Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Whoa I totally disagree on this. Ganon probably benefits more from Stale Moves as a system than anyone.

Not only does he kill with few hits and his kill move damages all outscale the stale moves curve, but Ganon more than any other character except maybe DDD suffer most the the hands of certain fast, repetitive moves or projectiles. Stales moves' primary purpose is to mitigate the negative effect of abusive moves, which Ganon is on the receiving end of frequently.

Also, this is sort of recapping the first point, but Ganon's hard-read playstyle means that he actually uses a wide variety of moves. Uair probably isn't fresh, but nair, wizkick, f-tilt, and jab are as likely to be fresh as they are not. F-smash loves stales moves.

Edit: I have always beleieved that the character hindered most by stale moves is Jigglypuff. (She fights with a constrained aerial moveset that is very hard to kill with when not fresh.) This is less true in this game, since bair can kill quite well and her ground game seems a little better, plus Rest. However, she's still my default guess for biggest stale moves loser.

Okay, I honestly believe your logic is a bit backwards here.

Because Ganondorf is underwhelming in neutral, he's not simply at risk of being hit by specific moves repeatedly. The thing is, he just gets punished more often than most characters. If anything, most characters have relative freedom to choose exactly which moves they want to use to deal damage to Ganon. So KOing Ganondorf is almost never an issue of stale moves, but an issue of his weight and recovery, both of which thankfully are reasonably solid in this game (though he can be gimped still, it just takes effort now). Also worth keeping in mind that Ganondorf is susceptible to practically every stale moves based juggle in this game due to his physics, another area where he loses out.

Ganon's one hit wonder read based playstyle often means he relies on very specific moves to capitalize on specific habits. The challenge of overcoming stale moves is a huge one on Ganondorf, because your best move for hitting your opponent is now much less useful for KOing. I mean, sure, Ganondorf can KO with most of his moves, if he's able to land them in the first place. But when people play specific ways to try to keep Ganondorf out, often your choices are limited.

The stale move system does hurt Jigglypuff in obvious ways as you stated, but also benefits her with an aerial combo game. Also it is worth keeping in mind that she does actually have several decent ground moves, including Jab, DA, and grab. Her ground game is unlikely to get KOs, sure, but she doesn't actually have the same restrictions as Ganondorf in finding her way around in neutral.

 

[Chuva]

Our anti-Diddy technology lab has reached the following conclusions so far:

-Be ready to spot-dodge Monkey Flips
-Desperately DI the down-thrown
-Chill in neutral
-Pick Kirby

Looking good but we need more!

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yes spot dodge is a good option for Monkey Flip avoiding, if you have a move that can beat it outright that's ideal as well too.

Neutral is scary and I suggest not hiding in shield but trying to move around and juke the throw. If Diddy gets desperate and goes for it abuse this game's rolling and make it favorable for yourself.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I know this may sound weird, but back in the day many people thought Jigglypuff was a secret counter to Diddy in Brawl since she could stay in the air and avoid some of his massive stage control and fast moves. Is she a possible counter?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I know this may sound weird, but back in the day many people thought Jigglypuff was a secret counter to Diddy in Brawl since she could stay in the air and avoid some of his massive stage control and fast moves. Is she a possible counter?

Less so in this game...honestly because they shifted more of Diddy's power to the rest of his moveset rather than Bananas.

 

[Asdioh]

Our anti-Diddy technology lab has reached the following conclusions so far:

-Be ready to spot-dodge Monkey Flips
-Desperately DI the down-thrown
-Chill in neutral
-Pick Kirby

Looking good but we need more!

As a Kirby main I actually think he has a pretty good matchup against him. 5 jumps to avoid banana and monkey flip shenanigans, has very good combo options on Diddy, and he's very strong at edgeguarding Diddy, which is part of the suggested advice. He can also grab a banana + Popgun and camp the crap out of him.

Sonic, on the other hand, is less fun.

 

[Radical Larry]

Our anti-Diddy technology lab has reached the following conclusions so far:

-Be ready to spot-dodge Monkey Flips
-Desperately DI the down-thrown
-Chill in neutral
-Pick Kirby

Looking good but we need more!

You don't have to spot-dodge Monkey Flips, just simply roll the opposite direction. It gives you more ground to cover for Zoning.
If you spot-dodge, and he's close, you better have a good OoS option (like Link's Spin Attack).

