Character Competitive Impressions

[Kofu]

Does anybody else think that it's ridiculous that Yoshi's Dair does 32% and breaks shields?

Not especially. You have to basically be bit with all hits for it to do that much damage which will rarely happen unless you have a big frame.

One thing I've noticed with Yoshi is that he for the most part has average to high startup but low end lag on his attacks (much like Game & Watch). NAir and Jab are the main exceptions and they help to balance his kit.

Also a comment on Pac-Man: from what I've read from his mains here, it sounds like he has the tools to counter almost every situation. Unfortunately, most if not all of these require some sort of setup, and it often ends up being a fairly lengthy process that leaves Pac either vulnerable (mainly in the case of precise trampoline setups) or disrupts his game plan. He's got good CQC tools but you can't always assume he has the exact setup to beat his opponents. He's still a character with some flexibility and one who rewards creativity but his matchups aren't all shutouts because he needs time to get what he wants.

 

[Aquamentii]

Uh, I wouldn't say Yoshi doesn't suffer from cooldown on his down b. it's not as slow as Ganon's or even Dedede's up b, but like theirs, it's still punishable. It's not safe from aerial approaches.

Yeah those are some good points. It actually does have a decent cooldown, but the stars that pop out on both sides protect him a little longer. While it isn't safe against an airborne opponent, characters with slow air speeds or little range still have a lot of trouble punishing it. For instance, I don't think Ganon could punish it on reaction. Most characters could but I wouldn't risk it because missing could just mean another downB...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah those are some good points. It actually does have a decent cooldown, but the stars that pop out on both sides protect him a little longer. While it isn't safe against an airborne opponent, characters with slow air speeds or little range still have a lot of trouble punishing it. For instance, I don't think Ganon could punish it on reaction. Most characters could but I wouldn't risk it because missing could just mean another downB...

On the ground, Ganon can easily whiff punish Yoshi Down-B with DA or Wizkick on reaction. Or F-smash if he blocks the stars successfully. He might not punish it as often if like...he was in the middle of a retreating fullhop, but he can cleanly beat Yoshi's Down-B with U-air.

 

[Aquamentii]

From what I've experienced, Yoshi wins his MU against ganon pretty solidly because:
He's deceptively heavy and lives longer then you'd expect
While Ganon can sideB Yoshi out of his second jump to win a match/trade stocks, The super armor Yoshi's double jump has makes his recovering a lot safer.
(Big one) Egg throw beats almost all of Ganon's approach options (besides power shielding, but that's not the easiest thing in the world)
Frame 2 Jab and Frame 2(at least I think it's Frame 2) Nair makes most of Yoshi's moves super safe against ganon's punish attempts
Yoshi's frame traps are even easier to pull off on Ganon
He's got several very strong punish moves(so he can keep up somewhat with Ganon's KO power and % racking)
Egg Lay is a very powerful option for gimping Ganon at mid to high %'s
Yoshi has an easier time getting all the hits of Dair in

Probably many more advantages.

 

[Ryu_Ken]

1. You also can't disrespect aerial Wizkick with F-air, which both stalls Ganon's momentum and is able to either kill vertically or spike. Ganon in general really doesn't have a lot of reason to worry about getting edgeguarded by F-air, honestly. And if Ganon DIs well he just has to either aerial Wizkick or fastfall airdodge to get a solid low recovery opportunity. Not a lot ZSS can do to contest directly.

2. Sheik is pretty awful by design, not much to say about that other than rage comebacks are how Ganon tries to win.

3. Also I definitely don't think Yoshi is anywhere near as hard as Luigi, Pikachu, or Rosalina for Ganon. Yoshi is pretty manageable for everyone in neutral, he's mostly just a heavy punish based character like Ganon honestly.

1. I would not even consider Wizkick an anti-edgeguard option. It's extremely risky to use, and misdjugment can lead to an instant SD. I can't deny the frame data Ganon and ZSS have, but Fair is still an option.

2. I think you should elaborate here to clarify. Is the MU awful by design or the advantages Sheik has over Ganon?

3. Honestly, Yoshi's eggs are pretty difficult to deal with. I don't think getting reads with Yoshi is difficult since his attacks have a significantly large hitbox and can easily pressure Ganon with his aerials. Also, ditto what @ A Aquamentii said.

