Character Competitive Impressions

[Jaguar360]

My one big question out of the last several pages (besides "whoa, why is everyone suddenly so hostile?") is "Wait, how on earth does non-custom G&W kill anyone?" His KO potential seems nearly DHD-level.

D-throw to U-air, but if you miss the window for that...you gotta fish hard for a smash/f-tilt or get a good edgeguard in with f-air/b-air. There's also Oil Panic against energy projectile users. But yeah, his kill power is kinda underwhelming in non-customs.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

My one big question out of the last several pages (besides "whoa, why is everyone suddenly so hostile?") is "Wait, how on earth does non-custom G&W kill anyone?" His KO potential seems nearly DHD-level.

Dtrow -> uair is a thing and can kill well below 100% with a bit of rage.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Samus was at one point supposed to be the strongest in the game, but she doesn't seem very cohesive... like, she has good weight, a decent air game and anti-air game, but not so much a strong ground game, what with less ability to cover space in front of her. Thoughts, anyone?

There has been a lot of effort by many people into the Samus metagame, quick tour of the Samus boards and you'll see some pretty amazing stuff. From guaranteed 50+ damage aerial charge shot true combos (landing in real game, not just training mode) to advanced reverse charge shot ledge trumps, to jab locks, to advanced grab combos, frame traps, understanding the tech chases, auto-kills out shield break, etc...
The character is very, very deep. We don't yet have a player that has mastered everything, but people are making big strides and we're starting to see some wins and high placements in locals. No guarantee that it all sums up to being net positive over the very obvious negatives but we're trying man, man we're trying. The designers definitely did not make things easy, it's all hardcore tech to compensate for basic problems.

Shameless plug of my recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes

 

[TriTails]

There has been a lot of effort by many people into the Samus metagame, quick tour of the Samus boards and you'll see some pretty amazing stuff. From guaranteed 50+ damage aerial charge shot true combos (landing in real game, not just training mode) to advanced reverse charge shot ledge trumps, to jab locks, to advanced grab combos, frame traps, understanding the tech chases, auto-kills out shield break, etc...
The character is very, very deep. We don't yet have a player that has mastered everything, but people are making big strides and we're starting to see some wins and high placements in locals. No guarantee that it all sums up to being net positive over the very obvious negatives but we're trying man, man we're trying. The designers definitely did not make things easy, it's all hardcore tech to compensate for basic problems.

Shameless plug of my recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes

Thanks for the video. Now I know not to underestimate the power of ground-only spike U-tilt .

 

[bc1910]

Gdubs' hoo hah is indeed very good. His throw game in general is something of a saving grace for him I think. You can typically kill middleweights at 100% with it. DI away can mess it up a little though.

 

[Ulevo]

What is bad about it? You can arrange the characters in any order in their respective tiers.

You have Ike and Peach in Top, Ganondorf, Link, Toon Link, Bowser, and Charizard in Middle-High, Meta Knight, Zelda, Lucario in Middle Low, and Dedede, Kirby, G&W, and Dr. Mario in Low. Excluding your unorthodox way of grouping, these are rather unsubstantiated.

 

[NickRiddle]

People are shocked that Radical Larry's opinions are... different?
Have you seen his posts?

 

[PUK]

You have Ike and Peach in Top, Ganondorf, Link, Toon Link, Bowser, and Charizard in Middle-High, Meta Knight, Zelda, Lucario in Middle Low, and Dedede, Kirby, G&W, and Dr. Mario in Low. Excluding your unorthodox way of grouping, these are rather unsubstantiated.

Well you could argue that Peach is top tier, toonie middle high, lucario and Zelda middle low, dedede low. But yeah puting MK and Zelda on the same level, among the others things, is kinda different ( dumb)

 

[Thinkaman]

People are shocked that Radical Larry's opinions are... different?
Have you seen his posts?

