Character Competitive Impressions

[san.]

It'd be nice to see more theory about swordfighter. I just see people using him and winning somehow.

 

[GeneralLedge]

It'd be nice to see more theory about swordfighter. I just see people using him and winning somehow.

Nah, let's move on to the next thing instead. (partial /s, but really now that's the usual)

So, hypothetical: If every character in the game were perfectly balanced (hahahahaha), which tier would/should they all fall under? S? A? B?

 

[Nu~]

Nah, let's move on to the next thing instead. (partial /s, but really now that's the usual)

So, hypothetical: If every character in the game were perfectly balanced (hahahahaha), which tier would/should they all fall under? S? A? B?

Why would there even be a tier list?

 

[Smog Frog]

i need context here. is this assuming every character is the same, or that everyone is truly balanced? if every character is the same, then its a ****ty fighting game, but if every character was balanced, there would still be tiers because outside factors make certain designs stronger than others(eg: wavedashing buffing offensive designs, brawl's airdodge buffing defensive, etc) but there would likely only be S and A.


edit: http://www.twitch.tv/abadango abadango has a stream and is answering questions. go crazy

 

[~ Gheb ~]

care to elaborate?

G&W was bad in Brawl.

He is not bad in Smash 4.

 

[warriorman222]

Why would there even be a tier list?

What I'm guessing he means is "What tier to balance the cast off of?"

 

[|RK|]

Nah, let's move on to the next thing instead. (partial /s, but really now that's the usual)

So, hypothetical: If every character in the game were perfectly balanced (hahahahaha), which tier would/should they all fall under? S? A? B?

Tier lists are partially based upon popularity and assumptions. Even with perfect balance, people may (erroneously, perhaps) assume one character is better than another. That leads to both quicker metagame advances as well as consistent placing. How good some other character is will be determined by how well they match with the popular character, as well as how they compare. Everyone would still be in separate tiers.

 

[Diddy Kong]

G&W was bad in Brawl.

He is not bad in Smash 4.

k then.

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont follow. can you explain why was bad but is not bad?

 

[warriorman222]

i dont follow. can you explain why was bad but is not bad?

The Arcanine gives me a feeling he was joshing.

 

[Trifroze]

Lucarios should use wavebounce Aura Sphere charges more. The chargeup hitboxes chain into Usmash and Bair cleanly, and is probably the easiest non-throw kill setup in this game.

Aura Sphere charge facing away from the ledge also produces the most one sided "Heads I win, Tails you lose" setup for recovering foes that even Wario's Bite can't acclaim to. Do you try and contest the charge and lose because lol aura and get sucked into Bair or Usmash, or do you ledge roll or jump over, with a fully charged Aura Sphere ready to greet you when you get up?

You can drop backfrom the ledge, jump and airdodge through it with almost every character though or drop back and use an aerial that clips through the stage and/or aura sphere, hits Lucario and is fast enough not to be reacted to.

 

[Makorel]

You can escape from Aura Sphere pretty easily too.

 

[Luco]

The Arcanine gives me a feeling he was joshing.

Hehehe, Gheb always uses Arcanine in his posts. He's also quite famous for his one/two liners. He is probably telling the truth.

International exposure is getting better, and more and more scenes globally are becoming incentivised to maintain an active smash scene in order to 'get up to par' with the world's power scenes. Do you guys think we'll be seeing more and more international threats as the metagame develops? And considering the differing results/tier lists/perhaps even character viability itself in Japan, do you think these scenes would drastically change our tier lists/other impressions?

 

[Firefoxx]

Hehehe, Gheb always uses Arcanine in his posts. He's also quite famous for his one/two liners. He is probably telling the truth.

International exposure is getting better, and more and more scenes globally are becoming incentivised to maintain an active smash scene in order to 'get up to par' with the world's power scenes. Do you guys think we'll be seeing more and more international threats as the metagame develops? And considering the differing results/tier lists/perhaps even character viability itself in Japan, do you think these scenes would drastically change our tier lists/other impressions?