 

[Aquamentii]

I'd need to test this but I'm pretty sure that Sheik's Fair is completely safe on Ganon's shield, because of jab/Ftilt. I've seen videos of False's sheik living to absurd %'s in doubles just because sheik's too slippery to get hit by anything that's not a hard read(don't take me too literally on this). Despite being on the lighter side most characters have a hard time killing her, and I think she wins the matchup purely because Ganon can't hit her and she combos him to pieces. As long as a sheik plays safe I can't see anything much worse than a f-tilt connecting...

 

[A2ZOMG]

1. I would not even consider Wizkick an anti-edgeguard option. It's extremely risky to use, and misdjugment can lead to an instant SD. I can't deny the frame data Ganon and ZSS have, but Fair is still an option.

2. I think you should elaborate here to clarify. Is the MU awful by design or the advantages Sheik has over Ganon?

3. Honestly, Yoshi's eggs are pretty difficult to deal with. I don't think getting reads with Yoshi is difficult since his attacks have a significantly large hitbox and can easily pressure Ganon with his aerials.

Aerial Wizkick is not that risky unless your opponent has good low edgeguards to catch the end portion of it. A Ganon player will never use in in a position where they will SD, but rather to simply get in position for a low recovery, so arguing that you would SD with it is a pretty moot point. More importantly, aerial Wizkick beats a LOT of aerials directly and can kill from the ground at like 80% if fresh, which you don't want to contest offstage obviously. I would argue in most situations traditional edgeguarding is not something that will work very often for ZSS just generally speaking.

Sheik has been technically Ganon's hardest matchup in like every Smash game (ignore the abomination that is the ICs in Brawl, Sheik is Ganon's worst matchup by far even in that game). Ganon in general is a character who excels primarily at being a threat in midrange. Sheik walks all over that with the combination of Needles AND a strong short hop aerial -> Jab game that Ganon can't punish on block given his slow normals and poor grab range. She both forces Ganon to approach and shield, and Ganon doesn't have any close range options that are good against her rushdown either. Which is why I say the primary buff Ganon needs is a 6 frame Jab, because it would actually give him a somewhat reasonable response to close range pressure when he's forced to block a lot. Or alternatively better grab range, which would then completely break Ganon and make him likely a top tier character that only loses to Rosalina (due to extremely consistent gimps).

Yoshi's Eggs aren't hard to deal with outside of juggle traps as long as you just perfect shield them in neutral. Also Ganon's N-air is a very strong anti-air against all of Yoshi's aerials.

 

[David Viran]

Flip Jump doesn't trap anything offstage unless you have awful reaction time. You have to literally get a solid ground confirm near the ledge for most of those combos to work and you're probably just better off killing with B-air 90% of the time if that extremely specific situation presents itself. And if you landed D-smash, you probably are better off confirming F-smash in most situations. Also good luck timing a ledge denial spike in any situation except extremely poor DI.

I heavily disagree Flip Jump edgeguards matter in this matchup, or most matchups.
You also can't disrespect aerial Wizkick with F-air, which both stalls Ganon's momentum and is able to either kill vertically or spike. Ganon in general really doesn't have a lot of reason to worry about getting edgeguarded by F-air, honestly. And if Ganon DIs well he just has to either aerial Wizkick or fastfall airdodge to get a solid low recovery opportunity. Not a lot ZSS can do to contest directly.

Sheik is pretty awful by design, not much to say about that other than rage comebacks are how Ganon tries to win.

Also I definitely don't think Yoshi is anywhere near as hard as Luigi, Pikachu, or Rosalina for Ganon. Yoshi is pretty manageable for everyone in neutral, he's mostly just a heavy punish based character like Ganon honestly.

Alot of those set ups don't require being that close to the ledge TBH because the KB brings them offstage. The only time you would fsmash after dsmash is if it kills but otherwise zss should go for something else. If zss reads a ledge option with dsmash she basically garantees a kill at 40% and up because she can spike them out of dsmash. I don't understand that last part. What does DI have to do with the one frame vulneralbility on ledge snap?

 

[Aquamentii]

What is the consensus on ZSSxLuigi MU? I can't think of anything special one character has over the other outside of their general combos/juggling. I could see both of them destroying each others recoveries with downB, which I suppose Luigi would have an easier time with?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Alot of those set ups don't require being that close to the ledge TBH because the KB brings them offstage. The only time you would fsmash after dsmash is if it kills but otherwise zss should go for something else. If zss reads a ledge option with dsmash she basically garantees a kill at 40% and up because she can spike them out of dsmash. I don't understand that last part. What does DI have to do with the one frame vulneralbility on ledge snap?

