy Diddy Diddy" and I don't really think there's anything worthwhile to be said about him. Right now I'm just waiting for the blowup when top 8 at Apex is like 5 Diddys.
 
D

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I was going to make another post on the next 10 pages, but it's basically all "Diddy Diddy Diddy" and I don't really think there's anything worthwhile to be said about him. Right now I'm just waiting for the blowup when top 8 at Apex is like 5 Diddys.
Joke will be on you when it'll be five Swordfighters.
 

Yonder

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So I notice that pacman continues to be slept on...
There are 51 characters in the game, someone is bound to be slept on.

Personally, I think Villager, and maybe Duck Hunt are the most slept on atm. A Shulk properly using Monado Arts is worth noting too.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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Apex is going to be

1st place Ganon
2nd Place Pit
3rd Place Kirby
4th place Ness
5th Place Diddy.
6th place Shulk
7th place Charizard
8th place Luigi

So much salt you'd think we were in the ocean.

No one sleeps on villager. Everyone refuses to talk about him because we dont want more villager players.
 

Antonykun

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Great... More tier list speculation and arguments on how this character is or isn't above/bellow another or how this guy is or isn't top 5 ect.

Well instead Imma gonna talk about the two guys (well technically they can both be girls) by heart now: Villager and Swordfighter.

Villager:There isn't much that Villager can't do with her amazing kit other than kill consistently early and not be clustered. Her offstage game is simply the best because she can go YOLO levels of deep because she has Balloon Trip. This isn't even covering her superb projectile game with Lloyds and Slingshots. She oviously has several weaknesses. There's clear holes in all of Villager's games which is remedied by being unpredictable. She also has it rough against high speed rushdown characters that don't care about her traps. Either way she is really strong and it just seems that everyone overblows her weaknesses.

Swordfighter: I picked them up because they're bad, actually because everyone says they're bad. I soon found out of all the filth Swordfighter can throw to people. Not one but two ways (Reversal Slash and D-air) to gimp makes Swordfighter surprisingly powerful offstage. On top of that SoL and Cape makes for someone who never needs to approach outside of closing stocks. We can't forget about U-air of course, the mix ups and frame-traps are so real with that move :awesome:. Then I realized that Swordfighter has possibly the worst CQC in Smash 4 on top of a subpar recovery and suddenly I realized why they're a punchline around here. I feel as if I go to the lab I can find some more tricks that might help.

on the subject of labbing how do I lab with stuff that is only difficult/possible against a human opponent. I can't practice my D-air Gimps on a CPU that always recovers high or my U-airs aren't difficult when my opponent doesn't DI.

Joke will be on you when it'll be five Swordfighters.
This forum after APEX: Swordfighter is too strong, he has the tools to force you to play his game and his Up Air is overpowered :yeahboi:
 

Antonykun

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You'll all learn the true DThrow -> UAir. Move over Diddy Kong. Swordfighter kills you at 120%
just remember Swordfighter's Diddy impersonation stops being a true combo around 50%. Now D-Throw to U-air mixup for an early kill? :4miisword:
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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/slight tangent

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
I usually just use this frame data chart as a reference when I see or think of something and want to look it up. But now I'm actually looking through it carefully, and it kind of speaks volumes about characters, even though it doesn't include their damage/disjoints/endlag etc.

