Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

I'm actually not talking about archetypes such as Greninja and Sheik or Ike and Shulk. I'm talking about flat-out character superiority. Greninja is better than Captain Falcon: there may be matchups where Falcon does a little better because of his dash grab or his up-air juggling, but for the most part you can say that Greninja executing his gameplan is scarier than Falcon executing his gameplan. You needn't go into their specific matchups (I mean, you can if you want) when it's so obvious at a glance at their movesets that there's more to fear from Greninja than there is to fear from Captain Falcon other than Falcon's grab. Shurikens, hydro pump gimps, Greninja's generally low profile (which makes hitting him extremely difficult), and Greninja's ability to escape are way scarier than anything Captain Falcon has (OK, side-b being a kill move is scary).

How you play or execute doesn't matter, imo. What you're good at is what matters.

I understand what you're saying, but it's incorrect. This is only how fighting games - any fighting game - appears when it first comes out. As time passes, we'll be more experienced and knowledgeable about how each character's traits and quirks make them match up well or unfavourably against different characters.

Right now, we just have "rush down", "spammer", "Puppetmaster", and other basic archetypes. As the meta develops, it'll get more complex. We'll also have more meta development for other characters that allows characters to be used creatively, giving them a different presence compared to other similar characters.

Currently, we are actively ignoring many characters and not developing their metas, which will further prevent them from developing a meta that can potentially allow them to compete. We are creating underdogs just because there are some currently more shiny characters to talk about that have made their splash so far. Yeah, Rosa and Sheik are strong, but their meta is also exponentially more developed than, for example, Metaknight or Toon Link.


Encouraging us to continue thinking in the vague way we do now isn't a good idea. The tunnel-vision into the perceived top-10 is hurting the metagame, but also community discussion. It's clear that an echo-chamber-esque discussion thread is not indicative that the meta has developed, especially when the game has been out for 1-2 months and we've barely seen any tournaments.

We also need to be careful when we speak about characters - if we are going off our own critical thoughts about how good/bad they are, or what we've seen on streams. Streams are not everything.

Literally tomorrow Ness could be played on a stream, and could be played badly, and everyone would bandwagon that he is in fact horrible. This is the kind of thing we have to avoid, which I can't really say has been happening.

 

[SonicZeroX]

It's gonna be really funny if in a year from now the tier list comes out and Falcon is way above Greninja.

It probably would have been a better idea to compare two actually similar characters like Marth and Lucina.

 

[The Real Gamer]

@ NairWizard

Character superiority and character diversity are two completely different things.

You blatently stated lesser used characers are harder to discuss because they play too similarly to superior characters, which doesn't make sense.

I think what you meant to say was that lesser characters are difficult to assess since the "better" characers have superior options, which makes more sense.

 

[NairWizard]

@ NairWizard

Character superiority and character diversity are two completely different things.

You blatently stated lesser used characers are harder to discuss because they play too similarly to superior characters, which doesn't make sense.

I think what you meant to say was that lesser characters are difficult to assess since the "better" characers have superior options, which makes more sense.

Not that they play too similarly, but that their movesets are too similar. Diversity of gameplay execution (and of animation) and diversity of option selects are two majorly different things. Having a diversity of options is the best (though not only) way to be superior to another character in smash.

Pikachu vs. Game and Watch is a great example of this in Brawl. Why did Pikachu get better on tier lists over time while Game and Watch got worse (and no, ESAM is not an answer--though it is kinda true)? Because Pikachu has more options. Some of Game and Watch's smashes and so on are too slow to be viable options out of neutral and out of simple setups. He has to do the same old tired b-air/n-air to grab d-throw d-smash and d-air/up-air in the air garbage every single match. Pikachu on the other hand just kept getting more and more options: quick attack locks, platform cancels, a tilt game that can work against Meta Knight, b-air edgeguards, etc.

Characters with more and better options are flat out better because that layout I provided earlier is crucial. You need options to create space--you need that safe f-tilt. You need an option to cover rolls--you need that fast d-smash. If you don't have these tools you are worse than characters who do. Everyone has a good jab and dash attack in this game--I don't see the point in saying "oh hey look Character X has a great jab and a great dash attack!" Because sure, he has that, but another character has that and 10 other useful qualities. What can character X do that no one else can do? We should be looking for lower-tier characters who can do things that no one else can do, even the top tiers. If Bowser with customs happens to be the only character who can beat Rosalina (random example; it's not true...or is it? mwahaha), then we should be discussing that, or trying to discover that. Maybe our current approach will lead us in that direction eventually though.

 

[NairWizard]

It's gonna be really funny if in a year from now the tier list comes out and Falcon is way above Greninja.

It probably would have been a better idea to compare two actually similar characters like Marth and Lucina.

Pardon the double post but for the record I will eat my own shoe if this happens.

@ Conda , To the contrary, I think that character gaps actually get worse as time goes by. Characters with fewer options are going to become less and less usable, not more, because people will know how to deal with the limited options that those characters do have.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think it's a bit early and hard to look for that when we don't even have optimal controls, especially char specific tech. I also think it's always going to be a problem in Smash which is why the top tiers in this game, or so it seems, can do a lot but not as much as the top tiers of previous games comparatively. I'm guessing the devs took notes too...

 

[The Real Gamer]

Not that they play too similarly, but that their movesets are too similar. Diversity of gameplay execution (and of animation) and diversity of option selects are two majorly different things. Having a diversity of options is the best (though not only) way to be superior to another.

