Character Competitive Impressions

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Eh, this is most definitely not the place to be asking that. I'd go to the character specific forums if you want answers to those questions.

I've had some success with the Kirby boards heya @GrnFzzTgr ! But there's definitely some interesting things here. Thanks though!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I contrasted her to Sheik (could be a bad habit) and felt that she's still mostly playing a spacing game, even with the likes of paralyzer.

I compare them a lot too because they do have something in common, for sure. If Sheik is Yun from SF4, ZSS is Yang. She has all the moves you need to rush down, but they are less reliable due to her jump arcs/active frames and in many cases she needs to just back off and go back to playing footsies at mid range, which she does better than Sheik. But she doesn't have a host of disjointed hitboxes that she can use for mid-range spacing either. Her spacing is more akin to Samus' (zair/paralyzer) than to Marth or MK or even Jigglypuff. In Brawl, I think calling her a mid-range precision character would have been spot on. In smash 4 I don't think she can get away with that playstyle anymore because of the nerfs to up air and side-b.

I think either definition is fine. I don't mind that interpretation very much, just putting my viewpoint out there.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Had some very fun matchs playing Palutena Vs Rosaluma last night.

I mostly played Auto Reticle, Super Speed, Jump Glide, and Light Weight. He stuck with defaults minus Shooting Star Bit.

It was a really cool game dynamic. Rosaluma usually relies on the heavy zoning Luma provides, and the projectile game Shooting Star Bit amplifies that. However, I had no problems on the approach.

If Rosa keeps here distance and tries camp, Jump Glide arches over her projectile and Luma in general. Super speed cuts through luma but is disrupted by the star bit, though you can jump cancel it too. Having Lightweight up usually makes this unecessary as you can hop all the way across most stages avoiding zoning. And yes, the infinite Lightweight buff was SUPER relevant. Every time I knock them away/off stage, I could ALWAY pursue them to the point where they are an hourglass offstage and (attempt to) finish the job. And I often did, killing before well before 100%. (Uair and Bair 4evar!)

I think Rosa's best options in the match up where to Short Hop Star Bit to try to get it at Palutena's (Tall) Head height to better disrupt my air options. While that opened thing up the dash of super speed a bit, Rosa can play a solid defense game if she is patient and keeps Luma close. In general keeping Luma close in this matchup felt essential, as it was never a question of IF I would be able to approach. Wave bouncing back with Auto Reticle after super speeding through them was fun, too.

As Palutena, you will be able to punish almost any kind commitment or if they get separated. This match up felt refreshingly even (after struggling with Pit still, though it not as bad as I first thought.) I'm looking forward to even tighter controls on a GC controller, which is desperately need for Palutena's game. She has nowhere to go but up, and I don't see the matchup ever being worse for the Goddess of Light.

 

[mimgrim]

Zone Breaking / Rush Down Class:

Usually excelling at everything, having means of ignoring or negating zoning. Mobility seems to be mostly staple to their abilities. The CQC creation does clear things up a bit, although these people tend to have amazing CQC options, holy crap. At the very least they tend not to get huge rewards from single hits, but that doesn't matter, they just keep hitting you! Could be an overloaded class; ness/falco are kinda slow, pika/sheik can out camp even the long-range characters, and diddy is constantly throwing **** at you. gah.

I'm curious to hear why you put Palutena in this section. I think I have an idea of why you do, mostly the bursts of mobility she has right? I also presume she is more in the zone breaking part then in the rush down part. But I'm not entirely sure she fits here that well, personally think she might be better in your "Mid range spacing/precision" section.

 

[Rockaphin]

If I had to pick the top five characters(no order):

Also, I keep hearing that Counter Tree is nasty. However, I've yet to see it in action. Any good videos out there or something? Or are we mostly assuming?

 

[Lenus Altair]

I'm curious to hear why you put Palutena in this section. I think I have an idea of why you do, mostly the bursts of mobility she has right? I also presume she is more in the zone breaking part then in the rush down part. But I'm not entirely sure she fits here that well, personally think she might be better in your "Mid range spacing/precision" section.

Well, as you can infer by my post on the Pat/Rosa matchup, I certainly play her as more of a rushdown then anything else. That's not to say there arn't other options but it might be her best atm.

 

[Oilpath99]

My tier list right now.

Top


High


High Mid


Mid


Low Mid


Low


Bottom

 

[SonicZeroX]

My tier list right now.
Bottom

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This literally made me laugh out loud. It's a good thing I'm alone in the house right now.

 

[Thinkaman]

If I had to pick the top five characters(no order):

Care to talk about Falcon?

