Character Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

Ganon can't do **** against either Yoshi or ZSS. Sheik, Rosie, Luigi and Pikachu may be even worse still but it's not like it matters. I don't think a Yoshi or ZSS player should ever lose to Ganondorf in a non-custom meta.

 

[Ikes]

here's the video
discuss

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My experience playing Shulk is actually that his core problem isn't dealing with rushdown, it's run-away. I was playing a local pretty decent and pretty aggressive Sonic and just wrecking him with Shulk since shield is unkillable and even that aside my risk-reward on just guessing with Power Vision is really good when I already can guess a lot of his timing by the constraints on his movement my wall of nair creates. He then adopted a new strategy of "if I have a lead, just run away from Shulk and even if not take my time", and my life got a lot harder. It just about took the shield arte out of the MU, it forced me to use speed instead of buster/smash a lot more (severely cutting down my reward on hit), and even more it changed the game of one where I could use my huge disjoints to try to zone him out to one where I had to figure out how to safely approach with Shulk's frame data which is a much bigger problem. If Shulk has any clever tricks to beat a Sonic trying to time him out other than "never be behind" along with "be a way better player than the Sonic and just hard read all of his movement", I'd definitely be really interested. My current understanding of the character is that he's really good in MUs where his opponent can't realistically beat him that way but that he has big problems with a lot of MUs where precisely that happens.

I haven't personally played Shulk-Ganon, but it's hard for me to see it as a likely bad match-up either way. Ganon is one of the rare characters who actually hits harder than Shulk, and while Shulk has a big range advantage, Ganon has more flexibility in his attack patterns. Countering Ganon sounds great and is something you'd want to do, but Power Vision hits so stupid hard already that I think you actually have better risk-reward fishing for counters against relatively weaker characters. Both characters can definitely punish the other really well; neither's very safe on block or whiff, and both have great tools to exploit the other making a mistake or taking a bad gamble. I would need direct experience in this particular MU to call which way it goes, but I just struggle to imagine it being really bad for either side.

Ganon can't do **** against either Yoshi or ZSS. Sheik, Rosie, Luigi and Pikachu may be even worse still but it's not like it matters. I don't think a Yoshi or ZSS player should ever lose to Ganondorf in a non-custom meta.

I don't play the non-custom game, but your post made me try to imagine what Ganon even does without customs and it made me really sad as I realized all the algorithmic ways to beat Ganon that only don't work because of Dark Fists and Wizard's Dropkick. I heavily suspect your claims are correct, but it really is depressing.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Also Dr. Mario's SJP doesn't have invuln.

Are you serious? There's no way that Doc's frame 3 OoS option (which is often used to kill or just tack on damage) doesn't have some form of i-frames.

 

[Zeriora]

here's the video
discuss

Must be a hitbox glitch.

 

[Zeriora]

Ganon can't do **** against either Yoshi or ZSS. Sheik, Rosie, Luigi and Pikachu may be even worse still but it's not like it matters. I don't think a Yoshi or ZSS player should ever lose to Ganondorf in a non-custom meta.

I believe there is more to ganon
Ganon Is Love, Ganon Is Life.

Ganon can outplay anyone.
Three hits to glory.

 

[berserkergatsu]

Can someone explain to me why Zelda's side-B puts her into a fall state but Fox can use both his side-B and up-B no problem?

 

[bc1910]

Beginners and even intermediate players have been killing themselves with Fox's side B since Melee. It was basically made impossible to do that. I don't agree with that reasoning but I think that IS the reason.

Zelda's side B is more to do with the devs not wanting her to have Dins Fire as a way to protect her recovery.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Can someone explain to me why Zelda's side-B puts her into a fall state but Fox can use both his side-B and up-B no problem?

Sakurai: I dunno man. A smash game where Zelda is... good? Sounds pretty dangerous to me. But Fox? Yeah we can give him some safety.

 

[Browny]

Even the best players in the world still kill themselves with fox's sideb in melee lol.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

I guess Ganon needs more tournament play. There's all these good traits I've heard about him, but i've yet to see them being shown off. In my mind, he has powerful attacks and great tools in his moveset that give him early kills, but this is countered by his slow movement speed and laggy attacks, most which aren't safe on shield. He requires more difficult reads (though less than most heavies), though I'm not implying he doesn't get high rewards for them. From my experience, Ganon has many favorable MUs and some really close ones (some not in his favor), but they aren't against ZSS or Yoshi, that much I know. My opinion on these MUs will only change once we see more tournament action (he really needs it imo)

 

[TriTails]

What is the consensus on ZSSxLuigi MU? I can't think of anything special one character has over the other outside of their general combos/juggling. I could see both of them destroying each others recoveries with downB, which I suppose Luigi would have an easier time with?

