Character Competitive Impressions

[CrowGoesCaw]

From what I've seen, Zelda seems to destory Duck Hunt.

 

[ZombieBran]

I'm not trying to be optimistic, just because Zelda mains have been hugely let down previously. But Smash 4 mechanics seem to help Zelda more than most characters. There are still people who are super pessimistic about Zelda (Aerodome for example) and maybe they're right, but while I'm hesitant to have high hopes I certainly don't want to be negative either.

In any case, I feel like Zelda is finally no longer one of the worst characters in the game.
that honor goes to Link

From what I've seen, Zelda seems to destory Duck Hunt.

She does.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wouldn't call Link bottom tier yet for three primary reasons.
1. Item tossing is the best attack in Smash. Period. Keeping in mind Link's Bombs also got buffed and no longer hurt him when they contact an enemy.
2. Jab is still decent and iirc can confirm into some KO options.
3. Link's grab is more viable.

Link's neutral game is passable. Not great, but passable. He still has his Z-air which is annoying and very useful. Buffs to his grab and Bombs don't hurt either. It's also worth keeping in mind that Link's Bombs have a lot of unexplored potential for creating very safe edge traps that Link can capitalize on easily. Link definitely did not get the buffs he really needed to be a strong character, but this is the most viable version of Link that Smash has produced.

Ganondorf is clearly the worst character in this game by virtue of having the unsafest neutral game that lacks a single reliable option for covering spotdodge. It's very very hard for Ganondorf to catch you when you can punish his Jab by spotdodging it and when his standing grab range is rather short. That part of his game hasn't changed at all, meaning all of his matchups are generally speaking uphill when everyone in theory has a relatively safe way to keep him out.

As I stated in the previous page though, I want to argue that Ganondorf, in spite of being the worst character in this game, is in fact a viable character, which is speculation that the overall game mechanics and relative lack of really stupid character specific exploits are solid enough to make even Ganondorf have a chance at winning games competitively.

 

[san.]

Link can cancel air dodge landing lag, arrow landings, and all aerials with bomb throw. Mix in the powerful arrow shot and up/side B of your choice, and I think Link has it alright. He can also throw and drop bombs without them exploding along with all of Brawl's item tricks minus DACIT and glide tossing.

His bombs and projectiles don't do enough damage by themselves, though, and need to be supplemented with melee attacks.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah I almost forgot, the Bomb toss landing lag exploit is pretty legit. He still needs more than that, Jab, and Z-air for midrange though. Honestly I feel like if Link actually had good throws, then he'd be a strong character. It's part of the reason why ZSS is scary in this game, because aside from the dumb stuff she has to control neutral, her throws actually lead to stuff.

 

[san.]

^Have to agree with that there. Relying too much on items for setups isn't so great unless your character naturally has advantages using them over others because of instant tossing and catching with aerials/on the ground, but luckily the buff to his bomb usage is his saving grace.

 

[Thinkaman]

Link can cancel air dodge landing lag, arrow landings, and all aerials with bomb throw.

How are these done? I've seen the videos, but can't for the life of me replicate any of them except the first... What am I missing?

 

[A2ZOMG]

How are these done? I've seen the videos, but can't for the life of me replicate any of them except the first... What am I missing?

Press Down-B?

 

[Thinkaman]

Press Down-B?

And there it is. That simple.

I've never in my life thrown a bomb or turnip by repeating the special input. Huh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And there it is. That simple.

I've never in my life thrown a bomb or turnip by repeating the special input. Huh.

That command existed in Brawl, keep in mind.

 

[Thinkaman]

That command existed in Brawl, keep in mind.

Right, it makes complete sense. I've just always used A.

 

[Shaya]

In terms of character abilities, I'm going to put it out there, but Lucario is likely the best character in this game (in the "you know kinda like Snake was seen as the best at the start of Brawl"; unbelievably bonkers at a base level - who knows if it'll stick, but I think he's a shoe in for top 5, at least without customs).
He could end up faltering in match ups, considering the amount of shines/reflectors/absorbs we have going, and custom specials have unforeseen consequences as well.

