Character Competitive Impressions

[Funkermonster]

Wasn't Olimar mid tier in Brawl at first and Sonic was Low Tier? Then they got significant boosts up in the tier list and are now Top and Mid Tier respectively as new things about them were discovered.

While I can personally see Mac becoming high tier, I argue that those videos by themselves do not prove that he will be top tier considering how young the game is, its still only been out for about 3 weeks. Metagames take months to form and it could take a year or more just for the game's first tier lists to come out, and even then don't expect to be the same as tier lists after 3 or 4 ears.

 

[Tristan_win]

Little Mac will be a good character and in good hands he can be a top character, want to see my argument? you just need to see the shockwave 2 tournament:

Bwett (Little Mac) vs Em (Villager/Bowser)
- Winners Bracket

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBk3uCphosA&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=2

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs AeroLink (Palutena) -
Winners Semis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N74JlkuLoVs&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=8

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs Lunchables (Toon
Link) - Winners Bracket

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDPcXIH70Kk&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=11

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs TLOC Denti (Sheik) -
Winners Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3Lhi_0LcTY&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=16

Won.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs Pwing (Villager) -
Losers Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb0d6P6UrGk&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&index=17

WON. That final battle.... it's so satisfying to see Litlle Mac winning in a battle with all against him, a projectile camper that can also camp him from below and with a god recovery so he doesn't have to worry about follow little mac off stage and all this in a platform moving stage, a "suicide" for almost every Little Mac, and yet, he won. And if it wasn't because that counter killed him, he would of win with advantage.

Bwett (Little Mac) vs TLOC Denti (Sheik) -
Grand Finals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkNsb8qmZak&list=PLFXOgPi6_N5RyZ3n6zQGiRtmKKiZ4ZhcP&inde

Yeah, he loosed against Sheik (Sheik plays to melee in this smash) but he got to the Grand Finals of a tournament filled with compettitive players, a strong second place. I can't see a character that's able to do all this getting any lower than high tier.

Also if you want to see how Little mac handles characters with good aerials here you go:

Lil Mac vs Bowser Jr
http://youtu.be/GLpi1pmBO2s

Lil Mac vs Jigglypuff
http://youtu.be/_t9lQLbXzIY

And this one just because it was the same player.

Lil Mac vs Ganondorf
http://youtu.be/dSEdPb2qgFI



A little stressed out of people saying his competitive garbage...

So Little Mac is Good, just wanted to point that out.

Little Mac does have very strong tools but there's two things to consider while your watching Bwett play.

1. He has had a abundance of time with the game and has been playing the hell out of it while being clearly a noteworthy player.

2. Little Mac is a completely new type of character to fight and people just don't know how to fight him yet.

Right now Little Mac looks fantastic but when you have players of a higher tier beat up lesser one's with a character they don't know how to fight then of course he's going to look amazing. Just like for Sheik I'm waiting a month or two before I'll really consider her top tier and for little mac I'm giving the same treatment. Although I will say I highly doubt he will ever fall down into mid tier but he could be the guard at the gate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hmm anyone can give an impression of Lucario haven't seem him being used often
Not really impressed by his customs tho

His vanilla seem good tho ^^

Mixed feelings from what I have watched on how good or bad he is.

His Aura overall is a straight up buff to him, its just his other changes to his moves that are where the "?" is. Also how he can fair against the cast who will be strong.

His KO power scales a lot faster than before and what scales isn't a linear path like Brawl was, everything's scaling with aura is set differently on each move.

No clue on specials, only one I am certain on is his downB 3 which is the mini stun. That one I think isn't very good, but maybe it has a use somewhere. But I think it;s way too niche in that area.

 

[Nat Goméz]

Well, while this videos by themselves don't show Little Mac to top tier it at least shows he has the potential to be a good character.
And there were people that did know how to fight him, like Pwing playing Villager always safe camping him with his Lloyd, his tree, his fair, attacking him from below and trying to grab every time he had a chance, and in moving platforms it's a really good strategy against Mac but that doesn't mean you can camp him the howl battle and he will insta-loose.