I mean more results like Villyness winning BAM7 and Ranai winning that one tournament he won would probably have large impacts in how we see certain characters. I mean, I don't think anyone considers Villager to be a bad character, but I know I personally didn't see them as major winning caliber. Now they have and I have to adjust my thinking. I think we would be pretty foolish to just ignore these two big wins because they didn't happen in America. So yeah, I think the international scene is going to change the way we think about the game and that's really exciting.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

i dont follow. can you explain why was bad but is not bad?

He actually has a ground game now.

 

[Nu~]

He actually has a ground game now.

Dtilt was legit though

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

There is one thing you have to consider when comparing Mewtwo's and Ganon's punish and read games; namely, that Ganon
is completely and utterly specialized in doing so. He has to get in close to play his game but he has next to the worse
mobility in the game (only Robin is worse due to lack of burst options) nor does he have anything that forces opponents
to come to him. Nearly all of his options for getting in can be punished. Given all that Ganon has to deal with in order
to start working, he NEEDS to be able to soak up some mistakes, and it's only fair that he gets more reward on average.
Still, if he had anything close to Mewtwo's weight he'd undoubtedly be considered worse.

Mewtwo, on the other hand, does not strictly have to get in to do work. Yes it's where he gets his biggest payoffs,
but unlike Ganon he does not always have to fight to get in. Shadow balls are good projectiles whether they're charged
or not, and their low endlag means that he has an almost Luigi-like ability to follow them and capitalize. Only their slowish
startup prevents them from being truly spammable. He can say no to projectile zoning with a powerful projectile of his own
and a reflector. It really can't be stressed enough: if Mewtwo can't get in safely, he almost always has shadow balls to fall
back on. Only fast characters take this advantage away. He can get guaranteed kills off of a grab which is something even the mighty Ganon can't do. His edgeguarding is only somewhat less potent than Ganon's, but his recovery allows him
to go far deeper.

tl;dr: Mewtwo may not have the raw power or punish ability of Ganon up close, but unlike him he's not entirely
reliant on being there, since he has more varied ways of getting kills and has more answers to projectiles than just defending

Oh, I know. And I completely agree with you.

In fact, I hold the firm belief that the best way to play Mewtwo competitively is to not be overly aggressive with him. You do that too often with Mewtwo, and you are almost certain to end most of your stocks early. But rather, the best way to play Mewtwo competitively is that players should adopt a hit-and-run strategy with Mewtwo.


Mewtwo has better frame data (?) and mobility in comparison to Ganondorf. Both on the ground and in the air. This means that he has just a little bit more leeway in the amount of space he can move, even if he can't control that space as well as Ganondorf can because he doesn't have as many threatening options. Mewtwo has Shadow Ball to help him in neutral, but I think that Mewtwo players should take it a step beyond that to help step up their game.

When you combine the fact that Mewtwo has decent-good mobility, high knockback moves, throws that send the opponent far away, and his Shadow Ball: That is how players are going to tap in to Mewtwo's true potential in Smash 4. Mewtwo's should focus less on chasing opponents after hitting them (unless they are guaranteed a follow-up such as after a Dtilt), but rather they should fall back and start charging their Shadow Ball. Opponent gets too close for comfort? Dtilt -> Fair and then immediately back off and start charging. Or Jab 1 -> Fthrow/Bthrow and start charging. Or try to do retreating Bairs to create space between you and your opponent. Mewtwo has just enough mobility, range, and knockback to get away with this. And I feel as though Mewtwo players should abuse this strategy to make the most of his kit.

By playing more defensively, Mewtwo can somewhat patch up his poor defensive options just a little bit. While at the same time, he can condition players to be more aggressive, and then abuse this by going on the aggressive himself and then immediately fall back unless he has something guaranteed or when trying to edgeguard/go for a hard read. And Mewtwo becomes a bit more threatening when he has a fully charged Shadow Ball ready to go.