Agreed. The reruns of people flipping out at his opinions are far more repetitive and annoying than Larry himself.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm kinda curious to see what are your opinions on Swordifghter...
But i also want to learn more about Gunner

 

[HeavyLobster]

Larry's a master troll. Don't take him seriously.

 

[GeneralLedge]

But if we didn't take him seriously, how reputable would the term 'master troll' really be?

That aside, I too would like to see where Mii Sword is fabricated on his tier list.

 

[Zelder]

Little Mac goes like, 90:10 versus anyone with a windbox move.

If your opponent picks Gust Cape just put the controller down amigo, shake their hand, and then walk away.

 

[bc1910]

Larry has also said that most of his posts aren't meant to be taken seriously. Considering he said most and not all, who knows when he's joking and when he's not? Makes reacting to him at all pretty pointless.

Mii Sword does seem to be rising in most people's opinions lately though.

 

[Zelder]

Oh yeah, the gag of "all my posts in this ostensibly informative topic are stupid and baseless" is hilarious and he should keep doing it. I think I might get in on it.

Jigglypuff is the heaviest character in Smash 4, meaning she harshly counters Diddy, who has no up-B for recovery.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh yeah, the gag of "all my posts in this ostensibly informative topic are stupid and baseless" is hilarious and he should keep doing it. I think I might get in on it.

Jigglypuff is the heaviest character in Smash 4, meaning she harshly counters Diddy, who has no up-B for recovery.

Dedede is top tier. Beats the top tiers handily, 90:10.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ffamran]

Keep up the trolling and being wise guys and gals and enjoy infractions piling up. It's okay to joke around from time to time, but if you're just here to post nonsense, go somewhere else.

 

[Radical Larry]

Keep up the trolling and being wise guys and gals and enjoy infractions piling up. It's okay to joke around from time to time, but if you're just here to post nonsense, go somewhere else.

Hey, I'm not a bad guy, it's just a bit surprising, okay?

Though, you have to take me seriously sometimes and differentiate between the bad and the good posts; you may think I know nothing of what I'm talking about, though in reality, I know what I'm talking about, it's just I don't use overly complicated measures for my posts. If I did that, then I'd make absolutely no sense.

I know how to play the game, and I definitely know my characters. I'm just different in my posts; I'm the kind of guy that talks about the positive aspects to characters when the negative aspects arise and vice versa. I talk about things that can definitely happen with a character through hard reads. I'm not a complete liar, but I know what I'm talking about with my characters when I play them.

An example being that Link's U-Throw can make your opponent air dodge at a low damage, meaning if you read it just right, you can start juggling your opponent effectively with U-Tilt, U-Smash and U-Air. His U-Air can also punish air dodging opponents, since it lasts longer than the opponent can even air dodge; same with Toon Link and Palutena (with her N-Air and U-Air).

I'm not trying to be a troll or a bad guy, that just isn't me.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Dedede is top tier. Beats the top tiers handily, 90:10.

Smooth Criminal

100:0 He is perfect after all.

Actually I know jack **** about Dedede in this. I miss his Brawl bair too much to play him. I just remember seeing this one guy trolling SUPER hard a while back. Who are his notable players?

 

[DairunCates]

100:0 He is perfect after all.

Actually I know jack **** about Dedede in this. I miss his Brawl bair too much to play him. I just remember seeing this one guy trolling SUPER hard a while back. Who are his notable players?

I don't think many people main Dedede, but I know a lot of people keep a pocket Dedede for pools and specific matchups. He hasn't seen a terrible amount of major competitive use, but a lot of people just like to use him for styling since he has a lot of kill moves and is pretty silly at times. Honestly, several characters don't have a "major player" yet because of the size of the roster and the general youth of the metagame. But yeah. I haven't personally seen D3 win any games, but a friend that runs a weekly online tournament knows a few mains. Just nobody that's made a name for themselves.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

100:0 He is perfect after all.

