Character Competitive Impressions

[Terios the Hedgehog]

...

Who?

Glad I'm not the only one to think this.

 

[Unknownkid]

DOUBLE TIEBREAKER at XANADU! That was hype!

 

[Blobface]

I can't find this Angel Cortez thing anywhere. Anyone got a link?

@Trifroze I've noticed there seems to be a general "hitstun cap" on all moves too, but at insanely high knockback, hitstun lasts for a very long time too, so I'm not sure how it works. Do you think hitstun just doesn't scale linearly?

 

[Ffamran]

This Up B war at Xanadu. Someone's going to go, "My B", at the end of this. Seriously though, Kong Cyclone can be a character of its own...

 

[Shaya]

I asked not to continue the topic.

 

[Ffamran]

So... is Mr. Game & Watch effectively screwed against DK with customs? I can't see what Mr. G&W can do nor could Coney and TKBreezy. Falco might be screwed as well if people already think Falco loses to DK on defaults. So... GimR's out of options for practiced counterpicks?

Edit: First time seeing Dunnobro's usage of Zig-Zag Shot (Can) and it's just wicked what Duck Hunt can do with it.

 

[Shaya]

My experience with custom falco against any version of DK is pretty positive. Blaster has a windbox in itself that is pretty awkward for DK to get around, it can even push his up-b to his death, and as the hitbox for it is multihit and lasts a while it's usually punishing him consistently for using it.
To top it off void reflector significantly outranging him, transcended priority and throwing him into the air vertically for more blaster shenanigans or juggling.

G&W can not do much. He can crouch [cancel] it and with perfect timing Up Smash in some conditions. Or with similar "luck" first hit up air him in the middle of it.

 

[DairunCates]

I asked not to continue the topic.

Oops. Legitimately missed the post on that. My apologies.

So... is Mr. Game & Watch effectively screwed against DK with customs? I can't see what Mr. G&W can do nor could Coney and TKBreezy. Falco might be screwed as well if people already think Falco loses to DK on defaults. So... GimR's out of options for practiced counterpicks?

Does G&W not have the ability to slip out of DK's custom Up+B like most characters? Although, I suppose even if he can, he doesn't have many follow-ups. Either way, the only thing I can think of is that G&W might be able to use his aerial superiority to his advantage, but you have to force DK off-stage first or bait him into following you. The sausages are too slow to punish DK's lack of projectiles (not counting that charge punch).

 

[Mario766]

I think GimR isn't very used to dealing with custom DK, but that looked pretty horrible. He CPed to Halberd for no real reason and couldn't punish Kong Cyclone at all. MAYBE using back air he could punish the frames without super armor. I don't think GimR knew anything about it honestly.

 

[DairunCates]

I think GimR isn't very used to dealing with custom DK, but that looked pretty horrible. He CPed to Halberd for no real reason and couldn't punish Kong Cyclone at all. MAYBE using back air he could punish the frames without super armor. I don't think GimR knew anything about it honestly.

Well, seeing DK in top brackets is honestly new for a lot of people. It's not a match-up a lot of people expected to have to prepare for. As strong as DK's Up+B is, I think we'll see the numbers for him die back down a bit in a couple of months.

That said. Can't say I've seen too much on that specific DHD Down+B custom with the hard to kill gunman that shoots super slow. Seems like a bit of a weird and situaitonal custom.

 

[Ffamran]

I was going to ask the other Falco players if they messed with Explosive Blaster against Kong Cyclone. This would also extend to ZSS's Electromagnetic Net and Sheik's Burst Grenade because of the vacuum.

Thing is that with the match, I don't think GimR knew much to do and I think TKBreezy pointed out that GimR had his shield break several times against Average Joe in friendlies. I don't remember seeing any air dodges through Kong Cyclone. When Coney and TKBreezy told him to use Falco, he was hesitant and I'd be too. I'd stick with my main during unfamiliar times like that since at least I know what my main can do more than picking a secondary I might not have put equal or enough time. I could see Mr. Game & Watch maybe using Fire or whatever Fire custom to get out, but I can't see much else he could do, but then again, I don't play Mr. G&W. An Up Smash would take a good read, but at the same time, Average Joe and people are going to wise up if they see that's the only thing Mr. G&W can do against Kong Cyclone. Maybe he can cheese out DK with 9 Judges.