However, he still has plenty of flaws that he has to work around. Rushdown characters still won't have much trouble getting back in even if they are knocked far away. And Shadow Ball takes AGES to charge, coupled with the fact that it has long startup lag like you said. Which is really unfortunate because it is so valuable to Mewtwo. It makes him more threatening, but only slightly more-so. Sure, it does a ton of damage if it hits and can certainly end a stock early, but he only has one shot with it. A single shot that is slow to charge, slow to fire, and is pretty predictable. And unless they are slightly charged, Shadow Balls only do like 2% damage and barely any knockback so the reward is minimal even if they are slightly annoying. But the small SBs are nowhere near as potent as Luigi's Fireball which does 6-5%, or Shiek's needles which have a lot more knockback attached to them. At least in comparison to uncharged Shadow Balls anyways. It makes me REALLY wish his Shadow Ball gets a buff in a future patch. Because if Mewtwo's uncharged SBs had something like Shiek's needles knockback, he would probably jump up a tier in viability. Or at least a faster charge time or something.

And while it is great that Mewtwo has a reflector to help cover him from enemy projectiles, it also takes away time he could be charging his own projectile. It definitely helps against certain matchups, but in some instances I would rather just avoid or block the projectile instead so that I can get more charge time for SB unless I am reflecting a high-knockback projectile. So while being able to reflect projectiles does prevent you from getting damaged and it potentially lets you return that damage to your opponent, enemy projectiles still hinder Mewtwo's ability to charge up his SB whenever he wants to.

Ultimately, while SB is one of Mewtwo's greatest tools and players should focus on using it more (in conjunction with hit-and-run strategies), he still can't abuse SB as effectively as other projectile users due to SB's own weaknesses. So I think it is a little overvauled/overhyped, especially the uncharged version. It helps Mewtwo have a niche in comparison to Ganondorf and it also means that Mewtwo doesn't always have to approach (in fact he would probably prefer to rarely approach), but I don't think it is as good as some other players do.


In my opinion, you always want to have Shadow Ball at least partially charged. Not only do you increase its damage (around 10-15%), but the biggest benefit is that it increases the knockback/speed/recoil of the move. And all of these factors greatly help the move's viability in the neutral state. It increases the damage output by about 5-8x, the additional knockback gives you more time to charge another SB and keep opponents off your back, the speed increase helps the chances of SB landing on the opponent, and the slight recoil increase (when used in the air) gives you just a little bit more space to work with just in case you don't hit your opponent. So unless absolutely necessary, players should always at least charge Shadow Ball a little bit before firing it, since it increases the rewards of the move by a fair amount.

Plus if you hold a partial charge, it increases the priority of the move (to go through other projectiles), and it means that you are one step closer to getting a fully charged SB should you find the opportunity to do so.

 

[wm1026]

So I am curious as to why all the Bowser Jr. hate? I see most people put him as low or mid low. I honestly just don't understand how.. Especially after watching him being used effectively by tweek. That combo game.. So anyone got knowledge they want to shower on everyone? Cause I am stumped other than maybe he doesn't have to many early kill confirms? And not the best grab

 

[Djent]

was flat-out unviable thanks to , and / arguably invalidated him as well.

probably loses to a number of top tiers, but I'm not convinced any of them mollywhop him like his Brawl counterpart. [Insert stock comment about smaller tier gaps here.]

 

[MezzoMe]

Mewtwo has as well a projectile that Ganon hasn't(wich comes useful only to a certain point)
Also Confusion is technically a command grab, wich differentiates from the Flame Choke in that it needs a platform above in order to remotely being able to combo, it has less range, deals less damage, cannot Sacrifical K.O. with, doesn't leave him helpless and for no apparent reason Villager can poket it.
Did I miss something? I don't have Mewtwo myself.
@ wm1026 According to Dabuz, Tweek himself says that the character sucks.

 

[Antonykun]

my theory on why Swordfighter is winning tournaments
people look at swordfighter they ask themselves what the flip is a punfighter and lose because they underestimate them.
Mii Sword literally wins from the shadows

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Ulevo You quoted the part of the tier list, but not the part where it says that the characters are not in any specific order? It's not a bad tier list, you just forgot to read the part under it that specifies the characters weren't in any order, just the rows of tiers.

@SmashCapps Sorry, I knew I forgot one character; he belongs around Middle-Low Tier. I'm not putting him in Low Tier because he retains some viability and tournament results.