This is worded much better and I don't disagree.

Id offer more but I'm phone posting from work

 

[Conda]

Pardon the double post but for the record I will eat my own shoe if this happens.

@ Conda , To the contrary, I think that character gaps actually get worse as time goes by. Characters with fewer options are going to become less and less usable, not more, because people will know how to deal with the limited options that those characters do have.

My point was that we are not even discussing many characters to discover what their options are. We are talking about characters as of we already know what's up with all of them -- as if we've fully realised what options they have and how they measure up to other characters.

My other point was that, as a Sheik player, you can improve your game a ton thanks to how often we talk about her, making there more good Sheik players out there. But if you main a less popular character, then tough luck - nobody cares to talk about them. This leads to a lower chance that we as a community understand what their options are, let alone whether or not their options are better or worse than other characters'.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Okay, time for bias-mobile 101 being used as the basis for debate. Bare with me.
This is a personal list of 15 characters in this game which I feel are either very strong, have polarising (or new mechanics we haven't learned to deal with) match up strengths or are seemingly popular/common in tournament thus far (or some combination of all three).

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Phew, that was really hard. I know some common popular picks like Greninja and Fox are not there, and as many people know from my opinions I think etc are all good and feasibly top 15. But that doesn't matter.
Wait.. why over Fox? Have you seen his reflector? Shuts down several characters in the cast to possibly hard-counter levels with just a single move (Olimar especially, Villager). If you're a character with a projectile reliant game, I wouldn't be surprised if you struggle dealing with him.
is all new jank, and it was hard for me to think whether or not Duck Hunt kinda takes his cake in terms of relevancy. Both feel like they've dropped off the Earth tournament wise other than first week impressions.

Otherwise, let's not argue too much about that 15 if we can avoid it. I think it's pretty diverse in covering a lot of things.

So, how do you think about your character in relation to the above 15?

I could pick a name out of the hat if you'd like, if we all try go through the door at the same time, things could be bad.

I'll cover 4 different characters for this. , I'll cover Peach first then work on the others later.

= Peach is good at exploiting the space between Bowser and Peach. Using Float gives her a lot of good shield pressure and combo potential. Gimping and set-ups are pretty good on the Peach Side. Why is this even? Bowser hits like a truck and is a lot better at raw air mobility over stalling falling in the air. Peach can't kill particularly solid but she can exploit Bowser really badly, but if she makes a mistake she's gonna die fast.

? I don't have enough experience in this. It was close to even in Brawl, Diddy won out by a little bit. A lot of things changed so I need more experience before I can judge this.

=< I think she wins, but barely. DHD has the tools to wall out but up close and when Peach can get her hits in she can actually kill him reasonably. The issue is how much can she deal with can and his plates. I think she can do both in this MU.

= I think Falco got nerfed, Peach had the tools in Melee to make it even, she lost in Brawl she she couldn't deal with up close tools. Here? Not entirely sure but I thing underestimating Falco's up close game is a mistake. This is the exact thing that she struggled with in Brawl. Losing Lasers isn't really going to affect Falco that much, that isn't what made him win the MU in Brawl it was his up close options and hitboxes. I'm calling this even til I see otherwise. I can see it going either way depending how each character develops but I think saying, Falco loses cause he got overnerfed, is a mistake.

< This is absolutely in Peach's favor. Float gives her the ability to abbuse Lil'Mac's inability to deal with an aerial fight, while being able to hit him safely from a float in which his options to punish her are limited. She can go very far out to gimp him off stage. Turnips give an ability to camp if need be and set-up safe ways for her to get in when she needs to make a move.

>>>>>> I refuse to believe Peach win this at all. Yes Peach has some better hitboxes and Lucario's got worse, Aura in general screws her over so bad. Now that his Side B can harass her from a distance and in the air while he can not really be killed early with his recovery being so buffed. She can win this reasonably, but man on paper playing both characters this sounds hard.

< Every smash iteration has shown me Peach v Samus in some shape or form is close to even. There is one thing Mii gunner is missing, a zair, a missle game that can make her be extremely careful when to float and the recovery to go out and harass Peach. Don't get me wrong, this MU looks obnoxious, but is played patently Peach will win. Turnips with float can guide around Mii Gunners movesets.


? I can't give a solid stance on this MU in Smash 4. I know Ness was buffed a lot in Smash 4 but I'm trying to think how this would play out now. Unsure literally have not played against a Ness in Smash 4 even with all the for glory matches under my belt or with friends.

=?I'm not sure here either. I want to say it would be evenish, but I need to think more about what Robin is capable of. Arc Fire, Peach can work around that. Thunder? that I'm not sure or his aerials in terms of KO potential or on the ground. I'll delve on this and come back to this later. I have soe experience but just not certain where that leads to.

= or > Peach can float to work around Luma while also applying safe harass. The issue is how much she can be killed early and Rosalina's pretty disjointed aerials. It's either even or in Rosalina's favor.

>=I think this is barely in Sheik's favor but still not favorable for Peach. Sheik has an earlier time getting a hit in and being able to dance around and or edgeguard with her bair or Uair. Sheik can KO Peach a lot more reliably as well so she needs to maneuver herself a lot better to avoid this while Sheik really doesn't have to worry about it as much.

