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Character Competitive Impressions

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ItsRainingGravy

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Mewtwo has a disadvantage against most characters in the game. Especially against aggro characters. Against an aggro character, he mostly loses outright. But against a normal character, he is usually going to have a slight disadvantage.

Sure, his incredibly low weight and large size are contributing factors, but they are not his biggest problems in concerns with competitive viability. Mewtwo's largest weaknesses are the longish startup lag on most of his attacks, how he can't use his tail as safely as sword-wielders, and how his hitboxes either have the "Meta Knight effect" (don't hit when they look like they should) or you have to be super-precise with them in order to send opponents where you want them to go.

Range is supposed to be one of Mewtwo's key strengths, but honestly, it's not nearly as good as it could be. Because of his tipper tail hits, and how his tail extends his hurtbox. Hitting with the tip of the tail usually always sends the opponent at unfavorable trajectories and does less damage. So not only does this make Mewtwo's damage output suffer, but it also severely cripples his rewards unless you are right in the opponent's face. And this is completely counter-intuitive to his playstyle. Because that is exactly where you don't want to be with him either. Due to his slower frame data, light weight but large body size (combos/juggles against you), and how Mewtwo doesn't really have any amazing OoS options to help save in in that situation.


All of the above problems combined creates Mewtwo's biggest flaw: He has to be exceptionally precise and take huge risks to get any significant rewards against opponents. And this amount of technicality rivals other characters such as Peach. The only difference is that Mewtwo doesn't come with the same strengths that those other characters possess. Peach has OoS options, her floating mechanic, faster frame data, and is even heavier than Mewtwo while STILL possessing a good amount of strenght and having a great recovery. She only lacks out a couple of things in comparison to Mewtwo, such as range. But Mewtwo's range hardly matters when the tip of his tail barely does anything good for him as opposed to the base of his tail.

But just like Ganondorf, Mewtwo's advantaged state is pretty good...though you have to really struggle to end up in those kind of situations. More-so than Ganondorf, probably. Mewtwo's biggest strength is being able to put the opponent in a bad position and his ability to create reset-situations (with proper spacing/timing/reads anyways). When he hurts, he can potentially hurt pretty hard. Thanks to Jab 1 -> Grab, Disable, his godly Fair/Dtilt, and other tools.

But if you stop and think about it...even his greatest strength, as a character, is making huge reads. And this is something a good portion of characters don't have to worry about. Mewtwo is one of the few characters that has to worry even when he is in the ADVANTAGED state. Because just one slip up, and the whole plan could fall apart. And despite him having clear advantages and disadvantages, it doesn't bode well for his competitive viability (at least how things look right now), because he can't capitalize on his strengths nowhere near as well as some other characters can. But plenty of characters can easily capitalize on his weaknesses, especially if they have good frame data and mobility specs.


Ganondorf's and Mewtwo's matchups are similar in that they struggle for their wins, but they can really hurt should their opponents mess up. So, to me, I read their general matchups as "60:40x". Where "x" basically says "if you **** up this number can raise exponentially because they hit like a truck".

But unfortunately for Mewtwo, Ganondorf works much better with this style of play, because he can get away with it much more often. He has the weight to take a beating (and accumulate rage), his long legs are strong throughout the entire hitbox so he doesn't have to worry about range/weaker damage, he has a command grab, OoS options (while not the best they are still better than Mewtwo's), and his rewards are greater because he deals more knockback and damage than Mewtwo. And he gets all of this while having to make far less reads/predictions than Mewtwo does. And the risks he has to take don't hurt him nearly as bad as it hurts Mewtwo. All Mewtwo has is better mobility and a better recovery, but it is simply not enough to help his extremely abysmal defensive options.

So...just as an example (not meant to be a specific number since I am just pulling numbers out of my ***): If Ganondorf's competitive matchups are generally 55:45x/60:40x, Mewtwo's competitive matchups are probably 60:40x/65:35x. They are similar, but Mewtwo definitely feels like a rung below Ganondorf.


So, not sure if he is the absolute worst character in the game. But he does feel on the lower side of the spectrum. And yes, while you always have to take in account the "x" he possesses (just like Ganondorf), he simply isn't as threatening as Ganondorf is otherwise. And that's all there is to it, unfortunately. And I say this as someone who likes playing as Mewtwo.



...all things considered though, he is still LEAGUES above his Melee incarnation. Everyone can potentially be viable in Smash 4, imo. Just some less than others. And Mewtwo is one such character.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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He's really fun in this game, but he's probably one of the safer characters to pick as low/bottom tier.
Very light weight and floaty just isn't viable in this game unless you have controllable puppets.

(:4jigglypuff::4gaw: feel for you)
Hey **** you I'm fat, have a hammer, and fall really fast, but that doesn't mean I'm viable.

Smooth Criminal
 

Nobie

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There's something I've been thinking about regarding the whole talk of Mewtwo's viability, but more in a general sense in terms of how a game should approach DLC characters. Namely, people have expressed the idea that Mewtwo has a fighting chance against most if not all characters, only it probably is fighting an uphill battle in most cases, and I wonder if that's such a bad thing.