 

[Smog Frog]

dunnobro 2-0ing seagull w/ . what you got to say now, @ Sinister Slush ?

 

[thehard]

Ho my god~ @DunnoBro

 

[DairunCates]

dunnobro 2-0ing seagull w/ . what you got to say now, @ Sinister Slush ?

Yeah. That was crazy. Are we going to see a Vanilla Mario vs. Vanilla Yoshi in a customs tourney? What is this? Smash 64?

 

[Shaya]

Joe did say that Yoshi beats Sonic, at least slightly.

 

[19_]

THIS ENTIRE XANADU:

Like this is best xanadu I have ever watched. Hilarity and hype its too much.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I don't actively search for xanadu's. What I said previously when Raptor and seagull mentioned him timing out seagull/seagull losing to him on delfino from a timeout puts me in the same state of mind.

He doesn't know the MU, for a sonic's point of view. Espy for example would say seagull is bad.

 

[Shaya]

I hear sonic has no answers to a Yoshi attempting to time him out, confirm/deny? @Espy Rose

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's true in a way if we're careful enough, otherwise sonic's speed can get in his face if we attempt any laggy moves LIKE EGGTOSS.
Watching Seagull vs Dunnobro now, it's a 0-1 in seagull favor. y did people say 2-0?

0-2
So guessing people meant he brings it back in like Loser's finals or something? Gross, cause xanadu does best of 3 for their finals.

Yuck. Ick. Bleh. Pleh. Help.

 

[Shaya]

Dunnobro 2-0'd seagull with yoshi.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dunnobro 2-0'd seagull with yoshi.

I'm aware, I just finished watching the set a couple minutes ago. >best of 3

Seagull playing not great and as much as I hate to say it, Dunnobro wasn't too. Despite Seagull punishing him accordingly by remembering he has a shield button whenever he used Dair or nair for an approach for some reason he got caught offguard by fair game 1 on their second set. Out of the 4 games I just watched, the only thing that impressed me about DB's play was the double Bair gimp he got on seagull.

Despite 2-0 he did that set, it still was incredibly close and either person could've won. First set not-so-much, was a stomp.

That hitstun is hilariously good despite the move itself being bad and being unreliable. Also is their stream like slow or something? Watching the sets felt like it was on 2/3 speed.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, seeing DK in top brackets is honestly new for a lot of people. It's not a match-up a lot of people expected to have to prepare for. As strong as DK's Up+B is, I think we'll see the numbers for him die back down a bit in a couple of months.

That said. Can't say I've seen too much on that specific DHD Down+B custom with the hard to kill gunman that shoots super slow. Seems like a bit of a weird and situaitonal custom.

Eh, maybe a month or two ago, but Kong Cyclone's been known about for a while now. Surely airbender DK can't be that much of a surprise anymore?

 

[Firefoxx]

Eh, maybe a month or two ago, but Kong Cyclone's been known about for a while now. Surely airbender DK can't be that much of a surprise anymore?

I feel like if Average Joe is in your region, you should have a pretty good handle on the DK matchup.

Edit: or at least, have seen enough DK first hand to theorycraft it out

 

[Dabuz]

Not sure if this is known, but it's something I noticed today. All dthrows I've tested cap at 41 frames of hitstun, being cancellable with an airdodge, jump or attack on frame 42 at about 40% where it caps. After that though, jumping or attacking out of hitstun becomes increasingly slower until at least 150% (highest I tested). For example at 120% you can airdodge from Falcon's dthrow on 42, jump on 49-51 (heavier characters seem to be able to jump earlier) and attack on 47. The airdodge and attack frames seem to be the same with every dthrow but the jumping frame changes a little bit and for some reason heavies are able to jump earlier than lightweights.