His weaknees can also be by passed by playing safe, countering attacks from above with his usmash, out-ranging ground approaches with his ftilt that's safe on block, or with his speed dodging all the attacks and punishing every frame of lag you see from your opponent.

Yeah his weakness are exploitable, but you can also see Little Mac's perfomance against a good Zero Suit Samus player that knows how to combo and do nice follow ups just at the beginning of this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fHe5jX4JMw

I only do this because I'm a little tired of people saying that my main favorite character -that actually has potential- won't have any chance in competitive and will be trash tier.

Edit: And lets not talk about how in a world that blastzones are so wide and people survive to crazy percents, a charged usmash koed Zero suit samus in 55%

 

[TTTTTsd]

Little Mac has a lot of potential but not as an offensive rushdown character like a lot of people thought he would be. Mac's grounded punish game is INSANE and you'd be crazy to not use him in a pseudo spacing way. Keep center stage or keep in control, don't press offensively too much, stay just in range, and be smart. Really it's like playing Punch Out, but in Smash.

Also re-echoing my thoughts on Mario and Doc, haven't played yet(FOUR MORE DAYS) but I think they'll be safe in the mid tiers. I can't see Mario dipping low again, this game's mechanics benefit him a good deal even outside of combos. He's safer on hit in this game, so while his damage is nerfed, his followups can be a bit more creative and finite. Definite mid tier(as it should be!) D-Throw into Utilt is ALRIGHT, it's better against larger/heavier characters cause they CAN'T jump out either due to hitboxes or hitstun, but smaller characters will probably be more of a problem. It'll likely require D-Throw into Utilt or Uair instead, which will be a lot easier when we get this thing on WiiU which is where I imagine a lot more stuff with Mario will come out.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I know this is a change of subject for what this thread is meant to discuss but I don't feel it deserves it's own thread.

Anyways I've watch what I believe to be a good amount of smash 4 now and I just realize something... almost no one is recovery high. Yes recoveries are better on the entire case but still people are recovery for the most part at a reasonable height. Has anyone else notice this, has the seemly increase falling speed on the entire cast made recovery overall weaker or have people just not gotten use to the game yet?

There's less incentive to recover high right now given the relative safety of the new ledge mechanics. If mixups can get you to the ledge safely then going high is potentially an inferior option unless you've got a ton of jumps/can act out of your up-b and can cover yourself on the way down.

 

[MegaSerperior]

Anyone got any impressions of how well Fox stacks up in this metagame? I haven't been able to see much of him, but I've heard a lot of different things and was wondering what people here thought.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's less incentive to recover high right now given the relative safety of the new ledge mechanics. If mixups can get you to the ledge safely then going high is potentially an inferior option unless you've got a ton of jumps/can act out of your up-b and can cover yourself on the way down.

Ganondorf thinks otherwise.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm pretty sure that's not guaranteed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm pretty sure that's not guaranteed.

It's 100% guaranteed with the correct timing. You get a REALLY massive frame advantage for perfect edge stealing. I'm guessing max something like 30 frames. Furthermore by timing it correctly, they literally are not allowed to get up from the edge before they get booted from it.

 

[Yonder]

If I had to pick a worst character right now I'd have to go with Luigi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW99xMuPSKY

I'm always posting that video to defend Luigi , but as a Luigi main who has watched tons of videos and mains him in every game, he is much better in Smash 4. So what, he lost a little kill power [everyone did] in exchange for speed buffs [both in the air and ground], actual combos, [evident in video], A much more effective Dair spike, which makes offstage kills given his floaty nature way easier. Recovery is a bit weaker, but if customs are allowed, easily one of the bests. He's a better version of Brawl Luigi, and has mostly the same problems with range still.

So I think he's a middle of the mid tier. Why people keep putting a massive gap between him and Mario in this game i'll never understand. That gap was present only in n64 smash, the only game Luigi has bad in.

Smash 4? Best Luigi yet.

Sorry to bandwagon with everyone else, but I still think the worst character is Mega Man. He's just not an effective zoner to me. Fun, but not great.

