Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

I agree that Speedy Star Bit is amazing, but it isn't quite old Falco laser. It feels overwhelming at first, but has some important limitations that make the move way more manageable with experience.

• If Rosalina uses it in the air, Luma sticks in place and is momentarily separated. Aerial repeat use is more limited that similar laser-style projectiles.
• Reflecting the star bit always hits Luma as a result of that too. This is not true for similar projectiles done in the air.
• It's not as fast as similar moves (in any regard), though the damage (5/4%) is quite good.
• When Luma is separated, the coverage and stage control of the move becomes way worse.
• Rosalina can't use at all it if Luma is in tumble or dead.

Luma Warp is imo better than Luma Shot, but isn't amazing. It tends to get predictable, and does trivial damage--the combos out of it aren't reliable/consistent in my experience. Additionally, it tends to be a relatively risky separation. Luma is almost always vulnerable to being punted with an aerial out of Warp; it still must be used responsibly.

Characters that get better customs for dealing with Rosalina, often specifically Luma:
Fast Fireball outspams Speedy Star Bit, which he can safely reflect anyway. Explosive Jump Punch is probably scary for Rosalina, she dies vertically very easily.
Bouncing Fireball gives him a reasonable harassment approach for Luma, and his Tornado. Clothesline Tornado could hypothetically be taken as a Luma killer.
Side-b options might be better, but I strongly doubt this is a bad matchup for her to begin with.
So there's this move called Dash Claw...
Lick is pretty great against Luma, especially since Egg Lay isn't as good. Eggs also win trades with Speedy Star Bit.
Koopa Drift (kart 2) and Big Mechakoopas destroy Luma. Hard. Piercing Cannon might be a plus too, but I can actually see him taking the default as a Luma killer too.
Benefits little, but he does appreciate the faster bike to close the distance and recover that much better. Due to his aerial speed, he doesn't care as much about Speedy Star Bit as most.
Short-Order Chef outspams Speedy Star Bit, which is a 42% (raw) Bucket anyway...
Kong Cyclone melts Luma.
Battering Banana Peel is way more effective if it hits Luma; normal Bananas do essentially nothing!
Not sure if Power Bow would actually work in this matchup, but if it hits it EASILY OHKOs Luma. Piercing Arrows would also be better than the default here. Ripping Boomerang is great against Luma. Regular Boomerang probably better than default too. Also, he can hyrule shield Speedy Star Bit.
Has a reflector for Speedy Star Bit, and all forms of Din's Fire are more viable traps on Luma than real characters. (No good in neutral though, naturally.) All forms of Phantom wreck Luma as well. Even if she chooses use defaults, Zelda is not bothered by Rosalina's upgrades in the slightest.
I can't decide if Sheik would actually take Piercing Needles. Either way, needles still beat Speedy Star Bit, even if it almost events the score. Her default grenade is poor against Luma; both the others are really good though. Pisces (down 3, the long kick) might also be better in this matchup; Bouncing Fish normally only hits Luma or Rosalina, but Pisces tends to hit both.
Holy crap. Wizard's Dropkick is incredible and beats Speedy Star Bit. His two command grabs, which Luma can punish, can be replaced by attacks that DESTROY Luma. Sheesh, even Warlock Blade stands a chance at actually hitting Luma!
Not unlike Link, many of his disruptive projectile alternatives are a serious anti-Luma boon. Also, hyrule shield.
While Speedy Star Bit is a pain for her, she more than ups the ante with her superior missile upgrades. Samus loves customs.
Plasma Dash (side-b 2) is way more effective against Luma on hit than Plasma Whip, but probably not worth it. (Way less safe) However, Whip Lash is still more effective, and a reasonable option. Shooting Star Kick hits both targets better and might be interesting, but I'm also skeptical. Regardless, ZSS's speed and pressure mitigate a lot of the value of Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp.
Not only has a reflector to marginalize Speedy Star Bit (and side-b!), but with customs can take a way stronger one. Can take Piercing Arrow to deal with Luma, but I'm not sure it's worth it. If not, Guiding Arrow is pretty great and a better option for the context.
LOL. Nevermind Reflect Barrier, Super Speed might be the best anti-Luma move in the game. Explosive Flame is good too. Lightweight is also really good in this matchup.
Assault Dash is very valuable in this matchup.
Close Combat!!!!!
So Thoron+ is amazing against Luma (and Rosalina in general), but Speedy Star Bit can make it hard to charge. He might opt for Speed Thunder instead if he proves to have difficulty with Luma. However, Arcfire is already a decen anti-Luma move, and Arcfire+ (normally a poor choice) is an INCREDIBLE anti-Luma move that trades favorably with Speedy Star Bit.
Copied Luma Shot is neat and seems to to trade favorably with Speedy Star Bit for what it's worth.
Dedede Storm (neutral 2, the one with the repeating hitboxes) destroys Luma, often OHKOs. Good thing too, he hates Speedy Star Bit and Luma ruins Gordos...
MK's main custom upgrade in general is Tornado 3 as a strong, moderate-risk vertical kill option. This is crucial against Rosalina! (Also, it will always kill Luma, which is a great consolation prize if it is blocked.) High-Speed Drill is also the superior anti-Luma side-b.
Might consider Dash Counter to deal with Speedy Star Bit.
Has a reflector to marginalize Speedy Star Bit, has the option to take a stronger (slower) one, and Twisting Fox (up 3) is a decent anti-Luma move.
Void Reflector is amazing in general, and fantastic at killing Luma; who cares about reflecting star bits when you can do that! (It still blocks them)
Discharge is probably a really good anti-Luma move.
Dragon Rush is one of the best anti-Luma moves in the game. Rising Cyclone is a powerful vertical kill move, great against Rosalina.
Ensnaring Aura Sphere is so much better against Luma. The long range Force Palm is probably good too.
Doesn't care much about Speedy Star Bit or Luma Warp. Hyper Voice is trivially better than Sing, which is even more useless against Rosalina than ever before. (Hyper Voice actually kills Luma quite well!) Rollout is very poor because of Luma, so this is the only matchup where Jigglypuff should take Relentless Rollout. Pound Blitz is also possibly the superior option in this matchup.
Rosalina is huge and floaty; this makes Zig-Zag Can amazing. Giant Gunman totally blocks Star Bits.
Better options for spamming against Speedy Star Bit, and I recall one of the side-bs being a superior anti-Luma move? Reflects are good too...
He can just absorb Speedy Star Bits, and all 3 PK Fires are uniquely great against Luma in their own way. The long-lasting one traps Luma for the entire duration, dooming it.
Falcon Dash Punch, sort of like Warlock Blade is a lulzy and effective-yet-dubious anti-Luma nuclear option. Either custom Raptor Boost is important here, because the normal one cannot hit through Luma; both the armor/power of 2 or aerial mobility of 3 are welcome tools in this matchup. Default Falcon Kick is best though, as it's a good anti-Luma move.
Everyone knows Timber Counter is crazy good. Not as amazing against Rosalina as many, but still good. And of course, Pocket beats Speedy Star Bit, unlike the normal star bits!
Tackle Pikmin Throw is crucial for coping with Luma.
JUMBO HOOP, DESTROYER OF WORLDS LUMA.
Same as Mario, but might consider Clothesline Tornado for annihilating Luma.
If Speedy Star Bits prove really problematic, he can always take Dash Vision. But otherwise, Power Vision is such a huge upgrade on its own, and punts Luma pretty far. Armored Back Slash is the ultimate counter for separated Luma attacking you in the middle.
No idea if his alternate fruit sets are better in the matchup; so hard to analyze. His Enticing Power Pellet kills Luma really easily, but I dunno if he'd actually take that.
Skull Barrier is a functional reflector for Speedy Star Bit. Ice Slasher might be worth taking, but YMMV.
Hammer Spin Dash didn't stop being crazy good or anything. It also helps avoid/beat Speedy Star Bit.
Up-b 3i just great against Rosalina in general. This other custom options are way improved at killing Luma too, lots of the meaty multi-hit stuff that Luma hates.
Customs let him take a reflector--also has superior anti-Luma moves.
Has a reflector and decent anti-Luma tools, get way better with customs anyway. (Though less against Rosalina than most, ironically.)