Let's assume this is true for a moment, that Mewtwo is mostly 4:6 matchups, maybe a handful of 5:5s thrown in. In a way, is this not what Nintendo should aim for with their DLC characters more or less? LIke imagine if Mewtwo came in with all 6:4 matchups against everyone in the cast, or was "designed to be top tier." It would sure change the competitive landscape, and would potentially cause a great migration towards Mewtwo (as happened with Diddy pre-patch), but I just feel like it wouldn't bode well every time DLC came out (though who knows, maybe Lucas is broken as all get-out).

Another factor is just, do we really think that game designers should actively aim to make the "best" character every time they create someone new? I think trying to actively aim for mid to upper-mid tier is more the way to go. If they end up being more powerful than expected, then that's probably not so bad. If they end up being a little worse, they're still probably going to be solid overall. If you aim to create a character that's top tier, then that character is probably going to be slightly less than fantastic or straight-up absurd.
 

Shaya

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Hey **** you I'm fat, have a hammer, and fall really fast, but that doesn't mean I'm viable.

Smooth Criminal
When has a character ever been viable* for their hammers?
It's probably a lot more to do with being extremely light than floaty, but Samus is floaty~ SO IT'S BOUND TO BE TRUE.

Also Dedede is still one of those characters who gets mixed opinions on viability. because Hey **** you being really heavy, having disjoints and falling with style are pretty good things for a character to have.
 

FullMoon

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I kinda wish Mario or Luigi would use the hammers from the RPG games in Smash at some point. Mario's F-Air would be so perfect for a hammer move,.
 

LiteralGrill

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Okay, I'm going to admit to being a tad miffed on having my Swordfighter thoughts completely ignored. I guess everyone just ignore Swordfighter anyways so why discuss? :p

I truly think people are underestimating some of his potential in this game, and not just because of Trella taking 1-1-1-1 average sized Mii Sword and winning events. He's got some really unique tools that may honestly be able to deal with top tiers, and I'd love to actually discuss that with people. There's a shot he could have some real relevance in the meta if he doesn't get ignored.
 

wedl!!

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b-but

if they made :4luigi:'s fair a hammer he wouldn't have the two dolla slices anymore

it'd be the two dolla clobbers
 

Yonder

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I kinda wish Mario or Luigi would use the hammers from the RPG games in Smash at some point. Mario's F-Air would be so perfect for a hammer move,.
Don't get me started on how Luigi should be using electricity...sigh.

But Mewtwo is decent, I think. If he had about Mario's weight, guy would be upper mid no questions. He has no terrible moves of note and a ton of amazing ones [shadow ball, jab 1, up throw, d tilt, u tilt, f tilt, up smash, confusion for mixups, dash attack...all of these moves are above average]

As it stands, a lower mid tier or a really god low tier. Definitely better that Lucina, Charizard, some other low tiers.
 

Makorel

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Also Dedede is still one of those characters who gets mixed opinions on viability. because Hey **** you being really heavy, having disjoints and falling with style are pretty good things for a character to have.
I see people rate Dedede pretty low but I don't know why when, like you said, he's heavy, has good recovery and large disjoints. His non-disjointed moves seem pretty fast too.

I kinda wish Mario or Luigi would use the hammers from the RPG games in Smash at some point. Mario's F-Air would be so perfect for a hammer move,.
I like to pretend the Ice Climbers are the Mario Bros. They got the hammers and the Bros. moves going for them. All that's left is for them to actually be in the freaking game.
 

Smog Frog

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its probably because :4dedede: movement and neutral is on par with :4ganondorf: but doesnt have quite the power to make him scary.(fun fact: they have similar disjoints!)
 

Mr. Johan

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I kinda wish Mario or Luigi would use the hammers from the RPG games in Smash at some point. Mario's F-Air would be so perfect for a hammer move,.
Nah, save the hammer for the eventual Paper Mario DLC for his Forward Smash, complete with the "beep-beep-beep-BEEP" timed hit sound for the charge-up phase. =P




When Sakurai and co. are making these DLC characters, they're doing so in mind of the entire game, not just competitive rulesets. What doesn't work for Mewtwo in competitive environment may work well for Stamina Mode FFAs on Flat Zone X with Superspciy Curry special mode activated, for example.
 

Ikes

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FWIW I think Mewtwo beats Link. Unlike the other swordsmen Link relies on projectiles a lot, so reflectors put a kink in his major plan. Link's disjoints are also weaker from the sides in air-to-air, since bair and nair have no disjoint and fair's is lesser than Mewtwo's bair. Link would only air approach from vertical directions but since Link doesn't fly well, horizontal air approaches happen more often. On the ground Mewtwo's dtilt and Shadow Ball ensures Link's disjoints don't own the road. So, on-stage, I think the MU is evenish, but if the match gets sloppy Link of course pulls ahead. It's the off-stage game that's the dealbreaker. Mewtwo gimps Link easily, Link can't reply in kind. And Link's best anti-gimping tactic of tossing a boomerang at the ledge he's chasing works against him as well, since Mewtwo can reflect it en-route, giving Link 2 problems instead of one. I don't even see Link's customs improving the MU much if any. Mewtwo can't mess up obviously, but MU ratios presume no appreciable mistakes happen.