But Lucario at 100%+ is a god. An absolute god. I feel like he's been straight buffed from Brawl by being given a normalisation/foxilisation (like yoshi/bowser/etc) but also comes with the stupidest implementation of a mechanic I think I've ever seen in Aura (gliding and jump cancelled shines please, SSF2T Akuma is jealous). His weaknesses from Brawl in his recovery are basically subverted with the elongated and honestly bizarre Up-B size at mid+ percent, and his preference/strength of not dying has been heavily solidified with the game's engine.

All hail sheik and stuff yeah yeah... but... the aura.... I'm so upset. Like super upset at how dumb he is. He only lost to two characters in Brawl IMO... one due to dedede having extra strong mittens for grabbing da aura and the other due to meta knight being meta knight. Considering the amount of times that Lucarios have made M2K cry in Brawl, it really wasn't seen to me as a character which needed significant tweaking/reworking/insane buffing.

We'll see how things go, it's strange I haven't seen him beyond streams/friendlies/lolfi thus far.
I would probably take the option of handicapping myself in matches to 100%+ with Lucario (this won't ever happen, hypothetical) over giving my opponent more opportunity to win by time out, because you aren't beating this character fighting him once he's over 100%, lol; so you should just hit him to it (because he probably wants you to) and then run away. RUN AWAY AND NEVER LOOK BACK

 

[Lozjam]

I think Ganondorf isn't the worst character of the game. Yes, he is a really risky character, but when used by people like Ganondorf Brawl mains, like myself, he is going to be terrifying. His damage output is insane in this game, and he has one of the most powerful Bairs in the game. An unstaled edgeguard can kill mid-lightweights, such as Palutena, as early as around 60%. And considering that the Gerudo does a total of around 13% per hit, and his custom down b's will give him a way to approach projectile characters. I think he has potential for mid tier in the right hands.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So since I finally got the full version of the game, here are some of my impressions:

Characters I see as likely / potential top tier:

Diddy Kong: This character was buffed all around sans his bananas, of course. This overall amunts to a buff compared to his Brawl iteration imo. I've yet to notice any particular weakness for Diddy Kong, maybe his recovery can be abused but he seems EXTREMELY solid all-around. He can play the zoning and the offensive rushdown game equally well. Depending on how well his positive attributes can be abused in specific matchups he'll be either top or high tier. Considering how much people overrated him in Brawl I have to say that he's probably better this time around.

Fox: Fox was an extremely powerful and underrated character in Brawl. With silly chaingrabs being mostly gone he loses his only major weakness from Brawl. In turns he gets a MASSIVE buff on his recovery whereas his damage output and KO power remain amazing. His moves flow into each other very easily, his pressure game is just as good as it was in Brawl and his mobility will be worth a lot in the metagame. Don't know why this character is literally NEVER mentioned as a candidate for a top tier spot, Fox looks amazing.

Lucario: Ridiculous character. He lost some of his biggest weaknesses from Brawl through the new game mechanics while receiving individual buffs on his aura. Couple that with the rage mechanics and this character's KO power is NUTS. Decent low % combos and disjointed hitboxes make this character pretty awesome. His relatively low mobility and attack speed may hold him back from the very top spot there's no doubt to me that Lucario is going to be a huge threat in this game. The cooldown lag on his neutral B has been increased but the custom moves he gets for neutral special and side special look stupid good.

Sonic: His range and KO power have been buffed, he has kept all his strong selling points from Brawl and has a ridiculously powerful grab game now. His offensive options are numerous, super obnoxious to deal with and they are actually rewarding this time around. Sonic was never actually a light character as far as I know and he's definitely capable of avoiding kills pretty solidly. Coupled with rage mechanics and his improved KO powr there's almost no way that Sonic will not be up high on the tier list.

ZSS: Don't really have a lot t osay about her since she's been covered like a million times already. She's similarly versatile as Diddy Kong, her strenghts are numerous and her weaknesses are very few.

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

Hey man, did it occur to you that fighting games aren't hard to figure out? Once you've gotten down your fundamentals for one fighting game, seeing things in another is usually pretty simple. It's not hard to observe things like range of influence and relative safety and then put together the big picture of what situations a character does well in.

I mean, the main disadvantage about analyzing new games is acquiring frame data that mathematically proves what really timing specific things work.