So yeah, those are the characters that benefit from having customs enabled against Rosalina in some way.

I hope I didn't forget anybody.

I normally enjoy your posts, but this all seems like a huge stretch to make a point; the list isn't as impressive as you seem to think it is (referring to "I hope I didn't forget anybody"). Actually, every time someone makes a list like this that attempts to substantiate a claim against the entire cast, details are inevitably glossed over to support the conclusion, so I can hardly call you out alone for this kind of post.

This is the conclusion that you come to:

"Those are the characters that benefit from having customs enabled against Rosalina in some way"

and these are some examples of the evidence that you use to substantiate that claim:

" Plasma Dash (side-b 2) is way more effective against Luma on hit than Plasma Whip, but probably not worth it. (Way less safe) However, Whip Lash is still more effective, and a reasonable option. Shooting Star Kick hits both targets better and might be interesting, but I'm also skeptical. Regardless, ZSS's speed and pressure mitigate a lot of the value of Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp."

or you could look at it from both sides rather than from one direction and see that Rosalina's speedy star bit enables her to actually do something against ZSS' paralyzer camping from afar that she ordinarily can't do. Luma Warp also allows Rosalina to get in with less risk to Luma than Luma Shot (with Luma shot, Luma gets paralyzed much more easily).

Rather than, "ZSS' speed and pressure mitigate a lot of the value of Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp," you could say, "Rosalina's Speedy Star Bit and Luma Warp mitigate the advantage that ZSS' speed and pressure normally provide," which is true. The matchup seems to improve for Rosalina; at best you could say that it remains the same. I don't see how you can conclude that it actually improves more in ZSS' favor than Rosalina's.

"Skull Barrier is a functional reflector for Speedy Star Bit. Ice Slasher might be worth taking, but YMMV."

If Skull Barrier cancels out Speedy Star Bit, at best these customs cancel each other, and you say that you are unsure about Ice Slasher. So how exactly is Megaman "benefiting" from customs being enabled according to this analysis? Seems more like very little changes for the matchup when transitioning from default to custom--except that Rosalina can get around the projectile wall that Megaman likes to put up a little better with Luma Warp equipped, and, whenever Skull Barrier is not up, Speedy Star Bit > Starbits.

" No idea if his alternate fruit sets are better in the matchup; so hard to analyze. His Enticing Power Pellet kills Luma really easily, but I dunno if he'd actually take that."

This one actually doesn't even arrive at a conclusion.

and so on. I'm sure that you could give more in-depth analyses than the ones that you've given here, or debate some of these points, but surely you must see how shallow and one-sided the initial list is. I don't mind if people make extreme claims (and in fact, I don't disagree with your claim that much, only the extent to which you are taking it), but ignoring one side's advantages and looking only at what the other side gains doesn't sit right with me.

Luma is separated, the coverage and stage control of the move becomes way worse.

Offset by the advantage of being able to fire it from a location outside of Rosalina's position, which you cannot do with any other projectile.

 

[Thinkaman]

I feel Link's Power Bow and Meteor Bombs would give him a higher advantage, due to the insane knockback and power the Power Bow has, and the self-explanatory capabilities of the Meteor Bombs with their range as well.

How do you feel on them?

(Every time I think of Power Bow, and every time I see it connect, I feel like saying "KER-POP!" every time.)

I think Power Bow is neat but pretty situational? Meteor Bombs I'm not sold on.

As for Rosalina, I don't think every character gains from customs in that matchup, obviously. ZSS, Diddy, Yoshi, and Wario are clear losers, even if it's not all bad. A few others like Jigglypuff, Pac-Man, and Mega Man lose a bit more than they gain.

But the vast majority of the cast, especially many who normally struggle a good bit against Rosalina? They stand to gain a ton--and they do.