Also, I keep hearing that Counter Tree is nasty. However, I've yet to see it in action. Any good videos out there or something? Or are we mostly assuming?

I don't have any videos, but I can confirm that it's absolutely a massive deal.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I agree that Speedy Star Bit is amazing, but it isn't quite old Falco laser. It feels overwhelming at first, but has some important limitations that make the move way more manageable with experience.

• If Rosalina uses it in the air, Luma sticks in place and is momentarily separated. Aerial repeat use is more limited that similar laser-style projectiles.
• Reflecting the star bit always hits Luma as a result of that too. This is not true for similar projectiles done in the air.
• It's not as fast as similar moves (in any regard), though the damage (5/4%) is quite good.
• When Luma is separated, the coverage and stage control of the move becomes way worse.
• Rosalina can't use at all it if Luma is in tumble or dead.

Luma Warp is imo better than Luma Shot, but isn't amazing. It tends to get predictable, and does trivial damage--the combos out of it aren't reliable/consistent in my experience. Additionally, it tends to be a relatively risky separation. Luma is almost always vulnerable to being punted with an aerial out of Warp; it still must be used responsibly.

Characters that get better customs for dealing with Rosalina, often specifically Luma:
Fast Fireball outspams Speedy Star Bit, which he can safely reflect anyway. Explosive Jump Punch is probably scary for Rosalina, she dies vertically very easily.
Bouncing Fireball gives him a reasonable harassment approach for Luma, and his Tornado. Clothesline Tornado could hypothetically be taken as a Luma killer.
Side-b options might be better, but I strongly doubt this is a bad matchup for her to begin with.
So there's this move called Dash Claw...
Lick is pretty great against Luma, especially since Egg Lay isn't as good. Eggs also win trades with Speedy Star Bit.
Koopa Drift (kart 2) and Big Mechakoopas destroy Luma. Hard. Piercing Cannon might be a plus too, but I can actually see him taking the default as a Luma killer too.
Benefits little, but he does appreciate the faster bike to close the distance and recover that much better. Due to his aerial speed, he doesn't care as much about Speedy Star Bit as most.
Short-Order Chef outspams Speedy Star Bit, which is a 42% (raw) Bucket anyway...
Kong Cyclone melts Luma.
Battering Banana Peel is way more effective if it hits Luma; normal Bananas do essentially nothing!
Not sure if Power Bow would actually work in this matchup, but if it hits it EASILY OHKOs Luma. Piercing Arrows would also be better than the default here. Ripping Boomerang is great against Luma. Regular Boomerang probably better than default too. Also, he can hyrule shield Speedy Star Bit.
Has a reflector for Speedy Star Bit, and all forms of Din's Fire are more viable traps on Luma than real characters. (No good in neutral though, naturally.) All forms of Phantom wreck Luma as well. Even if she chooses use defaults, Zelda is not bothered by Rosalina's upgrades in the slightest.
I can't decide if Sheik would actually take Piercing Needles. Either way, needles still beat Speedy Star Bit, even if it almost events the score. Her default grenade is poor against Luma; both the others are really good though. Pisces (down 3, the long kick) might also be better in this matchup; Bouncing Fish normally only hits Luma or Rosalina, but Pisces tends to hit both.
Holy crap. Wizard's Dropkick is incredible and beats Speedy Star Bit. His two command grabs, which Luma can punish, can be replaced by attacks that DESTROY Luma. Sheesh, even Warlock Blade stands a chance at actually hitting Luma!
Not unlike Link, many of his disruptive projectile alternatives are a serious anti-Luma boon. Also, hyrule shield.
While Speedy Star Bit is a pain for her, she more than ups the ante with her superior missile upgrades. Samus loves customs.
Plasma Dash (side-b 2) is way more effective against Luma on hit than Plasma Whip, but probably not worth it. (Way less safe) However, Whip Lash is still more effective, and a reasonable option. Shooting Star Kick hits both targets better and might be interesting, but I'm also skeptical. Regardless, ZSS's speed and pressure mitigate a lot of the value of Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp.
Not only has a reflector to marginalize Speedy Star Bit (and side-b!), but with customs can take a way stronger one. Can take Piercing Arrow to deal with Luma, but I'm not sure it's worth it. If not, Guiding Arrow is pretty great and a better option for the context.
LOL. Nevermind Reflect Barrier, Super Speed might be the best anti-Luma move in the game. Explosive Flame is good too. Lightweight is also really good in this matchup.
