Character Competitive Impressions

[NachoOfCheese]

Lucario can really turn a match around with Aura + Rage. He'd be a laughing stock without those tbh.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I think he'd still be pretty good without Rage.

 

[David Viran]

what exactly makes lucario's neutral bad? he has good projectile pressure and nair/fair are good. i will agree entirely that he just dies to early kill options.

He's on the slower side and lacks range. A good projectile is not enough to win and characters with reflectors hurt him.

 

[Nu~]

I'll burn in hell before Lucario is Top 3 without customs.

Any kind of hell. Burning hell, frozen hell, Hell full of crusty socks idgaf.

Sees Pac-Man right above Zelda in bottom tier
"I See no potential in him"
Yeah...
I'll join you.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Time out who cares about Pacman. Wherever he goes is whatever at this point.
Im not trying to put AA on the spot, but Lucario? Home boy please.
I rather Shulk be put in bottom of the bottom tier. Z tier then Lucario in top 3.

His normals are completely overstated. He trades terribly, given his character doesn't even come alive until he enters KO % from heavy hitters and doesn't get silly until he's in everyones KO option (if they're willing to actually go for the kill).
His saving grace is that no one closes stocks and he has good flow on aerials.

 

[GSM_Dren]

I'm interested in what people here think about Mega Man.

He's tough to handle, but Zucco has shown real skill in zoning with all the tools that Megs has in his arsenal.

I'd like to say he easily places in upper mid tier, if not high tier. Megaman has a lot of options to zone out opponents (lemons, buzz saw, crash bomb, etc.) which means he can approach on his own terms. Especially with Zucco's playstyle, good luck getting in. His Uair is phenomenal at getting early kills and has decent anti-air options with Utilt and Usmash. Fair has an alright range and Bair gives him another solid kill move. His recovery may not be the best, but being able to jump after it helps to get him back on the stage low or high.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Lucina just feels kind of mediocre all around. She's not really terrible in any one aspect but feels a bit below average in just about every area except for disjoints, mostly in the air since FSmash's range was nerfed into the ground. She does have enough tools to give her a chance in almost any situation, but she doesn't feel intimidating in any way unless your character has bad range or is reliant on aerial approaches.

 

[Luco]

@TriTails there is no way an opponent could airdodge through a rapid jab and punish you for it as there is significant landing lag after an airdodge during which you would presumably jab them again. Not sure what Mario/Luigi's jumpsquat is but that's at least a few frames + frame 3 nair which is slower than a lot of upB OoS options, not sure about ZSS jab.

@ Luco all upB's OoS are done by jumping, you cancel the jumpsquat into the special so you don't have to wait for the shield drop. I do not believe you actually leave the ground.

@Nobie I believe Bowser loses his "super armour" (tough guy?) when he reaches 30 or 40%, correct me if I'm wrong. PK Fire isn't useful until he's at about that percentage anyway.

@MaskO'Gears yes.

Also on the topic of rapid jabs - most of them aren't true combos. With no melee-esque crouch cancelling and the fastest nairs being frame 3 this isn't something that can be completely capitalised upon but Jiggs can rest a lot of characters during their jab transition.

At this point in the game I can potentially see ZSS (and Rosalina?) in their own tier(s) between Yoshi/Ness/High tier and Diddy/Sheik/Top tier as I think that it's likely that with their matchups combined they would have an advantage against every single character below them. Right now I think it's very clear that the metagame for these characters along with Sonic and Pikachu aren't as developed as that for Diddy and while I think they will likely rise up any future tier lists (hence me putting them in top originally) they aren't quite there yet.

No order within tiers, except Diddy = first and Sheik = second. The reason I started with S tier (which is disliked and rightfully so) is that I think most characters in this game fall into the same 2 tiers and calling that tier D or E discredits their ability, the vast majority of characters in this game should fall into B tier. no hyrule tier pls


S:
A:
B+:
B:
C: almost everyone else (we will likely have a distinction between C+ and C-)
D: truly unviable characters (are there any???)