 

[sunset_raven]

I don't think Rosalina is really bad when you allow custom moves but i do think people were way too quick to jump on the "brawl metaknight" status. I think partly what has made Rosalina so good in the early metagame is people's misunderstanding of how to deal with her. Separating Luma from her is much easier than you would think. And killing Luma is as easy as knocking her off stage since Rosalina can't regain control of Luma until he/she (it?) touches the ground. As characters learn their best options to kill Luma the matchup will become easier. Now, of course, Rosalina will be developing as well but I think the shouts of OP will remain in the early metagame. I feel as if Rosalina will stay in the top 5 but I have my doubts that she will end up being the best character.

On another note, I'm generally impressed with how balanced this game seems early on.

The Rosalina topic is pretty complicated... I main Dhalsim/Sagat in SF4, and would like to main Villager (or another keepaway, mixed-but-keepaway-orientated character), but I'm constantly thinking: "What are my odds w/ X character against Rosalina?" This, IMO, shows how relevant she is in the current Smash 4 metagame.

But I agree, there's just not enough evidence to deem her OP right now.

Regarding customs. Yeah, they seem to alleviate tougher matchups, but only a matchup by matchup analysis could prove that they do. For all I know, there aren't that many characters that change enough to turn matchups around (not to say there aren't many viable characters, just that many customs won't skyrocket characters to higher tiers - looking at you Samus).

 

[Mr. Johan]

If anything, Diddy's set to become the next Brawl Meta Knight.

There's literally nothing he can't do in this game. He's got guaranteed setups from every percent up to around 110, a very easy means to get those setups started, his moves have barely any startup, any endlag, and are ridiculously large and high priority, he has a command grab that can turn into a very high priority kick if someone tries to fight the flip, his Up air and Fsmash are super strong in this game, he can recover from any angle now.

Where's the flaws? Because I don't see them with this monkey. Losing that second banana from Brawl did jack all to stop him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If anything, Diddy's set to become the next Brawl Meta Knight.

There's literally nothing he can't do in this game. He's got guaranteed setups from every percent up to around 110, a very easy means to get those setups started, his moves have barely any startup, any endlag, and are ridiculously large and high priority, he has a command grab that can turn into a very high priority kick if someone tries to fight the flip, his Up air and Fsmash are super strong in this game, he can recover from any angle now.

Where's the flaws? Because I don't see them with this monkey. Losing that second banana from Brawl did jack all to stop him.

He has a hard time beating Rosalina who can easily ignore his Banana game and edgeguard him consistently, as I understand.

 

[popsofctown]

Glide tossing was removed.

I think Diddy's weakness in this game is characters with good shielding tactics. His throws seem to have reduced kill power this time around, which means that heavy use of shield while in the red zone can give really extensive survivability against Diddy. He has a command grab and you'll eat that a few times, but what doesn't kill you makes you stronger

 

[Conda]

The Rosalina topic is pretty complicated... I main Dhalsim/Sagat in SF4, and would like to main Villager (or another keepaway, mixed-but-keepaway-orientated character), but I'm constantly thinking: "What are my odds w/ X character against Rosalina?" This, IMO, shows how relevant she is in the current Smash 4 metagame.

But I agree, there's just not enough evidence to deem her OP right now.

Regarding customs. Yeah, they seem to alleviate tougher matchups, but only a matchup by matchup analysis could prove that they do. For all I know, there aren't that many characters that change enough to turn matchups around (not to say there aren't many viable characters, just that many customs won't skyrocket characters to higher tiers - looking at you Samus).

I agree, but with the mains I look at, I'm personally more concerned with how I match up against close ranged rush characters. That is simply a weakness in line with most of my potential mains. Rosalina isn't as much a problem to me as Sheik and similar in-your-face shutdown characters. That's a combo of personal playstle and character choice that leads to that.

But I get what you mean - Rosa is polarizing in the way the tops in Brawl were. If your character had a bad matchup against MK, your viability took a huge dive. That doesn't mean she's OP, of course. She just reduces the viability of many characters who have a certain playstyle/archetype, or without a very strong design element to carry them.

 

[sunset_raven]

I agree, but with the mains I look at, I'm personally more concerned with how I match up against close ranged rush characters. That is simply a weakness in line with most of my potential mains. Rosalina isn't as much a problem to me as Sheik and similar in-your-face shutdown characters. That's a combo of personal playstle and character choice that leads to that.

But I get what you mean - Rosa is polarizing in the way the tops in Brawl were. If your character had a bad matchup against MK, your viability took a huge dive. That doesn't mean she's OP, of course. She just reduces the viability of many characters who have a certain playstyle/archetype, or without a very strong design element to carry them.

Continuing on the topic of Rosa, what are your thoughts on Villager against her? Actually, is there any keepaway character in this game that doesn't have to completely change it's gameplan against her?

 

[popsofctown]

Continuing on the topic of Rosa, what are your thoughts on Villager against her? Actually, is there any keepaway character in this game that doesn't have to completely change it's gameplan against her?

Maybe Tink with 1 second screw-gravity bombs?

 

[Conda]

Maybe Tink with 1 second screw-gravity bombs?

Tink's 1 second timer bombs are what's making me consider maining him. Super fun, but so gimmicky and silly.

 

[NairWizard]

If anything, Diddy's set to become the next Brawl Meta Knight.

There's literally nothing he can't do in this game. He's got guaranteed setups from every percent up to around 110, a very easy means to get those setups started, his moves have barely any startup, any endlag, and are ridiculously large and high priority, he has a command grab that can turn into a very high priority kick if someone tries to fight the flip, his Up air and Fsmash are super strong in this game, he can recover from any angle now.

Where's the flaws? Because I don't see them with this monkey. Losing that second banana from Brawl did jack all to stop him.

Formerly mained Diddy, occasionally still use him online. My perspective:

Brawl Meta Knight was overpowered because of the huge number of safe options that he had that you couldn't react to. Diddy doesn't have that; most of his moves aren't super safe except banana toss, which is always safe unless you're facing Rosalina (or your opponent catches it, but that's a different story), and while banana and Monkey Flip do give him additional options, those options are weak to spotdodge so they aren't great for coverage.