I find that Link is the biggest counter to Diddy Kong now, since Link can basically do things better than Diddy Kong. Link's footsies is safe against Diddy, Link's Zoning and Spacing outdo Diddy's, and Link can combo-break an impromptu U-air from Diddy with D-air or Bomb Drop.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think a lot of chars can FIGHT Diddy (not WIN the MU I don't think Diddy outright loses ANY MUs but has some even ones), it's just a bit more difficult and it's gotta be approached differently until they either patch or change him.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy's design isn't necessarily a problem, it's just the rewards diddy get is bonkers, as he practically only needs two moves to be successful, hence the counter play that would exist elsewhere on his kit can't be accentuated as a pro-shield/grab based game has the least amount of holes in it.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link is either an even MU or the only Soft-Counter MU against Diddy.
But for the most part, I agree that Diddy has mainly winnable or even MUs against others.

 

[TTTTTsd]

What if D-Throw bounced behind him a bit further so you could DI away from Uair but he could Bair you at low %s?

I'm not gonna spitball Diddy changes though, I'm gonna talk about DOC VERSUS DIDDY which I think is entirely doable.

I don't have incredible experience but I'll post basic ideas, maybe some other Doc mains can come in and help me?

Options I know of so far
- Doc's Neutral sucks here, stay defensive at beginning, throw pills and force him to come in (he might popgun honestly so that's a potential issue in itself), bait the grab (obv.)
- Bair his Monkey Flip. If it trades you get RIDICULOUS damage on him especially if Bair is fresh.
- If you can grab Diddy go for it, Doc gets good reward from his grab and it sets up further pressure after the free UpAir.
- Edgeguarding is funny and I wish we had Yoshi's Island from Melee so I could condone falling Nair on Diddy (LEGDROP LEGDROP) into walljump, but I recommend drop down Bair from the ledge and then Up+B to get back (double jump if you must.)

I think Doc's goal versus Diddy is to
- Rack up damage and get him offstage, onstage kills will not be a frequent thing with Doc here.
- Back air the **** out of him when you can get him offstage. Ideal ways to do this are: B-Throw, any of your tilts, spotdodge monkey flip and watching him careen off.

Def. in Diddy's favor but I think Doc can win if he makes the right decisions.

 

[Browny]

Anyone have frame data on diddys uair strings?

Please tell me theres a 1 frame gap I can rest him from

 

[Radical Larry]

vs

Options:
-SH Bomb Drop Camp to beat Diddy's Monkey Flip tactics and to change Diddy's strategy as a whole. It also would provide a great range for Spacing and Zoning Diddy at the same time. Very safe if you go backwards.
-N-air and Jab are good Footsies options against Diddy Kong because of their speed and low lags (with N-air, it's the landing lag I'm talking about). F-air and F-Tilt are also decent footsies options against Diddy, and both F-Smash and D-Smash are decent as well.
-D-air and FF D-air out-prioritize Diddy's U-air, and the former is very safe when bouncing off Diddy's shield.
-Spin Attack beats a mid to far Monkey Flip.
-Meteor Bombs do well against Diddy Kong off the stage.

Goal:
-Make sure to get good hits with the F-Smash, F-air and any grab combos.
-Use Bomb Drop Camping constantly to keep Diddy's strategy at bay.
-Avoid Diddy's grabs, and if he throws you, use D-Air.

Link is a good character against Diddy Kong, and has options against Diddy Kong that do well.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

if I understand mastercore enough. It starts up 3 frames, lasts for 5 frames. Now im not sure on what the actual lag is, but I assume it's atleast 15 frames since that's the last visible number. So 5-15, 10 + 3, at least 13 frames between u-air strings?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

if we are gunna start MU talk ima bring in pit v diddy then.

diddy does not like arrows. like at all but i dont think diddly likes projectiles in general but pits are reletivly safe when used smartly.
and intersting note is that both pit and diddy should be objectivly avoiding one situation. being above the other.
pit does not want to be above diddy for obvious reasons that apply to most of the cast.
diddy does not want to above pit because of pits plethora of safe juggling options and arrows as well to force unwanted air dodging for punishes.
f tilt out right beats monkey flip. tested myself monkey flip just cant avoid that large disjoint even in short hop. we all know diddy is considerably vulnerable off stage because of his rather predictable recovery moves. giving a strong gimper like pit the absolute advantage off stage.
just be wary of monkey flip air grabs so apporach from safe angles and u should be dandy.
But pit has to be extreamly cautious when on stage in the neutral with diddy. be warry of grabs and bananas. easyer said than done i know. but if we can avoid those things i stated the diddy MU should be alot more even. maybe in pit favour.