I expect Ness to drop a tier (or have a significant number of characters join B), Rosalina to drop and then rise later on, Diddy to drop (from 1st to 2nd/3rd/4th, definitely top tier and will likely be joined by more characters). I don't quite think ZSS will break S tier and therefore may drop to 4th/5th/6th/7th over time but I don't see ZSS being below A or B+ as I think there is a definite gap between ZSS tier and the unwashed (yet viable) masses, which is as I've stated many times the vast majority of the cast. If you missed that, I do not believe ZSS is or ever will be in the same tier as Ness. Sorry Luco.

also tether grabs OP volvo pls nerf

lol it's fine. We've interpreted the info different ways and that's okay. I also don't really seem to have taken to popular opinion on this one, so it's something I'll harbour quietly to the side anyway.

I was gonna tell you to go to bed though.... but then my computer's internet died so I took the hint and went to bed myself. :3

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Baby you know my 3DS code. I'll Kirby you.

Is that what they're calling it these days?

They probably don't want to deal with 2122 Brawler killing people at 60ish % with a SHFF FAir into Helicopter Kick

And yet people still complain that it takes ages to kill anyone. It's really kind of weird.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Is that what they're calling it these days?

Gotta be hip.

And yet people still complain that it takes ages to kill anyone. It's really kind of weird.

And then Meta knight gets a Dash attack triple U-airs into shuttle loop and they die anyways?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well if everyone killed like that I think it'd be less of an issue. lol

 

[san.]

Well see, I have minimum height and max weight. The max weight isn't so much for the extra kill power or survivability as it is for the extra range which is actually a noticeable difference from a skinny Mii when the Mii is at the shortest height possible. I want my little zoner/trapper to be as hard to hit as possible while still having good range (which short/fat does) and be able to do double FH Fair so short/fat is the best combination for what I want out of Gunner. I've messed around with other wiehgt/height combinations and they just weren't what I were looking for.

While weight changes how large your reach looks, your actual reach doesn't actually increase. Only height increases your reach.

Height: Moderate reach increase, very small damage increase, mobility decrease
Weight: Small survivability increase, small damage increase, mobility decrease

An easy way to test is to create a tall + skinny swordfighter and look at the reach on forward smash.

I messed around with Missile and really couldn't see myself using it that much when I have the two bombs. Stealth Burst, while laggy and punishable if you use it incorrectly, gives the threat of a another killing projectile and serves as a pretty good trap I think.

Perhaps, it just seems too difficult for me against an actual opponent. With Missile, I can at least keep the front somewhat safe from a sudden dash approach since I can combo off of it if it hits, it deals sufficient shield damage, and it gives me a (laggy) homing option that I can follow when used from a distance. Super missile isn't much laggier than grenade or bomb drop.

While I'm charging stealth burst, that's more time where I'm not launching another projectile to cover myself, though it's great as an anti-camp, anti-reflector, and teams option.

I also have no problems killing with the non-projectile attacks. Utilt, Dsmash, Usmash, Fair offstage, Uair off the top, and Fsmash are all common. Dtilt and offstage bair aren't that bad either though they are a little tougher to land for being somewhat weak.

I actually don't think switching from Down 2 is all that important or good due to how laggy the reflector and absorber are, I could see them maybe having a use against chargable projectiles like Charge Shot or Aura Sphere but not much else and I think I would still rather just stick to the bomb.

They're laggy when used in the air, but on the ground, you can immediately roll or jump after a reflection/absorb, making it much safer. landing fair->downB and the transcendent projectile hits the opponent while you reflect/absorb whatever is being thrown at you, then jump immediately afterwards. Bomb is still great enough to use against some projectile-based characters, though I'd rather have reflector against the likes of Mega Man for instance. There's not many situations where you'll be baited for using it that easily since you're rarely forced to use it unlike Fox.

If I can't create the Mii to play like I want it to then the reason for me to use the character goes out the window. You either limit them and ruin the character, which is what is currently being done, or you let them flourish and let them be relevant. There is no middle road, at least I won't accept a middle road. Also this so called "advantage" bullcrap is so very very minor and the only thing you have to account for is how you can combo the character but the general play-style stays the same.



Personally think Gunner is probably better. But that is mostly theory still so I won't go into it much. All I can do with Gunner currently is lab out my preferred set-up and wait for the day when they aren't limited.

Agreed. The default interface is the simplest method we have with "Customs off." Miis can actually be created in a minute (I have created over 15 to test different builds) then another 2 minutes to boot up the game and create the fighter, but to my knowledge Mii Maker requires the gamepad. Transferring is also another viable option, so no one is really excluded in this case outside of the annoyance caused from the gamepad.