Kirby for example, since I main him! I already pretty much know his data by heart, but when I look at it more and compare it to other characters, it's like "oh."
First of all, I (and maybe others, I dunno) usually think of him as an airborne character. Bair is often the first thing that comes to mind when they think of the character. It's frame 6, and it does 13 damage! Pretty nice, right? But frame 6 Bair is his fastest aerial. Upair, Nair, and Fair, all of which "feel" pretty quick, are frame 10. Not too bad I guess, right? Obviously his slow Dair is frame 18 and highly situational, but overall his data's pretty good???
Then you look at other characters' aerials, and you see fellows like Pikachu (3/10/4/4/14). That's 3 moves that are faster than Kirby's fastest aerial. And they probably have disjoints somewhere, unlike any of Kirby's aerials. Sheik (3/5/4/4/15). Aaaand that's 4 aerials faster than my fastest. Some of which have disjoints (I'm assuming Fair does anyway). Diddy Kong (8/6/5/3/17). Ok, Diddy's Fair (you know the MASSIVE range aerial) has the same frame data as my fastest. His Bair is faster, and of course Upair is frame 3 and has an insane hitbox. I sure won't be winning in the air! etc.
But hey, most of Kirby's aerials have low landing lag, right? (Namely Upair, Bair, and Nair, since for some depressing reason, Fair does not autocancel out of a shorthop.) Well... sort of. The landing lag is "low" yet it's enough that people can just run up and punish you if their timing is decent. A perfectly spaced Bair is probably the only safe aerial on shield, and even that's unsafe against certain characters. If his air mobility was better it might be a different story, but it's not. Even aerials that completely whiff can often be punished despite their "low" endlag.

But then Kirby's ground data: frame 6 grab, tied for the fastest in the game, frame 3 jab, which is quite good, and I believe can be double jab canceled into grabs or other moves (I have to test more and see if this is actually a real combo or if it's more of a mixup against people who shield because they expect jab finishers) and frame 5 ftilt, frame 4 uptilt that leads to combos, and frame 4 dtilt that leads to combos are very good. Uptilt also has (slight) intangibility on his foot, and his grounded moves have the capability of clashing, which is a good thing because he can actually clank with swords/disjoints, whereas in the air he would straight up lose. So if I find ways to work on his ground game, and only use aerials as followups for true combos/traps/gimps, instead of hoping people run into my aerials and let me combo them, I might be able to take him farther than I have been.


tl;dr I'm trying to "lab it up" and I think starting with frame data is a very good reference point for whatever character you're using.
Yeah Kirby air attacks are a little on the slow side things could be worse you could have Shulk's frame data.....I like using the frame data to learn about what a character is all about as well it can be really helpful
 

Kofu

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The reach and disjoint is nice, but the fact that jab3 does not truly combo from jab2 is pretty quality game design. Seriously play against a good sheik and they'll jab you before your multijab part comes out every time. If that wasn't bad enough, it's one of the easiest multijabs to DI out of, I do it in kirby dittos all the time, it's comparable to like, bowser jr, robin, diddy, pit, and spacies. (These things really need fixes, good justifications for a balance patch! Nobody should lose their stock for landing a jab, having it DI'd out, and punished because of massive endlag, I say this even though kirby is good at doing this very thing)

Also, the hitbox matches the animation, and reality... seriously? :p have you seen the insane reach on vulcan jab in kirby games? Even smash4's buffed version is nothing compared to return to dreamland.

About recoveries... I feel that few of the good characters have truly exploitable recoveries. Watch izaw vs haze and see how badly falcon's recovery screws him. Watch ness try to recover with upB and see how often that kills him. Watch diddy kong... please tell me, how often does he die for getting knocked offstage? I haven't watched the big tournies from this weekend yet, how many times did it happen? I'm guessing not many. Even the famous will vs m2k example only happened because diddy used upb instantly instead of jumping and airdodging first. After that surprise I'm sure he learned his lesson and never did that again.

I'd like to se more of that ledge snap vulnerability though, has it been seen in tournaments at all?
Hadn't thought about that tbh, but thinking about it Kirby has some noticeable delay there, huh? Bowser Jr and Diddy have it worse though IMO.

Ask Ganon mains about ledge snap vulnerability/trumping mechanics, they seem to know what's going on.
 

Trifroze

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Falcon's recovery is definitely his biggest weakness. I'd compare him to Luigi and Ness; he recovers well enough if he has his second jump left, but once he loses his second jump and gets knocked offstage he's done unless the opponent makes a mistake or has poor edgeguarding tools. Luigi and Ness have better recoveries with second jump left though, while they're more likely to die if they lose it. However Falcon similarly destroys many characters offstage with his edgeguarding, mainly dair. Exceptions are characters with top level recoveries that have massive range or invincibility. Falcon would probably be top 5 if he had a recovery similar to Sheik, or even if Raptor Boost didn't send him into a freefall.
 