Mewtwo has as well a projectile that Ganon hasn't(wich comes useful only to a certain point)
Also Confusion is technically a command grab, wich differentiates from the Flame Choke in that it needs a platform above in order to remotely being able to combo, it has less range, deals less damage, cannot Sacrifical K.O. with, doesn't leave him helpless and for no apparent reason Villager can poket it.
Did I miss something? I don't have Mewtwo myself.
@ wm1026 According to Dabuz, Tweek himself says that the character sucks.

Well, you missed something about Ganondorf by the fact that he actually can combo with Flame Choke:
Flame Choke > F-Tilt
Flame Choke > D-Tilt
Flame Choke > Flame Choke (Read)
Flame Choke > Wizard's Foot (If the Opponent Rolls Away or uses the Attack Button)
Flame Choke > Dash (If the Opponent Rolls Away)

Flame Choke > F-Tilt is only capable of hitting characters who have hitboxes that can be hit by it; characters like Link and even Ganondorf himself will not get hit at all. Oddly enough, Shulk can get hit, despite lying on the ground similarly to Link and Marth.

 

[MezzoMe]

I actually said that Confusion needs a platform above in order to reliably combo, implying that Flame Choke can do that without any.

 

[Smog Frog]

?flame choke doesnt reliably combo? its easy to avoid FC->dtilt. flame choke is scary because it forces a tech chase situation where if you get read its possible you're reset in that situation or die at 60%. confusion is similarly great at forcing terrible positions.

 

[MezzoMe]

WAT

?flame choke doesnt reliably combo?

I actually said that Confusion needs a platform above in order to reliably combo, implying that Flame Choke can do that without any.

Where did you read that I said it can't reliably combo?

 

[Smog Frog]

WAT


Where did you read that I said it can't reliably combo?

i was wondering why you said it comboes because it doesnt

 

[MezzoMe]

Fair enough then.
I said that because Ganondorf can cover so many options that it's almost as if the opponent was caught in a combo.
Also several characters can't dodge the DTilt, in general those who can are slim characters and Fire Emblem Ones, any character that can be hit by Jab gets a true combo'd from it and I think that the same goes for FTilt.
If the opponent lands on the platform above, if he either teches in place, get up attacks or standard get ups he takes a guaranteed USmash, Bowser gets DTilted no matter what he does and if he doesn't tech, any non delayed option gets beaten by SH Dair.
In other words, Flame Choke gives to Ganondorf's opponent a limited sets of options, something highly important in order to combo an opponent and the base concept of disadvantaged states, of wich tech-chase is a type, juggling might be referred as a combo under this same concept, since the opponent has limited options to attack below him most of the time.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fair enough then.
I said that because Ganondorf can cover so many options that it's almost as if the opponent was caught in a combo.
Also several characters can't dodge the DTilt, in general those who can are slim characters and Fire Emblem Ones, any character that can be hit by Jab gets a true combo'd from it and I think that the same goes for FTilt.
If the opponent lands on the platform above, if he either teches in place, get up attacks or standard get ups he takes a guaranteed USmash, Bowser gets DTilted no matter what he does and if he doesn't tech, any non delayed option gets beaten by SH Dair.
In other words, Flame Choke gives four options to Ganondorf's opponent a limited sets of options, something highly important in order to combo an opponent and the base concept of disadvantaged states, of wich tech-chase is a type, juggling might be referred as a combo under this same concept, since the opponent has limited options to attack below him most of the time.

This, kids, is what we call okizeme. And then we talk about vortex setups, and...

You get the idea.

Smooth Criminal

 

[meleebrawler]

Oh, I know. And I completely agree with you.

In fact, I hold the firm belief that the best way to play Mewtwo competitively is to not be overly aggressive with him. You do that too often with Mewtwo, and you are almost certain to end most of your stocks early. But rather, the best way to play Mewtwo competitively is that players should adopt a hit-and-run strategy with Mewtwo.


Mewtwo has better frame data (?) and mobility in comparison to Ganondorf. Both on the ground and in the air. This means that he has just a little bit more leeway in the amount of space he can move, even if he can't control that space as well as Ganondorf can because he doesn't have as many threatening options. Mewtwo has Shadow Ball to help him in neutral, but I think that Mewtwo players should take it a step beyond that to help step up their game.