= This looks and sounds just as obnoxious as it was in Brawl. Neither character kills earlier, making the move first sounds and looks just as stupid. This match is going to take forever with both trying to bait the other out into making a mistake to get their hit. It's even...but incredibly tedious on both sides.

< Villager's Fair and Bair hitting Peach out of float is something but I don't that that would do much to Peach if she saves her float til she is right on top of Villager. Tree is a thing but she just needs to remember the %s til she can knock it out and what she can hit it with. When she can, this MU is a lot easier for her.

>So take away the things Peach could do in Brawl safely, harassing shield, eggs not hitting at a lower angle, KO power of Yoshi not quite enough to make a different. And then improve that all for Yoshi, and then Peach cries because she struggles at getting a good solid hit and without Yoshi doing something back in return. He got buffed in the right areas to win this solidly.

= She got buffed in areas but I don't think it's enough to make this her favor now. Her New UpB is a lot scarier than her old one, but her recovery still is an area Peach can try and exploit. Turnips are better to force a good mid game than ZSS's Paralyzer shots. Overall I think it's even or evenish, just not really pushing too hard either way.

is next.

 

[PK Gaming]

Robin vs Shaya's threats? Sure, why not.

Vs. Bowser doesn't have the mobility to get in his/her face and pressure him, leaving him susceptible to getting spaced out by Robin's projectiles. Robin doesn't have the advantage per say (if Bowser is within filt range, he can do some heavy damage), but it's not a particularly difficult matchup. Much more manageable if you have Thoron+.

Vs. Diddy straight up destroys Robin. He no sells projectiles, easily rushes him/her down, and abuses Robin's lacklustre recovery. Bad matchup.

Vs. Don't have much experience / haven't seen much of this matchup. It's probably not that hard.

Vs. I face a decent Falco occasionally. He'll destroy you in close quarters combat, can deter Thoron charging and even has a reflector. Probably a disadvantage.

Vs. Definitely a problematic matchup, but not as bad as one might think. Robin's options at close range are limited (it's nearly impossible to grab punish little mac), so you're forced punish him with your jabs. Little Mac destroys you in neutral, but luckily for Robin, you can actually limit his options with ArcFire (since Mac is typically rooted to the ground; he's vulnerable if he jumps). If you can get a decent amount of damage on him and knock him off stage, you can secure an early KO with Nair. Difficult to matchup to play, imo.

Vs. Don't have much experience / haven't seen much of this matchup. It's probably hard.

Vs. No data x_x

Vs. It's very bad. Easily in Ness's favor.

Vs. She's a top tier fighter, so a difficult matchup is expected. I don't think it's ASbad as Ness or Diddy, however. Sonic Storm has a nice assessment of the matchup HERE

Vs.

The worst, most awful, most tragic and Despair Inducing matchup for me. Sheik obliterates Robin. She neuters Thoron, (which is Robin's best tool), she kills him/her on neutral, she easily edgeguards him... there is very, very, very little Robin can do in this matchup. Bad, BAD, B-A-D matchup.

Vs. Another agile fighter, another painful matchup (starting to notice a pattern?). Sonic quickly rushes in and punish most of your mistakes, and play in a opportunistic matter in which he slowly (but surely) builds up damage against you. You can't limit his options with arcfire, but at least he has to come to you due to Thoron.

Vs. Your guess is as good as mine.

Vs. He's faster than you, his normals have more range, he does a ton of damage... he's Superman, and you're basically thug with a gun. Disadvantage.

Vs. Another incredibly difficult matchup. She'll beat the crap out of you in neutral, and kill you for free off stage. The only saving grace is that her grab isn't fast (don't get me wrong, it's still a better grab than Robin's)

 

[Yokoblue]

So if I resume the last 2 posts, Peach and Robin aren't top 10 material at all ?

 

[Luco]

Something i've been thinking about as i've been away for about a week visiting peeps in the country...

I've noticed many people have mentioned, since the very beginning that certain character kill moves feel 'nerfed'. And at first I was very inclined to agree... but i'm beginning to wonder more and more whether it's actually that those moves have been nerfed/buffed significantly or actually whether vectoring has played a crucial role in our perception of killing in this game.

For many characters, I think the 'kill power nerf' hasn't been a specific nerf to their character; but the introduction of vectoring has made killing harder for characters around the board and has put an increased emphasis on being able to kill.

And I think that because of that, our early impressions of our characters have actually been affected by some bias because we were only able to focus on them so early on and not on the fact that most everyone found it a tad harder to kill.

I'm not saying that it means something huge; but more that perhaps our perceptions of how our characters changed from Brawl; and in turn, how this would affect their tier placement, is at some level flawed.

Then again I haven't read the last 10 pages so maybe this has become obvious and I don't need to mention it.

Sorry if it sounds a bit hard to read ^

tl;dr - We shouldn't base our opinions on how our characters changed from previous games so much; because vectoring has lead to a very different meta that places a certain emphasis on being able to kill. With many characters having slightly weaker kill options, this may not be such an incredible factor in your character's viability... or it might be the other way around, with characters who can kill being very, very strong. I'm not so sure about that with sheik around, but who knows?

Also at some point i'll make a post going over Ness and Shaya's 15 janky top tier powerful or otherwise unexplored characters.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

@ Shaya I asked Raziek about Robin vs Peach, he thinks she gets tracks because if he has levin sword he can threaten her in the air is strong aerial KOs while having thoron and arc fire actually being more useful than I gave it credit for.