Assault Dash is very valuable in this matchup.
Close Combat!!!!!
So Thoron+ is amazing against Luma (and Rosalina in general), but Speedy Star Bit can make it hard to charge. He might opt for Speed Thunder instead if he proves to have difficulty with Luma. However, Arcfire is already a decen anti-Luma move, and Arcfire+ (normally a poor choice) is an INCREDIBLE anti-Luma move that trades favorably with Speedy Star Bit.
Copied Luma Shot is neat and seems to to trade favorably with Speedy Star Bit for what it's worth.
Dedede Storm (neutral 2, the one with the repeating hitboxes) destroys Luma, often OHKOs. Good thing too, he hates Speedy Star Bit and Luma ruins Gordos...
MK's main custom upgrade in general is Tornado 3 as a strong, moderate-risk vertical kill option. This is crucial against Rosalina! (Also, it will always kill Luma, which is a great consolation prize if it is blocked.) High-Speed Drill is also the superior anti-Luma side-b.
Might consider Dash Counter to deal with Speedy Star Bit.
Has a reflector to marginalize Speedy Star Bit, has the option to take a stronger (slower) one, and Twisting Fox (up 3) is a decent anti-Luma move.
Void Reflector is amazing in general, and fantastic at killing Luma; who cares about reflecting star bits when you can do that! (It still blocks them)
Discharge is probably a really good anti-Luma move.
Dragon Rush is one of the best anti-Luma moves in the game. Rising Cyclone is a powerful vertical kill move, great against Rosalina.
Ensnaring Aura Sphere is so much better against Luma. The long range Force Palm is probably good too.
Doesn't care much about Speedy Star Bit or Luma Warp. Hyper Voice is trivially better than Sing, which is even more useless against Rosalina than ever before. (Hyper Voice actually kills Luma quite well!) Rollout is very poor because of Luma, so this is the only matchup where Jigglypuff should take Relentless Rollout. Pound Blitz is also possibly the superior option in this matchup.
Rosalina is huge and floaty; this makes Zig-Zag Can amazing. Giant Gunman totally blocks Star Bits.
Better options for spamming against Speedy Star Bit, and I recall one of the side-bs being a superior anti-Luma move? Reflects are good too...
He can just absorb Speedy Star Bits, and all 3 PK Fires are uniquely great against Luma in their own way. The long-lasting one traps Luma for the entire duration, dooming it.
Falcon Dash Punch, sort of like Warlock Blade is a lulzy and effective-yet-dubious anti-Luma nuclear option. Either custom Raptor Boost is important here, because the normal one cannot hit through Luma; both the armor/power of 2 or aerial mobility of 3 are welcome tools in this matchup. Default Falcon Kick is best though, as it's a good anti-Luma move.
Everyone knows Timber Counter is crazy good. Not as amazing against Rosalina as many, but still good. And of course, Pocket beats Speedy Star Bit, unlike the normal star bits!
Tackle Pikmin Throw is crucial for coping with Luma.
JUMBO HOOP, DESTROYER OF WORLDS LUMA.
Same as Mario, but might consider Clothesline Tornado for annihilating Luma.
If Speedy Star Bits prove really problematic, he can always take Dash Vision. But otherwise, Power Vision is such a huge upgrade on its own, and punts Luma pretty far. Armored Back Slash is the ultimate counter for separated Luma attacking you in the middle.
No idea if his alternate fruit sets are better in the matchup; so hard to analyze. His Enticing Power Pellet kills Luma really easily, but I dunno if he'd actually take that.
Skull Barrier is a functional reflector for Speedy Star Bit. Ice Slasher might be worth taking, but YMMV.
Hammer Spin Dash didn't stop being crazy good or anything. It also helps avoid/beat Speedy Star Bit.
Up-b 3i just great against Rosalina in general. This other custom options are way improved at killing Luma too, lots of the meaty multi-hit stuff that Luma hates.
Customs let him take a reflector--also has superior anti-Luma moves.
Has a reflector and decent anti-Luma tools, get way better with customs anyway. (Though less against Rosalina than most, ironically.)


So yeah, those are the characters that benefit from having customs enabled against Rosalina in some way.

I hope I didn't forget anybody.

As much as I appreciate you taking the time to go through many of the characters and say which ones have custom moves that may help them more against Rosalina & Luma than their standard attacks, the concept that all of these characters benefit more from their custom moves in a match up against RosaLuma than RosaLuma improves from her custom moves in a match up against them is way off, in my opinion.

You're looking at everything with rose-tinted glasses about how useful these moves are against RosaLuma, and pretty much ignoring what RosaLuma's custom moves can do to each of her opponents.