When you combine the fact that Mewtwo has decent-good mobility, high knockback moves, throws that send the opponent far away, and his Shadow Ball: That is how players are going to tap in to Mewtwo's true potential in Smash 4. Mewtwo's should focus less on chasing opponents after hitting them (unless they are guaranteed a follow-up such as after a Dtilt), but rather they should fall back and start charging their Shadow Ball. Opponent gets too close for comfort? Dtilt -> Fair and then immediately back off and start charging. Or Jab 1 -> Fthrow/Bthrow and start charging. Or try to do retreating Bairs to create space between you and your opponent. Mewtwo has just enough mobility, range, and knockback to get away with this. And I feel as though Mewtwo players should abuse this strategy to make the most of his kit.

By playing more defensively, Mewtwo can somewhat patch up his poor defensive options just a little bit. While at the same time, he can condition players to be more aggressive, and then abuse this by going on the aggressive himself and then immediately fall back unless he has something guaranteed or when trying to edgeguard/go for a hard read. And Mewtwo becomes a bit more threatening when he has a fully charged Shadow Ball ready to go.


However, he still has plenty of flaws that he has to work around. Rushdown characters still won't have much trouble getting back in even if they are knocked far away. And Shadow Ball takes AGES to charge, coupled with the fact that it has long startup lag like you said. Which is really unfortunate because it is so valuable to Mewtwo. It makes him more threatening, but only slightly more-so. Sure, it does a ton of damage if it hits and can certainly end a stock early, but he only has one shot with it. A single shot that is slow to charge, slow to fire, and is pretty predictable. And unless they are slightly charged, Shadow Balls only do like 2% damage and barely any knockback so the reward is minimal even if they are slightly annoying. But the small SBs are nowhere near as potent as Luigi's Fireball which does 6-5%, or Shiek's needles which have a lot more knockback attached to them. At least in comparison to uncharged Shadow Balls anyways. It makes me REALLY wish his Shadow Ball gets a buff in a future patch. Because if Mewtwo's uncharged SBs had something like Shiek's needles knockback, he would probably jump up a tier in viability. Or at least a faster charge time or something.

And while it is great that Mewtwo has a reflector to help cover him from enemy projectiles, it also takes away time he could be charging his own projectile. It definitely helps against certain matchups, but in some instances I would rather just avoid or block the projectile instead so that I can get more charge time for SB unless I am reflecting a high-knockback projectile. So while being able to reflect projectiles does prevent you from getting damaged and it potentially lets you return that damage to your opponent, enemy projectiles still hinder Mewtwo's ability to charge up his SB whenever he wants to.

Ultimately, while SB is one of Mewtwo's greatest tools and players should focus on using it more (in conjunction with hit-and-run strategies), he still can't abuse SB as effectively as other projectile users due to SB's own weaknesses. So I think it is a little overvauled/overhyped, especially the uncharged version. It helps Mewtwo have a niche in comparison to Ganondorf and it also means that Mewtwo doesn't always have to approach (in fact he would probably prefer to rarely approach), but I don't think it is as good as some other players do.


In my opinion, you always want to have Shadow Ball at least partially charged. Not only do you increase its damage (around 10-15%), but the biggest benefit is that it increases the knockback/speed/recoil of the move. And all of these factors greatly help the move's viability in the neutral state. It increases the damage output by about 5-8x, the additional knockback gives you more time to charge another SB and keep opponents off your back, the speed increase helps the chances of SB landing on the opponent, and the slight recoil increase (when used in the air) gives you just a little bit more space to work with just in case you don't hit your opponent. So unless absolutely necessary, players should always at least charge Shadow Ball a little bit before firing it, since it increases the rewards of the move by a fair amount.

Plus if you hold a partial charge, it increases the priority of the move (to go through other projectiles), and it means that you are one step closer to getting a fully charged SB should you find the opportunity to do so.