Not that having a winning MU against a Hyrule-tier hero means much... not even keeping you out of Hyrule tier yourself.

I can see Toon Link having similar issues, though with Mewtwo having a bit more leeway in messing up. But Toon Link's mobility make messing up a bit more likely, so that's a wash.

On the flip side, I can't see Marth having any problems with Mewtwo. Nothing to reflect, Disable has less range than the sword, and tipper even kills heavies at ridiculous percents.
toon links mobility and the frequency at which he can toss out projectiles I think gives him the advantage against mewtwo, sure mewtwo can reflect but he cant just exclusively reflect, and Toon link can keep a good distance while pestering mewtwo with projectiles, something Link would find it much more difficult to do since he's got marginally worse projectiles and worse mobility.

though that's just my opinion
 

Antonykun

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Okay, I'm going to admit to being a tad miffed on having my Swordfighter thoughts completely ignored. I guess everyone just ignore Swordfighter anyways so why discuss? :p

I truly think people are underestimating some of his potential in this game, and not just because of Trella taking 1-1-1-1 average sized Mii Sword and winning events. He's got some really unique tools that may honestly be able to deal with top tiers, and I'd love to actually discuss that with people. There's a shot he could have some real relevance in the meta if he doesn't get ignored.
in my defense I just got my internet back. One Swordfighter vs Rosalina. What does Swordfighter do once he gets rid of Luma though?
I think many people still see Swordfighter as he Worst Character in Smash 4 and have a hard time thinking of the things that make him actually a threat. I mean at least here people are shedding some of that belief that he has no competitive future
 

mimgrim

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b-but

if they made :4luigi:'s fair a hammer he wouldn't have the two dolla slices anymore

it'd be the two dolla clobbers
Two dolla clobbas*

Definitely better that Lucina, Charizard, some other low tiers.
Your 2 examples used are rather bad.

Lucina is in the middle somewhere a bit under Marth. Thinking otherwise is just plain silly.

I still think that Zard is perhaps the most underrated character in the game. Good dash/run with low endlag making something like jab out of run more viable, Nair, multiple jumps, Nair, huge grab, Nair, huge grab paired with good throws, Nair, auto-cancels on Fair and Nair, Nair, a good get the hell off me move (that gets better with customs), Nair, a super dangerous long range punish (which becomes a absurdly good neutral tool with customs), a useful Fire Breath, Nair, a scary, long, aerial, Nair, can gimp pretty good, Nair, a pretty damn good jab, and did I mention Nair? Thanks to his multiple jumps and Rock Smash/Rock Hurl he doesn't have to bad of a disadvantage stage and his advantageous state is pretty good. His tools to get into advantage state may not be the best but are def workable, he's on the slow side aside from his run animation (but he's also a heavy), and he isn't quite as threatening as some of the other heavies but is still scary in his own right. He has the weaknesses that every heavy has while also having some things the heavies wished they had and not being quite as good in certain areas as the other heavies (but that doesn't mean he is bad in those same areas).

Why is this character bad again?
 

Shaya

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I kinda wish Mario or Luigi would use the hammers from the RPG games in Smash at some point. Mario's F-Air would be so perfect for a hammer move,.
It's what I'd hope/imagine Paper Mario would have, if he came to exist.

Anyway time for an odd type of tier list 3-2-1-go.

Top Tier
:4diddy::4fox::4mario::4pikachu::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4zss:

High Niche
:4falcon::4luigi::4ness::4olimar::4villagerf::4wario2:
High Tier
:4darkpit::4duckhunt::4greninja::4megaman::4metaknight::4pit::4rob::4yoshi:

Middle "Niche" / Confusing Viability
:4charizard::4dk::4kirby::4littlemac::4pacman::4peach::4wiifit:
Middle Tier
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4dedede::4myfriends::4link::4lucina::4marth::4shulk:

Low "Niche"
:4drmario::4falco::4ganondorf::4gaw::4lucario::4robinf::4zelda:
Low Tier
:4jigglypuff::4mewtwo::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4palutena::4samus::4tlink:

***** someone called me, delaying this* *customs off* *no ordering*
I recently thought of things in such a way: we have this overall understanding of character power levels thus far, the obvious strong ones blazing ahead, weaker characters taking a bit more time to identify themselves but very few are dysfunctional, the bounds on character's abilities in this game are a lot more centred then they've ever been, so distinctive [dis]advantages are pretty hard to point out in a majority of match ups. My naming conventions here are probably way off, but I hope the idea I'm conveying makes sense. Rather than a tier list per se I'm categorising characters by this idea of power levels / average abilities against the cast while the "niche" are those with individual strengths which allow them to succeed either in specific match ups (Falco, Olimar), or are overloaded in their capabilities but have comparable weakness (Little Mac). Some of them may go up, some of them may go down, player upsets in the future may be attested to weird counterpicks.
Luigi and Falcon may be top 5 overall, if I was asked to order 1-52 they'd be comparatively higher. However, we agree they have weaknesses, but at most levels of play we see them dominating really noticeably with their strengths. My bias towards ZSS may be too obvious and she could fit in the category with the same idea (being higher in a 1-52 list) but dealing with lelgrab seems to be feasible and her kit otherwise is practically all encompassing; out of shield options are far from her weakness (actually she's bat **** insane) but dealing with shields is another story.