Road Death Wheel

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZIa8ZfSlc

mind is boggled as to why people don't think this is important. in a custom moves meta.

this is top class mobility. and hes not even using the tech to its best abillity or showcasing combo's, or chases, even recovery.

well at least for dash slash.
i feel dash grab is less usefull even though its still much better than than the original.
bowser just gets legit kill set ups with this move.
 

Emblem Lord

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Seeing everyone put Marth in bottom tier makes me want to play you guys with him, if only because I feel everyone only changed their tune because of Shaya.

That said I suppose he has that effect not only with Marth but any char he talks about.

Also lol@people talking about ZSS. "She's ONLY 4th AT BEST!!!"

rofl. you people slay me.

But seriously somebody fight me I'm bored.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Seeing everyone put Marth in bottom tier makes me want to play you guys with him, if only because I feel everyone only changed their tune because of Shaya.

That said I suppose he has that effect not only with Marth but any char he talks about.

Also lol@people talking about ZSS. "She's ONLY 4th AT BEST!!!"

rofl. you people slay me.

But seriously somebody fight me I'm bored.
i still think marth is a very effective character and would still place him solid high mid.
aslo sure ill have a go i guess. pm me
 
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Asdioh

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on the subject of labbing how do I lab with stuff that is only difficult/possible against a human opponent. I can't practice my D-air Gimps on a CPU that always recovers high or my U-airs aren't difficult when my opponent doesn't DI.
To make the CPU recover low, you can
1. knock them off the stage
2. press Pause before they jump
3. unpause before they reach the blastzone
Then they're forced to recover high :bee: it's actually pretty handy, as long as you're not testing something that requires you to have more time than that to set up (since you can't move your character while it's paused)
 

Antonykun

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Seeing everyone put Marth in bottom tier makes me want to play you guys with him, if only because I feel everyone only changed their tune because of Shaya.

That said I suppose he has that effect not only with Marth but any char he talks about.

Also lol@people talking about ZSS. "She's ONLY 4th AT BEST!!!"

rofl. you people slay me.

But seriously somebody fight me I'm bored.
I would love to face off against a good Marth
 

Emblem Lord

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We should have like...a group where all the smash strategist/theorist play each other. Sounds hot and amazing.

On topic:"Minna, miteite kure!"
 

NairWizard

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I'd like to make a case for ZSS. Initially, I thought that she was being overrated because of her tether grab and hitboxes that pass over the heads of short characters. It wasn't until I took a second look and logged some playtime into her that I realized that these weaknesses aren't as big as they look.

1) Her grab is better mechanically than other tether grabs because it catches some rolls and spotdodges, which makes punishing it a little more difficult since if she uses it in the right situations some of her opponent's defensive options are locked out. It has enough range that it's difficult to just beat with a jab. In the corner against ZSS, it's often down to using an aerial to avoid a grab; instinctive rolls, spotdodges, and shields will be caught. Pushing her opponent into the corner using her mobility is something that ZSS excels at, and getting grabs in that situation (or punishing an opponent for committing to an aerial to beat her grab) is not difficult.

Tether grabs are generally bad because the risk:reward ratio for trying to grab is bad. Hit, and you gain positional advantage. Miss, and you eat an f-smash or f-air. But ZSS' reward off a grab is good because of her aerial mobility: her pummel isn't slow, her throw damage is decent (7% d-throw I believe), and she can follow up with up-airs (7-8%) and up-b (KOs). So the risk:reward ratio is not so bad for her: her opponent stands to lose as much by shielding against her at midrange as she has to by throwing out her grab.