Other moves usually have more hitstun, but they work with similar logic where jumping or attacking out of them is slower and slower the higher you go. Makes sense considering airdodge is the most dangerous option while jumping is the safest, however attacking is somewhere between those. Really makes moves like ZSS' down b too good for escaping setups.

This is also the reason training mode combo counter is broken. It only stops counting combos once you're able to jump or possibly attack out of hitstun even though you can airdodge before that, making it more unrealiable the higher the % is.

EDIT: probably the wrong topic to post this on but it's pretty central

Why wasn't this talked about more? Is the relationship between knockback and hitstun linear or curved? Does damage factor in at all? What were the exact tests done? Ect. Ect.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Joe did say that Yoshi beats Sonic, at least slightly.

He does 55-45.

I'm aware, I just finished watching the set a couple minutes ago. >best of 3

Seagull playing not great and as much as I hate to say it, Dunnobro wasn't too. Despite Seagull punishing him accordingly by remembering he has a shield button whenever he used Dair or nair for an approach for some reason he got caught offguard by fair game 1 on their second set. Out of the 4 games I just watched, the only thing that impressed me about DB's play was the double Bair gimp he got on seagull.

Despite 2-0 he did that set, it still was incredibly close and either person could've won. First set not-so-much, was a stomp.

That hitstun is hilariously good despite the move itself being bad and being unreliable. Also is their stream like slow or something? Watching the sets felt like it was on 2/3 speed.

Double gimmicked lol. Oh well. Xanadus are just locals looool. It's like people forget that.

Why wasn't this talked about more? Is the relationship between knockback and hitstun linear or curved? Does damage factor in at all? What were the exact tests done? Ect. Ect.

Hi Dabuz. Fancy seeing you here.

 

[DairunCates]

Eh, maybe a month or two ago, but Kong Cyclone's been known about for a while now. Surely airbender DK can't be that much of a surprise anymore?

It sometimes takes a while to develop a counter if your character has a bad matchup. GimR runs a lot of things, so I still think it'd be pretty likely for him just to have not practiced this matchup much. Also, if Falco's a pocket character, then it's really likely he doesn't necessarily know the matchup if he just hasn't run into too many of them yet. It's getting less and less likely, but it's not unreasonable.

 

[Shaya]

Why wasn't this talked about more? Is the relationship between knockback and hitstun linear or curved? Does damage factor in at all? What were the exact tests done? Ect. Ect.

Honestly it should probably be it's own topic. It raises a lot of questions. If it's only for down throws (how bizarre) it could explain how blatantly easier it is to up throw follow up on a lot of down throw combo characters for longer (Sheik and Diddy are both notable examples, and when it comes to Sheik no ones up throwing right now when it's superior at mid to high percent). But what if this 42 frame or so limit applies everywhere and something so important has been missed for ages. 15 and 25 frames (approximately) in Brawl to 42 here?

 

[Kofu]

Eh, maybe a month or two ago, but Kong Cyclone's been known about for a while now. Surely airbender DK can't be that much of a surprise anymore?

Not having played against Kong Cyclone much, I have to ask if DTilt would do anything to him while he's using the move or if his super armor protects him from the windbox. Because if not I imagine that's a free juggle/punish for Game & Watch.

Incidentally, how good would Kong Cyclone be if it no longer autocancelled? Just a thought I had last night.

 

[wedl!!]

Incidentally, how good would Kong Cyclone be if it no longer autocancelled? Just a thought I had last night.

no longer gets a free win in neutral against half the cast ( *cries*).

 

[Blobface]

G&W's U-air should be fast enough to break out of Kong Cyclone, and you can always air dodge. I'll have to test this later though, since G&W is light and might not get as much frame advantage.