For example, one thing you mention over and over again is that other characters have projectiles which can outspam RosaLuma's speedy star bit attack. But what's good about the speedy star bit isn't simply that you can get into a spam war with your opponent. What's good about it is that the star bits move so fast, that it's extremely easy to catch your opponent off guard with them and rack up damage. Combined with gravitational pull and Luma, the speedy star bit forces pretty much every other character to approach RosaLuma, if the RosaLuma player wants to play it that way. As great as her spacing ability already was, it goes to another level with custom moves.

Also, you pretty much ignore the Luma Warp custom move. The purpose of this attack is twofold. First of all, because Luma literally warps, it gets around projectile spam and puts Luma right on top of them. If the RosaLuma player gets the spacing right, it's very easy to throw Luma right at your opponent, which puts them into a brief moment of hit stun, and then you can do a very quick smash attack. Luma Warp is not a move about racking up damage; it's a move about knocking your opponent away, and it's a fantastic KO move (Luma Warp into side-smash or up-smash). Luma alone KOs opponents at absurdly low %s. Is Luma Warp blockable? Sure it is. But Luma Warp is not something that the RosaLuma player should be spamming (otherwise Luma would end up getting knocked away too easily). The RosaLuma player should pick spots with the Luma Warp. But if done correctly, it's very hard for your opponent to see coming, and before you know it Luma is knocking you into oblivion.

I'm not going to compare RosaLuma's customs to that of literally every other character. Frankly I doubt anyone here has an immense amount of experience with the customs of all the characters, so trying to rank their usefulness right now probably isn't very fruitful.

All I can say is this, I've had much more success with RosaLuma in matches that allow custom moves than matches which don't allow custom moves. I base this on extensive play with RosaLuma both with and without custom moves allowed. As good as she is without her custom moves, her threat goes to another level with the Speedy Star Bit and the Luma Warp. At least in my experience.

 

[Conda]

The tournaments I go to here in NJ allow Custom moves and Mii Fighters, and there are no restrictions on what their height/weight should be. My Brawler specifically is Middle Weight and a tad bit on the short side, but not to the extreme. Since APEX is also in NJ, i'm assuming that the rules are probably going to be the same.

Interesting.
Also, I never knew people wanted to ban them still, as someone else pointed out. Is banning them really a possibility down the road?

I understand that development wise, perhaps they weren't designed to be as balanced as other characters due to variable weight and height/range and movement speed and jump height. So it's possible maybe they are unbalanced by design.

 

[Rockaphin]

Care to talk about Falcon?

Like Sonic, I think the mechanics of Smash 4 really helps the Captain. I haven't really dug deep, but his priority seems really good and his ending frames for many moves are a lot lower than previously. His Uair is extremely solid and can be followed up fairly easily. Knee of Justice is back. Dthrow is a useful tool for set ups. I'm not really a pro or anything, but I'd say his only real flaw is his approach game and most of his specials are lacking. I can't really discuss any custom moves because I have no knowledge to his custom moves.

I don't have any videos, but I can confirm that it's absolutely a massive deal.

Alright, just wondering. I'm very curious about the move.

 

[Thinkaman]

As much as I appreciate you taking the time to go through many of the characters and say which ones have custom moves that may help them more against Rosalina & Luma than their standard attacks, the concept that all of these characters benefit more from their custom moves in a match up against RosaLuma than RosaLuma improves from her custom moves in a match up against them is way off, in my opinion.

As I said, many character don't actually benefit more, if at all. (Sheik, ZSS, Wario, Diddy, Yoshi, Jigglypuff...)

But most do benefit far more, and of those that don't, as it happens they are characters with oodles of mobility that aren't bothered as much by Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp.

You're looking at everything with rose-tinted glasses about how useful these moves are against RosaLuma, and pretty much ignoring what RosaLuma's custom moves can do to each of her opponents.

?????

I explicitly mentioned the impact of Speedy Star Bit on almost every line, with a long preface about its overlooked limitations.

I also talk about Luma Warp at length. It's an extremely strong move against people who haven't learned to deal with it, but it's utility is actually somewhat limited. Once the opponent knows they cannot attempt to harass or trade at that highly specific distance, the threat level plummets. (It's still the best option in slot though)

 

[SonicZeroX]

Care to talk about Falcon?

Speaking of him, I love Falcon and all, but if he's a top character then he'll be at the bottom of the list just like he was in Melee.

Mostly because his playstyle is pretty much just like Melee's. He's fast and destroys people, but in return he gets destroyed. His recovery is not terrible but still one of the poorer ones in the game (although I do like his high jump custom up b. It's not like the HYES grab is actually useful in a serious match. Dashing Falcon punch can be used for recovery too) and he gets juggled SUPER hard because he has very little reversal options in the air.