Overall, her grab is comparable to Diddy's recovery: it's a weakness in the sense that it's an average move on a character with above-average tools, and other characters with above-average tools can sometimes exploit that mediocrity, but even though it's an average move it does have some unique advantages (above-average reward and catching defensive options, in the case of ZSS' grab).

2) The obvious solution to short characters is good spacing so that ZSS can hit with jabs and n-airs (having a disjointed n-air that hits on both sides of ZSS' body and a jab that comes out on frame 1 makes it possible to contest small, fast characters), but an even better solution is perfect pivot, which helps ZSS with her long legs more than it helps most characters. Against Pikachu I like to use perfect pivot f-tilt. Angled up, this will catch Pikachu out of his f-air. Angled down, it will catch Pikachu out of his grab or up-tilt (blocking the tjolt too). D-tilt is slower than f-tilt but perfect pivot into d-tilt will hit Pikachu out of his own d-tilt. If I'm too close to Pikachu I will use perfect pivot jab. The perfect pivot here puts ZSS into optimal spacing to hit most short characters, though the timing is tight. I like to use perfect pivot up-tilt as an approach against short characters because of the way up-tilt starts up.

She received buffs from Brawl, but they aren't moveset improvements: they are engine/mechanics changes, and changes to other characters:
  • Her recovery is much better now that her opponents can't just grab the ledge and send her to her death. Pikachu and Meta Knight could dominate ZSS offstage in Brawl, but that's no longer the case in Smash 4: between an unhoggable tether, a scarier up-b, and her flip kick, she's difficult to gimp or even edgeguard.
  • Her air speed relative to the cast has become even better.
  • Shielding is more of a commitment, so shields aren't as big of a deal against her any more.

She's one of the few characters who are good in disadvantage in this game: flip, b-reverses, landing up-airs, jump -> d-air, and her mobility get her out of bad situations about as well as Sheik's or Pikachu's tools. In advantage, she's also great due to combos like n-air to f-air and endless frame traps enabled by her airspeed.

In neutral, she needs to space well with up-airs and n-airs, time her d-smash and paralyzer pressure, and use all the options in her kit, including perfect pivoting, to stand up to other top-tier neutrals. To her credit, she's one of the better users of initial-dashing to weave in and out, an effective strategy that gains ground with each passing tournament.

I also think that she improves notably with customs. Whip Lash is good for stringing hits together. up-b 3 (the power version) packs more kill power and is more difficult to DI out of (but also more difficult to aim); generally, the better recovery from her other up-bs is not needed, because her tether and flip will get her back to the stage anyway, so I almost always pick this one. Shooting star flip kick provides her a safe way to land and, since down-b is not safe on shield anyway, is more reliable for what she actually wants to use down-b for: getting out of bad situations. Nothing is worth using over paralyzer, but 3 good options give her more than the likes of Diddy or Yoshi receive. Sonic (Hammer Spin Dash), Pikachu (Heavy Skull Bash), and arguably Sheik (Gravity Grenade) get more benefit than she does out of customs, though.

If I were to make a tier list, I would put the most consistent characters (that is, characters with the fewest bad matchups) at the top. It would look like this at the upper end:

Tier 1: :4sheik::4pikachu: these characters have no bad matchups, and are most consistent for tournaments. They have tools for every situation.
Tier 2: :4diddy::4zss: these characters have a few bad matchups, but have very dominant options against most of the cast. They may need to play around certain holes in their otherwise great toolkits (Diddy's recovery, ZSS' grab).
Tier 3: [3 or 4 characters here] these characters have multiple bad matchups or bad matchups with top tiers, but have strong options against most of the cast.

and so on. I'll refrain from making the entire thing because I don't want to start a discussion about why this character is here or that character is there.

I'll note that tier gaps in this inchoate list don't indicate a significant performance difference between characters. There have been arguments made in this topic that there should only be 3 tiers in this game because character differences "aren't that big." I disagree, because I think tier gaps should consist of whatever is most helpful in presenting useful information. Here, I would break tiers up by number of bad matchups rather than by performance gaps, which may be small in practice. In a series of tournaments, Diddys may place as well as or better than Sheiks at top level, simply because the Diddy may not run into his bad matchups or they may not be disadvantageous by enough of a margin for someone like Zero to care (or, perhaps, those bad matchups aren't being played by other Zero-level players).