Actually I know jack **** about Dedede in this. I miss his Brawl bair too much to play him. I just remember seeing this one guy trolling SUPER hard a while back. Who are his notable players?

Off the top of my head:

Cook (highest placing one here in the States so far, got 5th at a major)

Jdawg (MD/VA D3)

Vex Kasrani (iirc he's not playing him anymore, however)

Ronan (my senpai in Tampa, does very well against some of our best players)

There's also a couple of exceptional D3s in Japan and Germany, too.

I guess you could count me, but I haven't done anything significant like the rest of these guys. Then you have the knowledgeable folk around the D3 boards like Lavani, Fim, and Soul Train.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Radical Larry]

(Anyways, I get it, my tier list is obviously not up to your standards, sorry about it.)

I don't think many people main Dedede, but I know a lot of people keep a pocket Dedede for pools and specific matchups. He hasn't seen a terrible amount of major competitive use, but a lot of people just like to use him for styling since he has a lot of kill moves and is pretty silly at times. Honestly, several characters don't have a "major player" yet because of the size of the roster and the general youth of the metagame. But yeah. I haven't personally seen D3 win any games, but a friend that runs a weekly online tournament knows a few mains. Just nobody that's made a name for themselves.

Well, King Dedede's turnoffs are his lack of speed in general and his heavy weight allowing him to be juggled, as well as his Gordo being a very unsafe projectile. Though he has his fast D-Smash going for him, some decent edge-guarding capabilities and impressive range on his hammer, as well as impressive attack power, as well as an annoying dash D-Tilt that is very effective.

His main problem is that the Gordo can be hit back toward him like a homing missile, and deal more damage than what was originally pulled out. Oddly enough, however, infinite jabs, Sheik's Needles and Bowser's Fire Breath don't seem to have any effect on the Gordo and will hit the intended opponent, probably due to none of the attacks dealing more than 2% damage each (3% is needed to knock it back, I think).

 

[Smooth Criminal]

2% is needed, Larry, and any attack that does a base 1% of damage will not trade/beat out a Gordo. The Gordo will beat it clean. D-Smash isn't that fast (@Lavani: 14 frames?). Dtilt is arguably D3's fastest move (6 frames), followed by nair (about 8-9 frames with a long active hitbox/sourspot)---quite good, but not exactly great. Ground speed is fine, but it's his aerial mobility and fat frame that really gets him into a lot of trouble. Slower than average normals across the board don't help much, either.

His edgeguarding abilities are more than "decent." They're actually exceptional. He's one of the few characters in this game that can go out there into the wild blue yonder safely and send your stock packing off of a mistimed jump or recovery attempt; multiple jumps and his fall speed actually assist in this very well. His recovery is decent, providing you don't goof up and recover at an angle that does not autosnap the edge. I'm also beginning to delve into D3's okizeme game as well---tech chasing is ****ing beast on this character. I've found that he actually has semi-reliable vortex setups at low-ish percentages or on a properly read tech, plus jab resets/restands that scoop 'em up into followups like dtilt or grabs. Throwing Gordos into that mix only sweetens the deal, making some situations even more ambiguous (not true 50/50s, mind) that can lead to lost stocks (disclaimer: floaties aren't very susceptible to this bull****, but I'm figuring out stuff for them). His slow normals are also meaty as hell, so as long as you get the preempt and (try to) space well, you'll have good time beating out stuff with his disjoints.

...despite all of this, however, I do feel that D3 is a character that's still constrained by kits better equipped to beat out his most optimal style of play, which (I've said a million times) is counteroffensively. He's definitely low tier. I don't want ya'll to take my labbing/practice/playing like he's a secret high tier or something. Just clearing up some ****.

I'm hoping I can get him to compete.

Smooth Criminal

 

[mimgrim]

My problem with D3 in 4 is the same as my problem with Toon Link (and Mario as well, and sorta kinda Olimar as well but in Oli's case it is a case of perfering him in Brawl instead of Project M).

