Character Competitive Impressions

[Baskerville]

Just out of curiosity, can Diddy throw another banana if Villager pockets it?

Nope.

 

[Terotrous]

So did you switch Little mac from being a hard counter for Yoshi to Mii Brawler now?

I don't think Mii Brawler specifically counters Yoshi at all, he's just a good character and right now the changes thread doesn't have him listed as either having changes or being unchanged. If he is unchanged, he will have risen a bit too, just like Diddy.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

They actually nerfed Mii Brawler's Final Smash IIRC.

Let me tell ya, its a real game changer, man.

 

[NairWizard]

@ Radical Larry ,

It sounds like the reason that you think Diddy isn't so hard is because you haven't been playing good enough Diddys. The online metagame is really, really different from the tournament and ladder experience. During my last 200 For Glory matches, I found one guy who was clearly tournament-level (and ironically he was a Link player).

It isn't difficult to find good tournament-level opponents to test your skills against, though. The smash dojo ladder and Anther's ladder are both great places to start. You can probably find willing challengers here too, or on the Link boards.

We're not judging your skill. You may in fact be tournament-level and better than everyone here. But you can't really tell that from just an online record. Any tournament-level player can have 95%+ winrate online without really breaking a sweat. The Wii U version is definitely better in terms of competition than the 3DS version (I've met more people who actually space f-airs on my shield as Marth, it's a miracle), but really I think you should try out some of the better competition to be found here and on other sites.

Even if it doesn't change your mind, it will at least improve your play (no matter what level you're currently at).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Trust me, @ Radical Larry , the actual offline meta is an entirely different beast. @ NairWizard is giving you a good place to start at least.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Chuva]

I've never seen a single online Diddy doing banana/peanut throws -> dash grab/monkey flip mixups

 

[Flamecircle]

I'm here to argue Olimar's case again after playing him for a day.

He has some clear weaknesses-
Incredibly weak kill power, outside of Uair and the smashes, unless you have a purple in hand.
Reflectors...
Mediocre Aerial Range and short active frames
Mixed feelings on the grab now, it's slower than I thought.
So light, so so light
Pikmin toss is pretty pathetic unless you use white
Bad at getting out of juggles

But, he's got merits-
Purple power is so strong
Fsmash is a very safe and dangerous poke long range poke
All aerials are effective out of shield, Nair can mixup and cross up
Aerials are fast enough that Uair-> Bair/Fair frame trap is very difficult to avoid
Very safe offstage chases
Custom pikmin throw that turns them into projectile gives Olimar debatably the best projectile in the game


Olimar is a mixed bag. He can play so safe and cheese out so many "cheap" kills, but the slightest hits will kill him. It's actually pretty annoying how BAD he is at certain things, like approaching and killing. The approaching thing is fair, but the killing thing is a bit sad- Olimar is probably the biggest loser to the RAGE mechanic in this game, and one of the biggest losers to staling due to how unlikely it is you'll use half his moveset.

However, he has unbalanced strengths to balance out those awkward flaws. He's SO GOOD at pivot smashing. Landing anywhere near Olimar is a free hit, unless you're Paluatena or Fox. Against the other reflectors,smashes can be held, and pivot grabs are very good mixups, so those matchups aren't nearly as bad. His downsmash is feeling very easy to catch rolls with, because I THINK the active frames are very long? Even if you do get close, his out of shield aerials are fast and sweeping enough to get out of pressure easily. Basically, approaching Olimar sucks.
I think I'm probably underselling the power of purple pikmin as well. Backair, an OK kill move, becomes pretty monstrous with a purple. Pikmin management is probably a hugely important skill that I don't really have down.

What I've really felt that's being overlooked though, and I may be wrong because I couldn't play the customs online, is that Olimar's butterfinger pikmin is so incredibly strong as a projectile.
1.It turns all the basic pikmin into 5% and white ones into 3%, which is exceptional damage on hit for a projectile.
2.You can throw them extremely fast in bursts of 3 ( although you'll usually just do two so you have one to defend yourself with)
3. Alternating trajectories on the pikmin makes it very difficult to avoid every time
4. Synergies with Olimar's ability to punish approach.