IMO it's evenish. Some may say Luigi gets destroyed due to mobility and range, but remember:
1. Fireballs clanks with Paralyzer. See her charge one, throw out one or two.
2. Cyclone actually can interrupt ZSS' Flip Jump.
3. Frame 16 grab. Please understand. Oh, and if you miss = Death.
4. ZSS is light, is KO'd fairly easily by HooHahNado, and is easy to combo.

Honestly, neither character should approach, as approaching will net the said character getting a boot to the face. So yeah, we just have to play it lame and campy, and force something out so we can punish. Luigi doesn't need to approach here IMO. Just get into Fireball's range and prepare for anything she can throw out.

And also, Luigi must not be outplayed, as getting outplayed = Spending the rest of the match trying to catch the damn Samus because she is currently in the lead and is now FLYING over his head because mobility and the damn Flip Jump. Thanks Nidtendofreak for the MK video.

Can you tell us about the Luigi vs Ganon matchup? Surely a character that has worse mobility than you and is outranged by you should be easy to keep out. I personally think you overrate your character but saying you lose to Luigi seems inconsistent with your usual beliefs.

You seem to underrate Luigi in general. Sonic and Fox out-strips Luigi in mobility, yet Luigi still convincingly BEATS them (Sonic, not so much. Maybe even in the meta right now, but I still believe it's 55:45 Luigi. But Fox loses 40:60 against Luigi). Dedede, Bowser, DK, and Charizard either is faster and/or has more range, not doing much against Luigi's Fireballs zoning and comboing ability, and lol combos.

Look. I know I have bottom 5 range. I know I have bottom 5 mobility. Yes, I know I have bottom tier traction. DOESN'T mean I auto-loses to people who is better than me in those aspects. If that was the case, then we better off scrapping Luigi to bottom tier and never bother with the character again.

And the thing I'll never get (No offense, but this is seriously bizarre) is:

'Luigi has worse mobility than Ganon'

LUIGI has worse mobility than Ganon

worse mobility than Ganon

LUIGI

What.

Even when counting Ganon's better airspeed and much faster falling speed, how the hell does Ganon even catch my 30th fastest dashing speed, sitting at 1.5, and one of the highest jump in the entire game?

Oh yeah, my shorthop options if I really have that bad air mobility? Double chop auto-cancels, deals 9% per whoop, and protects my front really nicely. SH B-air is safe on shield, auto-cancels, deals 14%, and is frame 11 (Frame 5 jumpsquat + frame 6 B-air execution. Maybe a few more frames depending on where I take it out). SH D-air auto-cancels, deals 8%, frame 10 but lol endlag, and can be used to approach due to its pretty nice hitbox. N-air is frame 3, has 14 frames of landing lag, deals 12% or 6%, a combo starter, and can be used after a chop, U-air, or D-air.

Luigi's mobility is bottom 5, but not SO bad that it's worse than Ganon. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, so I'm sorry if I came out that way.

I guess Ganon needs more tournament play. There's all these good traits I've heard about him, but i've yet to see them being shown off. In my mind, he has powerful attacks and great tools in his moveset that give him early kills, but this is countered by his slow movement speed and laggy attacks, most which aren't safe on shield. He requires more difficult reads (though less than most heavies), though I'm not implying he doesn't get high rewards for them. From my experience, Ganon has many favorable MUs and some really close ones (some not in his favor), but they aren't against ZSS or Yoshi, that much I know. My opinion on these MUs will only change once we see more tournament action (he really needs it imo)

I wonder if Ganon starts to win tourneys, people will counter him the same way they counter Luigi, camp the **** out of the character because lol mobility?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ganondorf has a decent set of moves that are safe on shield and outrange most characters' functional attack range. Unlike Luigi, he also has burst range, and he doesn't have much combo potential or many hit confirms.

 

[|RK|]

Heads up - they're all out now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Ryu's moveset appears to be oozing frame trap potential.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I wonder if Ganon starts to win tourneys, people will counter him the same way they counter Luigi, camp the **** out of the character because lol mobility?