Again, you need a clean air to ground confirm (doesn't really matter how tall Ganon is), and it also depends on percent/rage. And especially if you're not close to the ledge, it's way harder to get the combo before airdodge. Ledge trapping with D-smash is reasonable, I will give that.

Finally, why the hell would you ever go for an extremely telegraphed and slow move to attempt a 1 frame ledge snap punish? That nonsense will never hit ANY competitive player unless they literally have only one recovery option (which means, bad DI). One big reason you don't see ledge snap punish kills way more often in spite of their technical reliability is because you need to react perfectly. Which won't happen nearly as often when recovery mixups are factored.

 

[Browny]

I like a smash game where the Yoshi v Ganon matchup is worth discussing.

 

[Aquamentii]

Again, you need a clean air to ground confirm (doesn't really matter how tall Ganon is), and it also depends on percent/rage. And especially if you're not close to the ledge, it's way harder to get the combo before airdodge. Ledge trapping with D-smash is reasonable, I will give that.

Finally, why the hell would you ever go for an extremely telegraphed and slow move to attempt a 1 frame ledge snap punish? That nonsense will never hit ANY competitive player unless they literally have only one recovery option (which means, bad DI). One big reason you don't see ledge snap punish kills way more often in spite of their technical reliability is because you need to react perfectly. Which won't happen nearly as often when recovery mixups are factored.

On the contrary, it would hit every competative player because if you do get the one frame then there's no way around it. I can up tilt as Falcon, and as long as I get it within a certain range of them grabbing ledge, I have a 1 in X chance of spiking and killing my opponent. The more I practice, the better I become at getting it. The reason that people don't go for the 1 frame is because it's so hard to hit on purpose that it's practically impossible, and when you can just go offstage and edge guard with more aggressive methods (like walk off knee or Dair) why bother. If I could get the timing down I would always go for the 1 frame, and if my opponent stalls/recovers differently to mixup when the 1 frame would be, than it's like any other scenario, I adapt and wait.

 

[David Viran]

Finally, why the hell would you ever go for an extremely telegraphed and slow move to attempt a 1 frame ledge snap punish? That nonsense will never hit ANY competitive player unless they literally have only one recovery option (which means, bad DI). One big reason you don't see ledge snap punish kills way more often in spite of their technical reliability is because you need to react perfectly. Which won't happen nearly as often when recovery mixups are factored.

Because you can know that they have to grab the ledge when they go low. I've seen players like choco land this in real matches multiple times.

 

[Aquamentii]

A lot of Palutena's will try and upsmash, just because Usmash hits below the ledge and (obviously) has some serious kill power behind it. I could see this being an option that not only hits people recovering low and hugging the stage but also could get the 1 frame. It would also take care of characters who don't snap to the ledge. Im considering picking up Palutena...

 

[David Viran]

A lot of Palutena's will try and upsmash, just because Usmash hits below the ledge and (obviously) has some serious kill power behind it. I could see this being an option that not only hits people recovering low and hugging the stage but also could get the 1 frame. It would also take care of characters who don't snap to the ledge. Im considering picking up Palutena...

Really. I remember usmash whiffing on me when I was on the ledge with no invinciblilty as zss. It might depend on the character grabbing the ledge.

 

[Aquamentii]

Really. I remember usmash whiffing on me when I was on the ledge with no invinciblilty as zss. It might depend on the character grabbing the ledge.

I've had it happen to me before below the ledge, both by for glory players and some CPUs a few times. If computers can do it, I'm sure we can

 

[Lavani]

It does hit below the stage and can hit ledgesnaps (though it's kind of direction dependent), but I really don't agree with using Palutena's usmash for such things with how much endlag it has. Nearly every time I see a Palutena attempt it they get punished for it, I don't think the risk:reward is worth it unless it can be made consistent (a 7 frame lingering killing hitbox is pretty good, tbh), but I'm rather certain it's not a guaranteed thing dependent on recovery angles.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the contrary, it would hit every competative player because if you do get the one frame then there's no way around it. I can up tilt as Falcon, and as long as I get it within a certain range of them grabbing ledge, I have a 1 in X chance of spiking and killing my opponent. The more I practice, the better I become at getting it. The reason that people don't go for the 1 frame is because it's so hard to hit on purpose that it's practically impossible, and when you can just go offstage and edge guard with more aggressive methods (like walk off knee or Dair) why bother. If I could get the timing down I would always go for the 1 frame, and if my opponent stalls/recovers differently to mixup when the 1 frame would be, than it's like any other scenario, I adapt and wait.