So, with butterfinger pikmin on, I believe Olimar becomes a supreme camper that few characters can match. Not only that, but he's a camper who's midrange camping moves(smashes) can randomly kill with the slightest of spacing differences.

 

[Terotrous]

I fought a really good Fox online recently. Went 1-1 with him and then the connection died. Fox is definitely still scary in this game, he just has such great pressure and he's also pretty safe. That wasn't the first Fox to give me trouble online, I obviously need to put more time into the Fox MU.

But yeah, good players are somewhat rare on FG. It's better to play player matches if you really want to learn matchups. This has the added benefit of allowing you to pick stages, which of course is necessary if you want to compete in a tournament since no tournament runs just FD.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah For Glory isn't the best spot. I fought one Diddy who wasn't really utilizing all of his best stuff.

Which is why before I could even post about Doc vs. Diddy I had to go watch a bunch of tournament diddy matches and compare it to my ideal Dr. Mario thing.

 

[Asdioh]

I seconded Fox in Brawl, and this version of Fox has many of the same strenghts, but most of his weaknesses were removed. For example, Brawl Fox imo would have a 50:50 matchup with Metaknight, if it weren't for the fact that MK could just plank all game if he really wanted to. He has incredible speed, not just for running but also vertical jumping/falling speed and fast attacks. His recovery is the best it's ever been thanks to sideB not putting him in freefall. With the new ledge mechanics, and removal of chaingrabs, plus apparently easier combos into upsmash and upair, Fox is crazy good this game. At least high tier/high mid tier for sure.

 

[NairWizard]

Fox's only problem is getting KOs. Up-smash is good, but not as obscene as it was in previous iterations, and Fox really has to fish for it to get it; none of his throws lead to kills either. He doesn't have any offstage options (he can fire lasers, that's about it); he just has to read your getup option from the ledge.

Fox's strength is in running away and landing small hits here and there (dash attack is great for this). Reflector + lasers mean that you have to approach him, and approaching is very difficult for slow characters like Robin, so he automatically does pretty well vs. these characters just by keeping a safe distance.

 

[Terotrous]

Fox's only problem is getting KOs. Up-smash is good, but not as obscene as it was in previous iterations, and Fox really has to fish for it to get it; none of his throws lead to kills either. He doesn't have any offstage options (he can fire lasers, that's about it); he just has to read your getup option from the ledge.

Fox's strength is in running away and landing small hits here and there (dash attack is great for this). Reflector + lasers mean that you have to approach him, and approaching is very difficult for slow characters like Robin, so he automatically does pretty well vs. these characters just by keeping a safe distance.

He's not sensational for kills, but he's definitely not terrible either. UpSmash may not be Melee status, but it's still a super good move, it kills fairly early and is really fast. FSmash, Uair, and Bair are also still viable kill options.

The main threat is just that he just builds percent like crazy. He can stick to you like glue, or he can hit and run, either way you won't avoid his damage for long.

 

[DJ Arcatek]

So I've come to the conclusion that Link is still low tier and it honestly saddens me

 

[NairWizard]

He's not sensational for kills, but he's definitely not terrible either. UpSmash may not be Melee status, but it's still a super good move, it kills fairly early and is really fast. FSmash, Uair, and Bair are also still viable kill options.

The main threat is just that he just builds percent like crazy. He can stick to you like glue, or he can hit and run, either way you won't avoid his damage for long.

Fox can't really pressure you for the kill. Lasers will keep adding percent but since you know that his best options to kill you are f-smash and up-smash, you can take that percent and play patiently when he's trying to go for the kill. F-smash and up-smash both leave him in a position to be punished, and you aren't really in danger of dying if you are thrown (Fox can't follow you offstage; his up-air is scary but it's also just one move--it's a good thing he has his b-air though).

Compare his KO potential to say Pikachu's. If you get grabbed by Pikachu at high %s you're in a lot of trouble: up-throw can lead to Thunder or jump up n-air (you have to guess; with Fox you know that his best option is up-air), and his other throws can send you offstage, where he is in the position to end your stock with numerous moves (basically his entire offstage moveset except Skull Bash is good for this, even his Quick Attack).