 

[Kofu]

I'm assuming when people compare the fast customs of various characters' projectiles (Fast Fireball/Capsule, Short-Order Chef, Shooting Star Bit) to Falco's laser they're referring to the previous incarnations of it, because I thought the general consensus was that Falco's laser sucks now.

I could be wrong but I find it funny that people are lauding these customs but degrading the original.

 

[Lavani]

Missed this:

@TriTails there is no way an opponent could airdodge through a rapid jab and punish you for it as there is significant landing lag after an airdodge during which you would presumably jab them again. Not sure what Mario/Luigi's jumpsquat is but that's at least a few frames + frame 3 nair which is slower than a lot of upB OoS options, not sure about ZSS jab.

@Nobie I believe Bowser loses his "super armour" (tough guy?) when he reaches 30 or 40%, correct me if I'm wrong. PK Fire isn't useful until he's at about that percentage anyway.

Mario's jumpsquat looks to be 5f, I assume Luigi's is the same. So it would tie with ZSS shielddrop jab.

Tough Guy is related to the hitstun caused by the attack rather than being a strict percent-based thing. Mega Man's lemons don't stun Bowser until somewhere around 370%, for example.

 

[Charls]

As presumptuous as it may sound, it is quite possible that Marth's/Lucina's metagame may not have much elsewhere to go. It's not that there is a lack of innovation (I believe people playing Marth a year or two from now will look different in some aspects, at the very least), but rather, Marth doesn't share the same depth other characters have. His options are limited to the point where any progression in his gameplay will likely come from implementing matchup knowledge and/or any engine techniques we find along the way. "Stale" might be the word I'm looking for. He is by design what should be a big threat in the hands of someone with great fundamentals, but is held back from this against the upper echelon of the cast because of outright sad numbers.

Also, seems like we're finally on Luke now. Losing his disjoints... really hurt. As a result of this he can't really space like he used to and feels very, very different to his Brawl counterpart as a whole. He really could have benefited from those with how pathetic his damage output is now pre-aura/rage. And really that is all that's keeping him high - aura. Aura + rage is ridiculously strong as we've already seen, and makes up for Luke's slow early game with wacky low % kills. Besides that he appears underwhelming though, and having very little people represent the character (Junebug comes to mind) isn't helping either.

 

[mimgrim]

While weight changes how large your reach looks, your actual reach doesn't actually increase. Only height increases your reach.

Height: Moderate reach increase, very small damage increase, mobility decrease
Weight: Small survivability increase, small damage increase, mobility decrease

An easy way to test is to create a tall + skinny swordfighter and look at the reach on forward smash.

I'd need to this in action side-by-side because I swear when I had a short/skinny Swordfighter the sword was a toothpick and didn't seem to reach as far the sword for short/fat Mii. Same with Gunner, Fsmash not only looks shorter but doesn't seem to hit as far as short/fat Fmsash gunner. I need visual confirmation and I don't really have the means to test it out myself. Because if that is truly the case I might have to look into it. Is there a video showcasing this at all, preferably with the Short Miis where I think it has the biggest impact?

I also have no problems killing with the non-projectile attacks. Utilt, Dsmash, Usmash, Fair offstage, Uair off the top, and Fsmash are all common. Dtilt and offstage bair aren't that bad either though they are a little tougher to land for being somewhat weak.

It's not that Gunner lacks killing power without projectiles it's that he can just keep playing a keep away game and zoning you out with his projectiles until he just flat out kills you with them which creates a huge thread, similar to Samus in Melee and Project M which have kill capability but Gunner has more and is more versatile with his various projectiles that can kill. It's more about the threat they create and how he doesn't have to get in to kill and can instead just keep zoning you out and stay out of the opponents range while still being able to kill. But if the opponent gets in on him he definitely has the means to get them out of his space and they will kill as well.

They're laggy when used in the air, but on the ground, you can immediately roll or jump after a reflection/absorb, making it much safer. landing fair->downB and the transcendent projectile hits the opponent while you reflect/absorb whatever is being thrown at you, then jump immediately afterwards. Bomb is still great enough to use against some projectile-based characters, though I'd rather have reflector against the likes of Mega Man for instance. There's not many situations where you'll be baited for using it that easily since you're rarely forced to use it unlike Fox.