The schema is: [0 bad matchups "is a tier better than" 3-4 bad matchups "is a tier better than" 5-6 bad matchups "is a tier better than"....]. There is some weighting for where these bad matchups land, too (having bad matchups against Top Tiers is bad, because players are more likely to pick those characters up), but not too much.
 
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mimgrim

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Averaging these three lists because I like them: (Forgive the arbitrary labels--also no Miis due to incomplete data)
Agreed Top Tier::4diddy::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4zss:
Shaya's other Top Tier::4pikachu::4fox::4falcon::4ness:
Agreed High Tier::4darkpit:/:4pit::4peach::4jigglypuff::4luigi::4yoshi::4olimar::4wario:
Two High Votes Tier: :4lucario::4mario:
One High Vote Tier::4robinm::4rob::4megaman::4tlink:
Conda Overrates People tier::4gaw::4pacman:
Agreed Upon Mid Tier::4dk::4greninja::4duckhunt::4myfriends::4link::4villager:
Two Mid Votes Tier::4bowser::4charizard::4shulk::4metaknight::4bowserjr::4wiifit:
One Mid Vote Tier::4samus::4dedede::4falco::4ganondorf::4marth::4kirby::4littlemac::4palutena:
Agreed Lower Tier::4zelda::4lucina::4drmario:


My List: (1v1, no customs, ordered within each level)
:4sheik::4diddy::4zss::4sonic:
:4pikachu::rosalina::4ness::4fox::4falcon::4yoshi::4lucario:
:4mario::4peach::4luigi::4pit::4darkpit::4wario::4jigglypuff::4olimar::4villager:
:4dk::4robinm::4greninja::4megaman::4pacman::4rob::4tlink::4shulk::4charizard:
:4metaknight::4myfriends::4bowserjr::4ganondorf::4bowser::4link::4wiifit::4kirby::4gaw:
:4palutena::4samus::4duckhunt::4falco::4littlemac::4dedede:
:4marth::4drmario::4lucina::4zelda:

My List: (1v1, customs, ordered within each level--each level relative to the above)
:4sheik::4diddy::4sonic::4zss::4pikachu::4lucario::rosalina:
:4fox::4ness::4falcon::4palutena::4yoshi::4miibrawl::4villager::4dk::4luigi::4mario:
:4peach::4olimar::4robinm::4greninja::4ganondorf::4pit::4darkpit::4myfriends::4bowserjr::4wario::4shulk::4charizard::4megaman::4bowser::4jigglypuff::4duckhunt:
:4tlink::4wiifit::4rob::4pacman::4gaw::4metaknight::4samus::4link:
:4kirby::4falco::4miigun::4littlemac:
:4drmario::4dedede::4marth::4lucina:
:4zelda::4miisword:

Looking back, biggest winners who moved up at least 2 levels in viability are Palutena (39 -> 11), DK (20 -> 14), Ganon (32 -> 21), Ike (30 -> 24), Bowser Jr. (31 -> 25), DHD (40 -> 32), and Samus (39 -> 39). WFT also probably counts as a big winner (35 -> 34).
Why is Gunner that low when they are allowed their own set-up. Short Fat Gunner with a Neutral 3 and Down 2 becomes a mobile zoner/trapper who can just keep throwing out the bombs until you die, ass in Stealth Burst and he gains another killing projectile that serves as an effective trap. And don't get me started on Fair. At lower percents you can combo from his projectile game and at higher percents the opponent has to start fearing getting killed by them. It's pretty insane for a zoner/trapper with these kinds of tools to get such good mobility from these tools. And even with all that he still isn't completely useless at close range because he has solid close range tools that serve getting the opponent out of his space.