His f-smash is disjointed so it's actually really good when properly spaced and doesn't leave him open to punishes. His up-smash is as risky as Fox's, but his Quick Attack makes predicting when he'll use this much more difficult. You can't just shield his projectile unlike Fox's because Thunderjolt is really slow, and you will get grabbed out of your shield if you try to block it all the time.

Sheik is in the same boat as Pikachu (replace some of these offstage options with ledge trump b-air), and these two are notorious for having difficulty killing. Compare Fox to someone like Diddy or Marth instead--vast difference in KO power.

I'd say Fox's kill potential is one of the lowest in the game, really. He can definitely achieve kills, but it's more work than it is for most. I'm just going over characters in my head and I can't think of very many who have a harder time killing than Fox.

 

[Asdioh]

Dash attack to upair is a real threat, and nair to upsmash is apparently a true combo, I see high level players do it all the time. Even upthrow to upair isn't bad, because Fox's crazy fast jumpspeed makes it very hard to react, if he's playing patient and baiting airdodges.

There's also Reflector to- oh darn never mind

 

[Lord_Spoon]

So I've come to the conclusion that Link is still low tier and it honestly saddens me

I play a mean link, but i agree. i need a secondary.

 

[Ffamran]

So I've come to the conclusion that Link is still low tier and it honestly saddens me

If you add Lag, then Link becomes God Tier... Like every other projectile-spamming idiot on For Glory. Other character like Falco become Trash Tier if Lag is involved since you can't do anything... I hate Lag. Pls nerf.

Welp, even if Link's Low Tier in this game, he's not 64 or Brawl Low Tier which was a step above Brawl Ganondorf Tier and that's not saying much.

 

[NairWizard]

Observation: Diddy is hilariously free vs. Pikachu offstage. This is amusing.

 

[Kofu]

Let's talk about

I'm pretty sure that almost every other character has had decent discussion about them. But Wario's been curiously left out. Personally, I think he's just as effective in this game as in Brawl, something of a sleeper threat.

His mobility is as good as ever, and his ability to weave and poke is probably his greatest strength. His attacks also seem to deal a lot more damage than you would expect from what the actions are. His kill power is concentrated in a few moves (FSmash, Waft) but it's very potent (especially Waft, since you can do it virtually anywhere). His recovery is somewhat decent, and a few of his attacks have odd properties. I'm mainly thinking of his dash attack here, since it goes from having knockback to tripping as the move progresses (a great property IMO). His attacks are, for the most part, quick to come out and quick to end.

His customs seem decent overall; I personally like the Burying Bike a lot, since it retains the burying property even after he jumps off. The quick Waft is less powerful but still tends to kill around 100% and its quick recharge time is really handy.

I dunno, Wario seems really good still to me. But practically no one uses him so I have very little experience.

Tagging @ Shaya since he always seems to have good concepts of what a character is capable of.

 

[Nobie]

Nope.

I find it interesting how deliberate a choice this is, given that the same thing doesn't affect Mega Man. If Villager pockets Metal Blade, Mega Man can launch a new one immediately. It makes me think they tried to specifically balance those matchups around how effective the Pocket is.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Falling in Love with Gunners U-air.
Grenade launcher connects into other moves.
F-air strings into other moves.
Bomb drop is lol, Reflector is reflector. Does Absorbing Vortex eat Thoron?
Basically all his specials are solid.
F-smash with that multibox traps landings.

I dont think he has any problem wracking up damage.
Kill moves: Usmash, Charge Shot, dtilt, rocket uppercut. F-smash,D-smash,B-air kill later.

Granted the lag on some of his moves is a concern, but given F-smash,F-tilt, U-air, U-smash,D-smash...dtilt,D-air, F-air..and B-air I think are disjoints. Oh well? Plus his numerous projectile options.

What im really interested in is his value over other zoner characters.