To cover uncommon choices (feel free to ask):
:4kirby:Kirby is evil incarnate. The large amount of buffs have definitely forced him out of completely low tier. Much like Meta Knight, he now plays like a Brawl character and can get away with it against the majority of the cast. Muchos frustration.
:4wiremac:Little Mac can bout with every character in the cast almost, but he can also lose the game instantly at any time. He is much too sporadic and full of power spikes to really ever ascertain [match ups] properly in my opinion, an extremely tight reaction based game should be almost impossible for 90% of the cast to deal with. Despite common belief, he is a master of the off the ground game and can beat anything with a Shoryuken. Fallen off heavily in recent times, high level players still swear by him as uncanny strong, I believe them. Also anyone been jolt haymakered recently? What the flying ****, Mac is really hard to deal with on wifi again :<
:4wiifitm:Wii Fit Trainer has a really good time doing what they want to do when the opposing character let's them. For characters which can't safely play mid range against them or heavily capitalise on them in the air, I doubt you have almost any chance against WiiFit at all. Focusing around the ledge they are nearly untouchable, by up until yesterday I thought, the entirety of the cast (Pit can actually take risk against wiifit and still recover, probably the only character in the cast who can [better arrows help over Pittoo]). Their dodges are silly, they force you to approach due to two charge moves (that are really good used successfully) that can be dodged out of instantly. Although apparently all "realistic hitboxes" I think most characters without disjoints struggle to not trade with them. Typical game play that consists of cross overs or mixing up shield hitting positions just somehow always gets hit by ftilt; so by that fact alone they're anti-meta~

:4lucario: Lucario kinda sucks. But has the single most broken mechanic in smash history attached, so it's workable. If this character was popular/viable [again], people would likely quit the game. His unique abilities can still be taken and used to feasibly combat and beat every character in the cast, but it's a tightrope balance with rubber crocodile infested electrified waters below with falchion teeth and spikes protruding all over. One of the few characters towards the lower end I think you could main and get results with, but you shouldn't.

:4tlink: Toon Link struggles to succeed with the numbers they currently have. But at the same time they have a lot of tools to work with, in the future advancing (heck Zan is pretty impressive) a lot higher in viability than I currently expect wouldn't surprise me. Likely has a few alright match ups out there but requires way too much work to compete at top level with.

:4ganondorf: GANON IS MID TIER GUYS. Heavies are hard to rate in general (D3, Bowser, DK, Zard, etc), Ganondorf tips up and down in opinion constantly for me. Almost any individual move he has given to another character could break them. His strengths are so blatant that he can murder people, and there aren't that many murderers in this game ( ZSS, Falcon and prepatch diddy are, IMO). The mobility issue is really big and noticeable, and over time these seem to be easier to exploit. However the requirements are there for victory, you only need two to three reads per stock and not enough characters are nullifying your existence before you have the opportunity for them (like what could happen to Mac). I hope the ganon mains really start to show themselves, if they were capable of cool things/upsets in Brawl, I really think bigger things can happen here.
 
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Radical Larry

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Top Tier: :4sheik::rosalina::4mario::4luigi::4falcon::4diddy::4fox::4sonic::4zss::4peach::4ness::4myfriends::4pikachu:
Middle-High Tier: :4wario::4villager::4yoshi::4ganondorf::4dk::4megaman::4olimar::4darkpit::4pit::4rob::4pacman::4link::4tlink::4miibrawl::4bowser::4charizard::4duckhunt:
Middle-Low Tier: :4jigglypuff::4greninja::4lucario::4metaknight::4shulk::4bowserjr::4miigun::4zelda::4robinm::4wiifit::4littlemac::4marth::4lucina:
Low Tier::4dedede::4mewtwo::4kirby::4gaw::4palutena::4falco::4drmario::4samus:

This is no particular order, but the rows themselves are the order in which the characters will be put in.

:4ganondorf:This guy might raise red flags when it comes to this, but let me justify him first. Ganondorf is a walking powerhouse, simply put. He's got the capabilities to withstand opponents' attacks to an astronomical level, he has the most powerful attacks in the game (with two of them being potential instant KOs; Warlock Punch and Flame Choke), and he has crazy combos and set ups, even from his throws. He has bad mobility and a hittable recovery, but not a predictable one; his recovery is actually more unpredictable and far better than one might think; he can snap on opponents very early with his recovery move, Dark Dive, and gain some extra vertical distance to add onto the distance he released. Flame Choke is also one move most characters don't want to challenge off the edge of the stage, in fear of actually being grabbed on their last stock.