Barely any startup and any endlag are exaggerations: he's not noticeably faster than most other good characters in this game. His lowest-landing-lag aerial is n-air with 13 frames.
Monkey Flip can be spotdodged; don't try to shield it and you're fine.
Recovery was boosted but if you hit him even once out of his up-b he dies, so the risk is great: if he couldn't angle it he'd be bottom tier because everyone could just put a foot out and edgeguard him (well, not bottom tier--that's hyperbole, but he would plunge).

When his opponent has a stronger projectile than he does, he has a very rough time getting in, as his approach tools consist of run in shieldgrab, banana toss, or monkey flip, all of which lose to spotdodge.

 

[Conda]

How are we feeling about the Mii fighters, regarding their exclusion from 'practice mode', aka For Glory. Not being allowed in For Glory stunts their general public metagame growth, and makes the metagame 'feel' as if it doesn't truly include them.

The reality of For Glory being practice mode and customs not being allowed means that everyone is going to be more used to all fighters without custom moves -- this is true. This really is quite a big deal on its own - customs will have a natural benefit a lot of the time simply due to unfamiliarity compared to the default specials.

However, the Miis aren't in For Glory at all, and their metagame will likely grow at a snails pace as a result. Sure, characters like Olimar are barely played so it's a similar situation for some characters. But some of the Mii fighters have no right to be underplayed as they are very capable, namely Gunner and moreso Brawler. They 'would' have a large effect on the meta (likely) if they were in For Glory, but currently it's as if they're soft-banned.

It's just because we don't practice with them in For Glory -- they don't 'feel like part of the competitive landscape.

The community will likely have to switch to community-developed online play services like www.reddit.com/r/smashconnect where people can play with Miis, but also customs on any character. If the majority of the competitive community plays this way, instead of For Glory, then the meta will develop with people practicing with customs + Miis enabled, which I think is important.

If For Glory is the main way of us practicing in the competitive community, then 'customs' and 'miis' will always feel like a special thing, as they won't be as integrated into the metagame psychologically and literally. It's true that local play has always been the main practicing ground for serious competitive play, but with the onset of low-lag online play, there will be more and more people practicing online than ever before, and rightfully so.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It'll probably be a sad reality that the Miis will be underrepresented in general, but at the same time that also makes them very much a wild card sort of character where not a lot of people will fully understand what they can do and lead to possible upsets at tournaments. (Their diverse specials only enhance this.) Maybe after a few of those people will start to take them seriously?

 

[Conda]

It'll probably be a sad reality that the Miis will be underrepresented in general, but at the same time that also makes them very much a wild card sort of character where not a lot of people will fully understand what they can do and lead to possible upsets at tournaments. (Their diverse specials only enhance this.) Maybe after a few of those people will start to take them seriously?

Agreed. However, 'taking them seriously' still means you cannot utilize For Glory to practice publicly. I suppose that's where the importance of non-ForGlory practice comes into play. Hopefully enough people join the services that make 'With Friends' the new way to practice with a wide variety of fellow competitive players.

r/SmashConnect helps with this, yet it's not too big yet (though pretty active considering the main console version isn't out yet). It'll hopefully grow as the Wii U version becomes our main version to play. If not, then we'll be stuck with For Glory being the norm, which will cause issues imo.


Edit: To add --
Not being able to play with the Miis discourages me from wanting to main one of them, as I'll lose a practice mode in the game. Which sucks! Same goes for custom moves - I secretly hope that the characters I use are better off using their defaults, because that means I can practice in For Glory. I'm sure a lot of you get what I'm feeling.

 

[Yokoblue]

Agreed. However, 'taking them seriously' still means you cannot utilize For Glory to practice publicly. I suppose that's where the importance of non-ForGlory practice comes into play. Hopefully enough people join the services that make 'With Friends' the new way to practice with a wide variety of fellow competitive players.

r/SmashConnect helps with this, yet it's not too big yet (though pretty active considering the main console version isn't out yet). It'll hopefully grow as the Wii U version becomes our main version to play. If not, then we'll be stuck with For Glory being the norm, which will cause issues imo.


Edit: To add --
Not being able to play with the Miis discourages me from wanting to main one of them, as I'll lose a practice mode in the game. Which sucks! Same goes for custom moves - I secretly hope that the characters I use are better off using their defaults, because that means I can practice in For Glory. I'm sure a lot of you get what I'm feeling.

I think http://www.smashladder.com/ Is the best thing right now for the interface etc... It's really easy to do matches and you select things in the right order, don't need to know the rules etc.
http://nintendodojo.com/ Is the better for competitive imo but nothing is automatic like the other. I would play all the time if it had the interface of the other.

 

[Yonder]

What does everyone think of luigi? I haven't gotten the game yet so I was just wondering. Alot of people have him as the worst character in the game

I still think hes a lower mid tier. Peeople who think he is the WORST in the game I don't get. At least he has one of the best combo games ever. That's still more than the next 3 I will mention. If I was to be absolutely mean against Luigi, I would still say he is better than Default Palutena, Doc, and Olimar. Those are the true stinkers in this game. Actually, I would put those 3 in low tier by themselves. Sounds perfect actually, since I don't feel a bottom tier in this game.

 

[HiNiTe]

He has a hard time beating Rosalina who can easily ignore his Banana game and edgeguard him consistently, as I understand.

To add to this, there's also significant amount of tournament results we have (at this point anyway) that show this is true, Rosalina beats Diddy Kong in that department as well. Diddy has a tough time getting in on Rosa because he revolves around grabs to start his setups usually, and Luma can poke Diddy out of it if you're fast enough.

Continuing on the topic of Rosa, what are your thoughts on Villager against her? Actually, is there any keepaway character in this game that doesn't have to completely change it's gameplan against her?

Not really. Villager probably has a bad matchup against Rosalina since Gravitional Pull renders all of his projectiles near useless even if you play more strategically than usual. Rosalina is polarizing, she forces many characters to get into her zone or her bubble, she doesn't have to go in if she doesn't feel like it (unless it's against Link and Toon Link, probably.) Your question generally envelops the whole question of Rosalina and why she's so good, because characters have to change their fundamental gameplan to deal with her and Luma unlike other characters, and even when they do, she still has the tools to do well.