My experience is trying to actually traditionally camp Ganon out really only works as like...Sheik, Sonic, and Mii Gunner, and these characters more importantly have a lot of reason to rush Ganon down. Realistically, Ganon suffers a lot more from good rushdown than he does from being camped out given he actually has good burst mobility in DA and Wizkick. Some of Ganon's best matchups are in fact against projectile characters, such as Link, Toon Link, ROB, Mario, Doc.

 

[Unknownkid]

Since they are out. Do we have permission to discussion about them now in this thread or do we need to wait for everyone purchase their characters first?

 

[bc1910]

Ryu seems incredible. Everything combos. He has like 50% more moves than everyone else so that already gives him extra depth, then you have all these traps and combos... oh man.

Damage output is insane. Recovery is quite poor, that's the only real weakness I've found so far.

 

[Teshie U]

Are there any other changes in this patch so far? I don't see a thread for it and obviously I don't wanna bait placebo posts here, but can we assume this is purely DLC and bugfixes?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Which is fair. I know a tip said to do coward copter for more height. Does that help any? I know Shoryu isn't that far.

 

[Pazx]

Were replays broken in this patch?

You seem to underrate Luigi in general. Sonic and Fox out-strips Luigi in mobility, yet Luigi still convincingly BEATS them (Sonic, not so much. Maybe even in the meta right now, but I still believe it's 55:45 Luigi. But Fox loses 40:60 against Luigi). Dedede, Bowser, DK, and Charizard either is faster and/or has more range, not doing much against Luigi's Fireballs zoning and comboing ability, and lol combos.

Look. I know I have bottom 5 range. I know I have bottom 5 mobility. Yes, I know I have bottom tier traction. DOESN'T mean I auto-loses to people who is better than me in those aspects. If that was the case, then we better off scrapping Luigi to bottom tier and never bother with the character again.

And the thing I'll never get (No offense, but this is seriously bizarre) is:




What.

Even when counting Ganon's better airspeed and much faster falling speed, how the hell does Ganon even catch my 30th fastest dashing speed, sitting at 1.5, and one of the highest jump in the entire game?

Oh yeah, my shorthop options if I really have that bad air mobility? Double chop auto-cancels, deals 9% per whoop, and protects my front really nicely. SH B-air is safe on shield, auto-cancels, deals 14%, and is frame 11 (Frame 5 jumpsquat + frame 6 B-air execution. Maybe a few more frames depending on where I take it out). SH D-air auto-cancels, deals 8%, frame 10 but lol endlag, and can be used to approach due to its pretty nice hitbox. N-air is frame 3, has 14 frames of landing lag, deals 12% or 6%, a combo starter, and can be used after a chop, U-air, or D-air.

Luigi's mobility is bottom 5, but not SO bad that it's worse than Ganon. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, so I'm sorry if I came out that way.


I wonder if Ganon starts to win tourneys, people will counter him the same way they counter Luigi, camp the **** out of the character because lol mobility?

I was being facetious and poking fun at the fact that two Ganon mains in particular think their character beats everyone. I would think Luigi has the tools to beat Ganon. I definitely think he has worse mobility though, Ganon's burst mobility cannot be underestimated.

 

[thehard]

Replays were broken.

• Adjustments have also been made to make for a more pleasant gaming experience.

 

[LimitCrown]

It seems that Meta Knight was buffed in the latest update. The repeating hits of his jab attack now deal 1.2% damage and the last hit of his side tilt deals 4% damage.

 

[Blobface]

Ganon has been doing fairly well in tourneys actually, just going off of the character rankings (he's ranked 22). I think Ray_Kalm and Vermanubis have both placed top 8 in every tournament they've gone to, and I know for certain Kalm has taken 1st at a tourney before.

Most of Ganon's match ups are effectively even, since he can always outplay his opponent and he himself can always be outplayed. There's only a few really bad ones and a few really good ones.

In order from worst to least bad:
Sheik/Rosalina, Villager, ZSS/Pikachu

Spoiler

Sheik: the antithesis of Ganon. Beatable, but very difficult.

Rosalina: decent kill power and insane amounts of safety. Can kill Ganon really easily with D-air. Beatable, but very difficult.

Villager: Slingshots are height dependent. Ganon is the tallest character in the game. Beatable, but difficult.

ZSS: incredibly safe and has good kill power, but the F16 grab saves the day again. Beatable.

Pikachu: fast, has a tiny hurt box, and has incredible edgeguarding, but his lacking kill power outside of edgeguards plus his light weight gives him a very low margin of error (@Cassio probably has some choice words to say about this).