 

[Shaya]

I've brought it up before but the slipperyness of due to air dodges was a really big factor to his play style due to having an enormous grab range and frame trap dominance. Ever since losing that, I don't know what does to get in or latch onto somebody in disgusting ways. He doesn't have to fear every grab now, but I think he'd trade grab releases again to get 2 frame landings on air dodges in a heartbeat (grab oos been kinda nerfed anyway as well) ['s grab being massive, aerial mobility, fast fall acceleration, god like spot dodge and 10 frame super armor fsmash mix ups]

When he gets a hit he can be really potent. His waft is arguably better (fully charged kills, and there's rage), and I don't think he's forced to play time out against anyone at this stage although he can freely play at a pace he so chooses without stress, which is great mentally during tournament. I don't think there's much stopping him, but at the same time he's going to be trying a lot harder to find openings in this game.

I really cannot say any more about him, he needs to be seen in tournament against high level players using great characters because it's all brooding potential and too many crucial differences to Brawl to just be able to plainly say anything about his viability.

Couldn't see him below mid. He'll likely retain top-tierdom in doubles.

 

[Chuva]

Sorry for bringing up the monkey again.

Regarding Diddy: not sure if that's how it worked in Brawl since I was never a competitive player in that game, but in this game most projectiles destroy peanuts (while staying alive in the process) and bananas (destroy both).

Which is why before I could even post about Doc vs. Diddy I had to go watch a bunch of tournament diddy matches and compare it to my ideal Dr. Mario thing.

Been messing with Doc and Diddy in the lab and megavitamins + SH Nair beats a lot of Diddy's approaches, Megavitamins, as abovementioned, has priority over peanuts and destroys banana throws. SH Nair, apparently thanks to the long active hitbox, beats both variants of Monkey Flip, dash attack and trades with Fair. Bair also seemed to trade a lot with Diddy's Fair. Megavitamins can also gimp Diddy's Up+B but it's tricky.

Doc should be able to keep Diddy a bit honest, especially because of how nasty Doc can be if he gets momentum (just like Diddy). I'd avoid plataform stages though because Diddy can just ignore everything I said by approaching from above.


Nothing conclusive, just food for though

 

[Spinosaurus]

Let's talk about

His mobility is as good as ever

Just gonna chime in to say that unfortunately that's not the case. Wario's air speed seems only slightly slower than in Brawl to me, but the thing is, his aerial acceleration got nerfed to hell so he can't just zip back and forth in the air at will anymore, which makes his poor range more problematic and he can't just bait and retreat quickly.

I'll agree that Heavy Bike and Quick Waft are pretty cool, though.

 

[PK Gaming]

Let's talk about

I'm pretty sure that almost every other character has had decent discussion about them. But Wario's been curiously left out. Personally, I think he's just as effective in this game as in Brawl, something of a sleeper threat.

His mobility is as good as ever, and his ability to weave and poke is probably his greatest strength. His attacks also seem to deal a lot more damage than you would expect from what the actions are. His kill power is concentrated in a few moves (FSmash, Waft) but it's very potent (especially Waft, since you can do it virtually anywhere). His recovery is somewhat decent, and a few of his attacks have odd properties. I'm mainly thinking of his dash attack here, since it goes from having knockback to tripping as the move progresses (a great property IMO). His attacks are, for the most part, quick to come out and quick to end.

His customs seem decent overall; I personally like the Burying Bike a lot, since it retains the burying property even after he jumps off. The quick Waft is less powerful but still tends to kill around 100% and its quick recharge time is really handy.

I dunno, Wario seems really good still to me. But practically no one uses him so I have very little experience.

Tagging @ Shaya since he always seems to have good concepts of what a character is capable of.

Wario's just a well-rounded fighter with an absurd weight + mobility combination. His range is poor and he lacks disjoints, but his mobility and command grab make up for it. Outside of the Waft, he actually has somewhat difficulty KOIng on the ground because he has to fish for KOs, and his smashes are very punishable (though edgeguarding game is solid) but it's fine because Wario is a character that abuses the system mechanics to their absolute max. KOing Wario is an extremely difficult task, and he benefits strongly from the rage mechanic. A rage boosted Waft can KO at obscenely low %. (It's pretty much the best KO move in the game). His Bike is naturally pretty versatile, and a solid tool in matchups (it can lock people in place because they have to jump or block it, and Wario can immediately jump off the bike).

It is very, very dangerous to let this character get the first KO. He has nowhere to go but up as the game ages.