It's also unhealthy to hide information. It's more fun when everyone understands why things work.

Fighting games aren't hard to figure out.... what do you mean by this? There are obvious things that will make a character good or bad (speed, damage, survivability, range etc), they are usually the first things people notice right away by people. However a seemingly mediocre character can end up shooting up the tier list if some tech is discovered or strategy is discovered a few months into the game's life. This happens with pretty much every fighting game.

And I never said anything about hiding information. What I meant by "hidden gem" is that often times a character is overlooked due to different reasons. Then someone will figure out they are actually really good and then all of a sudden that character goes from being barely used to one of the most frequent top 8 placers.

Tier lists are mostly determined by tournament results. With the game being out for a month it's all just speculation. You can probably accurately guess who are good characters but it will be a while before people know the matchups and really figure out who the best characters are. And like I said if everything is determined within the first few months and stays stagnant, that's not a good outlook for the game's lifespan. New tech and matchup strategies is what keeps fighting games healthy and fun to watch in the long run.

 

[Reila]

I am just hoping Villager and Bowser Jr at least mid tier (but no top tier!). Does anyone have impressions about them?

Seems like everyone wants them in except for glory online warriors who can't (won't) practice against them and don't go to tourneys anyway.

For Glory "Warriors"? Why the condescending attitude towards For Glory players? Geez.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fox: Fox was an extremely powerful and underrated character in Brawl. With silly chaingrabs being mostly gone he loses his only major weakness from Brawl. In turns he gets a MASSIVE buff on his recovery whereas his damage output and KO power remain amazing. His moves flow into each other very easily, his pressure game is just as good as it was in Brawl and his mobility will be worth a lot in the metagame. Don't know why this character is literally NEVER mentioned as a candidate for a top tier spot, Fox looks amazing.

Can he Shine Stall? I haven't seen that yet, so I need that confirmed. If he can't, then he's just decent. His lasers aren't what they used to be in this game to force people to play on his terms, and when he isn't using them, his gameplan competes with someone like Captain Falcon. And Sheik obviously.

Assuming he still can shine stall though, then yeah. I could see him being very strong competitively.

 

[Rockaphin]

I am just hoping Villager and Bowser Jr at least mid tier (but no top tier!). Does anyone have impressions about them?

For Glory "Warriors"? Why the condescending attitude towards For Glory players? Geez.

I'm no expert, but I'd say Villager would be a decent counter against Duck Hunt. I've yet to play the full game so take that with a grain of salt. But overall? I'm going to say mid-high tier. Good recovery, good edge guarding capabilities, and good KO potential. Lag is what hurts him the most, that and approaching in my opinion.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I agree Lucario was mostly buffed. Him being bonkers? Dunno, I an see a lot of characters beating him depending on how their tools work and how reliable they can kill.

Also he lost to a lot of characters in Brawl. MK, Snake, Diddy, Wario, D3, G&W, Fox, Olimar, ICs, all had an advantage on him in some shape or form. Rest were debatable but he actually lot to all of the above.

 

[Cuccu Maestro]

I like how every character is 'mid high' tier in this thread, and people won't stop posting matchups and counterpicks of characters they literally have never played. Tell me once again how the game looks so balanced, please, that statement really means a lot at this point in the meta and we all need to hear it one more time.

 

[FlacidGiraffe]

All this talk on link being buffed compared to the last installment makes me so happy.

 

[Signia]

For Glory "Warriors"? Why the condescending attitude towards For Glory players? Geez.

History. Online players are known in other communities as thinking they're hot **** because they can beat 99% of players they encounter online and think they're amazing and have a valuable opinion on offline tournaments that they do not attend. it's already happening in this community -- people thinking that online mode has any relevancy to the offline competitive scene.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

History. Online players are known in other communities as thinking they're hot **** because they can beat 99% of players they encounter online and think they're amazing and have a valuable opinion on offline tournaments that they do not attend. it's already happening in this community -- people thinking that online mode has any relevancy to the offline competitive scene.

Being fair, some of the best players have been on Wifi then moved to Offline a bit.

Heck one of the best online players was actually one of the best Peach players in Brawl hands down.