 

[KenMeister]

How does anyone feel if someone Link or Toon Link were to implement Zair against Rosalina in the matchup? I mean, think about it, she can't absorb it since it's not a projectile, it has higher range than any of Rosie's other moves, and any of Link's and TL's SH's can hit Rosie with Zair no matter their height of their short hop, since Rosalina is a really tall target and all. Thoughts?

 

[Shaya]

Link and Toon Links implement zair into their game in Brawl, for sure. In both cases they tend not to get much use out of it against shorter characters. Rosalina's tallllll though.

So... I'm just imagining those characters using their god given tools like any master of their character would? It's nothing new.
Depends on how much hitstun it does to Luma really, but then Rosalina will put Luma and longer distances than their zairs for walling probably.

 

[Remioli]

I'm also trying to find the answer to Diddy. Rosa seems like a solid choice, but I was also thinking Sonic or Villager or Sheik.
Sonic just stands up when he spin dashes into a banana. If it's thrown at him, it may make him slip though, I'm not sure.
Villager can pocket the banana and just not use it. I think this makes it so Diddy can't pull another. I've only tried this against computers though, so I'm not sure.
Sheik is just good, and the only character I was even holding up with last time I played a good Diddy. She can potentially grab the ledge and back air him out of up b.

Any thoughts on these theories?

 

[Ffamran]

Diddy, eh? I'm not familiar with him and I'm not a good Falco player by all means, but I think Falco would fare well against him.

Falco's Reflector is a fast interrupter. Seriously, it interrupts Sonic's spins, Ganondorf's Flame Choke, and it even cancels out Zelda's Din's Fire - strict timing on this. As a reflector, it would make Diddy's Peanut Popgun ineffective and, I guess, his Bananas would be reflected as well, but you'd have to be close.

Falco's Blaster sort of works as an interrupter, but it needs to be precise since Falco for whatever reason, has a slow ending animation for putting away a freaking Blaster. It's not rocket science!

Falco Phantasm could be a decent way to get in. Short hop it and avoid the banana.

Fighting-wise, you're gonna have to ask one of Falco's bakers. I'm just an errand boy compared to them.

Ganondorf's slow, but powerful. Diddy would have to get in close to do serious damage and if Ganondorf can time, judge distances, and avoid Diddy's Monkey Flip and other approaches, it'd be a wait and bait game for him and Ike who could work the same thing, but Ike's more mobile and has more range along with a counter that would punish a Monkey Flip kick. Still, Ganondorf doesn't have much to deal with projectiles and getting rid of that banana peel is going to be a problem for him.

 

[NairWizard]

The best way to beat Diddy is to not get grabbed. 90% of Diddy's setups involve grabs: he doesn't have a banana combo game in this game, so he needs to get you in the air to combo. Up-air, f-air, and aerial monkey flip are all terrifying, and up-tilt and up-smash can kill, so you absolutely do not want to end up in the air against Diddy. The best way to avoid getting in the air above Diddy is to avoid getting grabbed. Diddy's dash grab is very good, and he will use his banana to scare you into shielding so that you get caught by a rogue dash grab.

The reason that Rosalina is a strong counter to Diddy is that Luma can hit Diddy away whenever he grabs her (well, GP against the banana helps too). So keep that in mind as you play against him with other characters. You don't have Luma, so you can't afford to get grabbed. Often this will mean going for the grab first rather than attacking. Attacks can be shieldgrabbed; grabs cannot.

Jtails did beat Dabuz at Xanadu, though--hard enough that Dabuz switched from Rosalina to Sheik--and Dabuz also had a fairly close set with Tyrant's Diddy Kong. While Rosalina wins the MU, it doesn't look unwinnable if the Diddy Kong plays patiently. I think that Diddy will be top 3 on many tier lists for a long time to come, but I also think that there are characters who are better, at least with customs enabled.

 

[Conda]

Btw been trying to find an answer to this, due to recent mii interest:

Is there a regulation yet actually in place at tournaments regarding Miis and their size limitations? Miis have been used at tournaments but I'm not sure if the players had to stick with a certain height and weight.

I know there's been talk about it, but is it an actual rule so far?

 

[Jigglymaster]

Btw been trying to find an answer to this, due to recent mii interest:

Is there a regulation yet actually in place at tournaments regarding Miis and their size limitations? Miis have been used at tournaments but I'm not sure if the players had to stick with a certain height and weight.

I know there's been talk about it, but is it an actual rule so far?

The tournaments I go to here in NJ allow Custom moves and Mii Fighters, and there are no restrictions on what their height/weight should be. My Brawler specifically is Middle Weight and a tad bit on the short side, but not to the extreme. Since APEX is also in NJ, i'm assuming that the rules are probably going to be the same.

 

[HiNiTe]

Regarding the Mii Fighters' weight, it's not too much of a difference. 97, 100, and 102 are (from what I recall) their weight values in small, medium and large sizes respectively. It might not matter too much, but making a large Mii could have other properties that I'm unaware of. Does the actual physical size of a Mii change if it's large, as well as their hurtbox? I never bothered testing this since I have no interest in Miis.

Also, a bit unrelated, but the Wii U and 3DS supply a default set of Miis if you don't want to use ones you created or you happen not to have created one. The legality of Mii Fighters can be aided with these default ones. The default Miis provided are all the same weight, being medium sized or 100. But their legality isn't really to be discussed here, I guess, but just some food for thought.

 

[Loota]

Would it be correct to assume piercing aura sphere just goes through stuff and that's its main property?

I feel like in neutral, it's hard for quite a lot of campy characters to do anything against Rosaluma because of the GP which is covering her 90% of the time (I saw a match between fox and Rosaluma and fox just starts shooting for 10 seconds straight and Rosalina's just sitting there and at the end of it had taken a grand total of 0% with the luma minimally damaged). The uses for these projectiles will be rarer than normal and will be used in edge-guarding to dorce a reaction but even then considering the cooldown lag on things such as AS (which isn't a lot, mind you), Rosaluma might still be able to GP on reaction and get away with it unpunished.

GP is actually the bane of my existence in this game. More like GG.

Welp.