Passive-aggressiveness definitely benefits Mewtwo in general as a default strategy. However, when you factor
in Mewtwo's heavy punish abilities, you can stick more once you've identified opponent's habits, and he can get a lot
of opportunities to test them through things like dthrow, confusion and dtilt at higher percents. If they jump away which
is usually their safest option, Mewtwo gets more charging time.

I'd also like to point out that his uair pretty large horizontal reach that can let him attack with relatively little
risk of retaliation if spaced right.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Passive-aggressiveness definitely benefits Mewtwo in general as a default strategy. However, when you factor
in Mewtwo's heavy punish abilities, you can stick more once you've identified opponent's habits, and he can get a lot
of opportunities to test them through things like dthrow, confusion and dtilt at higher percents. If they jump away which
is usually their safest option, Mewtwo gets more charging time.

I'd also like to point out that his uair pretty large horizontal reach that can let him attack with relatively little
risk of retaliation if spaced right.

Yeah. All of it combined does give him potential, but every single one of his tools have multiple drawbacks to them, where-as other characters only have one or a couple of drawbacks to worry about. It puts a lot of chinks in his armor, beyond just his low weight, and all of those chinks combined weigh Mewtwo down more than his benefits can keep up with in a larger portion of his matchups.

Still, he can work wonders for players who can make hard reads successfully and are able to get away with taking consistent risks without being scathed too badly. I can see him being better than characters like Zelda and King DeDeDe for sure. So he's probably somewhere around the higher portion of Low Tier or somewhere on the lower side of Mid Tier, but I can't see him getting much better than that even if a player masters him. Unless some sort of new, unknown tech can help him push past his limits.

...or Sakurai and his team give the psychic doppelganger some buffs. That would be very nice. Though I'll only worry about that whenever it actually happens.


As for Uair, I don't like it too much honestly. It has one of the worst "Meta Knight syndrome" hitboxes out of all of his moves. It hits horizontally in front of him at a pretty far distance...but only if the opponent is above Mewtwo's elevation. It doesn't hit below his center of gravity all that well, and this makes it extremely hard to hit characters that are around Mario's height or smaller. It would be an amazing defensive and approach tool otherwise, but as it is right now, I just can't bring myself to like it that much. I generally stick to Fair or Bair to cover myself in the air unless the opponent is above me.

It does well against taller opponents though. So it's a good to use against them unless they are crouching or something.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah. All of it combined does give him potential, but every single one of his tools have multiple drawbacks to them, where-as other characters only have one or a couple of drawbacks to worry about. It puts a lot of chinks in his armor, beyond just his low weight, and all of those chinks combined weigh Mewtwo down more than his benefits can keep up with in a larger portion of his matchups.

Still, he can work wonders for players who can make hard reads successfully and are able to get away with taking consistent risks without being scathed too badly. I can see him being better than characters like Zelda and King DeDeDe for sure. So he's probably somewhere around the higher portion of Low Tier or somewhere on the lower side of Mid Tier, but I can't see him getting much better than that even if a player masters him. Unless some sort of new, unknown tech can help him push past his limits.

...or Sakurai and his team give the psychic doppelganger some buffs. That would be very nice. Though I'll only worry about that whenever it actually happens.


As for Uair, I don't like it too much honestly. It has one of the worst "Meta Knight syndrome" hitboxes out of all of his moves. It hits horizontally in front of him at a pretty far distance...but only if the opponent is above Mewtwo's elevation. It doesn't hit below his center of gravity all that well, and this makes it extremely hard to hit characters that are around Mario's height or smaller. It would be an amazing defensive and approach tool otherwise, but as it is right now, I just can't bring myself to like it that much. I generally stick to Fair or Bair to cover myself in the air unless the opponent is above me.

It does well against taller opponents though. So it's a good to use against them unless they are crouching or something.

I don't see why you're trying to use it against ground opponents. Of course it hits above him, that's what an uair
is supposed to do. There are very few uairs good against ground opponents, which tend to be corkscrews like Samus or Greninja.

As it stands, it's reach makes it difficult to challenge from above unless you have something like a sword that swings
in a wide arc, provided you space it right. Nair is also a good defence against air-happy characters.