 

[NairWizard]

Link is either an even MU or the only Soft-Counter MU against Diddy.
But for the most part, I agree that Diddy has mainly winnable or even MUs against others.

Sorry to rain on the parade of anti-Diddy tactics, but I think Link is a fairly poor choice against Diddy. It's doable from the Link side, but Diddy is just too mobile for Link, and Diddy's aerials are just too big.

You mentioned d-air, but I think that d-air is a really poor option vs. Diddy. The Diddy can just wait and punish you for using such a laggy move, and if you use it to bounce off his shield you're getting f-smashed or f-aired or b-aired. You're much better off using fastfall n-air to interrupt Diddy's combos.

He has footsies that work against Diddy's footsies, but so do most of the cast. The problem for most is that Diddy gets more reward out of landing a hit in footsies than they do, and Link is no different in this regard. The reward that Link gets for landing a jab on Diddy is trivial compared to the reward that Diddy gets for landing a banana -> grab -> f-air string.

Link has decent options against Monkey Flip, but most of them are predictive, outside of spotdodging: you have to see the Monkey Flip coming and hit up-smash or up-tilt (you shouldn't roll if you don't know that it's coming; that's a fairly mediocre option compared to spotdodge, which also lets you attack Diddy during the endlag of the move). Spin is way too slow to perform on reaction, unless Diddy misses his side-b (but crawldashing should get him out of harm's way).

On the flipside, Link lacks one of the most useful qualities vs. Diddy: a good grab. The best way to not get grabbed (outside of the Ice Climbers MU) is to grab first. But Link has a really hard time grabbing first because if he relies too much on grabs he leaves himself wide open (this is why tether grab characters have historically struggled vs. high-reward characters like Diddy). His grab is very laggy.

Link is also very tall, and he falls pretty fast, both traits that you don't want against Diddy's aerial game. I think he's one of the easier characters for Diddy to harass with throw combos and f-airs. Link's tether recovery is pretty good against Diddy's edgeguarding, though, that much is true.

If you want a slow sword character with a projectile and a bad grab who does decently against Diddy, Robin is a safe bet--but I think that Robin loses also. Probably by a little less than Link because Diddy has a hard time dealing with Levin aerials like f-air and up-air.

Having said that, I do want Links to try to beat Diddys and advance the Link metagame, but it's not as good as done yet: more developments need to occur before it can even *seem* like it's in Link's favor.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser Jr. tho

 

[ChronoPenguin]

If Pit is anti-diddy I'll eat my left nut.
I had to switch to Shulk because my Pit couldn't do **** to diddy.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

If Pit is anti-diddy I'll eat my left nut.
I had to switch to Shulk because my Pit couldn't do **** to diddy.

lol my shulk is really bad againts diddy. perhaps our playstyles also plays a role on our success.
witch is a very good thing actually. that may mean alot of character have playstyle advantages as well over other characters.
or my shulk is booty

 

[Emblem Lord]

SolidSense making alot of ****ing sense.

 

[Lavani]

if I understand mastercore enough. It starts up 3 frames, lasts for 5 frames. Now im not sure on what the actual lag is, but I assume it's atleast 15 frames since that's the last visible number. So 5-15, 10 + 3, at least 13 frames between u-air strings?

15f is the autocancel point. Without landing, Diddy's committed to the attack for about 30~40f airborne I believe.

 

[xxMiles]

Does anyone have any idea on what characters we're thinking of as bad/good?

 

[NairWizard]

Does anyone have any idea on what characters we're thinking of as bad/good?

No, no one here has any idea. The last 157 pages of discussion were about different ways to baste a turkey.

 

[xxMiles]

No, no one here has any idea. The last 157 pages of discussion were about different ways to baste a turkey.

EDIT: I was told to ask here. I didn't bother reading the rest of the thread (it's 157 pages, who wants to read through all that).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I was told to ask here, so. Not sure why you're being sarcastic about it, but okay-

It's not hard to just y'know, read the discussion and make your own opinion from it. You don't have to read all of it. Pick a page and go crazy.