Granted this is most theory crafting and labbing as my region is currently no customs and 1111 average Miis. :L
 

A2ZOMG

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I'd like to make a case for ZSS. Initially, I thought that she was being overrated because of her tether grab and hitboxes that pass over the heads of short characters. It wasn't until I took a second look and logged some playtime into her that I realized that these weaknesses aren't as big as they look.

1) Her grab is better mechanically than other tether grabs because it catches some rolls and spotdodges, which makes punishing it a little more difficult since if she uses it in the right situations some of her opponent's defensive options are locked out. It has enough range that it's difficult to just beat with a jab. In the corner against ZSS, it's often down to using an aerial to avoid a grab; instinctive rolls, spotdodges, and shields will be caught. Pushing her opponent into the corner using her mobility is something that ZSS excels at, and getting grabs in that situation (or punishing an opponent for committing to an aerial to beat her grab) is not difficult.

Tether grabs are generally bad because the risk:reward ratio for trying to grab is bad. Hit, and you gain positional advantage. Miss, and you eat an f-smash or f-air. But ZSS' reward off a grab is good because of her aerial mobility: her pummel isn't slow, her throw damage is decent (7% d-throw I believe), and she can follow up with up-airs (7-8%) and up-b (KOs). So the risk:reward ratio is not so bad for her: her opponent stands to lose as much by shielding against her at midrange as she has to by throwing out her grab.

Overall, her grab is comparable to Diddy's recovery: it's a weakness in the sense that it's an average move on a character with above-average tools, and other characters with above-average tools can sometimes exploit that mediocrity, but even though it's an average move it does have some unique advantages (above-average reward and catching defensive options, in the case of ZSS' grab).

2) The obvious solution to short characters is good spacing so that ZSS can hit with jabs and n-airs (having a disjointed n-air that hits on both sides of ZSS' body and a jab that comes out on frame 1 makes it possible to contest small, fast characters), but an even better solution is perfect pivot, which helps ZSS with her long legs more than it helps most characters. Against Pikachu I like to use perfect pivot f-tilt. Angled up, this will catch Pikachu out of his f-air. Angled down, it will catch Pikachu out of his grab or up-tilt (blocking the tjolt too). D-tilt is slower than f-tilt but perfect pivot into d-tilt will hit Pikachu out of his own d-tilt. If I'm too close to Pikachu I will use perfect pivot jab. The perfect pivot here puts ZSS into optimal spacing to hit most short characters, though the timing is tight. I like to use perfect pivot up-tilt as an approach against short characters because of the way up-tilt starts up.

She received buffs from Brawl, but they aren't moveset improvements: they are engine/mechanics changes, and changes to other characters:
  • Her recovery is much better now that her opponents can't just grab the ledge and send her to her death. Pikachu and Meta Knight could dominate ZSS offstage in Brawl, but that's no longer the case in Smash 4: between an unhoggable tether, a scarier up-b, and her flip kick, she's difficult to gimp or even edgeguard.
  • Her air speed relative to the cast has become even better.
  • Shielding is more of a commitment, so shields aren't as big of a deal against her any more.

She's one of the few characters who are good in disadvantage in this game: flip, b-reverses, landing up-airs, jump -> d-air, and her mobility get her out of bad situations about as well as Sheik's or Pikachu's tools. In advantage, she's also great due to combos like n-air to f-air and endless frame traps enabled by her airspeed.

In neutral, she needs to space well with up-airs and n-airs, time her d-smash and paralyzer pressure, and use all the options in her kit, including perfect pivoting, to stand up to other top-tier neutrals. To her credit, she's one of the better users of initial-dashing to weave in and out, an effective strategy that gains ground with each passing tournament.