 

[Wii Fit Bae]

Me vs Wizzzrobe
http://youtu.be/Qql1ERMjghk

Me vs Wizzzrobe
http://youtu.be/GAdbHc8ngW4

Critique and give advice please

 

[Browny]

Diddy is more boring to watch than brawl MK

Cookie-cutter bull**** all day long omg. At least MK was somewhat cool to watch with his crazy edgeguards.

- edit, I have no advice for you sorry, I dont even own the game yet.

 

[NairWizard]

Some thoughts on edgeguarding Diddy as Pikachu. I was going to post this on the Pikachu boards (and will eventually, after some more testing), but I think that this is important for our understanding of Diddy competitively.

Diddy is either going to recover high or recover low. Most Diddys know that their up-b is susceptible to gimping so they try to recover high first, and then recover low if that fails. As Pikachu, you have ample time to react to whichever option the Diddy picks.

High

If Diddy recovers high, you can Thunder him (Monkey Flip *is* a commitment) or b-air him depending on how high he is. If he tries some b-reverse shenanigan then the b-air will catch him out of it because b-air has so. many. hitboxes. Anyway, if he recovers high, he's facing lots of options from Pikachu. Don't let Diddy Monkey Flip back to the stage for free: you can catch it and hit him back offstage.

Low
If he recovers low or if you caught him out of his attempt to recover high, then he's got a couple of choices.

Monkey Flip:

He can Monkey Flip to the ledge, in which case you should see the Monkey Flip coming and b-air--he'll try to position himself so that he's on the same vertical level as the ledge of the stage, so even if he chooses not to Monkey Flip and up-bs instead, the same tactics will apply, and you can preemptively begin your b-air. The super bold can time a Thunder--if you do it right and it hits Pikachu at the moment that Diddy's kick does, then you will kill Diddy without taking any damage yourself. If you see Diddy drop lower than ledge-level, then you know he's going to...

Up-b:

Up-bs come in two flavors: he can charge from =down deep or he can charge a horizontal rocketbarrel. If he charges from =down deep then he's yours, you have tons of options. The best is fall-down n-air or f-air if he's close enough (or b-air if he's super close to the stage--this is the easiest gimping scenario; even angling won't save him). This will kill Diddy outright. Another really good option if Diddy isn't that deep is to go deeper than Diddy (fastfall) and up-b back to the edge. Since rocketbarrel is slower than Pikachu's up-b, you can interrupt his barrels and gimp him just by carefully angling your recovery. If you want to play it safe you can Thunderjolt if you can aim it carefully, but I've found that Diddys can just angle around the Tjolt and survive. Plus, the longer Diddy charges his barrels, the more control he has over where he ends up (since he goes further and has more time to angle).

If he charges a horizontal rocketbarrel, you probably can't gimp him, but Diddys don't like doing this because they can hit the edge of the stage and just die (it's a really silly thing). He could choose to rocketbarrel all the way back to the surface of the stage and land there, but that's a free punish for you (even though Diddy's stock stays intact). If he's at high enough percent, you can just run in and up-smash him after he crashes. Just watch out for the blast impact of the rocketbarrels (so insert a minor pause in your run: run part of the way there, wait, then run in and up-smash while he's in endlag).

Pikachu won't succesfully KO Diddy every single time that Diddy is offstage, but it'll happen often enough that Pikachu should be favored in the matchup by a significant margin. Diddy can't really edgeguard Pikachu in return: Diddy just has to throw a banana or try to catch your up-b with a f-air and basically let you get to the ledge for free. So that leaves the onstage game. Here, Diddy kills earlier and has better d-throw followups, but Pikachu's quick attack and thunderjolt match advantage for advantage, with QA being both an approach tool that gets around Diddy's f-air and also an escape tool that gets around banana and edge traps.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Diddy is more boring to watch than brawl MK

Cookie-cutter bull**** all day long omg. At least MK was somewhat cool to watch with his crazy edgeguards.

Brawl MK was more like "braindead edgeguards that other characters had little protection against + Shuttle Loop all day."