I guess but I'm honestly not the type to use reflectors/counters all that much and would rather a more versatile tool for all MUs, even against other projectile heavy characters. The only exception would be Villager's Pocket and Palutena's Reflect but the latter is still way out classed by Super Speed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So I was thinking about the concept of "safety" when doing a move on shield and figured that, since there isn't any sort of universal 1f attack option it's not simply a matter of looking at frame advantage and declaring a move unsafe. Then there's spacing and range and all that jazz.

With that in mind, a question: Who has the fastest and slowest OOS options in the game?

 

[Locke 06]

He's on the slower side and lacks range. A good projectile is not enough to win and characters with reflectors hurt him.

Lucario's projectile is strong, but it's not really that good. The projectile itself is not incredibly fast (unlike thoron/key/charge shot) and has a decent amount of startup/endlag. The best part about aura sphere is the charging animation. The momentum shifts because of it, the hitbox it provides, and how it shortens the startup for releasing the aura sphere are what sets that move apart from other charge-based projectiles.

Aura increases reward on hit, recovery, and gives him a spacing option in force palm. He still suffers greatly from having a terrible neutral game, but it is helped by people being scared of his aura. Once you get over the fear of the monster in the closet, you see he's just a sweater.

This isn't to say he's awful, but he doesn't stand out as amazing or very threatening compared to the top.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some Megaman talk that I'd like to address.

holds his own with a good deal of the cast and invalidates some characters with his camp game. Nobody is playing him perfectly/optimally and there's a lot to be explored. Zucco, SSGuy, and NinjaLink are great players and have been great for the character in terms of representing and getting exposure, but they're all working on parts of their game that are lacking. He is a hard character to master mostly because he is unconventional with some AT-like things that are very important to his gameplay and his non-safe moves are so punishable. Things like item-tilting, z-drop aerials, and SH lemons need to become second nature if you want to push the character to his potential.

And then his punish game requires you to be precise and confident. His grab game is so good, but I'm starting to think of it almost as a crutch for how punishing the character can actually be. It's the safe option that yields good reward, but he has better punishes. How many perfect shield utilt punishes have you seen? Furthermore, anything that has a 13 frame window of vulnerability in front of Mega Man's shield should be shield-drop utilted for a kill around 80%. However, shield grabbing is so much safer.

Since the game is so young and he's a new character, his potential is far and away above the level where he's being played at now. This is true for a lot of characters, but the more conventional ones have a foundation to be built off of (Sheik and Diddy thrive off of fundamentals built from previous Smash games) while there hasn't been a mid-range zoner like Mega Man in Smash before.

 

[Antonykun]

Once you get over the fear of the monster in the closet, you see he's just a sweater.

Did you just make a fairly odd parents reference?

 

[Locke 06]

Did you just make a fairly odd parents reference?

Not specifically or intentionally. That's a general life/parenting reference.

But yes, I do know exactly what you are talking about. And I appreciate that you saw it as such.

 

[Yonder]

I think you misspelled "noting"

Dang autocorrect. Yes, I meant noting thank you.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Like half of what people are saying about Lucario and his downsides are pretty much true (he does have the worst neutral of potential tops), but it doesn't matter. So lets say Lucario is at high aura and his opponent is at zero. What does it take for Lucario to take the next stock? It's about three reads as long as the last one is Force Palm, and they don't really have to be in a row. That's insane; no other character can do anything even vaguely like that. Lucario just has to focus on not dying (pretty easy when you're heavy and have an infinite recovery) and hitting sometimes and he wins. Snaring Aura Sphere is significantly better than default Aura Sphere but default is honestly still a pretty good move especially at high aura; both are among the better projectiles in the game. I can put up with a lot of mediocre frame data in exchange for the damage differential I need to win being 2:1 which is pretty close to what Lucario can expect if played optimally. Right now people are hitting a lot of buttons; when the game slows down and Lucario players just stop losing stocks early (Lucario *has* to stretch stocks), I'm scared of this character especially if people keep playing characters who don't kill early which is what a lot of people are doing right now. IMO right now people are more enamored with consistent safe neutral than potential pay-offs (hence the consistently high ranks of Sheik and Pikachu), but I'm impressed with the raw rewards Lucario offers that are second to none and are pretty crazy favorable on the old risk-reward scale.