I also think that she improves notably with customs. Whip Lash is good for stringing hits together. up-b 3 (the power version) packs more kill power and is more difficult to DI out of (but also more difficult to aim); generally, the better recovery from her other up-bs is not needed, because her tether and flip will get her back to the stage anyway, so I almost always pick this one. Shooting star flip kick provides her a safe way to land and, since down-b is not safe on shield anyway, is more reliable for what she actually wants to use down-b for: getting out of bad situations. Nothing is worth using over paralyzer, but 3 good options give her more than the likes of Diddy or Yoshi receive. Sonic (Hammer Spin Dash), Pikachu (Heavy Skull Bash), and arguably Sheik (Gravity Grenade) get more benefit than she does out of customs, though.

If I were to make a tier list, I would put the most consistent characters (that is, characters with the fewest bad matchups) at the top. It would look like this at the upper end:

Tier 1: :4sheik::4pikachu: these characters have no bad matchups, and are most consistent for tournaments. They have tools for every situation.
Tier 2: :4diddy::4zss: these characters have a few bad matchups, but have very dominant options against most of the cast. They may need to play around certain holes in their otherwise great toolkits (Diddy's recovery, ZSS' grab).
Tier 3: [3 or 4 characters here] these characters have multiple bad matchups or bad matchups with top tiers, but have strong options against most of the cast.

and so on. I'll refrain from making the entire thing because I don't want to start a discussion about why this character is here or that character is there.

I'll note that tier gaps in this inchoate list don't indicate a significant performance difference between characters. There have been arguments made in this topic that there should only be 3 tiers in this game because character differences "aren't that big." I disagree, because I think tier gaps should consist of whatever is most helpful in presenting useful information. Here, I would break tiers up by number of bad matchups rather than by performance gaps, which may be small in practice. In a series of tournaments, Diddys may place as well as or better than Sheiks at top level, simply because the Diddy may not run into his bad matchups or they may not be disadvantageous by enough of a margin for someone like Zero to care (or, perhaps, those bad matchups aren't being played by other Zero-level players).

The schema is: [0 bad matchups "is a tier better than" 3-4 bad matchups "is a tier better than" 5-6 bad matchups "is a tier better than"....]. There is some weighting for where these bad matchups land, too (having bad matchups against Top Tiers is bad, because players are more likely to pick those characters up), but not too much.
I just wanted to say, nobody seems to realize that one of the the biggest buffs to Ganondorf and tether grabs is the nerf to spotdodge (more startup before invincibility). This nerf is VERY noticeable when you try to grab someone in neutral with them. Less big of a deal for other characters where you usually are buffering spotdodge as a read to avoid pressure, but the universal nerfs to spotdodge means it is much harder to reactively spotdodge even slower grabs in this game.

Now if only Link's throws were as good as ZSS's...
 
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Vengeance_NS

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That's how I feel. Yeah tether grabs are bad but are they bad enough from keeping a character top 10. I don't think they are. Yoshi might have a bad grab but look at the rest of his toolset. He has strong buttons and having a bad grab to me doesn't mean he's not top 10. It's about knowing when to use the grab and what you have conditioned ur opponent to do on ur approaches. This is why I still think yoshi is top 10 plus besides he doesnt out right lose to that many characters.
 

Terotrous

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I actually think Yoshi's tether grab is pretty decent (it's certainly the best tether grab), but his throws are quite poor.
 

Vengeance_NS

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I actually think Yoshi's tether grab is pretty decent (it's certainly the best tether grab), but his throws are quite poor.
Yeah he doesn't get much off throws in general but you have to look at how strong the rest of his kit is. If he had guaranteed combos off dthrow the character would be too good. As it is now he's top 10 maybe better once more players and better players pick him up for tourneys.
 

ChronoPenguin

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If Sheik is the best character in the game. Im not worried about anything.

Inb4 Sheik is bottom but no. I rather face Sheik then Diddy, as well as Sheik then Sonic.
Actually the two characters in the 'upper ring' that I'd prefer the most is Lucario and Sheik.
 
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Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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/slight tangent

http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU
I usually just use this frame data chart as a reference when I see or think of something and want to look it up. But now I'm actually looking through it carefully, and it kind of speaks volumes about characters, even though it doesn't include their damage/disjoints/endlag etc.