 

[mimgrim]

Sorry to bandwagon with everyone else, but I still think the worst character is Mega Man. He's just not an effective zoner to me. Fun, but not great.

That's because he isn't a zoning character. He's a mid-range fighter.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

That's because he isn't a zoning character. He's a mid-range fighter.

Even his mid-range is weak. None of his tilts are very good at all, and although his aerials are superb they don't make up for his poor, poor land neutrals. His specials aren't that great either.

 

[mimgrim]

Even his mid-range is weak. None of his tilts are very good at all, and although his aerials are superb they don't make up for his poor, poor land neutrals. His specials aren't that great either.

-respect the opponents space
-Space out the opponent with Jab/Fitlt/Nair and Fair while occasionally sending out a Sticky Bomb and once in while using other moves
-Kill with Bair

Mor effective then you might think. He isn't an outstanding character by any means, but he far better then people claim him to be. The people calling him bad aren't playing him right.

Same concept with Little Mac really. The people calling him bad are playing him badly or watching people play him badly.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

-respect the opponents space
-Space out the opponent with Jab/Fitlt/Nair and Fair while occasionally sending out a Sticky Bomb and once in while using other moves
-Kill with Bair

Mor effective then you might think. He isn't an outstanding character by any means, but he far better then people claim him to be. The people calling him bad aren't playing him right.

Same concept with Little Mac really. The people calling him bad are playing him badly or watching people play him badly.

While I agree with him not being as terrible as everyone's making him out to be (Link's the worst in the game IMO, which as he's still decent says a lot about game balance!), I don't agree with your suggestion for zoning the opponent. There are a lot of quick characters and characters with counters/shields that screw Megaman's projectiles completely, and his Jab/SideTilts/Nair are literally the most pathetic in the game. Even Pichu had better neutrals. His Sticky Bomb is also weak because of its slow travel speed and slow animation, allowing the enemy plenty of time to read and dodge the attack. Even if they do get caught, Megaman's dash is comparatively sluggish and most characters catch up to him easily, allowing them to pass on the bomb to him.

I won't argue with his aerials though. Only his nair is weak, the rest are really, REALLY good. That bair is an edgeguarding beast.

 

[mimgrim]

Mega Man's pellets are actually decent in what they serve. They only go mid-range and have very little hit stun but they serve their purpose surprisingly well. To create a mid range wall. They key to them is how lagless they are, you're able to act of a single shot extremely fast, which mean the little hitstun they give is just enough to allow Mega Man to position himself better. In a vacuum they seem bad, especially compared to other projectiles. However they compliments Mega Man's playstyle, which I reiterate is not zoning, well.

 

[Lozjam]

I have a question. I plan on maining Link, Ganondorf(my brawl mains) and Shulk. Is this a good idea? Do I have enough matchup coverage in competitive play? Are these characters viable enough for competitive play?

 

[Noa.]

The game hasn't come out yet in the states so it's difficult to tell. Personally I don't think Ganondorf or Link will be that strong. Shulk seems somewhat decent.

At the end of the day you should play who you like and only switch mains if you feel like your character is holding you back. Maybe all of those characters are amazing or maybe they're all trash but you should at least give them a try.

 

[Shaya]

Way too early to ask that question, we don't even know what match ups are at all yet, not enough time to explore.

On a variability in characters critique, you lack a character with any rushdown capabilities or ability to handle it. I think all three characters may lose to the likes of Sheik and potentially some of the other heavy weights.

 

[Lozjam]

On a variability in characters critique, you lack a character with any rushdown capabilities or ability to handle it. I think all three characters may lose to the likes of Sheik and potentially some of the other heavy weights.

This was exactly what I am looking for. Not tiers or anything, I just wanted to know what I lack. Do you think having a very risky but rewarding character, a midrange fighter, and a stance fighter is enough of a reward? If not, who else do you think I should be looking at? I'm pretty good with Ness, and Robin looks to be about my playstyle. Or I think I may be pretty good with Little Mac due to my experience with Ganondorf.