And like someone said earlier, Smash 4 is basically super trap bros, and Falcon just gets trapped all day by top tier characters like Diddy and Sheik. Part of the problem is while his aerials are amazing, they cover everywhere except for under him. He also lacks a get out of jail free move like other top chars such as Diddy's side B, Sheiks down B, and ZSS' down B. Side B is not invincible and has startup, and Falcon Kick is extremely unsafe.
Basically once you start getting juggled your only options are to jump away or airdodge. Meanwhile the other top tiers have all sorts of escape trickery.

What is in Falcon's favor though is he has one of the best juggle and punish games in the whole game, just like how he was in Melee. Knee is obviously amazing and is perhaps the strongest aerial in the game. His dash grab is crazy fast and he slides a fair distance during it giving it huge range and he has a ton of followups from his throws.
Furthermore, Uair is just godlike and should be abused at every opportunity, which is kind of hard to do on the 3DS but on the Wii U this move will be his bread and butter. Short hop fast fall Uair just does so many things because it's fast, has almost no landing lag (just 9 frames, which means it's potentially plus on block!), has great range, it does a lot of damage (13%), and it combos into anything you want, INCLUDING KNEE. At the damage ranges of 30-80% SHFF Uair into Knee is a true combo that can kill. It's tricky to do especially on low profile characters, but if people can pull off crazy knee combos with Falcon in Melee then they should be fine in Smash 4. It will require a lot of practice to learn how to do it in a real match factoring in rage + DI though.
What this means is Falcon is a constant threat. Something as a simple whiffed projectile or fsmash can easily lead to your death vs Falcon. So while characters like Diddy and Sheik can dance circles around Falcon, they usually have to rack up a lot of damage before they can kill, and if they make any mistakes during that time then they're in for a world of pain.

 

[Iron Kraken]

As I said, many character don't actually benefit more, if at all. (Sheik, ZSS, Wario, Diddy, Yoshi, Jigglypuff...)

But most do benefit far more, and of those that don't, as it happens they are characters with oodles of mobility that aren't bothered as much by Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp.



?????

I explicitly mentioned the impact of Speedy Star Bit on almost every line, with a long preface about its overlooked limitations.

I also talk about Luma Warp at length. It's an extremely strong move against people who haven't learned to deal with it, but it's utility is actually somewhat limited. Once the opponent knows they cannot attempt to harass or trade at that highly specific distance, the threat level plummets. (It's still the best option in slot though)

The point I'm making (and I'm not the only person in this thread to make this point) is that your post basically boils down to saying "here is a list of characters which have custom moves that are at least somewhat useful against Rosalina & Luma." What you're not doing at all is making a good case for the fact that each of these characters gain more of an advantage with their custom moves than RosaLuma is gaining from her custom moves.

I think the Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp are real assets, and I am seriously skeptical that all the characters you mentioned benefit more from their customs than RosaLuma does. If I were to make a similar post to yours, comparing RosaLuma's customs to all the characters you mentioned, I would end up saying the same thing over and over again. "Speedy Star Bit forces them to approach even more, and is absurdly good at racking up 4-5% because of how fast 1 star bit goes. Luma Warp gets around your [insert character]'s projectile spam, and is a really good KO tool." I could literally say this over and over again, and it would be more or less the same thing as you posting about a bunch of other characters and saying why their custom moves are useful against RosaLuma.

 

[sunset_raven]

@ Iron Kraken , have you had any experience against Link? I'm trying to think how GP disrupts Link's projectile game... At long range, it seems that GP nullifies Link's advantage. At mid range, things get complicated. With Quickfire Bow, Ripping Boomerang / Boomerang and Meteor Bomb, he can force Rosa to GP, possibly opening her up to zAir, DA or dash grab (but Rosa could go for Luma Warp, I believe). And close range, I'm not sure... Both seem to have similar ranges in their tilts, possibly advantageous to Rosa. If the Rosa player adopts a defensive plan, it seems Link could only zAir. Possibly try to grab, but his grab is super laggy.

 

[Z'zgashi]

It took me just a single stock to get used to the changes of Rosy's customs (namely Warp and Speedy Star Bit) then I adapted to the match up to the point where it wasnt much different, and Im not even that good of a player at adapting.

 

[popsofctown]

Let's agree to disagree whether Rosalina benefits from customs much. It hardly matters. She's a good character either way.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Like, Im not saying she doesnt benefit at all, she does for sure against specific characters, but its not a huge buff to her game and its not so much making her any better or giving her any more options so much as it allows her to work around an opponents options better if that makes sense.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It has EVERYTHING to do with close quarter combat. The faster a cqc move the better it is in cqc.

I don't even... I just...