Kirby for example, since I main him! I already pretty much know his data by heart, but when I look at it more and compare it to other characters, it's like "oh."
First of all, I (and maybe others, I dunno) usually think of him as an airborne character. Bair is often the first thing that comes to mind when they think of the character. It's frame 6, and it does 13 damage! Pretty nice, right? But frame 6 Bair is his fastest aerial. Upair, Nair, and Fair, all of which "feel" pretty quick, are frame 10. Not too bad I guess, right? Obviously his slow Dair is frame 18 and highly situational, but overall his data's pretty good???
Then you look at other characters' aerials, and you see fellows like Pikachu (3/10/4/4/14). That's 3 moves that are faster than Kirby's fastest aerial. And they probably have disjoints somewhere, unlike any of Kirby's aerials. Sheik (3/5/4/4/15). Aaaand that's 4 aerials faster than my fastest. Some of which have disjoints (I'm assuming Fair does anyway). Diddy Kong (8/6/5/3/17). Ok, Diddy's Fair (you know the MASSIVE range aerial) has the same frame data as my fastest. His Bair is faster, and of course Upair is frame 3 and has an insane hitbox. I sure won't be winning in the air! etc.
But hey, most of Kirby's aerials have low landing lag, right? (Namely Upair, Bair, and Nair, since for some depressing reason, Fair does not autocancel out of a shorthop.) Well... sort of. The landing lag is "low" yet it's enough that people can just run up and punish you if their timing is decent. A perfectly spaced Bair is probably the only safe aerial on shield, and even that's unsafe against certain characters. If his air mobility was better it might be a different story, but it's not. Even aerials that completely whiff can often be punished despite their "low" endlag.

But then Kirby's ground data: frame 6 grab, tied for the fastest in the game, frame 3 jab, which is quite good, and I believe can be double jab canceled into grabs or other moves (I have to test more and see if this is actually a real combo or if it's more of a mixup against people who shield because they expect jab finishers) and frame 5 ftilt, frame 4 uptilt that leads to combos, and frame 4 dtilt that leads to combos are very good. Uptilt also has (slight) intangibility on his foot, and his grounded moves have the capability of clashing, which is a good thing because he can actually clank with swords/disjoints, whereas in the air he would straight up lose. So if I find ways to work on his ground game, and only use aerials as followups for true combos/traps/gimps, instead of hoping people run into my aerials and let me combo them, I might be able to take him farther than I have been.


tl;dr I'm trying to "lab it up" and I think starting with frame data is a very good reference point for whatever character you're using.
Here we go guys. This is how it's done.
 

Asdioh

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Here we go guys. This is how it's done.
Did you know Kirby can SHFF* Bairs and still get the autocancel, with correct timing? I've been practicing it! No more throwing out random Nairs/Fairs in neutral and hoping they run into it for me. I just have to practice more so I don't actually input Fsmash in between jumps.

*LJFF (Low Jump Fast Fall) for that one guy, I like that term better but I daresay it's too late to change it

Also fun fact, I tested Kirby's crouch to make sure it's Frame 1, and it is. I assume everybody's crouch is like that, but yeah. Tested on ZSS/Mac Jabs in 1/4 speed L to advance Training Mode. Easily ducks under ZSS jab, and Mac's jab will show the spark "phantom hit" on him every time.
Did you know Diddy can also SHFF Fairs and get the autocancel, except it's much easier to perform and much more dangerous? Why do I play Kirby, again?


Anyway while we're on the subject of frame-data-type-stuff, how does clashing work in this game? I suppose it's something I can test in training mode, and probably will. But I've never seen a definitive answer, and this seems as good a place as any to ask.
What I mean is: when two grounded attacks clash with each other, both users incur a brief "stun" afterwards. I'm assuming that whoever used the stronger attack suffers less "stun," but I've never confirmed for sure.
Also sometimes attacks clearly clash with Mac's Ftilt, but he keeps on Ftilting as if nothing happened, I don't know what the deal is with that.
 
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