 

[bc1910]

G&W is as close as you can get to totally unviable without actually being unviable in Sm4sh, and that's literally only because of GimR. Nobody else works hard enough with him. To quote Dabuz, the character is hot garbage. Cute to see people defend him though.

Dthrow -> 9 isn't real btw

 

[Djent]

^ But Songun exists. His victory over Shogun and 4th/~170 finish are big as anything GimR has accomplished, and he doesn't lose to random Midwest s.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I'm not really sure why people consider g&w low tier. I consider him no less than a top 25 character and potentially top 20.

Let's get right into it G&W weight 3rd lightest in the game at 75. While that's a big deal I do not see people clsiming pikachu or fox to be bad because they vome in at a whooping 79. Four points seperate them. Yet gor some reason g&w is cast down as horrible and these guys are considered some of the best. Also Rosalina weighs 78 and kirby weighs in at 77 respectively. None of these characters are considered bad. Kirby maybe the worst of the ones I listed but he's not considered bottom five like g&w. ZSS sits at 81 and sheik sits at 85. But light characters can't compete right? Right?

Now some people may say wait a minute fox and pikachu have godly mobility which means they're harder to hit. G&W walk speed is actually in the middle of the pack at 25 and 28 in dash speed. He's slightly slower than pit in dash speed and faster than mario in walk speed. Which is respectable IMO where he shines is airspeed. Where he's fastest than most characters in the game (top ten). I think he has good mobility not great but it's respectable in the air he's one of the best. He also ties mario with the best horizontal speed interestingly enough mewtwo is in this group.

With that said what is mr game and watch actually working with? His nair is disjointed comes out frame 7 and does a whopping 16 percent if you get all of the hits. Then he also has a 4 frame jab which is respectable. His off stage game is great because of his recovery bair fair and nair. His up B is a great recovery tool combo ender. His grab is the typical 6/8/9 so he's not lacking in that department. He also has ridiculous follow ups from grabs.

I don't believe the bottom 5 people. Unfortunately, this thread has a group think type of mentality and people just parrot someone else's opinion. I have severe doubts about people's ability to judge a character when they claim weight is holding them back. Umm I'll probably compare g&w to melee jiggs.

 

[Dabuz]

Everything G&W has is easy to punish on whiff or block, that alone separates him from the other lightweights. He also doesn't have a good grab range and without good ground speed either, air approaching is his only real option, which leaves him wide open.

 

[Kofu]

I'm not really sure why people consider g&w low tier. I consider him no less than a top 25 character and potentially top 20.

Let's get right into it G&W weight 3rd lightest in the game at 75. While that's a big deal I do not see people clsiming pikachu or fox to be bad because they vome in at a whooping 79. Four points seperate them. Yet gor some reason g&w is cast down as horrible and these guys are considered some of the best. Also Rosalina weighs 78 and kirby weighs in at 77 respectively. None of these characters are considered bad. Kirby maybe the worst of the ones I listed but he's not considered bottom five like g&w. ZSS sits at 81 and sheik sits at 85. But light characters can't compete right? Right?

Now some people may say wait a minute fox and pikachu have godly mobility which means they're harder to hit. G&W walk speed is actually in the middle of the pack at 25 and 28 in dash speed. He's slightly slower than pit in dash speed and faster than mario in walk speed. Which is respectable IMO where he shines is airspeed. Where he's fastest than most characters in the game (top ten). I think he has good mobility not great but it's respectable in the air he's one of the best. He also ties mario with the best horizontal speed interestingly enough mewtwo is in this group.

With that said what is mr game and watch actually working with? His nair is disjointed comes out frame 7 and does a whopping 16 percent if you get all of the hits. Then he also has a 4 frame jab which is respectable. His off stage game is great because of his recovery bair fair and nair. His up B is a great recovery tool combo ender. His grab is the typical 6/8/9 so he's not lacking in that department. He also has ridiculous follow ups from grabs.

I don't believe the bottom 5 people. Unfortunately, this thread has a group think type of mentality and people just parrot someone else's opinion. I have severe doubts about people's ability to judge a character when they claim weight is holding them back. Umm I'll probably compare g&w to melee jiggs.