 

[Nabbitnator]

can someone explain to me the strengths of villager that make him a strong competitor please?

 

[Conda]

So if I resume the last 2 posts, Peach and Robin aren't top 10 material at all ?

If you want to take things without a grain of salt. You have to keep in mind these are impressions, and a lot of them are made from seeing a couple sets.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Peach can float right over Arcfire and Turnip stops any not-Thoron charge cold. Levin Uair beats Dair, which is a godsend, but that's about it as far as going against the float game. Ftilt does beat Crown Smack and Nair, but Peach should not be floating in a position where can get swatted by it.

And have fun getting back from the ledge against a Peach that knows what to do with her floats. The matchups doable, but oh lordy be prepared for the long haul.

Also matchup is in the "He should have a weakness to Electric attacks goddammit" tier . And is what made me hate Texas as a scene.

 

[Luco]

So... and the 15:

- I feel as if Bowser will be Ness' favour if only a little. Our game capitalises on a strong mid-range game that leads into a fantastic combo game. Bowser has range but as soon as we trap him, big hurtboxes do not help his case when we're Fair-ing him to high heaven. PK Fire also puts him in to such an awkward situation. Heavyweights have traditionally had a harder time dealing with PK Fire and smash 4 has only accentuated this. That said, Bowser is all around rather strong and he doesn't find it very hard to kill us early-ish. Haven't had too much experience with this MU nor seen it played a lot, but that's what I have noticed from my limited experience with it. Input on this would be appreciated.

- It's not that we've been buffed in areas that make this MU far more doable but more that diddy's less campy playstyle means we can actually do a bit more with a little less fear that bananas will make our life so very miserable. I don't know how the air game goes, I honestly don't. Another MU i'm not familiar with, but i'd say at worst it's slightly diddy's favour but I would not be surprised if it was even. On the other hand, because of my inexperience, I would also not be surprised if I was utterly wrong for some reason.

- Ughhhhhhh. Probably even, I don't know, it's annoyingly painful. If he's trying to camp with clay shooting then we actually have a kind of valid reflect at long range, but the can? Like I don't even... I just.. argh. From my experience, we win if we can nullify his camping game, which means we kinda need to play a bit hard and fast and it takes a lot of adaptation to the playstyle as well as the character because his tools can be used in different ways. I love DHD and use them as secondaries but versing them is annoying. I think we're fine in it though.

- Our issue with Falco never stemmed from his camping game, so its nerf has no real value to us. His close up game is still very potent, yet without chain grabs he suffers and gives us a little more room to wiggle. It's falco's favour, but not by more than -1 I think.

- lolno. Okay i'll elaborate. Mac has good speed on the ground and tools to make us have an annoying if not slightly hard ground game. Once we get him into the air though, we outright beat him, really hard. We're one of those characters that can make his air game and offstage game totally miserable and maybe that's why I don't perceive him as top tier. I think at best for him it's a +1 our favour. Probably more. It's a silly match-up, but not because it's actually overly difficult, it just becomes tense at moments and all the other times we're busy walling him out. Soz mac buddy. I respect you, but I don't lose to you.

- this match-up makes me want to go tear my hair out and bash what's left against a brick wall. MY GAWD this match-up is painful and not even close. There are things we can do but when Rosalina gets things her way she REALLY gets things her way. It's a match-up somewhat based around momentum because neutral, long range ground game is one of the few places we can actually "beat" her (it's more beating up on Luma but it seems to cause the Rosalina player some discomfort). We have a solid option in our usual Nair and Fair but offstage is so polarising it's not even funny. Overall, it's not that we don't have options because we do, it just feels as if we don't. Kinda like Lucas vs falco in Brawl which felt like a -2 when it was really only a -1, I think this Mu feels like a -3 but in reality is closer to -2. But that character is broken, yo. GP covering everything? Enjoy hell, campy characters. Enjoy hell. NAKAT recently went against Dabuz with Ness for like a single game and then didn't use Ness again for the rest of winners finals or grand finals. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZufhH52DI0&list=UU5WNBHwgluAwWJE5QV-5_TA

- Not fun either. Sheik has a long range game that we can't do anything about, and her close range game is fantastic. In many cases she solidly walls us out and Nair seems to be one of the few things that works. Our grab game is probably slightly superior but it tends not to matter so much because there's not much we can do reliably to her off of a grab anyway while she just kinda gets in our face. I feel like it's also a -2, not quite so bad as Rosaluma but bad. I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

- I really don't know, but I can only assume it gets worse for us the longer it goes on. We still have solid kill moves but Lucario usually racks up considerable damage and/or kills us before we do. I think it's his favour, but by how much I have no idea. Doesn't stand out as an overly ridiculous MU so i'd be inclined to say -1 but there's room for that to be different. @ #HBC | Red Ryu should be able to shed light on that soon.

- No idea, haven't really played against one. Can't see it being awfully bad or good, but I think his long range (especially that Fair) can disrupt us a little and he probably doesn't suffer against our mid-range game either. Total theory-craft here though, so meah.

- I actually don't think Sonic has it that easy over us, but on the other hand i've been a bit wary about buying into the sonic hype generally. I think he's definitely good, i'm just being cautious about the excitement over him right now. I feel like we can punish him quite well for little mistakes in some areas and in others it's hard to really do too much. From my experience our Nair is very solid in this MU and might be what I think makes it kinda close to even. Sonic doesn't really bother me but I dunno. Very neutral on this MU.