 

[Shaya]

Little Mac is a glass cannon rushdown character. Ness seems to be a particular jack of all trades-win-win type of character without super weaknesses. Robin seems to be completely solid as a zoner.

 

[Gam3rALO]

IMO, all characters in this game are viable right now. (Great change from Melee and Brawl).

This is going to make tourneys more versatile than Melee tourneys.

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

Agreed with Gam3r. There isn't a single character in this game (except Pikachu, cough cough) that I haven't seen played strongly yet.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"More versatile results than Melee tourneys?" Define versatility, 'cause ten to twelve different characters taking the top ten spots fairly consistently is pretty versatile by my reckoning, especially for a fighter as aged as Melee.

There will be a pecking order in Smash 4. Things are kind of in flux right now. The question is how narrow the gap really is between the characters after things are settled (rulesets, tech discovery, meta, etc.).

Smooth Criminal

 

[Gam3rALO]

"More versatile results than Melee tourneys?" Define versatility, 'cause ten to twelve different characters taking the top ten spots fairly consistently is pretty versatile by my reckoning, especially for a fighter as aged as Melee.

There will be a pecking order in Smash 4. Things are kind of in flux right now. The question is how narrow the gap really is between the characters after things are settled (rulesets, tech discovery, meta, etc.).

Smooth Criminal

I mean smash 4 is balanced in all characters pretty much. Melee had a small amount of the roster viable. Yes we will see, in the future how many characters are viable. But it will for sure be more than melee. So many unique characters in this game.

 

[Signia]

Wowee was I wrong about Palutena, she looks like god(dess) tier with the right custom moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd8_uHwl6NM&list=PL-vQf5rVyPXBqMLvjBS8Pma0ZIC_32eG9&index=47

Samus is another character that gets a huge boost from custom moves. I would never consider using her in the default form, but the slow projectile zoning from her custom moves is beautiful.

Lookin like super waifu bros with these god tier ******* Rosalina, Sheik, Palutena, and ZSS.

 

[Gam3rALO]

Wowee was I wrong about Palutena, she looks like god(dess) tier with the right custom moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zd8_uHwl6NM&list=PL-vQf5rVyPXBqMLvjBS8Pma0ZIC_32eG9&index=47

Samus is another character that gets a huge boost from custom moves. I would never consider using her in the default form, but the slow projectile zoning from her custom moves is beautiful.

The question is: Will custom moves be legal in tourneys? I am indifferent on this matter.

 

[Thinkaman]

The question is: Will custom moves be legal in tourneys? I am indifferent on this matter.

The community, especially TOs, have given a resounding but tentative "yes."

 

[Signia]

Seems like everyone wants them in except for glory online warriors who can't (won't) practice against them and don't go to tourneys anyway.

 

[Noa.]

Yeah the only thing holding back custom moves from competitive play is the ease of unlocking all of them for a Wii U copy. We'll see how easy it turns out being.

 

[Paul the Octopus]

I mean smash 4 is balanced in all characters pretty much. Melee had a small amount of the roster viable. Yes we will see, in the future how many characters are viable. But it will for sure be more than melee. So many unique characters in this game.

You must be kidding.

Melee is 14 years old and the super mature SSBM meta is in no way comparable to the infantile meta of smash 4. Every game starts with apparent balance, and the list of competitive characters gets narrowed down over time. It's far too early to conclude the smash 4 is balanced.

It could be, but it could be horribly broken too.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Not that you're wrong, but I wouldn't completely discredit the current consensus for SSB4 being too young. Melee is what birthed the whole competitive scene, and with those 14 years of experience comes a greater general understanding of what makes things "click" in any Smash game. I'd assume we know more about Smash 4 now than we did about Melee a couple weeks after it came out in Japan.

 

[Gam3rALO]

Not that you're wrong, but I wouldn't completely discredit the current consensus for SSB4 being too young. Melee is what birthed the whole competitive scene, and with those 14 years of experience comes a greater general understanding of what makes things "click" in any Smash game. I'd assume we know more about Smash 4 now than we did about Melee a couple weeks after it came out in Japan.