If full NAir connects it does 17% FYI (more than uncharged USmash/DSmash, lol). UAir does 16% if both hits connect. Unfortunately neither attack autolinks so it's all about positioning.

I'm not sure where I'd put Game & Watch to be honest. Definitely not bottom 5 but lower than you have him too. His dash attack is very good, he has excellent followups from grabs like you said, an entirely disjointed moveset, an amazing recovery, and strong juggling/edgeguarding capabilities. Where he falls short is killing. The real reason his weight is detrimental is because he gets his opponents up to high percents making it easier for them to kill him but not being able to land kill moves himself. Edgeguarding helps, but it you're up against an opponent that is hard to pin down and is hard to edgeguard, then they'll likely get to high percents before dying (Sheik and Mega Man come to mind). He is also walled out by some of the top tiers (Sheik again, also Rosalina and Diddy) which makes life hard. Lacking any low jump autocancel aerials hurts his air-to-ground game which would otherwise be one of his strengths.

There's still a lot to be explored for the character (DThrow to UAir kill percents, NAir landing to DSmash, more use of Judge, possible jab cancels, use of Chef and its customs, DTilt uses) which should help remedy his killing issues. He's definitely one of the more unexplored characters but as it stands I don't think he's in the top half of the roster.

Melee Puff had the ability to end stocks extremely early reliably (what distinguishes Rest from Judge 9), outstripped basically everyone in the air, and could edgeguard better than almost anyone (not familiar enough with Melee to know all the strong edgeguarders). Game & Watch is beat or matched in the air by about 1/4th of the cast, struggles to kill, and is in a game with a lot of dangerous edgeguarders. He doesn't stand out enough.

 

[bc1910]

Yeah sorry but Gdubs is bad for reasons I shouldn't have to and am not gonna bother to explain. The short version being landing lag on everything, no combos and one kill move, and I shouldn't even have had to say that.

GimR has achieved more consistency than Songun or any other G&W and you know it. Coming 4th in a 170 man tourney that wasn't even stacked means nothing next to consistent results in MD/VA. And it's only because GimR is good.

As I said, Gdubs sucks.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah sorry but Gdubs is bad for reasons I shouldn't have to and am not gonna bother to explain. The short version being landing lag on everything, no combos and one kill move, and I shouldn't even have had to say that.

GimR has achieved more consistency than Songun or any other G&W and you know it. Coming 4th in a 170 man tourney that wasn't even stacked means nothing next to consistent results in MD/VA. And it's only because GimR is good.

As I said, Gdubs sucks.

You might as well not even bothered to post. Lmfao

@ Kofu I think there's only 9 characters with better air speed than g&w. Which isn't really 1/4 just bring a stickler here. But I definitely think he's an air based character. Judgement not as good as rest. But I think the ability to flip a coin and eat a stock is pretty good.

@ Dabuz I don't think an aerial approach character is "wide open". There's a couple of strong air based characters in this game. His moveset doesn't seem that unsafe to me. But I'll need to look into it more.

 

[Ulevo]

@ Ulevo You quoted the part of the tier list, but not the part where it says that the characters are not in any specific order? It's not a bad tier list, you just forgot to read the part under it that specifies the characters weren't in any order, just the rows of tiers.

No. I stand by my statement. The list is bad.

 

[Dabuz]

You might as well not even bothered to post. Lmfao

@ Kofu I think there's only 9 characters with better air speed than g&w. Which isn't really 1/4 just bring a stickler here. But I definitely think he's an air based character. Judgement not as good as rest. But I think the ability to flip a coin and eat a stock is pretty good.

@ Dabuz I don't think an aerial approach character is "wide open". There's a couple of strong air based characters in this game. His moveset doesn't seem that unsafe to me. But I'll need to look into it more.

Being in the air is naturally a disadvantage, but the difference between G&W and those aerial based characters is also having a ground game, or disgustingly safe/ strong/ high damage aerials (AKA sheik fair). But even so, with lots of invincible upsmashes, disjoints, and the naturally strength of shields (only command grab characters really have an option to deal with this), and the ease of going SH->anti air of choice, it's hard to be in the air and actually land something against a good player. (Unless you have Sheik's frame data)