- Yeah Villager's going to have a hard time here. We really counter his camping game and if Villager approaches us, we beat him at close range. Dair and Uair are great for him but they don't change our great OoS options being his bane and his overall game being just that bit subpar against us. I could see it being closer but for the most part I think we win this Mu with a straight up +1 if not more.

- I don't really know, but I think Yoshi wins this a little. I'd be inclined to call @ Z'zgashi for his opinion if he feels like it, otherwise I think Yoshi wins a camping game and his close range game is very strong, strong enough to give us trouble. It's nothing ludicrous, but it's annoying and... yeah.

- Is it just me or does the paralyzer gun take longer to charge? Because healing actually seems relevant in this MU lol! ZSS prefers to approach us and her options are solid but we're not victims here either and can hold our own against her. I think we are okay against the upB but i'm not really sure. Otherwise ZSS and Ness feels evenish to me. Our aerial game feels like a solid answer to hers and although I think we lose ground game, there's not much in it. I also don't see her having too much against us offstage save for rare circumstances and we can harass her offstage which is a boon.

- Oh... forgot about this because I was using PK gaming's list as a format tool hahaha. I agree with him, it's a match-up we win, I don't think it's awful but it's solid. We can really make his camping a pain and once we're in we do a lot of damage. His sub-par grab leaves him not quite as many answers as he rightfully should have. He's not helpless - Levin sword is great and there will be time we'll be put into tough situations, as well as his Elthunder which can surprisingly actually really annoy us... but I think we win it yeah.

- Forget Rosalina and Luma, this MU is on a whole new level of pain. Ness has to deal with crazy grab and combo games that he can only answer by doing the same silly strat, and talk about getting gimped by PSI Magnet! I mean sure it's not as easy as before but who's that ever stopped before!? Besides, what the hell do I get being above Ness anyway? A silly Dair and his Uair is just GODLIKE. Not even kidding, this match-up feels bad and it IS bad. Ness is a -4 against himself for sure. If I could rate it any worse, I would. It's like, -10,000. And you know when I say that, it's a baaaaaaad match-up. When you play this match-up, you can really feel the sad-ness.


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Some of what i've described above ^ is pretty much theorycraft due to a lack of available sources or my own inexperience with some MUs. Feel free to disagree with most of these, some of them I really have no idea and others I only know a few gimmicks which will have informed my bias.

Aside from that Ness one. No room to argue there, we can all agree it's a terribad MU I think.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If Ness can consistently get Bthrow kill and Bair kills offstage he can do well against Lucario, otherwise it can be rough if he can hold onto stocks well.

 

[Conda]

Keep in mind you don't have to give impressions on a matchup that you are not familiar with at all or knowledgeable about. Many people read this to try and learn - give them something to learn, and try not to use very limited information to give people a likely incorrect impression.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Keep in mind you don't have to give impressions on a matchup that you are not familiar with at all or knowledgeable about. Many people read this to try and learn - give them something to learn, and try not to use very limited information to give people a likely incorrect impression.

I can still give as much as I know about it.

 

[Luco]

Keep in mind you don't have to give impressions on a matchup that you are not familiar with at all or knowledgeable about. Many people read this to try and learn - give them something to learn, and try not to use very limited information to give people a likely incorrect impression.

Yeah that's fair. I also agree with Red Ryu though in that if I can give just a little bit then it's probably better than giving nothing. And the idea behind saying 'i'm not too sure on the rest of this MU/what I know' implies you'd like others to take your words with a grain of salt or to be aware that there may very well be more to a MU than you say.

 

[Conda]

I can still give as much as I know about it.

I totally agree, I just mean if someone is going to talk about Mario v Luigi yet they aren't too experienced or knowledgeable about the matchup, prefacing it with "btw I'm not too experienced/knowledgeable about it" is a good idea, or opting out instead. Just to keep the useful information ratio higher, and this thread healthier.

 

[mimgrim]

Once we get him into the air though, we outright beat him, really hard. We're one of those characters that can make his air game and offstage game totally miserable and maybe that's why I don't perceive him as top tier.

That's true for most all of the characters against little Mac to be honest.

The question is, how easy is it to actually get Mac, a good one that plays properly, into the air?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Which page did Shaya even start the 15 character threat thing.

 

[Z'zgashi]

- I don't really know, but I think Yoshi wins this a little. I'd be inclined to call @ Z'zgashi for his opinion if he feels like it, otherwise I think Yoshi wins a camping game and his close range game is very strong, strong enough to give us trouble. It's nothing ludicrous, but it's annoying and... yeah.

= : Ah, the classic Yoshi v Ness match up, practically the same its always been, just Ness got better combos and a better grab release, and Yoshi got a better shield. The neutral game is slightly in Yoshi's favor, the combo/juggling game is pretty even since Ness can combo Yoshi for tons of damage, and Yoshi can juggle Ness pretty well, but Ness kills WAY easier than Yoshi, and much earlier too.

And since I was vague about what I think the match up is, I think its pretty even, maybe VERY slightly in Yoshi's favor (like +0.5 Yoshi at best)

 

[RWB]

I think I should forward this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/

 

[Luco]

That's true for most all of the characters against little Mac to be honest.

The question is, how easy is it to actually get Mac, a good one that plays properly, into the air?