Yeah, it goes through everything but in addition to that, it's much faster and charges faster too. It also sends opponents at a more horizontal angle making it more effective for gimping. The downsides are a lower knockback and not being as damaging as the others.

I agree that using projectiles against Rosalina is definitely harder and rarer because of GP. I'd still argue that especially piercing AS is still very much useful at mid range when it will hit Rosalina if she commits to basically anything which makes Lucario's neutral game noticeably easier (not saying it's in either character's favour since I don't really knooow...!) than without it. But yeah, at long range it isn't reliable at all like all other projectiles in the game I guess. On edgeguarding it basically serves as to force reactions as you said, it has to be respected for it's speed and horizontal knockback.

While we're at it, does someone know if absorbing a really long range force palm cause a reaction comparable to the Corneria cannon glitch? I'm scared of the thought.

...but even then he has a strong jab...

To quote yourself:

wh-

bu-

gu-

In other words, it's awful I'd argue it belongs just above the worst ones in the game as it isn't cancelable to anything (it takes like a second for you being able to move after jab 1), it's not particularly fast and the combo itself isn't reliable at all. It does do respectable damage when the whole combo hits but I'd rather use a grounded dair (or ftilt or dtilt) on most situations that he has followups to.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Link and Toon Links implement zair into their game in Brawl, for sure. In both cases they tend not to get much use out of it against shorter characters. Rosalina's tallllll though.

So... I'm just imagining those characters using their god given tools like any master of their character would? It's nothing new.
Depends on how much hitstun it does to Luma really, but then Rosalina will put Luma and longer distances than their zairs for walling probably.

I mean sure, but there are clear trade-offs for placing Luma at a distance when you're playing Rosalina. I use zair vs. Rosa with ZSS and if she tries to do that, my other tools become more reliable up close. I don't imagine it's much different for Link and Toon Link.

If anything, Diddy's set to become the next Brawl Meta Knight.

Um.

No character in Smash 4 comes close to being like Brawl Meta Knight.

I'm not saying there couldn't eventually be a few characters that stand out above the rest, but MK is a completely different story.

When people say this I get the impression they didn't follow Brawl very closely at all. When talking about what made MK OP it's difficult to even know where to begin because everything was so good. Even if he had a weakness, he often made up for it in spades in other areas. Diddy is well-rounded and powerful, but he is prone to being outplayed like everyone else. You can eat his recovery and gimp him, you can get in on him and then trap his landings or recovery. You can use his items against him. You can spot dodge his side-b and punish him. You can't really outplay a good MK because he is always out of reach waiting for you to commit and if he's in range his options just beat yours every time. MK's air speed is slow but it didn't matter because he could glide and just nado past everything for free. He was light but his recovery and serviceable momentum cancel plus the relative difficulty of even hitting him made it very hard to kill him. And so forth.

There's not (so far! knock on wood) a character in Smash 4 to which there just is no answer. When we find that character you can start comparing them to MK.

Btw been trying to find an answer to this, due to recent mii interest:

Is there a regulation yet actually in place at tournaments regarding Miis and their size limitations? Miis have been used at tournaments but I'm not sure if the players had to stick with a certain height and weight.

I know there's been talk about it, but is it an actual rule so far?

I can't figure out why people are so concerned about this. The weight differences are clearly visible and easy to account for. It's a variable, sure, but it's not like it's some random or invisible value. You know what you're fighting when you start the match. What's the concern here?

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, Mii weight... honestly doesn't matter that much, in the grand scheme of things. It's a very narrow range of difference in weight, hurtbox size, speed, and range. Yes, even small changes can be appreciated and have a "big impact", but compared to differences in the cast as a whole, it's very tiny.


As for Diddy, I think impressions of him are being somewhat inflated by online lag and controls--specifically the opponent's ability to deal with bananas. Like, if I'm playing online, and someone throws a banana at me in neutral, I'm simply not going to catch it. It's just not happening. (Maybe others can adjust to lag better than me? I can't powershield anything in neutral either, I just get hit.)

Diddy is very strong and multiple offline tourney results show this. But I'm definitely going to wait for WiiU experience before I judge him any farther; true for everyone, but more true for Diddy.

 

[Shaya]

Second edition of my classing, with various comments in mind, most prominently thinking about Close Quarter Combat characters. My own conclusions to that is what I'm roughly calling heavyweights/grapplers are the 'heavy' versions of CQC in a lot of ways. Someone's very choice comment that "CQC characters should have issues getting in, but once in are devastating" really does ring true with all the 'grapplers' I listed.

Close Quarter Combat Class:


I moved Ike out of heavy hybrids. He does really fit the CQC type, he is quite heavy though, but he really doesn't stop outside his classs capabilities by any stretch other than the disjoints/range, but shulk has this too, hmm... Kirby Kirby are you a back air spacer? I haven't seen anyone play kirby at all this game and I feel like he's naturally a bit of a lightweight grappler which screamssss CQC to me. I think WiiU will give us better indication if the character has GUTS.

Heavyweight / Grappler Class:

I'd still like to maintain this type of distinction, perhaps with an awful bias, due to the characters within it. They really do seem to be their own in terms of just crazy damage and kill power, but suffer with size and/or mobility shortages.

Heavy Hybrids:

Basically skewed weaknesses with strengths of other classes. "Kinda stupid" usually covers it (don't harp on me, I don't think Link is stupid... yet).

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Class:

No one seemed to disagree with this last time, AWESOME. I would say the word 'fragile' kinda covers them a bit. Out of all other character types, I would find them attacking in the air most often, or at least that is where some of their most potent actions lie.

Zone Breaking / Rush Down Class:

Usually excelling at everything, having means of ignoring or negating zoning. Mobility seems to be mostly staple to their abilities. The CQC creation does clear things up a bit, although these people tend to have amazing CQC options, holy crap. At the very least they tend not to get huge rewards from single hits, but that doesn't matter, they just keep hitting you! Could be an overloaded class; ness/falco are kinda slow, pika/sheik can out camp even the long-range characters, and diddy is constantly throwing **** at you. gah.