Ganondorf also has one of the most reliable edge-guarding games within the game, rivaled by characters such as Pikachu and Sheik. His meteor attack is absolutely absurd, and his alternate meteor, Wizard's Foot, is also just as crazy, if not crazier and more dangerous than his normal D-Air. Talking about Wizard's Foot, Ganondorf is a character you do not want to send with his back facing away from you, and him being sent at any horizontal angle high; if that happens, retaliation may be swift and losses could be a stock, because if he has an angle while being sent up against U-Air attacks, likely chances are he will challenge with a mix-up on Wizard's Foot. If he DI's just a little bit, it could mean the difference between losing a stock or winning, and you don't want to chance it. And if you do chance it with a recovery move, and whiff it even the slightest, he can and probably will Warlock Punch in retaliation; that sucker is an instant KO in the air.

:4jigglypuff:Actually a very, very solid character. Jiggs is a character who requires elegance with the controls. You also have to develop her as a more reliable rush in character than a defensive character; that is what Jiggs is made for; rushing in, not defense. Jiggs has a solid ground game and astonishing air game, with one of the better edge-guarding games in the game as well; she has a lot of potential within the game, and seems to be underrated as a character, if not as a whole. Her light weight and floaty nature might be a turnoff to people for this character, but rest assured that her aerial prowess compensates for her floaty nature; she has a very powerful B-Air and her F-Air can create a literal wall of pain, just like in Melee. Her Pound and U-Air combo are also a really reliable combo to do, but while not necessary at the same time.

As for her ground game, she actually has a good ground game; while yes, her running speed is the worst in the game, her ground attacks are far from that standpoint. Her Double Slap (Jab) attack can actually lead into Pound or even trap opponents within it for an F-Air, N-Air, F-Tilt, F-Smash or Dash if you're really cheeky. Her F-Tilt is good for getting a bit of distance on your opponents and set up for a different attack, while her Dash attack is good for comboing into itself (trust me, it can be done). If you want to get your opponent away from you quickly, it's advised to use D-Smash, not F-Smash, because D-Smash may lead them under the stage, a place where they do not want to even dare be at thanks to Jigglypuff's B-Air and F-Air. Lastly, while it is not mandatory, using Rest after Sing will guarantee a KO at some damages, but I digress.
 

Mr. Johan

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All these negative/low impressions of Robin make me hopeful that patch 1.0.8 rolls along with some needed buffs.

Sometimes I wonder if Robin was the first character they completed, then thought "Oh wait, this is Smash, who gives a **** about balance." and went full steam ahead with the other 50 characters. :<
 

Ikes

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It's what I'd hope/imagine Paper Mario would have, if he came to exist.

Anyway time for an odd type of tier list 3-2-1-go.

Top Tier
:4diddy::4fox::4mario::4pikachu::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic::4zss:

High Niche
:4falcon::4luigi::4ness::4olimar::4villagerf::4wario2:
High Tier
:4darkpit::4duckhunt::4greninja::4megaman::4metaknight::4pit::4rob::4yoshi:

Middle "Niche" / Confusing Viability
:4charizard::4dk::4kirby::4littlemac::4pacman::4peach::4wiifit:
Middle Tier
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4dedede::4myfriends::4link::4lucina::4marth::4shulk:

Low "Niche"
:4drmario::4falco::4ganondorf::4gaw::4lucario::4robinf::4zelda:
Low Tier
:4jigglypuff::4mewtwo::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword::4palutena::4samus::4tlink:

***** someone called me, delaying this* *customs off* *no ordering*
I recently thought of things in such a way: we have this overall understanding of character power levels thus far, the obvious strong ones blazing ahead, weaker characters taking a bit more time to identify themselves but very few are dysfunctional, the bounds on character's abilities in this game are a lot more centred then they've ever been, so distinctive [dis]advantages are pretty hard to point out in a majority of match ups. My naming conventions here are probably way off, but I hope the idea I'm conveying makes sense. Rather than a tier list per se I'm categorising characters by this idea of power levels / average abilities against the cast while the "niche" are those with individual strengths which allow them to succeed either in specific match ups (Falco, Olimar), or are overloaded in their capabilities but have comparable weakness (Little Mac). Some of them may go up, some of them may go down, player upsets in the future may be attested to weird counterpicks.
Luigi and Falcon may be top 5 overall, if I was asked to order 1-52 they'd be comparatively higher. However, we agree they have weaknesses, but at most levels of play we see them dominating really noticeably with their strengths. My bias towards ZSS may be too obvious and she could fit in the category with the same idea (being higher in a 1-52 list) but dealing with lelgrab seems to be feasible and her kit otherwise is practically all encompassing; out of shield options are far from her weakness (actually she's bat **** insane) but dealing with shields is another story.