The way around it is simple. Don't make it obvious when precisely you are grabbing the ledge.

Actually timing the 1 frame window is not hard with a lingering hitbox. I can hit ledge snap windows with Ike's Eruption with greater than 50% consistency in some matchups where my opponent has a relatively slower Up-B. But you completely missed the point. Players can and should mix up their recovery timing, meaning it is only realistic to do a ledge snap punish with any consistency using relatively fast moves. Which isn't ZSS's Down-B by a longshot.

Because you can know that they have to grab the ledge when they go low. I've seen players like choco land this in real matches multiple times.

I am extremely unconvinced that just simply because you know someone is recovering low that ZSS can reliably time a ledge snap spike with Down-B. Doesn't work that way with a move that has like 20+ startup frames unless your opponent makes an incredibly serious error and massively screws up their recovery. Otherwise Ganon players would deny every recovery by spiking them off the ledge by that logic.

 

[Aquamentii]

It does hit below the stage and can hit ledgesnaps (though it's kind of direction dependent), but I really don't agree with using Palutena's usmash for such things with how much endlag it has. Nearly every time I see a Palutena attempt it they get punished for it, I don't think the risk:reward is worth it unless it can be made consistent (a 7 frame lingering killing hitbox is pretty good, tbh), but I'm rather certain it's not a guaranteed thing dependent on recovery angles.

What kinds of punishes? I could only see most characters doing a getup attack(or maybe jump up->Fair) except for Peach who could QFR into whatever...

 

[David Viran]

The way around it is simple. Don't make it obvious when precisely you are grabbing the ledge.

Actually timing the 1 frame window is not hard with a lingering hitbox. I can hit ledge snap windows with Ike's Eruption with greater than 50% consistency in some matchups where my opponent has a relatively slower Up-B. But you completely missed the point. Players can and should mix up their recovery timing, meaning it is only realistic to do a ledge snap punish with any consistency using relatively fast moves. Which isn't ZSS's Down-B by a longshot.


I am extremely unconvinced that just simply because you know someone is recovering low that ZSS can reliably time a ledge snap spike with Down-B. Doesn't work that way with a move that has like 20+ startup frames unless your opponent makes an incredibly serious error and massively screws up their recovery. Otherwise Ganon players would deny every recovery by spiking them off the ledge by that logic.

In theory it sounds like it shouldn't really work but it's really not as hard as you might think to get.

 

[Lavani]

What kinds of punishes? I could only see most characters doing a getup attack(or maybe jump up->Fair) except for Peach who could QFR into whatever...

I forget specific instances I've seen in tournament, but it feels like every time I see a Palutena go for it they get punished hard.

Depending on when she releases the usmash the opponent's looking at a 40~50 frame window where she's not able to do anything if they manage to grab the ledge, that's more than enough time for ledge drop aerials/upBs among other things.

 

[Aquamentii]

I forget specific instances I've seen in tournament, but it feels like every time I see a Palutena go for it they get punished hard.

Depending on when she releases the usmash the opponent's looking at a 40~50 frame window where she's not able to do anything if they manage to grab the ledge, that's more than enough time for ledge drop aerials/upBs among other things.

Yikes, didn't think there was that much lag at the end. It still might be worth it, but only if you have a considerable lead...

 

[wedl!!]

can we talk about how guard breaker is a great custom but also terrible at the same time

it doesnt really matter because you should use in customs anyways lmao

 

[Ryu_Ken]

The way around it is simple. Don't make it obvious when precisely you are grabbing the ledge.

Actually timing the 1 frame window is not hard with a lingering hitbox. I can hit ledge snap windows with Ike's Eruption with greater than 50% consistency in some matchups where my opponent has a relatively slower Up-B. But you completely missed the point. Players can and should mix up their recovery timing, meaning it is only realistic to do a ledge snap punish with any consistency using relatively fast moves. Which isn't ZSS's Down-B by a longshot.


I am extremely unconvinced that just simply because you know someone is recovering low that ZSS can reliably time a ledge snap spike with Down-B. Doesn't work that way with a move that has like 20+ startup frames unless your opponent makes an incredibly serious error and massively screws up their recovery. Otherwise Ganon players would deny every recovery by spiking them off the ledge by that logic.