PK Fire seems to eat through his heavy armour for whatever reason. If he gets in close then we have a hard time. Thus why I mentioned it's annoying bordering on difficult there. But even then he's not as big a threat to us as he would be to other characters. Our SH + aerial game is still very strong and even he has to respect that or he'll get launched unless he's abusing heavy/super armour every time, which is hard when you're also trying to approach. Additionally we have a very solid grab game which he has to be careful about. I think ground game is in his favour but not by a ridiculous margin actually, which hurts him a lot.

@ NairWizard : You're oversimplifying it way too much. Many lower tier characters will have plenty of options, but these won't be available to them because of some other aspect of their character. Sure, those critical aspects of a character play a part. But sometimes technicality can too. Many lower tier characters who are technical have been found to have actually had some cool things that they can throw out that are unlike any other character and this has given them some tools even when their conventional options have been shut down. Alternatively, some characters who are even known as good early on are only known as good because of this technical stuff. Snake in Brawl didn't have an overly incredible Usmash (it was fine but not godlike); but used with DACUS and you had 3 seperate hitboxes and a moving hurtbox that was pretty much covered by them.

I think the ability to find technical aspects of each character (it always happens in each smash game) will allow those characters to rise and fall as well as having a kind of core set of moves that allow them to have the range and power they need.

 

[mimgrim]

I wanna talk about Luigi a little bit. First about his custom. With Mach Cyclone and Quick Missile set-up together he has to have one of the best recoveries in the game. His vertical and horizontal distance with those 2 moves are simply insane, if a Luigi play has both of these moves on well expect them to be able to recover from anywhere. Those 2 moves are so good for recovery that he could easily get away with Fiery Jump Punch. Too bad the move is pretty bad. Like the move says, it is a lot easier to get the critical hit and the distance is shortened, shortened vastly, but the critical hit is soooooooooo much weak and kills way later then the on his Super Jump Punch. It's saddening really. If FJP critical hit was as scary as SJP's then this character would be super scary. Burial Head is meh. So there isn't enough incentive to use either of the other Uspecials over SJP, which is rather sad for FJP. His projectile is still decent at best. Though I think Iceball might be the best since he can use it like an extra approach tool due to how slow it travels. Quick Missile can still do a misfire, not to mention the move in general seems stronger, and you can literally travel across all of FD and then some with this move before it is even fully charge, then Green Missile. And though it isn't as relevant in this game due to how ledge invincibility works, with the combination of Mach Cyclone and Quick Missile you can travel under a stage and make it to the other side pretty easy. The recover options of these 2 moves are just bonkers. But he is still the same floaty awkward character pretty much, but he can do some fun things with Fair and Dthrow. Overall I like him in this game, but I'm still not quite sure where he falls in comparison to other characters. He's tricky to place, and is just tricky in general.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I guess I'll have a stab at Shaya's 15 threats thing although I don't think I'll be able to really talk about some of them for lack of experience. For reference, I use Rosalina so...yeah.

: Rosalina can put out a lot of hitboxes and Bowser's a really big target. Uair's amazing disjoint makes it hard for him to get to the ground with Bowser Bomb. However, he can even it up with just a few hits and Rosalina is super light so she needs to be careful.
: No idea. Gravitational Pull will work on the bananas obviously but I got nothing else.
: All the Duck Hunts I've seen have relied heavily on camping with Trick Shot and Clay Shooting, and Gravitational Pull eats both for breakfast. It does not, however, work on the Quick Draw Gunmen. I'm not sure how a more aggressive Duck Hunt would fare, I haven't met one yet. Disjointed smashes could pose a problem for Rosalina's spacing game. There's also apparently a bug where Gravitational Pull can completely prevent further use of Duck Hunt's projectiles for the rest of the match, but I'm unfamiliar with the details.
: No idea. Luma Shot counts as a projectile so that's a factor but Luma Warp is probably better in general so it may not even come into play.
: Given an opportunity Rosalina tears him apart with juggles and offstage gimps, but Little Mac can use his mobility and armor to make himself really hard to hit. (Crossup dash attacks are the devil.) I want to call this even but heavily dependent on momentum.
: Force Palm penetrates Luma and hits Rosalina. Rosalina needs to be on point with Luma setups to kill Lucario early or else she's in for a world of hurt. Momentum based like Little Mac.
: Never fought a Mii Gunner. Why Sakurai decided not to allow them online I'll never understand. I want to know what moves Gravitational Pull works on, that'll no doubt be a major factor.
: The freest of gimps, it's not even funny. PK Fire deals with Luma for free since it can't SDI out and Rosalina can't absorb the flame pillar, but I think that's the best thing Ness has going for himself here. That said, it does force Rosalina to play conservatively with Luma. PSI Magnet works on Star Bits, by the way.
: Like PK Fire, Arcfire deals with Luma for free, although the trajectory can sometimes let it sneak through, and Rosalina can't absorb the flame pillar. Elwind is a unique tool to deal with Rosalina's juggles, but it's super high risk since it puts Robin in helpless. The Levin Sword must be respected at all times. Thoron is almost a nonissue, but simply having it charged can lead to fun mindgames where the Rosalina gets a bit trigger happy with Gravitational Pull and gets smacked by something else instead.
: An interesting quirk to the Rosalina mirror is that there's nothing in place to prevent both players from having the same color Luma. This makes it difficult to remember which one is yours, especially after a close range fight where one Luma gets sent flying or if both players like to send Luma out.
: Sheik probably has the overall advantage. Luma isn't a perfect Needle Storm defense when more than a couple are charged and Sheik can basically run circles and not commit to anything if she wants. I'm pretty sure Rosalina has better range outside of Needle Storm but has to be careful not to leave herself open, and it doesn't take much to leave yourself open to Sheik.
: Rosalina outranges but Sonic's fast. (Duh.) Haven't faced enough to form a proper opinion.
: Rosalina's advantage IMO. Gravitational Pull negates Lloid Rocket, Timber, dash attack, fair, bair, and fsmash, although whether it's wise to try and absorb some of those moves is questionable given probable range and spacing. But Villager cannot play the camping game. Also, Villager cannot Pocket Luma.
: Egg Toss arcs over Luma so it's not the projectile sponge it usually is. None of the Yoshis I've faced were able to deal with uair juggles, so that may be a weak point to capitalize on. Really weird to try and gimp due to that second jump. Yoshi's dair lasts for ages if it hits Luma, so Rosalina has to be careful punishing it.
: Paralyzer beats Luma every time, even during Luma Shot. Her usmash completely outranges Rosalina's dair, so no intercepting an attack when landing. Still not sure how to deal with Flip Jump, apparently it has invincibility frames? I'm not sure how this can work out to Rosalina's advantage.