To cover uncommon choices (feel free to ask):
:4kirby:Kirby is evil incarnate. The large amount of buffs have definitely forced him out of completely low tier. Much like Meta Knight, he now plays like a Brawl character and can get away with it against the majority of the cast. Muchos frustration.
:4wiremac:Little Mac can bout with every character in the cast almost, but he can also lose the game instantly at any time. He is much too sporadic and full of power spikes to really ever ascertain [match ups] properly in my opinion, an extremely tight reaction based game should be almost impossible for 90% of the cast to deal with. Despite common belief, he is a master of the off the ground game and can beat anything with a Shoryuken. Fallen off heavily in recent times, high level players still swear by him as uncanny strong, I believe them. Also anyone been jolt haymakered recently? What the flying ****, Mac is really hard to deal with on wifi again :<
:4wiifitm:Wii Fit Trainer has a really good time doing what they want to do when the opposing character let's them. For characters which can't safely play mid range against them or heavily capitalise on them in the air, I doubt you have almost any chance against WiiFit at all. Focusing around the ledge they are nearly untouchable, by up until yesterday I thought, the entirety of the cast (Pit can actually take risk against wiifit and still recover, probably the only character in the cast who can [better arrows help over Pittoo]). Their dodges are silly, they force you to approach due to two charge moves (that are really good used successfully) that can be dodged out of instantly. Although apparently all "realistic hitboxes" I think most characters without disjoints struggle to not trade with them. Typical game play that consists of cross overs or mixing up shield hitting positions just somehow always gets hit by ftilt; so by that fact alone they're anti-meta~

:4lucario: Lucario kinda sucks. But has the single most broken mechanic in smash history attached, so it's workable. If this character was popular/viable [again], people would likely quit the game. His unique abilities can still be taken and used to feasibly combat and beat every character in the cast, but it's a tightrope balance with rubber crocodile infested electrified waters below with falchion teeth and spikes protruding all over. One of the few characters towards the lower end I think you could main and get results with, but you shouldn't.

:4tlink: Toon Link struggles to succeed with the numbers they currently have. But at the same time they have a lot of tools to work with, in the future advancing (heck Zan is pretty impressive) a lot higher in viability than I currently expect wouldn't surprise me. Likely has a few alright match ups out there but requires way too much work to compete at top level with.

:4ganondorf: GANON IS MID TIER GUYS. Heavies are hard to rate in general (D3, Bowser, DK, Zard, etc), Ganondorf tips up and down in opinion constantly for me. Almost any individual move he has given to another character could break them. His strengths are so blatant that he can murder people, and there aren't that many murderers in this game ( ZSS, Falcon and prepatch diddy are, IMO). The mobility issue is really big and noticeable, and over time these seem to be easier to exploit. However the requirements are there for victory, you only need two to three reads per stock and not enough characters are nullifying your existence before you have the opportunity for them (like what could happen to Mac). I hope the ganon mains really start to show themselves, if they were capable of cool things/upsets in Brawl, I really think bigger things can happen here.
considering mario above luigi is criminal

and toon link is easily better than regular link
 
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Shaya

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All these negative/low impressions of Robin make me hopeful that patch 1.0.8 rolls along with some needed buffs.

Sometimes I wonder if Robin was the first character they completed, then thought "Oh wait, this is Smash, who gives a **** about balance." and went full steam ahead with the other 50 characters. :<
I think they have a lot of good abilities, it's just very hard if the opposing character has tools to compete with robin's zoning. In contrast, Nairo thinks they're pretty good and advocates "going in", considering the damage output and kill power it's probably workable. But still, very hard to achieve success with. Untapped potential, quality of life buffs that are hard to quantify, and the large range of high level players that liked them have moved on are fair reasons for underrating them.

considering mario above luigi is criminal

and toon link is easily better than regular link
If you asked me for my top 10 in order, I'd have Luigi pretty high mind you. He is definitely one of if not the scariest thing in the metagame right now, with a pretty low skill floor for success with outstanding rewards. He likely has the most polarizing match ups in the game. Just like everyone had a pocket diddy earlier on, so so so so so many high/top level players have a pocket Luigi now, and they never do poorly. Heck Anti beat Boss in Luigi dittos at a tournament yesterday I believe. It's scary to think about what Luigi can and will do to this game in the mid to long term.

Also Link is easily better than toon link.
 
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Makorel

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considering mario above luigi is criminal
The list is ordered alphabetically.

@ Shaya Shaya These niche tiers are a bit confusing. A character like Mac or Ganondorf being hard to quantify I can understand, but are you saying that Captain Falcon and Luigi are also hard to quantify but more consistent and thus higher tier?
 

Ulevo

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@ Shaya Shaya Lucario is not bad. People have this misunderstanding that somehow he is bad unless he has aura charged, and this is not true. His neutral game is poor against certain characters but he has a really solid advantaged state and an above average combo game. His edge guards are also solid. On top of this he has kill confirms in to Force Palm. I do not think he has the potential to be anything greater than low high tier and he has bad match ups, but the sooner players analyze him without the aura mechanic the sooner he'll be fairly perceived. He is likely top of the mid tier list.