*sigh*

@ Thinkaman why are the Pits in a different section when they have pretty much the same basic principles in their customs? If anything I would think Dark Pit would benefit more from them since he can switch to a more controllable Bow.

grabbing is qcq as well but some of the most effective grabs are done slowly.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

grabbing is qcq as well but some of the most effective grabs are done slowly.

No. That has little bearing on what Shaya and Mimigrim are talking about.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No. That has little bearing on what Shaya and Mimigrim are talking about.

Smooth Criminal

that is true but what im saying hmm lets put ot like this street fighter's dalsim in not a qcq in videogame logic. give a character a sword? not qcq. the fact that snake has the smae range as pit fuels this reasoning of snake not really being qcq in the smash series but hey to each there own.

 

[Conda]

Mii gunner has a great wave bounce with grenade neutral b, a lot of potential for mind games too due to wave bouncing and reversing etc. I'll make a vid once the wii u version comes out, to show some of what the gunner can do.

Small thin mii gunner is super fast, has a bunch of projectiles and CBC options, and a reflector. A lot of fun tbh.

 

[Iron Kraken]

@ Iron Kraken , have you had any experience against Link? I'm trying to think how GP disrupts Link's projectile game... At long range, it seems that GP nullifies Link's advantage. At mid range, things get complicated. With Quickfire Bow, Ripping Boomerang / Boomerang and Meteor Bomb, he can force Rosa to GP, possibly opening her up to zAir, DA or dash grab (but Rosa could go for Luma Warp, I believe). And close range, I'm not sure... Both seem to have similar ranges in their tilts, possibly advantageous to Rosa. If the Rosa player adopts a defensive plan, it seems Link could only zAir. Possibly try to grab, but his grab is super laggy.

I've had a lot of experience against Link (although only limited experience against Link's custom moves). As you say, Gravitational Pull totally disrupts Link's long-range projectile game. At mid-range, it really becomes a game of chicken. Neither the Rosalina nor the Link player is really forced to approach. As they can both stop each other's projectiles easily from a position of defense. Link is one of the very few characters that isn't forced to approach Rosalina.

As Link, your best bet is probably to do what you say, get to mid range and try to force a gravitational pull / shield, and then quickly go for a grab or attack when Rosalina is on the defense. But the Rosalina player also may be able to escape that and punish Link's laggy attacks, so it could go either way.

When I play a Link, my strategy basically boils down to baiting attacks from Link and then going in for punishes. I wouldn't say the match is particularly in Rosalina's favor though, Link can definitely hold his own. If Rosalina has any advantage at all it's just for the same reasons that she's generally a strong character in the game.

Also, Link is one of the characters that Luma Warp is most useful against. I would never use the power shot against Link; it would just separate Luma from me (meaning Luma can be KOed easily) and not gain me much, since Link can stop the power shot in its tracks with projectile spam. But Luma Warp is a really good way of getting around Link's projectile spam and punishing it.

 

[mimgrim]

that is true but what im saying hmm lets put ot like this street fighter's dalsim in not a qcq in videogame logic. give a character a sword? not qcq. the fact that snake has the smae range as pit fuels this reasoning of snake not really being qcq in the smash series but hey to each there own.

Close Quarter Combat doesn't mean hand to hand fighting necessarily. Pit may fight with a weapon in Brawl, but keep in mind the range was pretty damn short. If Snake's attacks have the same range as Pit's then that doesn't make Snake not a cqc character but rather means Pit has low range for a sword user. I could be mistaken, but I believe Pit is/was consider a bit of a cqc character in Brawl anyways.

 

[Iron Kraken]

It took me just a single stock to get used to the changes of Rosy's customs (namely Warp and Speedy Star Bit) then I adapted to the match up to the point where it wasnt much different, and Im not even that good of a player at adapting.

Like, Im not saying she doesnt benefit at all, she does for sure against specific characters, but its not a huge buff to her game and its not so much making her any better or giving her any more options so much as it allows her to work around an opponents options better if that makes sense.

So... what exactly does you getting used to Rosalina's customs have to do anything? With enough playing time, everyone will get used to everything. The question is whether or not the custom moves are an effective tool for Rosalina, which I think they are.

Perhaps the match didn't play out much differently against the Rosalina you played, but for me it adds a lot to my Rosalina. Frankly I only got marginal use out of the Luma Power Shot (when that's what I'm equipped with). I rarely used it because the reward was rarely worth the loss of Luma's protection, potentially for an extended period of time. So often when you use it, your opponent can easily knock Luma off the stage. The best use I found for it was surprising an opponent not expecting it with a quick tap of the special button, knocking them aside and then going into her star bits to rack up additional damage. I would only use the attack when I was confident it would land, so I could quickly call Luma back to me. But overall, I only got marginal use from the power shot and the star bits.