 

[Signia]

Heck one of the best online players was actually one of the best Peach players in Brawl hands down.

That's pretty shocking, considering the netcode. Maybe it didn't matter because Brawl?

 

[Thinkaman]

Ally started out by dominating the online scene in Brawl.

 

[ZombieBran]

Exceptions that prove the rule, I suppose.

 

[Shaya]

Melee-esque generation stayed with offline play, while a lot people new to Smash came in through online to offline transitions.

The only top level Brawl players I'm aware of without an online background was like.. gnes and mew2king. Majority/the rest I'm aware of them playing online sporadically/frequently, they all really loved that AiB ladder.

 

[The Real Gamer]

IMO online play is going to be an extremely critical part of Smash 4, especially for players that don't have the resources/time to regularly attend tournaments. One advantage online has is that as long as both parties have solid internet connections everyone can now play anyone, anywhere w/o the hassle of traveling.

Of course offline play will remain the dominant method of training, but online play is always better than not having anyone to play at all. I personally can't wait.

 

[Venks]

I am just hoping Villager and Bowser Jr at least mid tier (but no top tier!). Does anyone have impressions about them?

For Glory "Warriors"? Why the condescending attitude towards For Glory players? Geez.

I'm no expert, but I'd say Villager would be a decent counter against Duck Hunt. I've yet to play the full game so take that with a grain of salt. But overall? I'm going to say mid-high tier. Good recovery, good edge guarding capabilities, and good KO potential. Lag is what hurts him the most, that and approaching in my opinion.

It's hard to say what tier Bowser Jr will be, but he's a great character. An amazing projectile in the Mecha Koopa which combined with the canon ball makes for extremely good zoning. Heck all of Jr's specials are amazing and hard to punish without really good positioning. Oh and his normals are fast and hit really freakin hard. I expect a lot from this character as time progresses.

Villager I think will be high tier. The only thing keeping Villager from being top tier is a couple of bad matchups, but with how solid almost every other match up looks I'd have to put Villager as high tier. Villager has the safest approach in the game thanks to the Lloid Rocket. Villager has so many ways to take advantage of that approach. Grabbing a block and still getting the damage from the rocket, side smashing a dodge roll with possibly fatal knock back, or piling on damage with an up smash or fAir to punish jumps over the rocket.

The tree is much more solid then people realize and NEEDS to be respected. Villager also ALWAYS RECOVERS unless you knock him into the blast zone. Villager is the hardest character in the game to gimp because again you have to hit him into the blast zone or he will still recover. Perhaps someone will discover a good way to pop Villager's balloons without hitting Villager, but until that happens Villager is looking too good.

 

[Reila]

Thanks for the impressions about Villager and Jr., @ Rockaphin and @ Venks ! I am excited to play them in a couple days!

Anyways, as for the online, I think it is silly to ignore or even be "against" it. If the netcode/online is as good as the people playing the JP version claim it to be, then a LOT of people will be playing it for years straight (including me). There are no local tournaments where I live, so it is either online or nothing to me.

 

[Morbi]

It's hard to say what tier Bowser Jr will be, but he's a great character. An amazing projectile in the Mecha Koopa which combined with the canon ball makes for extremely good zoning. Heck all of Jr's specials are amazing and hard to punish without really good positioning. Oh and his normals are fast and hit really freakin hard. I expect a lot from this character as time progresses.

Villager I think will be high tier. The only thing keeping Villager from being top tier is a couple of bad matchups, but with how solid almost every other match up looks I'd have to put Villager as high tier. Villager has the safest approach in the game thanks to the Lloid Rocket. Villager has so many ways to take advantage of that approach. Grabbing a block and still getting the damage from the rocket, side smashing a dodge roll with possibly fatal knock back, or piling on damage with an up smash or fAir to punish jumps over the rocket.

The tree is much more solid then people realize and NEEDS to be respected. Villager also ALWAYS RECOVERS unless you knock him into the blast zone. Villager is the hardest character in the game to gimp because again you have to hit him into the blast zone or he will still recover. Perhaps someone will discover a good way to pop Villager's balloons without hitting Villager, but until that happens Villager is looking too good.

If people respect the tree, is it still solid?