Mid Range Zoning Class:


Long Range Zoning Class:


So these classifications are potentially more bogus than last time, but a distinction that came up that struck a cord was "these characters will choose not fighting you over fighting; positional advantage [i.e. in neutral] is the goal at all times as you tack on damage while you do it, very easily", and where some end up lying is a bit of bias. Robin and Zelda will both sit back at long range and not care, but I really don't think Zelda gets anything out of it against anyone (side b is way too easy to avoid and punish [although maybe customs improve this]). I ended up throwing WFT in Mid range zoner, I still have really no idea. Does Duck Hunt's feel more like a long range character to you? Does Toon Link's camp seem a lot weaker this game hence more focus on him fighting?
My logic in short: Fighting you while throwing **** vs I'M BUILDING MY SAND CASTLE [fortress] DAD, TELL ME ITS THE BEST YOU'VE EVER SEEN.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Class:

No one seemed to disagree with this last time, AWESOME. I would say the word 'fragile' kinda covers them a bit. Out of all other character types, I would find them attacking in the air most often, or at least that is where some of their most potent actions lie.

Do you not think of ZSS as a hybrid between spacing and rushdown?

If she lands a paralyzer or otherwise scores a hit, she can stay on you for quite a while and punish you pretty hard for making certain defensive choices.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

Second edition of my classing, with various comments in mind, most prominently thinking about Close Quarter Combat characters. My own conclusions to that is what I'm roughly calling heavyweights/grapplers are the 'heavy' versions of CQC in a lot of ways. Someone's very choice comment that "CQC characters should have issues getting in, but once in are devastating" really does ring true with all the 'grapplers' I listed.

Close Quarter Combat Class:


I moved Ike out of heavy hybrids. He does really fit the CQC type, he is quite heavy though, but he really doesn't stop outside his classs capabilities by any stretch other than the disjoints/range, but shulk has this too, hmm... Kirby Kirby are you a back air spacer? I haven't seen anyone play kirby at all this game and I feel like he's naturally a bit of a lightweight grappler which screamssss CQC to me. I think WiiU will give us better indication if the character has GUTS.

Heavyweight / Grappler Class:

I'd still like to maintain this type of distinction, perhaps with an awful bias, due to the characters within it. They really do seem to be their own in terms of just crazy damage and kill power, but suffer with size and/or mobility shortages.

Heavy Hybrids:

Basically skewed weaknesses with strengths of other classes. "Kinda stupid" usually covers it (don't harp on me, I don't think Link is stupid... yet).

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Class:

No one seemed to disagree with this last time, AWESOME. I would say the word 'fragile' kinda covers them a bit. Out of all other character types, I would find them attacking in the air most often, or at least that is where some of their most potent actions lie.

Zone Breaking / Rush Down Class:

Usually excelling at everything, having means of ignoring or negating zoning. Mobility seems to be mostly staple to their abilities. The CQC creation does clear things up a bit, although these people tend to have amazing CQC options, holy crap. At the very least they tend not to get huge rewards from single hits, but that doesn't matter, they just keep hitting you! Could be an overloaded class; ness/falco are kinda slow, pika/sheik can out camp even the long-range characters, and diddy is constantly throwing **** at you. gah.

Mid Range Zoning Class:


Long Range Zoning Class:


So these classifications are potentially more bogus than last time, but a distinction that came up that struck a cord was "these characters will choose not fighting you over fighting; positional advantage [i.e. in neutral] is the goal at all times as you tack on damage while you do it, very easily", and where some end up lying is a bit of bias. Robin and Zelda will both sit back at long range and not care, but I really don't think Zelda gets anything out of it against anyone (side b is way too easy to avoid and punish [although maybe customs improve this]). I ended up throwing WFT in Mid range zoner, I still have really no idea. Does Duck Hunt's feel more like a long range character to you? Does Toon Link's camp seem a lot weaker this game hence more focus on him fighting?
My logic in short: Fighting you while throwing **** vs I'M BUILDING MY SAND CASTLE [fortress] DAD, TELL ME ITS THE BEST YOU'VE EVER SEEN.

Wouldn't really call Kirby a grappler this time around. We hardly have any combos from grabs. Basically just fthrow into fair on some characters of they don't DI, and bthrow into bair on very few characters. Our combos come from setting up from tilts and aerial combat. Our back air is still decent for spacing' but we have a nice nair for setups now. Pretty much all of Kirby's moves are punishable on shield too it seems.

 

[Shaya]

I contrasted her to Sheik (could be a bad habit) and felt that she's still mostly playing a spacing game, even with the likes of paralyzer. All of the precision characters tend to get big rewards for their hard work, Zamus is definitely one of them. She obviously has a lot of rush down specs (dash attack + paralyzer stuff), but she's falling out to other characters if she's not fighting with her range advantage in mind; furthermore I don't feel she has the close range capabilities of Falco, Fox, Sheik, Pikachu, nor does she just go "lalalala" to negate Megaman (as an example)

Wouldn't really call Kirby a grappler this time around. We hardly have any combos from grabs. Basically just fthrow into fair on some characters of they don't DI, and bthrow into bair on veryvery few characters. Or combos come from setting up from tilts and air combat.

I have a hard time calling Oli a long-ranger too due to their underwhelming status, but their designs seem to point in that direction, and if we play brawl-pretend, they're definitely proper contenders for those classes. Otherwise Kirby may align better with spacers.

 

[GrnFzzTgr]

@Reserved said it best. "Kirby is designed as an offensive character but was nerfed into a defensive one" if we pay very aggro we get very badly punished for it. We can't really approach, its best for is us to wait and bait, but once we get attacks in we can usually build up some nice damage with our comboes. Grabbing an enemy kind of leaves us in an awkward position since we can't do much after a throw in smash 4.

We have a lot of stuff up on the Kirby boards. Go have a look. I'm going to admit I'm fairly recently into the competative scene. But I'm learning from those folks. @Reserved, @Asdioh and of course @t!MmY are most certainly better than I am.

That said, I think I have to agree with reserved. Some characters may function differently than how they were apparently designed.

On another note, IIRC Kirby had a decent grappling game in brawl? It's been years since I touched that game. Never played PM, and was dissapointed with Kirby in melee.

