Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Jerodak]

If you're far away, just breath fire on it or n-air through. Be sure to hit the the orb, avoid the tail.

 

[EarthBound18]

As a Bowser player, "Yoshi, Sonic" are pretty hard for me, Any strategies for these MUs if already posted just quote it.

 

[Jerodak]

@ EarthBound18 Dug up an old post with slight edits.

One thing to consider about Yoshi's eggs is that he cannot perform an action until around when the egg pops on it's own. It helps to keep this in mind, especially if Yoshi is in the air. If you predict the throw, you can just run past where the egg would hit and get an easy aerial. It's good to always be in a good position where you can punish an aerial egg toss, since it can lead to easy Bairs and other nice things. On the ground it's the same story, the lag is still awful, so learning how late/far you can shield the egg at various arcs while still getting a safe advance will be important when he's trying to zone you out, and of course mixing in some jumps to make Yoshi think about the anti-air option may help but you're usually best off simply perfect shielding.

If Yoshi ever throws an egg high while you're on the ground, then you've been given one of the safest approaches in the game, make sure you're spaced appropriately to get in quick if this ever happens. If Yoshi tries to recover low with an Egg, Dair can plow through an egg easy, see if you can get the spike if he does this close enough to the ledge.

If yoshi is mashing jabs on shield, which is an incredibly common thing in my experience, you can punish in between them with any frame 10 option OOS (Or frame 17 if we're adding the release frames.) so Dtilt, Dsmash, Ftilt, Bair or anything faster than that should hit a Jab-happy Yoshi before he can hit you.

Edit: Here's something I should probably specify, when dealing with a jab-happy Yoshi, if you're going for any punish options then only attempt to punish after a jab 2. Those punishes will work before Yoshi can start another jab combo. That's probably obvious for most players, but someone who is new might get the wrong idea; just making sure.

Also, if Yoshi double jumps, try to snatch him out of the air with a grab. He won't get the jump back that way so you can gimp and juggle him easier this way.

Learn how to Sdi out of D-air on hit so you can punish with down b. Also keep in mind that Fair extends Yoshi's hurtbox. So it's a bit easier to punish than it seems.

If you get egg layed, relax and pay attention, you don't always need to mash out immediately, sometimes waiting is better. The same applies to buries.

Hope that helps, go crush em!

 

[Jerodak]

I have some more questions about Sheik, and a few ideas as well. What does a good Sheik's recovery look like? How reliant are they on Bouncing Fish? How often do they go high, and how often do they snap the ledge?

Also we out range Sheik in the air right? So when she's offstage couldn't we kinda just get in her face? As long as the spacing is good it shouldn't be a problem and the risk/reward seems favorable at least on paper. She lacks a good spike, her aerials (barring up air maybe) are weak and all of them lack range and/or extend her hurtbox.

If you get hit you will likely just fly back to the stage. Her spike sucks, so it's probably a non-factor if you pay attention. Also, being close to her makes it harder to up b safely. The I frames start on frame 19, which is slower than everything we have. And how big is the hitbox? Can we outspace it?

I notice also that the reappear hitbox is frame 55 while the I frames end on frame 53. So it should lose if it appears into an active hitbox.

Depending on how Bouncing fish is used, however, that is probably the biggest opening we can capitalize on. She lags after the hitbox comes out right? Also, can it trade with our D-air? If it can then we could punish ledge snap attempts that way.

Outside of that, if she tries to snap with up b, Bowser can hit it from onstage with f-tilt and d-tilt. And if not then Bowser's edge guarding is fairly strong and how's her ledge game? I know she can airdodge onto the stage and maybe bouncing fish, but what are her other options?

I know this all sounds rather ambitious, but after having a discussion with @_Tree over in a thread he made on the Sheik boards, I'm actually wondering if her counter play is really as weak as I initially thought. I have asked around about it as well, others felt the same but I'm wondering if we're just missing something.

I still think it'd be nice if Sheik got adjustments of course, but in the meantime it might be best to look for what we can. And for those who have played good Sheiks, what are your thoughts on her counter play? Is there maybe something everyone is missing?

Link to the discussion for anyone interested
http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-sheik-and-balancing-a-discussion-on-expectations.414171/

 

[Big Sean]

@ J Jerodak I think edge guarding sheik is possible, but I've found it can be difficult because a lot of what we can do can be beaten on reaction.

Let's say we are right on the ledge. Now sheik can be super high or low. If she is high then the fear is as she passes the ledge height, she will either throw needles or bouncing fish. So you are kind of forced to either shield in anticipation of these options or short hop towards her and hope to punish with a fair or punish the air dodge with bair/dair. If sheik is smart though she has a straight up trump card that beats you approaching her on reaction. Vanish. She immediately has no hitbox when she uses it and it can possibly kill you depending on your percentage.

If she is low, we'd like to think that a trump or downward tilted ftilt will stop her, but we have to be out of shield waiting. This basically screams "vanish slightly higher to hit us!" Even if we hard read it and shield, she will likely regrab the leedge before being able to punish her. The best thing i've found is to be slightly inside of the stage so we are out of vanish range, and then do a dashing trump. This means though that a ftilt snapback is not possible. Unless someone knows a way to do a fast dashing ftilt that I don't know about? On paper dair is also a good option, but I personally have no experience with that.

Her ledge game is whatever. The two unique things she has is ledge hop fair, and ledge hop vanish. The fun thing is that if we fortress either option while hugging the ledge, she dies a super super low percentage death.

 

[a stray cat]

This might be useful against Pacman players: http://gfycat.com/DisastrousWholeHairstreakbutterfly

 

[Big Sean]

This might be useful against Pacman players: http://gfycat.com/DisastrousWholeHairstreakbutterfly

Oh man that is so ****ing cool! It cancels the end lag every time?