 

[NairWizard]

@ NairWizard : You're oversimplifying it way too much. Many lower tier characters will have plenty of options, but these won't be available to them because of some other aspect of their character. Sure, those critical aspects of a character play a part. But sometimes technicality can too. Many lower tier characters who are technical have been found to have actually had some cool things that they can throw out that are unlike any other character and this has given them some tools even when their conventional options have been shut down. Alternatively, some characters who are even known as good early on are only known as good because of this technical stuff. Snake in Brawl didn't have an overly incredible Usmash (it was fine but not godlike); but used with DACUS and you had 3 seperate hitboxes and a moving hurtbox that was pretty much covered by them.

I think the ability to find technical aspects of each character (it always happens in each smash game) will allow those characters to rise and fall as well as having a kind of core set of moves that allow them to have the range and power they need.

Rather than oversimplify, I'm trying to avoid overcomplicating what should really be a simple thing. One of the two things I learned from my years of debating is that the surest way to arrive at the wrong conclusion is to consider something from too many perspectives: there must be some focus and clarity. There are 50 characters in this game. We can't think about all of them all at once. So I would rather not talk about what characters like ROB can do in this thread. There are more interesting characters with unexplored playstyles like Megaman and Villager that deserve attention, because they have tools that the top tiers *don't*.

Not really sure what your overall message is in this passage. Seems like you're agreeing with me that the low-tier characters who have things that top-tiers don't is where we should be looking. I don't disagree with anything you said, except that I don't think Snake is a good example, since he got worse over Brawl's metagame development. Brawl Peach is a character who developed a lot of new tech over time and some really cool playstyles (like Kie's Peach in Japan).

 

[Signia]

Pardon the double post but for the record I will eat my own shoe if this happens.

I hope your shoes are tasty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDH97DRhMNA

Falcon has the potential to be the most potent killer in the game. FF Uair might be the safest aerial on shield, with its 13% damage and 10 frames of lag, and yet it true combos to knee at kill percents, in some situations.

 

[Luco]

It felt like you were oversimplifying it because you were talking about individual moves - what I was trying to say is that for instance, the fast Dsmash might not be required if the niche it fills is more or less taken by other moves and thus combos.

But I didn't read back where this started so I probably missed something. =P

 

[NairWizard]

I hope your shoes are tasty

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDH97DRhMNA

Falcon has the potential to be the most potent killer in the game. FF Uair might be the safest aerial on shield, with its 13% damage and 10 frames of lag, and yet it true combos to knee at kill percents, in some situations.

Shifting shuriken to up-smash and DACUS say, "show me your moves."

 

[Luco]

Which page did Shaya even start the 15 character threat thing.

I believe it was 76 or 77. Pretty sure it was at the bottom of 76.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Which page did Shaya even start the 15 character threat thing.

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-76#post-17913509

 

[Sinister Slush]

What's weird is I thought for half the time people were making lists based off what Gashi posted a few more pages back from that post.

 

[meleebrawler]

I wanna talk about Luigi a little bit. First about his custom. With Mach Cyclone and Quick Missile set-up together he has to have one of the best recoveries in the game. His vertical and horizontal distance with those 2 moves are simply insane, if a Luigi play has both of these moves on well expect them to be able to recover from anywhere. Those 2 moves are so good for recovery that he could easily get away with Fiery Jump Punch. Too bad the move is pretty bad. Like the move says, it is a lot easier to get the critical hit and the distance is shortened, shortened vastly, but the critical hit is soooooooooo much weak and kills way later then the on his Super Jump Punch. It's saddening really. If FJP critical hit was as scary as SJP's then this character would be super scary. Burial Head is meh. So there isn't enough incentive to use either of the other Uspecials over SJP, which is rather sad for FJP. His projectile is still decent at best. Though I think Iceball might be the best since he can use it like an extra approach tool due to how slow it travels. Quick Missile can still do a misfire, not to mention the move in general seems stronger, and you can literally travel across all of FD and then some with this move before it is even fully charge, then Green Missile. And though it isn't as relevant in this game due to how ledge invincibility works, with the combination of Mach Cyclone and Quick Missile you can travel under a stage and make it to the other side pretty easy. The recover options of these 2 moves are just bonkers. But he is still the same floaty awkward character pretty much, but he can do some fun things with Fair and Dthrow. Overall I like him in this game, but I'm still not quite sure where he falls in comparison to other characters. He's tricky to place, and is just tricky in general.