I feel this way about Charizard. He has the overall best grab in the game (it's a "normal grab" with bigger range than anyone else's), and it's paired with good, rewarding throws. Charizard has a very good 11% jab that challenges most people up close very well. If they back off and try to play slower neutral, Flamethrower just eats them up with the whole "totally safe" thing (Flamethrower is also a lot of free damage against most recoveries). Speaking of recovery, Charizard has a pretty good one especially with customs since Dragon Rush is an incredible move. Rock Smash is a really, really good move; even characters like Rosalina just can't safely space aerials against it, it escapes tons of stuff, and it kills. Usmash and utilt have insane priority and anti-air everything. Either Flare Blitz or Dragon Rush are among the best roll punishes in the game and Charizard's bair is probably the best aerial in the game at being a long range power poke. He's basically impossible to run away from safely and you need to be super precise to projectile zone him in a winning way. Being a multi-jumper may seem trivial, but it lets him turn around in the air with a mid-air jump which for a character like Charizard is actually *extremely* useful. In all of this, I believe Charizard covers every possible problem. He's still pretty slow and has to be pretty smart to stay safe, and he doesn't hit quite as hard as Bowser or DK, but I believe the game just comes together to work for him in a big way. If you miss any one piece of this he just seems awful which is why I thought he was near bottom for a long time, but everything just works together and works together right for Charizard in this game.

I don't really see anyone doing what Bowser Jr. does. He seems completely unique as far as I can tell; he's a super interesting character. I will admit I'm still not quite 100%, but I've seen enough to estimate high instead of estimate low as I'd been inclined to do before.

 

[dragontamer]

Lucario's projectile is strong, but it's not really that good. The projectile itself is not incredibly fast (unlike thoron/key/charge shot) and has a decent amount of startup/endlag.

It must be my (minor) SF experience, but slow projectiles are my favorite. Lucario's slow aura spheres control space and stay out for longer than most projectiles. Slow projectiles (PacMan's Melon, Mario's Fireball, Samus's slow missiles, Lucario's Aura Spheres) control space as they "hang around".

The goal of "slow projectiles" isn't to actually KO your opponent with them (indeed, the projectiles are so slow that the opponent often avoids them). Instead, you KO your opponent as they recover from Air Dodge lag. Or maybe your super-slow Aura Sphere forced the opponent to "recover low", which opens them up to a Bair back-stage spike.

Think two steps ahead with slow projectiles. Don't hit your opponent with them, hit your opponent while they're dodging the slow projectile. Forcing your opponent into Lucario's Bair is quite solid.

The only exception is like, Robin's Thoron which is both meaty and ridiculously fast. But as a "space control", I guess Thoron isn't actually too good at that. Its just kind of a pocket-threat that forces the opponent to stop rolling or air dodging.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Lucario can't be better then Sheik. He is sooooooooooooo underwhelming. Like honestly worse then Marth. But aura is THAT ridiculous.

He probably wins against her which helps.

 

[David Viran]

Like half of what people are saying about Lucario and his downsides are pretty much true (he does have the worst neutral of potential tops), but it doesn't matter. So lets say Lucario is at high aura and his opponent is at zero. What does it take for Lucario to take the next stock? It's about three reads as long as the last one is Force Palm, and they don't really have to be in a row. That's insane; no other character can do anything even vaguely like that. Lucario just has to focus on not dying (pretty easy when you're heavy and have an infinite recovery) and hitting sometimes and he wins. Snaring Aura Sphere is significantly better than default Aura Sphere but default is honestly still a pretty good move especially at high aura; both are among the better projectiles in the game. I can put up with a lot of mediocre frame data in exchange for the damage differential I need to win being 2:1 which is pretty close to what Lucario can expect if played optimally. Right now people are hitting a lot of buttons; when the game slows down and Lucario players just stop losing stocks early (Lucario *has* to stretch stocks), I'm scared of this character especially if people keep playing characters who don't kill early which is what a lot of people are doing right now. IMO right now people are more enamored with consistent safe neutral than potential pay-offs (hence the consistently high ranks of Sheik and Pikachu), but I'm impressed with the raw rewards Lucario offers that are second to none and are pretty crazy favorable on the old risk-reward scale.