By that I mean they just feel absolutely perfect in Project M and trying to play them in Smash 4 just feels bad in comparison. (And this is why I don't play the same character(s) among the different Smash games).

 

[Man Li Gi]

Off the top of my head:

Cook (highest placing one here in the States so far, got 5th at a major)

Jdawg (MD/VA D3)

Vex Kasrani (iirc he's not playing him anymore, however)

Ronan (my senpai in Tampa, does very well against some of our best players)

There's also a couple of exceptional D3s in Japan and Germany, too.

I guess you could count me, but I haven't done anything significant like the rest of these guys. Then you have the knowledgeable folk around the D3 boards like Lavani, Fim, and Soul Train.
Smooth Criminal

Have you heard of Slavoslav? His KD3 is legit too. He bopped like everyone in a tourney.

There has been a lot of effort by many people into the Samus metagame, quick tour of the Samus boards and you'll see some pretty amazing stuff. From guaranteed 50+ damage aerial charge shot true combos (landing in real game, not just training mode) to advanced reverse charge shot ledge trumps, to jab locks, to advanced grab combos, frame traps, understanding the tech chases, auto-kills out shield break, etc...
The character is very, very deep. We don't yet have a player that has mastered everything, but people are making big strides and we're starting to see some wins and high placements in locals. No guarantee that it all sums up to being net positive over the very obvious negatives but we're trying man, man we're trying. The designers definitely did not make things easy, it's all hardcore tech to compensate for basic problems.

Shameless plug of my recent video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kc4TQd5rGes

Dat Samus spike setup was sick!

Also, while I think FG is great place to test setups and such, using that as a barometer for how deep a character is not the right method. Since some Samus mains are starting to get some results, my interest is now piqued in the character. Will you be in CEO or EVO to show these skills or will I have to scour through YouTube.



My previous question was also ignored, Kirby, who has been nerfed, does he, land in low mid or just mid?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

OH ****!

@slavoslav is the awesome German D3 I was talking about! @Budget Player Cadet_ mentioned him a while back.

Semi-topical: As for Kirby? Not gonna lie, I'm definitely curious about the character enough to experiment with him. Tbh I find him to be kinda average? Good buttons, meh range, meh mobility. Any breakout players for him yet?

Smooth Criminal

 

[~ Gheb ~]

El Bardo from Spain also has a pretty legit DDD.

 

[Man Li Gi]

OH ****!

@slavoslav is the awesome German D3 I was talking about! @Budget Player Cadet_ mentioned him a while back.

Semi-topical: As for Kirby? Not gonna lie, I'm definitely curious about the character enough to experiment with him. Tbh I find him to be kinda average? Good buttons, meh range, meh mobility. Any breakout players for him yet?

Smooth Criminal

Yeah, I played Slavoslav in an online tourney where he didn't drop a game. If kirby had thr range he did in Brawl, my goodness. He doesn't need the power bar his uthrow, but the range is absolute killer. What gets me is that uthrow in the demo was hella strong. Obviously they had to nerf it as it was killing like at 90, if it could kill reliably by ~120, that could give Kirby a nonnhard read kill move and could bump him up in useage.

 

[DairunCates]

OH ****!

@slavoslav is the awesome German D3 I was talking about! @Budget Player Cadet_ mentioned him a while back.

Yeah. Looking him up. He's definitely got a very solid D3. His edge-guarding coverage is insane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkdOIBw_z_w

 

[DungeonMaster]

Dat Samus spike setup was sick! Since some Samus mains are starting to get some results, my interest is now piqued in the character. Will you be in CEO or EVO to show these skills or will I have to scour through YouTube.

Thanks! A bunch of people contributed to finding and developing that one, a shield break basically means death. I personally won't be at the tournament (work ...) but I know several experienced Samus mains are planning on attending CEO.
She actually has a bunch of true combos into spikes.