Also, sorry for my bad typing. I'm doing this from a phone.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Kirby isn't grab based but neither is little Mac. Kirby gets his invitation and puts up 12-20% strings. Ff Fair spike dtilt trip grab pummel uthrow.

Hard to call Kirby a spacer when he has like no range outside of a copy ability/wave cutter. Though he might be able to get away with retreating fairs on shield.

 

[Shaya]

Kirby's dash grab was one of the best/fastest/scariest, how he perpetually wrecked you after landing a grab was pretty much his core game plan.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Was. They're like a combo finisher because they don't lead into anything other than an edgeguard situation. Which can be iffy.
Might as well being up I think Kirby has a good jab, fast good range relative to everything else.

 

[sunset_raven]

Maybe Tink with 1 second screw-gravity bombs?

I'll take a look at it. Thanks.

I think [LINK REMOVED] Is the best thing right now for the interface etc... It's really easy to do matches and you select things in the right order, don't need to know the rules etc.
[LINK REMOVED] Is the better for competitive imo but nothing is automatic like the other. I would play all the time if it had the interface of the other.

I wonder how many people are from South America in those sites... Besides, Wii U is pretty expensive here... Complicated getting a console for one game (not that the platform doesn't have good games, it's just that I don't have enough time). Any idea if it will be possible to cross play? That would be nice.

On the Mii subject. I'd love that it would be allowed on For Glory... Gunner seems like what Samus wanted to be, but just isn't.

Link and Toon Links implement zair into their game in Brawl, for sure. In both cases they tend not to get much use out of it against shorter characters. Rosalina's tallllll though.

So... I'm just imagining those characters using their god given tools like any master of their character would? It's nothing new.
Depends on how much hitstun it does to Luma really, but then Rosalina will put Luma and longer distances than their zairs for walling probably.

Following this trail of thought, Tink and Link would have to adjust and get closer. At that point, I see Link as being better against her. TInk's range isn't that good (could be outfootsied by Rosa), and his aerials have lots of ending lag (I know that Tink should have a bomb to BLC at any time, but easier said than done).

@ Shaya : Yeah, I agree with the distinction. Having a projectile doesn't equate to being a keepaway character. I actually feel Tink's keepaway as very strong, with options up close.

I don't know much about Cap. Falcon, but he strikes me as a rushdown character. Has to get close, but once close, will hand your ass in a silver platter.

TBH, I prefer separating them as keepaway, rushdown, footsie, balanced, grappler. Zone breaking would be a group within others... And Pika/Sheik deserve to be "Akuma class". They simply don't fit anywhere.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Anybody got any tips on Sheik and Kirby. I'm good with Link and confident with Pit, but I can't seem to match up right when I pick Sheik or Kirby. Moreso with Kirby, and I don't want to drop them, they are so fun to use.

 

[KenMeister]

Anybody got any tips on Sheik and Kirby. I'm good with Link and confident with Pit, but I can't seem to match up right when I pick Sheik or Kirby. Moreso with Kirby, and I don't want to drop them, they are so fun to use.

Eh, this is most definitely not the place to be asking that. I'd go to the character specific forums if you want answers to those questions.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Second edition of my classing, with various comments in mind, most prominently thinking about Close Quarter Combat characters. My own conclusions to that is what I'm roughly calling heavyweights/grapplers are the 'heavy' versions of CQC in a lot of ways. Someone's very choice comment that "CQC characters should have issues getting in, but once in are devastating" really does ring true with all the 'grapplers' I listed.

Close Quarter Combat Class:


I moved Ike out of heavy hybrids. He does really fit the CQC type, he is quite heavy though, but he really doesn't stop outside his classs capabilities by any stretch other than the disjoints/range, but shulk has this too, hmm... Kirby Kirby are you a back air spacer? I haven't seen anyone play kirby at all this game and I feel like he's naturally a bit of a lightweight grappler which screamssss CQC to me. I think WiiU will give us better indication if the character has GUTS.

Heavyweight / Grappler Class:

I'd still like to maintain this type of distinction, perhaps with an awful bias, due to the characters within it. They really do seem to be their own in terms of just crazy damage and kill power, but suffer with size and/or mobility shortages.

Heavy Hybrids:

Basically skewed weaknesses with strengths of other classes. "Kinda stupid" usually covers it (don't harp on me, I don't think Link is stupid... yet).

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Class:

No one seemed to disagree with this last time, AWESOME. I would say the word 'fragile' kinda covers them a bit. Out of all other character types, I would find them attacking in the air most often, or at least that is where some of their most potent actions lie.

Zone Breaking / Rush Down Class:

Usually excelling at everything, having means of ignoring or negating zoning. Mobility seems to be mostly staple to their abilities. The CQC creation does clear things up a bit, although these people tend to have amazing CQC options, holy crap. At the very least they tend not to get huge rewards from single hits, but that doesn't matter, they just keep hitting you! Could be an overloaded class; ness/falco are kinda slow, pika/sheik can out camp even the long-range characters, and diddy is constantly throwing **** at you. gah.

Mid Range Zoning Class:


Long Range Zoning Class:


So these classifications are potentially more bogus than last time, but a distinction that came up that struck a cord was "these characters will choose not fighting you over fighting; positional advantage [i.e. in neutral] is the goal at all times as you tack on damage while you do it, very easily", and where some end up lying is a bit of bias. Robin and Zelda will both sit back at long range and not care, but I really don't think Zelda gets anything out of it against anyone (side b is way too easy to avoid and punish [although maybe customs improve this]). I ended up throwing WFT in Mid range zoner, I still have really no idea. Does Duck Hunt's feel more like a long range character to you? Does Toon Link's camp seem a lot weaker this game hence more focus on him fighting?
My logic in short: Fighting you while throwing **** vs I'M BUILDING MY SAND CASTLE [fortress] DAD, TELL ME ITS THE BEST YOU'VE EVER SEEN.

How is Lucario a heavy hybrid? He's about as middleweight as you can get. I'd also probably move Ness into the Midrange Spacing/Precision class, though I admit I'm not an expert on him. Most of the other classifications I can kind of understand even if I might classify them differently.