I feel this way about Charizard. He has the overall best grab in the game (it's a "normal grab" with bigger range than anyone else's), and it's paired with good, rewarding throws. Charizard has a very good 11% jab that challenges most people up close very well. If they back off and try to play slower neutral, Flamethrower just eats them up with the whole "totally safe" thing (Flamethrower is also a lot of free damage against most recoveries). Speaking of recovery, Charizard has a pretty good one especially with customs since Dragon Rush is an incredible move. Rock Smash is a really, really good move; even characters like Rosalina just can't safely space aerials against it, it escapes tons of stuff, and it kills. Usmash and utilt have insane priority and anti-air everything. Either Flare Blitz or Dragon Rush are among the best roll punishes in the game and Charizard's bair is probably the best aerial in the game at being a long range power poke. He's basically impossible to run away from safely and you need to be super precise to projectile zone him in a winning way. Being a multi-jumper may seem trivial, but it lets him turn around in the air with a mid-air jump which for a character like Charizard is actually *extremely* useful. In all of this, I believe Charizard covers every possible problem. He's still pretty slow and has to be pretty smart to stay safe, and he doesn't hit quite as hard as Bowser or DK, but I believe the game just comes together to work for him in a big way. If you miss any one piece of this he just seems awful which is why I thought he was near bottom for a long time, but everything just works together and works together right for Charizard in this game.

I don't really see anyone doing what Bowser Jr. does. He seems completely unique as far as I can tell; he's a super interesting character. I will admit I'm still not quite 100%, but I've seen enough to estimate high instead of estimate low as I'd been inclined to do before.

The only reason I said he shouldn't be that high is because he has tons of trouble with characters who kill early like ness. As time goes on lucario will learn to survive better but other people will also learn to kill better too.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The only reason I said he shouldn't be that high is because he has tons of trouble with characters who kill early like ness. As time goes on lucario will learn to survive better but other people will also learn to kill better too.

I do agree Ness is a great pick vs Lucario and has the advantage in that match-up (and Snaring Aura Sphere is just useless vs Ness thanks to PSI Magnet, making Ness an even *better* anti-Lucario character in a funny way in customs on). I don't think any character in this game just beats everyone; the balance is actually pretty good. I just think as a whole Lucario is a really good value proposition and that he is solid enough to be able to win in every match-up even vs Ness which in terms of game theory is definitely his worst one. Picking him is accepting a lot of volatility in your life, but I dunno, volatility doesn't seem so bad to me when it averages really well.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

His worst match up is most likely some who can kill early and abuse the neutral as much as possible.

Ness fits parts of that but is still tricky overall since Ness' neutral isn't as abusive.

Also o would recommend normal aura sphere over sharing when you hit no clue who you are up against. Sharing gets counter picked and shut down way too hard when it does.

 

[Chuva]

On paper Shulk looks like a terrible MU for Lucario...like, counter-pick terrible

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think Mac does well vs Lucario and surprisingly bottom tier Marth.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So long as you respect back-air and Force palm, Lucario is fully tameable.
Most of his ranges don't actually increase with aura and Shulks range is solid regardless.
Despite all of that you can kill Lucario with an Uptilt in Smash @ what 125% or so? If you commit to a smash attack you can do 20-40% earlier then that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think Mac does well vs Lucario and surprisingly bottom tier Marth.

Not really, if he gets high aura or a good hit he can make it just as swingy as Mac makes it for him.

 

[Locke 06]

It must be my (minor) SF experience, but slow projectiles are my favorite. Lucario's slow aura spheres control space and stay out for longer than most projectiles. Slow projectiles (PacMan's Melon, Mario's Fireball, Samus's slow missiles, Lucario's Aura Spheres) control space as they "hang around".

The goal of "slow projectiles" isn't to actually KO your opponent with them (indeed, the projectiles are so slow that the opponent often avoids them). Instead, you KO your opponent as they recover from Air Dodge lag. Or maybe your super-slow Aura Sphere forced the opponent to "recover low", which opens them up to a Bair back-stage spike.