I am just hoping Villager and Bowser Jr at least mid tier (but no top tier!). Does anyone have impressions about them?

For Glory "Warriors"? Why the condescending attitude towards For Glory players? Geez.

I do not necessarily feel as though the attitude is condescending. In the fighting game community, players who play online are typically alluded to as online warriors. There are some that are elitist about it, but it is just a name. It is not inherently condescending by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Kohak]

I really do have high hopes for the competitive scene in ssb4, both online and offline. Gameplay is at a comfortably quick pace and some of the newcomers really bring unique styles to the table. Not to mention custom movesets, it'll be fun!

I'll be maining Villager, and my overall impression is that he'll be a character worth watching out. Though lacking in reliable kill moves, players will have to keep in mind their many options to get KOs. Most of my kills actually come from off-stage gimps, which I like (or surprise axe murders). He'll be a nightmare against projectile game, and has enough quick and high priority moves (jab, dtilt, nair) that will help him contend against close combat specialist. Looking forward to learning more about this little guy!

 

[DrakeRowan]

Here's Shi-Gaming's (A Japanese equivalent to Clash Tournament) impressions on which are the best characters.

Spoiler

(Source = Click Here) [Last updated. 10/1/2014]

 

[Berserker.]

Here's Shi-Gaming's (A Japanese equivalent to Clash Tournament) lists on what they think are the best characters.

Spoiler

(Source = Click Here) [Last updated. 10/1/2014]

We really should avoid discussions for these things. Just saying. If you want my opinion though, I'm not sure about most of the D/E tier characters


Oh for my character impressions for Mega Man, it's not as bad as I expected BUT I still had to go through some difficulties. I wasn't really used with actually shooting with Neutral A, Forward A or N-air. It felt awkward at first but once I got used to it, it seemed alright. One of my friends who's also a mod ( @IsmaR ) told me ways on how to actually utilize his jab, and it really helped me get used to Mega man. Regarding his projectiles Metal blade is pretty decent. I tried out using rush then just throwing it around but it turns out I'm not really good with it. Crash bomb is lackluster but I throw it out for the sake of just hoping it actually sticks (and does not get shielded). I still don't know when to and when not to use leaf shield. His f-smash also felt weird at first but it actually ended up becoming one of my favorite moves with him (along with his jab). Oh, and his dash attack is good. Overall, he has some problems but I don't think is really really bad.

 

[Shaya]

The people shown as high/top tier in that list are... very likely there (in that ball park of top 20%). Rest of the characters in the list could be anywhere really; and I personally haven't seen Wario but I can imagine it.

Having your normals replaced with Fox' sure does make you a better character. Yoshi, Bowser, Lucario and Sonic are all creatures in Sakurai's grand Star Fox plans; hopefully the announcement of his directing of the series will be met with astute applause and excitement (</sarcasm> BUT WHAT IF HE DIRECTED F-ZERO THOUGH TO BE MORE SMASH FALCON LIKE #WINNING [extremely fast racing but you get out of your car and punch people, all it needs is an araara~ large bosomed female character and we're set for printing $$$ and finally a second f-zero character in the next smash and a third one in blood-falcon])

As long as people don't take the list with any serious merit and don't derail this thread based on the perception that it is universally right / worth basing all future thought on, I think it'll be a little okay. My main issue with "tier list" discussion is "my opinion > your opinion" and "Here's my LIST I JUST MADE UP" x5000; both of which I'll burn to the ground on sight with extreme prejudice.

 

[deepseadiva]

So many varied and crazy opinions.

Can't wait to reference these in a year. All of this is so HYPE

 

[DrakeRowan]

We really should avoid discussions for these things. Just saying. If you want my opinion though, I'm not sure about most of the D/E tier characters

As long as anyone doesn't take the list seriously, it'll be fine.

As soon as anyone whines about it though, I'm erasing the link.

 

[Berserker.]

As long as anyone doesn't take the list seriously, it'll be fine.

As soon as anyone whines about it though, I'm erasing the link.

As long as people don't take the list with any serious merit and don't derail this thread based on the perception that it is universally right / worth basing all future thought on, I think it'll be a little okay. My main issue with "tier list" discussion is "my opinion > your opinion" and "Here's my LIST I JUST MADE UP" x5000; both of which I'll burn to the ground on sight with extreme prejudice.