Believe it or not, there are player that can time ZSS's down b to hit Ganon recovering low. It's not like they do the action right when Ganon starts using his up b, they do it way before. It is possible to be able to tell when Ganon is recovering low based on the distance he must travel to recover. If he is barely in or out of Side B's recovery range, Ganon will most likely recover low. It's easier to see than u think.

 

[Aquamentii]

can we talk about how guard breaker is a great custom but also terrible at the same time

it doesnt really matter because you should use in customs anyways lmao

Does GB have super armor on the same level as his smashes? I've seen it power through some moves but I don't know if it's unstoppable. If it is, beautiful. If armor is only partial, still pretty good.

 

[Thinkaman]

can we talk about how guard breaker is a great custom but also terrible at the same time
it doesnt really matter because you should use in customs anyways lmao

Guard Breaker is frankly junk against anyone who has seen it before and isn't going to be surprised by the armor or try to shield it.

I like Mac in customs strictly because Grounding Blow is such an absolutely critical recovery mixup.

Does GB have super armor on the same level as his smashes? I've seen it power through some moves but I don't know if it's unstoppable. If it is, beautiful. If armor is only partial, still pretty good.

Starts on frame 12, which is slower than human reaction time and basically not useful as an escape tool.

 

[Aquamentii]

Guard Breaker is frankly junk against anyone who has seen it before and isn't going to be surprised by the armor or try to shield it.

I like Mac in customs strictly because Grounding Blow is such an absolutely critical recovery mixup.



Starts on frame 12, which is slower than human reaction time and basically not useful as an escape tool.

Does that mean you can't press B again after starting it to make it come out quicker? If not then that'd be more of a deal breaker than a guard breaker

 

[wedl!!]

Does that mean you can't press B again after starting it to make it come out quicker? If not then that'd be more of a deal breaker than a guard breaker

f12 is the absolute fastest the hitbox comes out with inputs, iirc. doesn't really matter regardless, the difference between the early inputs on jolt haymaker and when it comes out automatically aren't extremely noticeable

 

[Aquamentii]

f12 is the absolute fastest the hitbox comes out with inputs, iirc. doesn't really matter regardless, the difference between the early inputs on jolt haymaker and when it comes out automatically aren't extremely noticeable

If I can still get that tiny mixup of timing then I'm game for it. A bit slower than I wish, but it is the 'power' version I suppose. Not to mention LM has plenty of fast moves... if I'm recalling right the other sideB sends mac straight down in the air... not sure what the other applications of that one are though... standard sounds best for recovery

 

[Blobface]

About Shulk, since he was mentioned earlier:

Shulk suffers from the same problem that a lot of heavies, Ganon included suffer from. He likes to play at mid-range where big fat hitboxes and disjoints are at their most powerful. A Heavy/Sword character at their ideal range is a complete nightmare.

Problem is, all the top-tiers of this game be like

Spoiler

CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE

Speaking of Ganon, Yoshi is definitely not one of Ganon's worst matchups. Eggs, while certainly a problem for Ganon, are still a big enough commitment that Ganon doesn't have to play around them as much as The Fabled Pointy Metal Things. Yoshi really just doesn't have much that Ganon hates to deal with. I'd say it's even matchup, dependent on outplaying the opponent, more than anything.

Sheik is utterly terrible. Definitely one of Ganon's matchups. It's still not something I'd call invalidating though. Once you get around 50-70% Sheik loses a lot of her scary F-air chains that are so good for gimping Ganon and she's forced to just peck away at you till F-tilt or something else kills.

ZSS... I dunno, but I definitely wouldn't say it's as bad as Sheik, certainly not "invalidating". ZSS is fast, has decent kill power, and that blasted Down B*. But, y'know, that frame 16 grab ruins everything once more. Ganondorf can quite literally roll through her and F-smash, guaranteed (right to the back of the head too, owch). More importantly, ZSS is light enough for it to be a serious issue for her, making her above-average kill power much less of an advantage. It's still undeniably in ZSS's favor though, customs off, and probably still in her favor (though less so) in customs on.

*To clarify, I only hate it because it doesn't make any bloody sense. Since when do Gymnastics = Invincibility?

Edit: A few other Ganon things. I tested his aerials for disjoints quick using bumpers in training mode (shoutout to @TheReflexWonder) and found the following.