Top Tier: :4sheik::rosalina::4mario::4luigi::4falcon::4diddy::4fox::4sonic::4zss::4peach::4ness::4myfriends::4pikachu:
Middle-High Tier: :4wario::4villager::4yoshi::4ganondorf::4dk::4megaman::4olimar::4darkpit::4pit::4rob::4pacman::4link::4tlink::4miibrawl::4bowser::4charizard::4duckhunt:
Middle-Low Tier: :4jigglypuff::4greninja::4lucario::4metaknight::4shulk::4bowserjr::4miigun::4zelda::4robinm::4wiifit::4littlemac::4marth::4lucina:
Low Tier::4dedede::4mewtwo::4kirby::4gaw::4palutena::4falco::4drmario::4samus:
This list is pretty terrible.
 

Mr. Johan

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Lucarios should use wavebounce Aura Sphere charges more. The chargeup hitboxes chain into Usmash and Bair cleanly, and is probably the easiest non-throw kill setup in this game.

Aura Sphere charge facing away from the ledge also produces the most one sided "Heads I win, Tails you lose" setup for recovering foes that even Wario's Bite can't acclaim to. Do you try and contest the charge and lose because lol aura and get sucked into Bair or Usmash, or do you ledge roll or jump over, with a fully charged Aura Sphere ready to greet you when you get up?
 
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Diddy Kong

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G&W is pretty good imo.

:059:
In doubles, yes. But damn I wish they never nerfed him so badly from Brawl, where he was a steady secondary for me. :urg:

Also, from reading all the comments about Mewtwo am now more than ever convinced that Mewtwo is a strict low tier. Probably ranking around the same as he did in Melee in the end.
 
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Diddy Kong

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What bothers me most about :4gaw: is that his KO power got so hugely nerfed from Brawl. I really liked how he was balanced in Brawl, being an extremely light weight character but with the power close to the heavy weights. Especially on DAT U SMASH, DAT SEXY, SEXY U SMASH... And now it's just ehhh. B Air being nerfed also sucks... Customs help him a little, and Bucket has been buffed, but that make him more of a niché character than anything. He's not the powerhouse he used to be, and that's what made me put the character down for myself...
 

meleebrawler

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Mewtwo has a disadvantage against most characters in the game. Especially against aggro characters. Against an aggro character, he mostly loses outright. But against a normal character, he is usually going to have a slight disadvantage.

Sure, his incredibly low weight and large size are contributing factors, but they are not his biggest problems in concerns with competitive viability. Mewtwo's largest weaknesses are the longish startup lag on most of his attacks, how he can't use his tail as safely as sword-wielders, and how his hitboxes either have the "Meta Knight effect" (don't hit when they look like they should) or you have to be super-precise with them in order to send opponents where you want them to go.

Range is supposed to be one of Mewtwo's key strengths, but honestly, it's not nearly as good as it could be. Because of his tipper tail hits, and how his tail extends his hurtbox. Hitting with the tip of the tail usually always sends the opponent at unfavorable trajectories and does less damage. So not only does this make Mewtwo's damage output suffer, but it also severely cripples his rewards unless you are right in the opponent's face. And this is completely counter-intuitive to his playstyle. Because that is exactly where you don't want to be with him either. Due to his slower frame data, light weight but large body size (combos/juggles against you), and how Mewtwo doesn't really have any amazing OoS options to help save in in that situation.


All of the above problems combined creates Mewtwo's biggest flaw: He has to be exceptionally precise and take huge risks to get any significant rewards against opponents. And this amount of technicality rivals other characters such as Peach. The only difference is that Mewtwo doesn't come with the same strengths that those other characters possess. Peach has OoS options, her floating mechanic, faster frame data, and is even heavier than Mewtwo while STILL possessing a good amount of strenght and having a great recovery. She only lacks out a couple of things in comparison to Mewtwo, such as range. But Mewtwo's range hardly matters when the tip of his tail barely does anything good for him as opposed to the base of his tail.

But just like Ganondorf, Mewtwo's advantaged state is pretty good...though you have to really struggle to end up in those kind of situations. More-so than Ganondorf, probably. Mewtwo's biggest strength is being able to put the opponent in a bad position and his ability to create reset-situations (with proper spacing/timing/reads anyways). When he hurts, he can potentially hurt pretty hard. Thanks to Jab 1 -> Grab, Disable, his godly Fair/Dtilt, and other tools.

But if you stop and think about it...even his greatest strength, as a character, is making huge reads. And this is something a good portion of characters don't have to worry about. Mewtwo is one of the few characters that has to worry even when he is in the ADVANTAGED state. Because just one slip up, and the whole plan could fall apart. And despite him having clear advantages and disadvantages, it doesn't bode well for his competitive viability (at least how things look right now), because he can't capitalize on his strengths nowhere near as well as some other characters can. But plenty of characters can easily capitalize on his weaknesses, especially if they have good frame data and mobility specs.


Ganondorf's and Mewtwo's matchups are similar in that they struggle for their wins, but they can really hurt should their opponents mess up. So, to me, I read their general matchups as "60:40x". Where "x" basically says "if you **** up this number can raise exponentially because they hit like a truck".