But with Shooting Star Bit, it just adds another dimension to her game, as your opponent is always forced to be on their toes. The star bits go so fast that if you mix them into your repertoire it can be really hard for your opponent to avoid having the 4-5% tacked onto them here and there.

And with the Luma Warp, I feel that I have the freedom to separate Luma from me with little risk of losing Luma (unlike with the Luma Power Shot). It totally opens up my ability to separate Luma from me in useful capacities, and I feel safe doing so because I know that if I play it right my opponent won't be able to easily knock Luma away. It's useful for getting around projectiles spammers, edge guarding, and getting KOs (Luma can do a smash attack out of Luma Warp pretty much instantaneously, there's no lag on Luma Warp as far as I can tell).

Ultimately I can only speak from my own experience, but for me, it turns 2 attacks I got very little utility out of (Rosa's neutral-B and side-B) into attacks I get a ton of utility out of.

Let's agree to disagree whether Rosalina benefits from customs much. It hardly matters. She's a good character either way.

That works for me. But seriously, I'm just speaking from my own experience, which, I think, is all any of us can really do.

 

[NairWizard]

My tier list right now.

Top


High


High Mid


Mid


Low Mid


Low


Bottom

Momentarily putting aside my gripe with tier lists, it's rather amusing that one of these random perosnal tier lists puts Donkey Kong in bottom tier just as I was about to make an argument for his being in top tier.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Pit's unusual short disjoint for a sword user in Brawl made him more CQC then he is now that's for sure. However his old Dtilt was deceptive in its range relative to its speed and Ftlit still was an OK spacing tool (though his new one is godly by comparison.) He also was more of a long range zoner/camper. Pit was an example of Mario syndrome, being ok at everything... except unlike Mario he was slightly above average at almost everything (except for a godly recovery.)

Also, Snakes (stupid) range out did Pits in brawl. It was the rare lucky spacing trick that gave pit's disjoint an advantage on snakes hurtbox. Especially since snake had stupid invisible disjoints on his attacks too.

He is more of a mid range spacer now for sure though. Lovely new tilts and upperdash ensure that.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Close Quarter Combat doesn't mean hand to hand fighting necessarily. Pit may fight with a weapon in Brawl, but keep in mind the range was pretty damn short. If Snake's attacks have the same range as Pit's then that doesn't make Snake not a cqc character but rather means Pit has low range for a sword user. I could be mistaken, but I believe Pit is/was consider a bit of a cqc character in Brawl anyways.

lol to be honest it's not really a big deal im probably just making myself look like im makking a **** storm lol. but really i was just trying to get my perspective out there.
smash 4 pits range got the buff it needed.

 

[Conda]

I think http://www.smashladder.com/ Is the best thing right now for the interface etc... It's really easy to do matches and you select things in the right order, don't need to know the rules etc.
http://nintendodojo.com/ Is the better for competitive imo but nothing is automatic like the other. I would play all the time if it had the interface of the other.

For sure, those sites are good for ladders and ranking etc. I generally don't care about that kind of thing as it makes practicing online more stressful and limiting than it needs to be. r/SmashConnect has more of a social community feel, it's basically more of a comfortable place to go after work/school to open a room and play with competitive minded people in your region.

Regarding DK, he's good. As good as in brawl IMO, and he was good there. Requires someone who enjoys his limitations but also his strengths, but not a general character anyone can pick up and play. Similar to Jiggly and Megaman in that respect.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

zelda's custom up b seems pretty nifty farore's windfall looks like good trade for lesser recovery for stronger killing potential since the second hit box is always a meteor smash.
down sides
only gose upwards- u can influence it a bit but its more like mega mans when going up.
melee edge mechanic- meaning no ledge snap meanong drop the aproximate distance down to prevent punish. (still not a smart idea to jump off to kill zelda concidering you might get spiked when shes recovering.)
postitives
less punishable- mostly because your new main vantage point for using it is off stage for when people recover high or horizontally.
significantly faster teleport- making catching people off guard much easyer. can string into up throw/up tilt at higher percents. like 80% area.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with @ Conda right now; we're not talking about lesser used characters. Most of the time discussion is back and forth about how good some characters are, such as Yoshi, Rosaluma, ZSS, Mario, Diddy, and Shiek. Throw in a few "Lucario's Aura mechanic is so horribly designed" and we have what this thread mainly is discussing. Meanwhile other characters aren't being discussed such as Megaman, Shulk, and Bowser Jr. because they are considered to be bad. Also, I haven't seen much matchup discussion which is a big part of tier lists. Why don't we try talking about lesser used character match ups with the more discussed characters so everything isn't completely unfamiliar, but it still helps out players of the lesser used character.