Or hell, just read this page and notice that we're talking about Diddy, arguably the best character right now.

 

[xxMiles]

It's not hard to just y'know, read the discussion and make your own opinion from it. You don't have to read all of it. Pick a page and go crazy.

Or hell, just read this page and notice that we're talking about Diddy, arguably the best character right now.

Too much reading.

I mean, a mod locked my topic and directed me here, so. Idk why he locked it anyway.

 

[Luco]

Too much reading.

I mean, a mod locked my topic and directed me here, so. Idk why he locked it anyway.

lol, it's fine.

Our good characters that are winning tournaments seem to be along with peeps like who are just overall very very strong.

Bad characters in this game don't seem to be too crazily bad, in fact they're still usually viable but simply less good than others. Those characters seem to be ones such as and MAYBE (I dunno I think she's somewhere in low tier personally), I dunno.

 

[Kisatamura]

What if D-Throw bounced behind him a bit further so you could DI away from Uair but he could Bair you at low %s?

I'm not gonna spitball Diddy changes though, I'm gonna talk about DOC VERSUS DIDDY which I think is entirely doable.

I don't have incredible experience but I'll post basic ideas, maybe some other Doc mains can come in and help me?

Options I know of so far
- Doc's Neutral sucks here, stay defensive at beginning, throw pills and force him to come in (he might popgun honestly so that's a potential issue in itself), bait the grab (obv.)
- Bair his Monkey Flip. If it trades you get RIDICULOUS damage on him especially if Bair is fresh.
- If you can grab Diddy go for it, Doc gets good reward from his grab and it sets up further pressure after the free UpAir.
- Edgeguarding is funny and I wish we had Yoshi's Island from Melee so I could condone falling Nair on Diddy (LEGDROP LEGDROP) into walljump, but I recommend drop down Bair from the ledge and then Up+B to get back (double jump if you must.)

I think Doc's goal versus Diddy is to
- Rack up damage and get him offstage, onstage kills will not be a frequent thing with Doc here.
- Back air the **** out of him when you can get him offstage. Ideal ways to do this are: B-Throw, any of your tilts, spotdodge monkey flip and watching him careen off.

Def. in Diddy's favor but I think Doc can win if he makes the right decisions.

Pills have the advantage of hampering Diddy's movement if he decides to stay in one place. Of course, if Diddy decides to rush you down, then he can possibly avoid the pills and punish Doc if you're too close in midrange. I've also beaten out the Monkey Flip with Tornado on For Glory, but that's For Glory :V

The only thing I can say about Diddy is that his dash attack isn't uber safe anymore (You can UpB it from shield if you've got good reactions), but both Doc and Diddy are momentum based so if he gets knocked by Doc's bair or whatever, then Dr. Mario has the advantage. Of course, if the banana hits you... Definitely I will agree that this matchup favors Diddy but Dr. Mario has answers. It's just that Diddy outpaces Doc if he gets the momentum going.

 

[Emblem Lord]

it is done brothers

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...traps-an-intro-to-high-level-concepts.380200/

 

[Sinister Slush]

I mean, a mod locked my topic and directed me here, so. Idk why he locked it anyway.

Because a thread made where people will pretty much discuss the same stuff in your thread when there's already another thread that's been made for awhile where they been talking about the same thing is better than overflowing the board with multiple "who top/bottom tier?"

Give it maybe a day or even less for somebody to bring up another tierlist like post once you start seeing more than 10+ character heads in a post.

 

[xxMiles]

lol, it's fine.

Our good characters that are winning tournaments seem to be along with peeps like who are just overall very very strong.

Bad characters in this game don't seem to be too crazily bad, in fact they're still usually viable but simply less good than others. Those characters seem to be ones such as and MAYBE (I dunno I think she's somewhere in low tier personally), I dunno.

Pikachu is doing good? That's good, but I was under the impression that Pikachu got nerfed. Guess I'm wrong.

Kirby being in that category doesn't seem right to me, personally. I've done really good with Kirby, idk.

Good to see Ness doing well though. I also am wondering where Mega Man is in that list. I've heard he's good (I can't use him though).

 

[IcyFlamz96]

Are there any Wii U videos of good Sonics in action?