Here is the combo thread and a few other videos:
http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-string-list-and-knowledge-compendium.391853/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaPveD9XHFA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_pauGLVAKg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yei6oxLzRjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUDgb7QB9r8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SovnKKIFMlc
I don't want to spam/advertise in this thread more than that, there's a lot of info out there on the Samus boards and although it was slow to start we are finding new things weekly, even daily, and have been for months now.

 

[Trifroze]

Not sure if this is known, but it's something I noticed today. All dthrows I've tested cap at 41 frames of hitstun, being cancellable with an airdodge, jump or attack on frame 42 at about 40% where it caps. After that though, jumping or attacking out of hitstun becomes increasingly slower until at least 150% (highest I tested). For example at 120% you can airdodge from Falcon's dthrow on 42, jump on 49-51 (heavier characters seem to be able to jump earlier) and attack on 47. The airdodge and attack frames seem to be the same with every dthrow but the jumping frame changes a little bit and for some reason heavies are able to jump earlier than lightweights.

Other moves usually have more hitstun, but they work with similar logic where jumping or attacking out of them is slower and slower the higher you go. Makes sense considering airdodge is the most dangerous option while jumping is the safest, however attacking is somewhere between those. Really makes moves like ZSS' down b too good for escaping setups.

This is also the reason training mode combo counter is broken. It only stops counting combos once you're able to jump or possibly attack out of hitstun even though you can airdodge before that, making it more unrealiable the higher the % is.

EDIT: probably the wrong topic to post this on but it's pretty central

 

[Nobie]

I know competitive players don't really bother playing against the Level 9 CPU too much, but based on how the CPU has improved since the last patch, I have this sneaking suspicion that high-level play on For Glory/in tournaments actually has an influence on the development of the AI after every patch.

Things I've noticed that the CPU does that are common/notable in high-level play:

-Mario now does down throw into up tilt at low percents.
-Luigi will use Cyclone to recover from low, like how Boss and others do.
-Computer opponents will actually empty jump into grab to mess with shields.

If anything, I think this is the greatest evidence aside from patches that Nintendo pays attention.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I know competitive players don't really bother playing against the Level 9 CPU too much, but based on how the CPU has improved since the last patch, I have this sneaking suspicion that high-level play on For Glory/in tournaments actually has an influence on the development of the AI after every patch.

Things I've noticed that the CPU does that are common/notable in high-level play:

-Mario now does down throw into up tilt at low percents.
-Luigi will use Cyclone to recover from low, like how Boss and others do.
-Computer opponents will actually empty jump into grab to mess with shields.

If anything, I think this is the greatest evidence aside from patches that Nintendo pays attention.

My Peach AI loves her grounded floating aerials and everyone seems to have it in for the ducks on Duck Hunt.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

So angel cortez just called out basically every region and other top players. Anyone see this?

 

[Nu~]

So angel cortez just called out basically every region and other top players. Anyone see this?

He's talking out of his ass again

 

[LiteralGrill]

So angel cortez just called out basically every region and other top players. Anyone see this?

...

Who?

 

[Firefoxx]

So angel cortez just called out basically every region and other top players. Anyone see this?

That was one of the most unhinged things I've ever read. Dude's gonna be giving away a lot of money pretty soon.

 

[TriTails]

Mario's AI is actually dumber than in pre-patch. He used to do JC OoS U-smash SOOOOOOO MUCH. Now? OoS Fireball. Whut?

Oh yeah. Luigis actually DO use Jumped Cyclone. What a thing to happen.

And they still read your button inputs.

 

[Shaya]

I read through it all, it's a lot of what I'd expect from an adolescent. Quite a bit of illogical / nonsensical things were said.
Either way, would prefer that it didn't become a focal point of discussion here, it's no where near the same intent with positive results that ZeRo's was (which kept to just about the game... not personal insults).

 

[Man Li Gi]

Is there a link or am I just going to have to assume what he said was bad? I mean I started giving out likes without understanding the while situation.

NVM, just read it and lolz.