Qusetion is, are you really willing to give up the offensive utility
of default cyclone?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So if I resume the last 2 posts, Peach and Robin aren't top 10 material at all ?

Robin is bad, dude.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Okay, time for bias-mobile 101 being used as the basis for debate. Bare with me.
This is a personal list of 15 characters in this game which I feel are either very strong, have polarising (or new mechanics we haven't learned to deal with) match up strengths or are seemingly popular/common in tournament thus far (or some combination of all three).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For Zero Suit:

: Pretty far in Zero Suit's favor, and maybe one of her better match-ups. Bowser has no answer to paralyzer and no answer to Zero Suit's aerials or ground speed. It is very important that the Zero Suit player not get baited into trying too many faux-strings as Bowser only needs to get her to about 80% before she has to worry about dying to back air. Zero Suit should avoid side-b in this match-up because bowser can normal shield it and ground up-b towards her to punish. Otherwise, the Zero Suit flowchart is enormously challenging for Bowser to deal with. For now I'll say 6-4 or maybe even better for Zero Suit.

: Early impressions give a slight advantage to Diddy Kong, but I wouldn't be surprised if it felt more even down the line. His short hop height allows him to sh bair ZSS' tall frame while standing and monkey flipping over her paralyzer is pretty annoying; this means that ZSS' default neutral plan is a little less reliable and can't be counted on as much. ZSS' tilts and fast fall aerials are solid at neutral and she still uses bananas really well, maybe even better than Diddy himself. 4-6 for Diddy Kong.

: Absolutely Zero Suit's favor. Dog has no good way to deal with Zero Suit's speed, her mid-range spacing is better than his in this match-up. Dog's zoning game is not a problem for speedy, high-range ZSS due to the angles his projectiles must travel and the slow projectile speed.. At close range ZSS' tilts outrange Dog's on the ground and her jab is the stuff of his nightmares. It can be hard for Zero Suit to land killing blows on DHD because his keepaway game, while not good enogh to avoid taking damage from ZSS, is good enough to avoid her kill set-ups and stay safe. 6-4 ZSS.

: With the death of Brawl-style laser camping, it would seem Falco's most devastating option in this match-up is more or less gone. With that said, Falco's host of high-damage, high-priority close-range options keep him relevant in this match-up. His jump height and solid aerials make ZSS sweat off-stage. His weight and nerfed dair make juggling him a breeze though. This is the definition of an even match-up to me right now. It is very based on momentum, and that momentum can change at a moment's notice. 5-5.

: Zero Suit's favor and strongly. Her move-set is really the perfect counter to everything this guy wants to do. Between her speed and down-b making it hard to chase her down, uptilt and jab easily hitting him out of multiple normals, his air game being pitiful and ZSS' being among the best (making both air-to-air and juggles impossible), her long-range grab making short work of counters, and paralyzer making approaching her very difficult (and jumping over her paralyzer with his specials has to be done in anticipation, making it unsafe), she really does have all the tools in the world. He is really easy to kill too; just doing fthrow off-stage at around 80% probably means he dies. 6-4 ZSS.

: Not really enough experience to say, but I think it's probably 4-6 for Lucario just because of his kill power and ZSS' relative difficulty killing him.

: No experience really.

: Even until Ness is off-stage... easiest gimps ever. Ness players, recover low if you can. There's really not much to say here that isn't really obvious... paralyzer has to be used sporatically so that Ness can't react to it and heal himself. This is raw footsies. ZSS wins on the ground due to her longer tilt range and incredible jab, and they are both just juggle bait to each other. It almost feels like a ZSS mirror. 5-5.

: No experience really.

: Pretty even, if not a slight advantage. Paralyzer is pretty annoying for Rosalina; it makes short work of Luma and goes through star bits. Her relatively floaty physics make juggling her a breeze. Not sure what else to say, all my Rosalina match-ups have felt pretty straight-forward from a ZSS perspective. Use paralyzer to control space, dash up to follow it and try to a reaction from Rosalina. Her tall frame makes aerials and paralyzer as well as high ftilt very effective tools. Man, ZSS is totally rufus by the way. 5-5.

: Not a great match-up. It's either 4-6 for Sheik or even. I think it's stage dependent. It's also worth noting that my only experience against Sheik is online, where lag makes roll away and needles a really obnoxious problem. Ask me again in a few weeks.

: This match-up, aside from the greater reward that both players get from landing a hit, is virtually unchanged from Brawl. Even to slight advantage for ZSS. ZSS speed isn't as good as sonic's but her superior mid-range options make it hard for him to get inside regardless. ZSS' tilts are obnoxious for sonic due to their large hitboxes and safety (dtilt I read is not really safe, but hard to punish and pokes shields). Yes, you read right: just dtilt against sonic. It works, I promise. 5-5.

: Not really sure yet.

: I have some experience but most Yoshi players seem so random to me that I'm not really sure what to say about it. I win against most Yoshi players, even ones I think are pretty good, but that doesn't mean anything. Ask me later.

: 10-0. ZSS always wins.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think I should forward this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-one-inch-punch-a-mii-brawler-insta-ko-tech.376667/

The threads still going to ignore him -_-
Even without he is good but lol @this