Think two steps ahead with slow projectiles. Don't hit your opponent with them, hit your opponent while they're dodging the slow projectile. Forcing your opponent into Lucario's Bair is quite solid.

The only exception is like, Robin's Thoron which is both meaty and ridiculously fast. But as a "space control", I guess Thoron isn't actually too good at that. Its just kind of a pocket-threat that forces the opponent to stop rolling or air dodging.

Lucario's aura sphere isn't slow enough to be a "slow projectile" and has too much end lag. I totally know what you mean by slow projectiles being amazing, but I'm not sure Lucario's fits that role. (Dense charge shot is hilariously fun)

Uncharged, maybe... Fully charged is definitely not slow enough for you to bair anyone who jumps over it. (I think they would more likely powershield it in neutral)

Edit: disregard. This applies to default aura sphere. I have no experience with custom Lucarios.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Lucario's aura sphere isn't slow enough to be a "slow projectile" and has too much end lag. I totally know what you mean by slow projectiles being amazing, but I'm not sure Lucario's fits that role. (Dense charge shot is hilariously fun)

Uncharged, maybe... Fully charged is definitely not slow enough for you to bair anyone who jumps over it. (I think they would more likely powershield it in neutral)

Pretty sure he means Snaring Aura Sphere.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Not really, if he gets high aura or a good hit he can make it just as swingy as Mac makes it for him.

Mac can end it before he hits 100 which is something alot of mobile characters can't do. That and a better footsie game makes me feel Mac has a slight edge. It is NOT domination. Really I think only Diddy and Sheik have those kind of matches.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Lucario's aura sphere isn't slow enough to be a "slow projectile" and has too much end lag. I totally know what you mean by slow projectiles being amazing, but I'm not sure Lucario's fits that role. (Dense charge shot is hilariously fun)

Uncharged, maybe... Fully charged is definitely not slow enough for you to bair anyone who jumps over it. (I think they would more likely powershield it in neutral)

samus's slow charge shot custom is beauty and a very un fair edge guard move really.

*edit* im really into samus lately huh? just noticing. i guess i just got more to contribute for her rather than the pits.

 

[san.]

I'd need to this in action side-by-side because I swear when I had a short/skinny Swordfighter the sword was a toothpick and didn't seem to reach as far the sword for short/fat Mii. Same with Gunner, Fsmash not only looks shorter but doesn't seem to hit as far as short/fat Fmsash gunner. I need visual confirmation and I don't really have the means to test it out myself. Because if that is truly the case I might have to look into it. Is there a video showcasing this at all, preferably with the Short Miis where I think it has the biggest impact?

I tested the range difference for the entirety of Gunner's and Swordsman's movesets using a short and fat/skinny Miis. It's not too difficult to test, since the skinny Mii will either have ghost range or the fat Mii will miss attacks that looked like they should've hit.

From the other parts of your post, Gunner can be played in a variety of ways that works. I like hiding in my own blasts as I get closer up and set up more safety/pressure nets, while pure keepaway isn't that bad either (though imo low damage racking).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Mac can end it before he hits 100 which is something alot of mobile characters can't do. That and a better footsie game makes me feel Mac has a slight edge. It is NOT domination. Really I think only Diddy and Sheik have those kind of matches.

I think he does well in specific areas but he doesn't win as well because Lucario is good at juggles and when his aura gets just a little going he can deal with Mac a lot better with his side B to help with neutral and off stage hit.

I agree he can end it early and he has the strong ground neutral, he's just not at the point I think he can firce it like Diddy or others can.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

R.O.B probably eats Lucario too. Just Up-throw if you dont close the stock out earlier.
Isnt force palm a projectile too? He should be able to reflect it just spinning in to Lucario.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think Doc is sufficiently inferior to Mario to be nearly the whole tier list apart. I would never suggest picking Doc since Mario is just flat better by a real margin, but it's not *that* big of a difference to make Doc actually worse than a lot of these guys. I see the other two clones (Dark Pit and Lucina) as inferior but trivially so and thus one place down only.

Can you elaborate about this a bit more, since a lot of people seem to disagree with this notion. I'd put him down one tier on your list to be sort of in the center as opposed to that high up but I'm curious as to your overall reasoning a bit more, well, in-depth.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

lucario does not like heavys....or anyone who does not have trouble killing.