• N-air has no clear disjoint
  
• U-air has a disjoint similar in size to Ganon's D-tilt disjoint all the way around
• D-air has a slight disjoint from his shins to his feet, though technically, it has a way bigger hitbox that isn't even touching him, especially horizontally but that can't be obviously tested with bumpers.
• F-air and B-air are 100% disjointed. His fist just passes through the bumper.

 

[Ulevo]

Since when does doing an upper cut make you invincible? I hardly see a comparative argument.

 

[Aquamentii]

About Shulk, since he was mentioned earlier:

Shulk suffers from the same problem that a lot of heavies, Ganon included suffer from. He likes to play at mid-range where big fat hitboxes and disjoints are at their most powerful. A Heavy/Sword character at their ideal range is a complete nightmare.

Problem is, all the top-tiers of this game be like

Spoiler

CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGE

Speaking of Ganon, Yoshi is definitely not one of Ganon's worst matchups. Eggs, while certainly a problem for Ganon, are still a big enough commitment that Ganon doesn't have to play around them as much as The Fabled Pointy Metal Things. Yoshi really just doesn't have much that Ganon hates to deal with. I'd say it's even matchup, dependent on outplaying the opponent, more than anything.

Sheik is utterly terrible. Definitely one of Ganon's matchups. It's still not something I'd call invalidating though. Once you get around 50-70% Sheik loses a lot of her scary F-air chains that are so good for gimping Ganon and she's forced to just peck away at you till F-tilt or something else kills.

ZSS... I dunno, but I definitely wouldn't say it's as bad as Sheik, certainly not "invalidating". ZSS is fast, has decent kill power, and that blasted Down B*. But, y'know, that frame 16 grab ruins everything once more. Ganondorf can quite literally roll through her and F-smash, guaranteed (right to the back of the head too, owch). More importantly, ZSS is light enough for it to be a serious issue for her, making her above-average kill power much less of an advantage. It's still undeniably in ZSS's favor though, customs off, and probably still in her favor (though less so) in customs on.

*To clarify, I only hate it because it doesn't make any bloody sense. Since when do Gymnastics = Invincibility?

Ill have to look at the Shulk-Ganon MU more closely before my opinion holds much water, but as long as Monando boy plays his counters right then that'd be difficult for Ganon definitely. I definitely agree with his struggling against sword wielders.
Yoshi is obviously a really strong character in this game and I just think that the things that make him strong are even more prominent in the Ganon MU.
Shiek is a nightmare. Her combos into Up air are devastating around the 80-100% margin. If Ganon can survive into really high percents then maybe he can put in some work.
Maybe I'm a little biased but my brother plays ZSS ( a really formulaic ZSS) and his style is what made me pick up other characters because I simply couldn't get in past his zoning. The matchup is tough but I'll re-evaluate it. And yeah, downB sucks to deal with.

 

[Blobface]

Ill have to look at the Shulk-Ganon MU more closely before my opinion holds much water, but as long as Monando boy plays his counters right then that'd be difficult for Ganon definitely. I definitely agree with his struggling against sword wielders.

It's even, but difficult to play for both. Both characters have a very similar gameplan and can murder each other off the tiniest mistake.

And I really don't mind the Down-B that much. And while invincibility is usually necessary in 2D fighters for one reason or another, it still makes my eye twitch involuntarily...

 

[Pazx]

Flip Jump doesn't trap anything offstage unless you have awful reaction time. You have to literally get a solid ground confirm near the ledge for most of those combos to work and you're probably just better off killing with B-air 90% of the time if that extremely specific situation presents itself. And if you landed D-smash, you probably are better off confirming F-smash in most situations. Also good luck timing a ledge denial spike in any situation except extremely poor DI.

I heavily disagree Flip Jump edgeguards matter in this matchup, or most matchups.
You also can't disrespect aerial Wizkick with F-air, which both stalls Ganon's momentum and is able to either kill vertically or spike. Ganon in general really doesn't have a lot of reason to worry about getting edgeguarded by F-air, honestly. And if Ganon DIs well he just has to either aerial Wizkick or fastfall airdodge to get a solid low recovery opportunity. Not a lot ZSS can do to contest directly.

Sheik is pretty awful by design, not much to say about that other than rage comebacks are how Ganon tries to win.