Possible topic starter: How does Bowser Jr. match up against Mac with his weight and damage mitigation mechanic coupled with Mac not having an air game, so the Jr. player can maneuver in a way that if he gets hit it is more likely to take less damage than normal? Will Jr. be able to almost always gimp Mac with a thrown giant mechakoopa due to the size and power coupled with Mac's predictable recovery?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I agree with @ Conda right now; we're not talking about lesser used characters. Most of the time discussion is back and forth about how good some characters are, such as Yoshi, Rosaluma, ZSS, Mario, Diddy, and Shiek. Throw in a few "Lucario's Aura mechanic is so horribly designed" and we have what this thread mainly is discussing. Meanwhile other characters aren't being discussed such as Megaman, Shulk, and Bowser Jr. because they are considered to be bad. Also, I haven't seen much matchup discussion which is a big part of tier lists. Why don't we try talking about lesser used character match ups with the more discussed characters so everything isn't completely unfamiliar, but it still helps out players of the lesser used character.

Possible topic starter: How does Bowser Jr. match up against Mac with his weight and damage mitigation mechanic coupled with Mac not having an air game, so the Jr. player can maneuver in a way that if he gets hit it is more likely to take less damage than normal? Will Jr. be able to almost always gimp Mac with a thrown giant mechakoopa due to the size and power coupled with Mac's predictable recovery?

depends on mac customs i guess.

 

[mimgrim]

Regarding DK, he's good. As good as in brawl IMO, and he was good there. Requires someone who enjoys his limitations but also his strengths, but not a general character anyone can pick up and play. Similar to Jiggly and Megaman in that respect.

His tornado Up Special custom is annoying as all hell though. I couldn't figure out a way to knock him out of that move for the life of me and every time I tried I got sucked in by the move. So. Very. Annoying.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

His tornado Up Special custom is annoying as all hell though. I couldn't figure out a way to knock him out of that move for the life of me and every time I tried I got sucked in by the move. So. Very. Annoying.

it has ultimate armor not just super armor you litterally cant knock him out of the move.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I've been told twice now that certain drastic changes have been made to smash Wii-U. Certain character's techs that are in the 3ds version do not appear in or have been taken out of smash Wii-U. Why isn't there any discussion on this? What else has been changed? Has everyone's more glitch related character development up until now been for nothing?
Here are the posts taken from the Link board's social thread.

all landing cancels greninja's Shadow sneak, peach and TL/Links bomb cancel with bomb pull i was told by the socal top players who went to the west hollywood wii u smash event and a friend of mine who plays link told me he wasn't able to do it, but you can z-drop without a laggy zair now and now your hook shot drops to the ground like in brawl not like in the 3ds where it shoots and comes back without dropping

So in regards to the item toss Landing-lag cancel:

Sorry, but Scizor is not a troll. Unfortunately, I can confirm it is true that the Wii U version doesn't have it. I went to a tournament last night in Toronto, one of the players got a copy of the game early (Nintendo has been giving some members of the community early copies up here in Canada, particularly members who have done a great service to their major smash communities. The only I can mention is Pidge, since she already made it public and posted a photo of her with the box on her FB profile). They let the participants play friendlies (8-player mode is balls to the wall chaotic, btw), but the conditions were we couldn't take video nor pictures of game footage to avoid getting in crap with Nintendo. Hence, I have no footage to show, and I also can't reveal anything besides character data.

I guess you'll all have to take our word for it, but I can confirm: Unfortunately, no item toss landing-lag cancel exists in Wii U. I dunno if the big N is planning to update this through an online update: they did say all the 3DS tactics would work in Wii U in the direct. But since the game isn't supposed to be officially released in NA yet, we'll have to wait and see whether this remains permanent or not.

WHY IS THERE NO DISCUSSION ON THIS? Someone tell me what the hell is going on.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi's glitches with the Ledge jump stuff or custom moves with the super high jump has been removed.
And nothing of value was lost that day.

 

[TLMSheikant]

I've been told twice now that certain drastic changes have been made to smash Wii-U. Certain character's techs that are in the 3ds version do not appear in or have been taken out of smash Wii-U. Why isn't there any discussion on this? What else has been changed? Has everyone's more glitch related character development up until now been for nothing?
Here are the posts taken from the Link board's social thread.


WHY IS THERE NO DISCUSSION ON THIS? Someone tell me what the hell is going on.

.......RIP TL

 

[mimgrim]

What about Palutena? That's who I care about in the Wii-U version.