Alrighty then

IMO online play is going to be an extremely critical part of Smash 4, especially for players that don't have the resources/time to regularly attend tournaments. One advantage online has is that as long as both parties have solid internet connections everyone can now play anyone, anywhere w/o the hassle of traveling.

Of course offline play will remain the dominant method of training, but online play is always better than not having anyone to play at all. I personally can't wait.

This

I really want to go to tournaments and all but I can't for the most part. It's the least and the best I'll get for trying to test my skill.

 

[Shaya]

So here's my run down of Marth (and in part Lucina).

The winning formula is still there. A mix of jack of all trades / option rich design with a very balanced and stable risk/reward pattern.
How Marth has been ultimately nerfed (in a way that I'm not seeing as a general game rebalance) was Forward Air and his Grab Game.
Most speedy aerials in the game got hit, and Marth had neutral air and uair landing lag doubled in line with [mostly] everyone else. Back air landing lag was left untouched from Brawl though and this honestly leans towards me seeing this as a pretty hefty buff to the move.

Forward air's landing lag has been close to tripled, a much steeper culling than you would expect. As a bread and butter move it's coming out slower by a frame or two and damage for it was taken back on tipper (13% -> 10%). The ramifications are widespread.

For Marth, grab was always paramount to his success as he achieved guaranteed set ups (usually aerials) for him to amass momentum. Down throw in Smash 4 is not a fantastic throw option.

Due to these two things, I believe his "rewards" have been hit hard, and there are new risks in his choices, especially in the air. A top tier character in Brawl, I feel Sakurai's balance choices will disallow him from achieving a similar stature. Likely still be able to tout a solid match up spread, not particularly losing to anyone/anything, he will be however working harder than he ever has before to achieve success.

--

Marth's multihit moves (dancing blade and neutral air) do not successfully combo between tippered hits with good DI/Vectoring and this is less apparent on Lucina, this "consistency" issue could give reason for a shift in player choice. But otherwise Marth has superior capabilities to Lucina in nearly every way, as their differences seem to be really rather nonexistent in the grand scheme of things (both characters will always want to space) and hence will benefit the one getting more for it.

Another thing, I think that Lucina is mini-pixels shorter in reach than Marth. Her jab and forward smash were a lot more particular for hitting people on Battlefield platforms in comparison to Marth, beyond that I'm not certain on anything else and it could just be some sort of "height" thing (as those moves hitting people on the platform was already particular spacing enough).

Their custom specials allow a lot of possibilities and variations that could overcome shortfalls in Marth's kit. A "gap" closer in the shield breaker could give us an amazing long range rushdown to punish rolls and many options out of it, and the other alternative gives us such an amazing poke buff that it could allow us the zoning tool we need to shrug off our shortfalls. There's no doubt that shieldbreaker was buffed this game, I wish it was possible to have all three of their capabilities split between his moveset [variations] more, as he could really enjoy them all Counter may be a lot more potent than I give it credit for.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Japanese tier lists tend to be based almost exclusively on tournament results as far as I can tell. At least that's the way it used to be for Brawl. Since there are only two major regions within Japan [Osaka/Kansai and Tokyo/Kantou] these tier lists are very polarized towards the characters their top players are successful with. In 2010 the "official" japanese Brawl tier list had Ice Climbers in D-Tier and Pit as the 5th best character because Kakera only about started to do well with ICs whereas Pit had a lot of top placings through Masashi and Earth. Even the fact that lain had placed 3rd at Apex with ICs wasn't recognized in their tier lists.

As far as that Smash 4 Tier list is concerned it's pretty clear that the characters who are up high will remain up high. Whether Sheik will actually be the best character in the game remains to be seen - I really doubt it. The only character I find really misplaced is Diddy Kong, whom I think should be very high on the list. But from the 5 top characters I had talked about earler, Japan has 4 of them in A- or B-Tier
The rest of that list is an approximation and a very faint one at best. Palutena as dead last seems like an exaggeration. Shulk and Falco are suspicioulsy low, Kirby also seems to be a bit low. On the other hand Charizard, Mario and Villager seem higher than they should be imo.