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shaya]

Early Brawl MK was pretty cookie cutter as well (DSMASH SHUTTLE LOOP). i wish other parts of diddy were like... worthwhile using though. You don't need anything else other than grabs to win right now ;\

 

[Kofu]

Just gonna chime in to say that unfortunately that's not the case. Wario's air speed seems only slightly slower than in Brawl to me, but the thing is, his aerial acceleration got nerfed to hell so he can't just zip back and forth in the air at will anymore, which makes his poor range more problematic and he can't just bait and retreat quickly.

I'll agree that Heavy Bike and Quick Waft are pretty cool, though.

Fair enough, I initially wanted to make Wario a Brawl maim of mine but I never really got into it. You'd probably know better than I do, lol. He does still fly a lot better than most heavies with his small frame and good air speed (if not acceleration) though.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

So I've come to the conclusion that Link is still low tier and it honestly saddens me

I really don't see it this time around.

 

[Kofu]

I find it interesting how deliberate a choice this is, given that the same thing doesn't affect Mega Man. If Villager pockets Metal Blade, Mega Man can launch a new one immediately. It makes me think they tried to specifically balance those matchups around how effective the Pocket is.

I don't see it like that necessarily. AFAIK the only spawned items that he can Pocket that prevent the spawning character from generating another one are bananas, Wario's bike, and ROB's gyro (Bonus Fruit is an interesting case; Pac-Man can't start charging another one if Villager has one in his hand, but if it's in his Pocket he's free to do what he wants). Metal Blades have no value sitting on the stage, whereas bananas and gyros do.

I didn't put a lot of thinking into this post so if there's another item that Pocket limits that I missed I apologize.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Radical Larry ,

It sounds like the reason that you think Diddy isn't so hard is because you haven't been playing good enough Diddys. The online metagame is really, really different from the tournament and ladder experience. During my last 200 For Glory matches, I found one guy who was clearly tournament-level (and ironically he was a Link player).

It isn't difficult to find good tournament-level opponents to test your skills against, though. The smash dojo ladder and Anther's ladder are both great places to start. You can probably find willing challengers here too, or on the Link boards.

We're not judging your skill. You may in fact be tournament-level and better than everyone here. But you can't really tell that from just an online record. Any tournament-level player can have 95%+ winrate online without really breaking a sweat. The Wii U version is definitely better in terms of competition than the 3DS version (I've met more people who actually space f-airs on my shield as Marth, it's a miracle), but really I think you should try out some of the better competition to be found here and on other sites.

Even if it doesn't change your mind, it will at least improve your play (no matter what level you're currently at).

I know that my opinion is far different because I go on For Glory, but that's so far, the closest I will get to a competitive scene; I'll definitely check our Smash Dojo Ladder and Anther's soon.

Quick questions pertaining to the bolded; was his username "Stephen"? Did he use a Gold or Dark Link? And were you on the 3DS version?

 

[NairWizard]

Quick questions pertaining to the bolded; was his username "Stephen"? Did he use a Gold or Dark Link? And were you on the 3DS version?

No, no, and no.

 

[Radical Larry]

No, no, and no.

Just asking.
Anyways, I will try out finding others, and who knows, I might find myself playing friendlies against M2K (which honestly, I'd love to learn how he does it).

 

[Shaya]

Top players are streaming and often fight spectators on stream.
Hit two birds with one stone, watching top players play and actually getting some experience within the paradigm/environment you find most comfortable.

 

[Tagxy]

I saw ESAM do the patent melee fox edgeguard on diddy. Kind of blew my mind that it worked.

Bthrow > thunderjolt > pwnage (aka hit him with any move while he tries to up-b). If they jump or side-b they get hit by the jolt. Of course its escapable but it requires falling below the ledge (), in fox's case his best option is to shine stall. Id need to test more to see if it works similarly enough in smash 4.

 

[Radical Larry]

Top players are streaming and often fight spectators on stream.
Hit two birds with one stone, watching top players play and actually getting some experience within the paradigm/environment you find most comfortable.

Now that seems like something I ought to try out.

 

[Hong]

Me vs Wizzzrobe
http://youtu.be/Qql1ERMjghk

Me vs Wizzzrobe
http://youtu.be/GAdbHc8ngW4

Critique and give advice please

This isn't really the place to be posting this. I admire your desire for advice and criticism, but you still need to either take it to the video forum or the relevant character forums.