 

[NickRiddle]

I read through it all, it's a lot of what I'd expect from an adolescent. Quite a bit of illogical / nonsensical things were said.
Either way, would prefer that it didn't become a focal point of discussion here, it's no where near the same intent with positive results that ZeRo's was (which kept to just about the game... not personal insults).

I know you said not to do this... but...

I will gladly take my infraction.

 

[PUK]

I don't understand the point of this declaration

Anyway we all know who currently rule the meta, and we discussed some underrated characters too.

But some are kinda ignored.
Does well and somehow win 100% of the time against sheik
Is the guy everyone consider bottom, but manages to place high in every tournament where he's represented (5 in all :-()
Is the best swordman, but if japan insist in puting him in low tier and sakurai buff him he will be the next diddy
is good material, why nobody is feeling it?

 

[Dabuz]

They all lose to badly to Sheik

 

[PUK]

But rosalina is supposed to lose to sheik too, yet zero consider her top tier.

 

[bc1910]

Why wasn't this talked about more? Is the relationship between knockback and hitstun linear or curved? Does damage factor in at all? What were the exact tests done? Ect. Ect.

Can confirm Greninja's Up Throw exhibits the same or similar behaviour as the throws described in the post you quoted. I don't have frame data but my test seemed pretty conclusive.

This was done first by using two controllers and training mode's "hold L" pause function on 1/2 speed, and then with a friend using the second controller in real time. Up Throw true combos into Uair until around 60%, at which point the opponent is launched high enough to force Greninja to double jump to reach them. They will still be unable to jump or attack out of the combo (and remain unable to do so until about 100%) but can now airdodge out.

Training mode registers Uthrow -> Uair as a true combo on Sheik until about 96%, and she cannot ever jump out while it's registered as a true combo, but she can airdodge out from about 60% onwards. So training mode's combo counter is rather misleading.

Seems like hitstun scales properly for jumping and using specials, as it did in Brawl, but now scales for normal attacks as well, which wasn't the case in Brawl (25 frames of hitstun before you could attack iirc). However there is still a hitstun cap for airdodging, but it's now 41 frames compared to Brawl's 12(?) frames.

So far it seems only throws have been tested but I would not be surprised if this behaviour applied to every attack in the game.

 

[GeneralLedge]

They all lose to badly to Sheik

But dark type is immune to psychic...

 

[Dabuz]

40-60 MU as opposed to 35-65 or worse. Honestly a lot of characters that would be viable aren't because they got BODIED by sheik, and a lot of the good/ top characters just lose slightly to Sheik.

 

[Meru.]

GimR has achieved more consistency than Songun or any other G&W and you know it. Coming 4th in a 170 man tourney that wasn't even stacked means nothing next to consistent results in MD/VA. And it's only because GimR is good.

ROFL that 170 (!) man tourney wasn't stacked?! It had Edge, Choco, Kie, Shogun, Rain and Earth in top 8! Every big tourney in Japan is stacked... Even their online ladder is stacked.

 

[Ikes]

I don't understand the point of this declaration

Anyway we all know who currently rule the meta, and we discussed some underrated characters too.

But some are kinda ignored.
Does well and somehow win 100% of the time against sheik
Is the guy everyone consider bottom, but manages to place high in every tournament where he's represented (5 in all :-()
Is the best swordman, but if japan insist in puting him in low tier and sakurai buff him he will be the next diddy
is good material, why nobody is feeling it?

supposedly WFT's small hitboxes are what limit her but im not so sure, I think she is at least mid tier

 

[PUK]

40-60 MU as opposed to 35-65 or worse. Honestly a lot of characters that would be viable aren't because they got BODIED by sheik, and a lot of the good/ top characters just lose slightly to Sheik.

You see that's my issue with sheik. If you give her a 70:30 MU against let say megaman, i would suppose he has no chances. But then a megaman destroys a sheik in loser final of a national. You assume she bodies everyone bar Diddy kong, luigi and maybe some others, but then someone decide to say **** this and win.
I think sheik is in the current meta the best character. But there is so much results against that, and i don't understand them.