I agree. Now the best smashers know what to look for and every (even melee) tourney players have already said this game is the most balanced, that they know of. Only 2 weeks, but I am sure the experienced smashers can pick up on smash 4 this quickly.

Only time will tell

 

[CitizenSNIPS]

Not that you're wrong, but I wouldn't completely discredit the current consensus for SSB4 being too young. Melee is what birthed the whole competitive scene, and with those 14 years of experience comes a greater general understanding of what makes things "click" in any Smash game. I'd assume we know more about Smash 4 now than we did about Melee a couple weeks after it came out in Japan.

The game hasn't been out for a month yet. While finding tech may be easier and getting a feel for the game is easier, a lot of the matchups at this point are likely unknown. People are trying out different characters and might drop them if they don't like them quickly, and while other gimmicky characters might seem really good but end up being mediocre. It's really impossible to say how balanced it is right now. The good sign is that there is no obvious broken character.

Actually it would be a bad sign if all of this stuff is figured out within the first few months of the game. It's important to have some characters remain hidden gems until later in the game's life, or some other tech to be discovered that could drastically improve some characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The game hasn't been out for a month yet. While finding tech may be easier and getting a feel for the game is easier, a lot of the matchups at this point are likely unknown. People are trying out different characters and might drop them if they don't like them quickly, and while other gimmicky characters might seem really good but end up being mediocre. It's really impossible to say how balanced it is right now. The good sign is that there is no obvious broken character.

Actually it would be a bad sign if all of this stuff is figured out within the first few months of the game. It's important to have some characters remain hidden gems until later in the game's life, or some other tech to be discovered that could drastically improve some characters.

Hey man, did it occur to you that fighting games aren't hard to figure out? Once you've gotten down your fundamentals for one fighting game, seeing things in another is usually pretty simple. It's not hard to observe things like range of influence and relative safety and then put together the big picture of what situations a character does well in.

I mean, the main disadvantage about analyzing new games is acquiring frame data that mathematically proves what really timing specific things work.

It's also unhealthy to hide information. It's more fun when everyone understands why things work.

 

[ZombieBran]

So Zelda. I've read about FW here and in the Zelda board and I've also read that several (or just Nairo?) Zeldas have been doing well in early tournaments.

But honest opinions; how is Zelda looking? Do you think she's just doing well because the game is new, as in Melee/Brawl? Or are you guys more optimistic? And what exactly can the Phantom do? I've read conflicting reports. Some say it is near useless.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So Zelda. I've read about FW here and in the Zelda board and I've also read that several (or just Nairo?) Zeldas have been doing well in early tournaments.

But honest opinions; how is Zelda looking? Do you think she's just doing well because the game is new, as in Melee/Brawl? Or are you guys more optimistic?

Zelda probably has a hard time against characters who can get past her defensive game easily. So basically, either rushdown or blatantly superior footsies, meaning characters like Marth, ZSS, Sheik, and Little Mac are uphill battles for her.

That being said, this iteration of Zelda is easily the most viable version. Grab has been standardized, Jab got a lot faster, Up-B is a kill move, and general ledge and landing mechanics drastically help her gameplan.

 

[ZombieBran]

Oh yeah, the fact that she no longer grabs on the second extension of her arms is a huge buff.

I'm really worried about the fast small characters. Meta Knight, Olimar, Ness, and indeed Little Mac.

 

[Yonder]

Zelda has basically been receiving the same treatment as Luigi in this game: Obviously buffed, yet regarded as "low tier" anyways. .

Which makes me wonder which characters that are being called "top and high tier" are in reality, the real mid and low tiers...

I can't wait to contribute some input of sustenance in 3 days!

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Zelda clearly has it better than Luigi because she has stronger footsies, and is both safer and more reliable at creating land trap situations that can kill. Especially considering Zelda's recovery is no longer below average, and that her Up-B is also a good escape for resetting the situation to neutral. Zelda hits hard, and survives relatively long. Neutral game is still difficult due to low mobility, but decent footsies can compensate.

Luigi can rack damage a bit faster, but many of his best KO options hinge on powershielding.