But unfortunately for Mewtwo, Ganondorf works much better with this style of play, because he can get away with it much more often. He has the weight to take a beating (and accumulate rage), his long legs are strong throughout the entire hitbox so he doesn't have to worry about range/weaker damage, he has a command grab, OoS options (while not the best they are still better than Mewtwo's), and his rewards are greater because he deals more knockback and damage than Mewtwo. And he gets all of this while having to make far less reads/predictions than Mewtwo does. And the risks he has to take don't hurt him nearly as bad as it hurts Mewtwo. All Mewtwo has is better mobility and a better recovery, but it is simply not enough to help his extremely abysmal defensive options.

So...just as an example (not meant to be a specific number since I am just pulling numbers out of my ***): If Ganondorf's competitive matchups are generally 55:45x/60:40x, Mewtwo's competitive matchups are probably 60:40x/65:35x. They are similar, but Mewtwo definitely feels like a rung below Ganondorf.


So, not sure if he is the absolute worst character in the game. But he does feel on the lower side of the spectrum. And yes, while you always have to take in account the "x" he possesses (just like Ganondorf), he simply isn't as threatening as Ganondorf is otherwise. And that's all there is to it, unfortunately. And I say this as someone who likes playing as Mewtwo.



...all things considered though, he is still LEAGUES above his Melee incarnation. Everyone can potentially be viable in Smash 4, imo. Just some less than others. And Mewtwo is one such character.
There is one thing you have to consider when comparing Mewtwo's and Ganon's punish and read games; namely, that Ganon
is completely and utterly specialized in doing so. He has to get in close to play his game but he has next to the worse
mobility in the game (only Robin is worse due to lack of burst options) nor does he have anything that forces opponents
to come to him. Nearly all of his options for getting in can be punished. Given all that Ganon has to deal with in order
to start working, he NEEDS to be able to soak up some mistakes, and it's only fair that he gets more reward on average.
Still, if he had anything close to Mewtwo's weight he'd undoubtedly be considered worse.

Mewtwo, on the other hand, does not strictly have to get in to do work. Yes it's where he gets his biggest payoffs,
but unlike Ganon he does not always have to fight to get in. Shadow balls are good projectiles whether they're charged
or not, and their low endlag means that he has an almost Luigi-like ability to follow them and capitalize. Only their slowish
startup prevents them from being truly spammable. He can say no to projectile zoning with a powerful projectile of his own
and a reflector. It really can't be stressed enough: if Mewtwo can't get in safely, he almost always has shadow balls to fall
back on. Only fast characters take this advantage away. He can get guaranteed kills off of a grab which is something even the mighty Ganon can't do. His edgeguarding is only somewhat less potent than Ganon's, but his recovery allows him
to go far deeper.

tl;dr: Mewtwo may not have the raw power or punish ability of Ganon up close, but unlike him he's not entirely
reliant on being there, since he has more varied ways of getting kills and has more answers to projectiles than just defending.
What bothers me most about :4gaw: is that his KO power got so hugely nerfed from Brawl. I really liked how he was balanced in Brawl, being an extremely light weight character but with the power close to the heavy weights. Especially on DAT U SMASH, DAT SEXY, SEXY U SMASH... And now it's just ehhh. B Air being nerfed also sucks... Customs help him a little, and Bucket has been buffed, but that make him more of a niché character than anything. He's not the powerhouse he used to be, and that's what made me put the character down for myself...
Strictly speaking, his KO power isn't really that far off from Brawl, mainly dsmash sourspot, fair and usmash (but it got invincibilty to give it a niche) got nerfs, what makes KOing difficult for G&W cmpared to Brawl is that his former
main tools for doing so got either less spammable or harder to land.

(Also Brawl Usmash was kind of useless in a world where airdodging into the ground is totally safe).
 
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LiteralGrill

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Hey @ Radical Larry Radical Larry your list doesn't even have Mii Swordfighter @_@

That's it, gonna get the capture card out and start showing off some of the lab work with him, gotta change people's minds on the character. Expect tons of videos incoming.
 

Thinkaman

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The defining similarity to me, between Ganondorf and Mewtwo, is F-tier point-blank neutrals and similarly limited OoS options. The rest of their strengths and playstyle revolve heavily around this core weakness.
 

Browny

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I regret coming into this thread immediately, the level of theorycraft is off the charts. I'm getting flashbacks of the BBR character review threads and how they treated Sonic...
:4mewtwo:gets wrecked by :4peach: basically because of dtilt. 60:40 :4peach: advantage
 

Smog Frog

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The defining similarity to me, between Ganondorf and Mewtwo, is F-tier point-blank neutrals and similarly limited OoS options. The rest of their strengths and playstyle revolve heavily around this core weakness.
at least :4mewtwo: has something quicker than frame 8(grumble grumble)
 

|RK|

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I regret coming into this thread immediately, the level of theorycraft is off the charts. I'm getting flashbacks of the BBR character review threads and how they treated Sonic...

Seriously. There's nothing but theory surrounding Mewtwo (and Swordfighter, tbh) considering no one plays them. Tier placements and matchup numbers are absurd.
 
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