Also I definitely don't think Yoshi is anywhere near as hard as Luigi, Pikachu, or Rosalina for Ganon. Yoshi is pretty manageable for everyone in neutral, he's mostly just a heavy punish based character like Ganon honestly.

Can you tell us about the Luigi vs Ganon matchup? Surely a character that has worse mobility than you and is outranged by you should be easy to keep out. I personally think you overrate your character but saying you lose to Luigi seems inconsistent with your usual beliefs.

 

[Aquamentii]

Can you tell us about the Luigi vs Ganon matchup? Surely a character that has worse mobility than you and is outranged by you should be easy to keep out. I personally think you overrate your character but saying you lose to Luigi seems inconsistent with your usual beliefs.

Luigi combos Ganon pretty badly, just as much as any other large heavy character. His tornado is particularly nasty with Gimps, and there isn't a lot Ganon can do when he gets Dthrow to Dair spiked at the edge at 50%. Fireballs also help in locking down Ganon's options. Rough is the life of the King of Evil..

 

[Ffamran]

Since when does doing an upper cut make you invincible? I hardly see a comparative argument.

It's a game. Would you like to argue (Dr.) Mario's Super Jump Punch, Marth and Lucina's Dolphin Slash, Roy's Blazer - sounds like I'm talking about his clothing -, DK's Spinning Kong, Sonic's Spring Jump, and Sheik's Vanish Jump thing?

 

[Lavani]

It's a game. Would you like to argue (Dr.) Mario's Super Jump Punch, Marth and Lucina's Dolphin Slash, Roy's Blazer - sounds like I'm talking about his clothing -, DK's Spinning Kong, Sonic's Spring Jump, and Sheik's Vanish Jump thing?

You missed the point of his post, he was making a comment rather similar to yours about what Blobface said regarding Flip Jump's invincibility.

Also Dr. Mario's SJP doesn't have invuln.

 

[Ffamran]

You missed the point of his post, he was making a comment rather similar to yours about what Blobface said regarding Flip Jump's invincibility.

Also Dr. Mario's SJP doesn't have invuln.

I'm just adding to the absurdities.

Like how Falco's Blaster functions in throws are different than normal use. I wonder, what if Falco's throws minus D-throw all had set knockback, well, set knockback with the laser?

I thought Dr. Mario's SJP had I-frames... Or was that the Doc's Ol' One-Two?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can you tell us about the Luigi vs Ganon matchup? Surely a character that has worse mobility than you and is outranged by you should be easy to keep out. I personally think you overrate your character but saying you lose to Luigi seems inconsistent with your usual beliefs.

Luigi's Fireball is extremely stupid to play around and forces a lot of guesses from Ganon especially since it does enough damage to clank against Ganon's attacks, and Ganon HATES clanking which generally leaves him at a huge frame disadvantage. It's one of the best projectiles in the game at denying Ganon from playing his normal midrange pressure game given Luigi can have two out at a time, and even if Ganon powershields it, he still has to guess to defend against Luigi's next action which could either be a F-air, a (delayed) grab, or even a forward roll, and on normal block he's at a disadvantage.

Believe it or not, there are player that can time ZSS's down b to hit Ganon recovering low. It's not like they do the action right when Ganon starts using his up b, they do it way before. It is possible to be able to tell when Ganon is recovering low based on the distance he must travel to recover. If he is barely in or out of Side B's recovery range, Ganon will most likely recover low. It's easier to see than u think.

Which again, sounds like a bad DI situation where Ganon has only ONE recovery option. Doesn't work that way most of the time. Even just varying the timing of midair jump can create a pretty huge variance in when Ganon reaches the ledge.

Guard Breaker is frankly junk against anyone who has seen it before and isn't going to be surprised by the armor or try to shield it.

I like Mac in customs strictly because Grounding Blow is such an absolutely critical recovery mixup.



Starts on frame 12, which is slower than human reaction time and basically not useful as an escape tool.

Guard Breaker is way superior for recovery than Grounding Blow. Dunno how you even just casually ignore this. Yes it's trash for getting out of juggles, but when recovering NOTHING stops it except windboxes/grabs, meaning you get the ledge for free once you reach a certain range.

Grounding Blow is much more interesting as a raw punish option, but for simply recovering offstage, Guard Breaker is what Mac wants.

 

[Ikes]

my brother discovered that Dr. Mario's upB has a HUGE speetspot in front of him

he's gonna make a proper video of it later and ill post it here then, but it's like just about the size or slightly larger than the width of Doc while standing.