Also, can someone explain what Yoshi actually does that Ganon has a hard time against? I can't think of anything.

Not going to go into exhaustive detail, but Ganon does well against characters who, in no particular order:

• Have short range
• Can't force approaches
• Have poor defense against his edgeguarding
• Can't deal with disjoints (for one reason or another)
• Are light
• Have poor kill power, allowing him to abuse rage (AKA the only reason Ganon can beat Sheik)
• Have laggy, punishable moves.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Were replays broken in this patch?



I was being facetious and poking fun at the fact that two Ganon mains in particular think their character beats everyone. I would think Luigi has the tools to beat Ganon. I definitely think he has worse mobility though, Ganon's burst mobility cannot be underestimated.

Hardly. Ganon mostly goes about evenish with a lot of characters, wins about 10 or so matchups about 55/45, and has some tough matchups against certain top tiers.

Realistically he's a pretty balanced character.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Fox's Jab combo still in or what?

 

[Asdioh]

That "adjustments have been made" bit is the non-balance wording they used in the past. They specifically used the word balance in the balance patches
Incoming placebos anyway

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Not going to go into exhaustive detail, but Ganon does well against characters who, in no particular order:

• Have short range
• Can't force approaches
• Have poor defense against his edgeguarding
• Can't deal with disjoints (for one reason or another)
• Are light
• Have poor kill power, allowing him to abuse rage (AKA the only reason Ganon can beat Sheik)
• Have laggy, punishable moves.

None of these points apply to Yoshi: he has very solid range, can force approaches, can evade edgeguarding attempts, doesn't really care too much about disjoints, is moderately heavy, has good kill power and has very little lag on his moves. That might help explaining why Ganon has such a poor matchup against him.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Were replays broken in non-balance patches?

 

[Unknownkid]

Yes, you were unable to play previous version replays due to the version conflict.

Edit: I misread your statement Reflex. I am not sure.

 

[Spirst]

No, replays didn't break in non balance patch updates. The patch that fixed the Mewtwo customs glitch still allowed existing replays of it to be viewed.

 

[Gunla]

Were replays broken in non-balance patches?

On 3DS, 1.0.5 did, but it had bugfixes and the addition of amiibo.

On Wii U, no non-balance patches have done so.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu is just gonna crap on people. Only character with consistent hit confirms into KO moves. In SF games many chars have confirms into game ending damage so this isnt a big deal. But in this game where sealing a stock is so important and so many characters are limited to creating trap situations and not actual kill combos, he is just a force to be reckoned with.

 

[Firefoxx]

This is the only update to specifically use "Adjustments have also been made for a more pleasant gaming experience"

Every other update mentions game balance as well. Don't know if that was always true but it is now http://en-americas-support.nintendo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/11692/p/430

 

[LimitCrown]

The sweetspot of Zelda's neutral air attack is now located in front of her instead of behind her. It seems that there are actually changes to the characters in this update.

 

[Kofu]

Yes, you were unable to play previous version replays due to the version conflict.

Edit: I misread your statement Reflex. I am not sure.

I remember one of the 3DS patches breaking replays even though the only changes were visual fromy understanding (it might have been the patch that buffed the Pikmin AI though). On the other hand, the patch that removed Mewtwo's "customs" didn't break replays.

 

[Nu~]

Ryu is just gonna crap on people. Only character with consistent hit confirms into KO moves. In SF games many chars have confirms into game ending damage so this isnt a big deal. But in this game where sealing a stock is so important and so many characters are limited to creating trap situations and not actual kill combos, he is just a force to be reckoned with.

This is one character that scares me with the way his meta will develop. Once people get his complex moves down, all he needs is a hit confirm to possibly end the stock...

Good thing his offstage game seems pretty bad

 

[Unknownkid]

So Ryu is pretty much a better Little Mac?

 

[Thinkaman]

I can confirm that MK f-tilt 3 has been buffed from 3% to 4%.

Balance changes ahoy.

 

[Aquamentii]

The most terrifying thing in this game is when a Ganon gets you with a sideB and starts tech reading you with more sideB's, because he has the ability to cover every option with another sideB(of course not by using it the same way, he still has to shield/space before using it) and then the % keeps climbing, and you think a roll-in will get you out of the situation but it could also spell death with a charge F-smash at 50%... Ganon with any momentum at all is pretty terrifying...

Quick edit: I suppose you can tech away and he can't get there fast enough