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think the best place to go ask that is the Sonic Boards.

 

[Ffamran]

Pikachu is doing good? That's good, but I was under the impression that Pikachu got nerfed. Guess I'm wrong.

Kirby being in that category doesn't seem right to me, personally. I've done really good with Kirby, idk.

Good to see Ness doing well though. I also am wondering where Mega Man is in that list. I've heard he's good (I can't use him though).

Pikachu got nerfed... Pikachu nerfed... THAT YELLOW BA- *gets dragged off and sedated*

Mega Man is good, but he's much more different than everyone else like how Ike - less so in SSB4 - and Ganondorf are more punish-based (defensive) characters while everyone else fits into zoning, rushdown, etc. Mega Man plays like... A Street Fighter or an Marvel vs. Capcom fighter than a SSB fighter. He has a ton of projectiles and his Smashes are more for damage while U-tilt, his Shoryuken is a kill move. So, Mega Man's unique to say the least. I don't play as him a lot, but since I used to play as Ike a lot in Brawl, punishing, baiting, and waiting play styles sort of became natural to me so, it makes playing Mega Man a bit easier in a sense that I know Mega Man's not that fast and his attacks tend to be powerful and somewhat slow, but not as slow as Triple D, Ike, or Palutena though.

Oh, and you do know there's a Mega Man thread where you can look up strategies and stuff. I think there's a gameplay thread - I believe every character has one.

 

[Minordeth]

I've had better luck with Palutena vs the various Diddy's I come across. Maybe it's a player thing, but she really does seem to have some fairly decent anti-Diddy tools, like reflect/range, two fast, ultra priority attacks, and a solid jab into decent follow-ups. Not to mention a decent counter and the ability to get back into neutral relatively easily.

Of course, I'm new to Palutena as a character, and should I fail with her, Ganon is always there to pick me up with him all being restronkulous.

 

[Orion*]

like i once heard orion complementing people who want to be the best ganon. but he said he just has different goals and wants to see how good he is in general. But what i wanted to say at that moment was I dont want to be the best ganon or pit or (insert character) i just wana prove that these characters can beat the suposed top tiers to a pulp and that the tier list is bonked.

Thats cool, and i do think that people look at tier lists to much without thinking for themselves. But at the same time, some characters tools are inherently better by design and imo there is only so much you can do to change that. Look at brawl MK to brawl Ganon for example. Even if you fleshed out every inch of ganons meta to the point where you Could win.... how consistent do you think you would be vs a player of mew2kings caliber?

Playing a worse character for the most part essentially means that you have to guess (and out read) your opponent more often than they have to read you assuming the games being played optimally. If you put in the hours, on your best day maybe you are capable of beating any player with any character. But I dont think playing low tier characters will bring consistent and long term results

....At least for me. Maybe someone out there is legitimately dedicated enough to just outskill me every time on some daigo mindgames, and if that's what you want to do then goodluck to you.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I don't get what a reflector has to do with Diddy.
Unless its a Mario/Swordfighter/Doc Cape that can turn his recover on its head, and has that niche. Reflector is negligible. The ability to reflect a peanut is isn't worth peanuts.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't get what a reflector has to do with Diddy.
Unless its a Mario/Swordfighter/Doc Cape that can turn his recover on its head, and has that niche. Reflector is negligible. The ability to reflect a peanut is isn't worth peanuts.

What about Falco's Reflector and Palutena's Reflect Barrier? They both push/interrupt at a safe distance compared to the capes and Zelda's Nayru's Love and Fox's Reflector.

 

[NairWizard]

EDIT: I was told to ask here. I didn't bother reading the rest of the thread (it's 157 pages, who wants to read through all that).

My apologies if I seemed harsh/rude, but this whole thread is devoted to the question "Who is good and bad?" Every single post has relevance. I recommend reading through the topic if you want some insight. You don't have to read 157 pages, but it's a little annoying when someone comes into the topic without having read any of it and just starts treading over old ground again. That said, Luco's post is a good survey of the customs-disabled competitive landscape.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What about Falco's Reflector and Palutena's Reflect Barrier? They both push/interrupt at a safe distance compared to the capes and Zelda's Nayru's Love and Fox's Reflector.

Reflecting diddys projectiles is a waste. Falcons reflector is beneficial for its attack range.

What do you really get out of reflecting a peanut its not really significant