 

[a stray cat]

Oh man that is so ****ing cool! It cancels the end lag every time?

So long as you land on the top of it. If you graze the size, it'll knock the hydrant away, but you'll land on the stage.

 

[Jerodak]

@ a stray cat Gyfycat does not work on my phone, would you mind explaining what happened? Did you d-air into a hydrant?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak He shielded the hydrant and hit it with grounded bomb. The end lag animation got canceled into the falling animation once the hydrant took off after its brief moment of hit-stun.

 

[Jerodak]

Labbing it up vs Sonic, and it turns out that Bowser might have a viable option to deal with Sonic's side b. If you perform a perfect parry vs side b then there are three things that can happen.

First, Sonic stays on the ground after hitting your shield. In this case you can OS up b, side b, and even down b. However, side b only works consistently if you do a running perfect shield, otherwise it seems range dependent. Down b works relatively well but sometimes the first hit trades, loses, or misses. Up b was the most consistent option in this situation no matter what.

Second thing that happens is Sonic jumps, and you just continue shielding anyway because you're still in shield stun, so you're completely safe.

The third situation is kinda troubling. If Sonic times the jump properly, it's a frame 2 hitbox so it can frame trap your option. However, this would likely require precise timing to perform consistently while we don't have to time anything. So it might be fine as long as there isn't a way to consistently time the jump every time.

If someone knows a sonic player and wants to test that out then that would be great!

I'll keep everyone posted on anything else I find.

By the way, this doesn't work on down b. Just block it or jab clank him.

 

[Cassius.]

what the hell is a perfect parry... a perfect shield?

nevermind got it after reading a bit more.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Cassius. Sorry about the confusion, I've been hyped up on Tech of the week lately, and I like to use their tech names since they are recent. I'm really excited about the Pparry Option select, and option selects in general. I feel like it will be great for Bowser considering all of his tools.

By the way, for those who don't know, it seems you can short hop air dodge cancel with item throwing just like you can with specials. Of course Link can do this too since he has the same air dodge window. So look out for SHAD bomb throws I guess? On the other hand, this is great for when you might mess up the item toss OS, or as another mix up option.

 

[Cassius.]

I posted about that item toss OS months ago man LOL

like...a huuuuge info-dump about it. But yeah, it's good that people are finally starting to recognize it.

I posted about it like three times, actually. It's why I think the Link/TLink/Rockman etc. MUs aren't bad at all.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah man, it might help with Peach too. However, I think pparry up/forward tilts would be more viable. Should be able to stuff SH toss -> f-air, e.c.t

 

[Cassius.]

caught someone with instant item toss back -> aerial bomb shieldbreak. was pretty dope.

 

[Hitman JT]

Starting to think that is a terrible match-up. As soon as you get grabbed once you're going to take 5 up-airs and there's absolutely goddamn nothing that you can do about it. You have to fight this guy like a Luigi that has Shulk's range.

 

[Zigsta]

Starting to think that is a terrible match-up. As soon as you get grabbed once you're going to take 5 up-airs and there's absolutely goddamn nothing that you can do about it. You have to fight this guy like a Luigi that has Shulk's range.

I still need to play DK post patch but prior to it this MU was EZ. But I know he got a lot of stuff off throws now.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zigsta The cargo up throw -> UAir or dong-copter is basically the worst of it. With it, DK can net a great percent lead or just outright kill us at later percents (earlier with rage), and air dodging does nothing because Hoo Hah. The buffs DK received to FSmash and USmash hit box size doesn't really affect the neutral. His dash attack got reduced end lag, but that's not really a problem.

Looking at DK as a whole, he already had good pokes and a surplus of options against shields but no killer OoS option. Now his grab is a real power-house OoS option. Put that all together and I agree it's basically like you're mentally preparing yourself to fight Luigi. The match can turn on you at any moment and the only thing saving us is the fact that a grounded Bowser is a rock.

 

[Jerodak]

@ UltimaLuminaire Can you jump away from the up air at K.O percents? If it's free then I guess fighting DK becomes a game of keep away. If you get the lead first it should help, maybe. But I can try to lab it up the best I can if you want.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak There's a KO percent sweetspot for each character where you can't jump out and you'll be guaranteed to die (this was really apparent on MVG League's twitch broadcast of M2K practicing with DK). It's sort of like Sheik in that regard. After that, you can jump out and hopefully find a way to escape to the ledge or land as DK has no way to impose a 50/50 at that point. If you could lab up what those percents are for Bowser at best and at worst (depending on stage), that would be great. Even just knowing the basic percent without rage should give a good idea of what it can be like with rage.

Yeah, getting DK into high percent first can allow you to jump out earlier. If you take a stock off him, though, prepare for the Hoo Hah comeback.

Nah, but it's like most people already surmise. Since it's a set-up that runs off a grab, you just can't play sloppy. To my knowledge, DK's Jab 1 can hit confirm into a grab, but most of our attacks out range DK's jab 1. DK's DTilt should also be able to hit confirm into Jab 1 or dash grab at lower percents, which is devastating but won't be the poke that ends our stock.

 

[Hitman JT]

I still need to play DK post patch but prior to it this MU was EZ. But I know he got a lot of stuff off throws now.

Not quite. He has range that rivals ours, superior frame data, and even before the patch he could hoo-hah us because we are Bowser; we're fat as hell, and we have that glaring blind spot under us that DK loves to abuse. The reduced knockback on the cargo > up-throw makes it even worse. All we have on him is the fact that we have a good OOS option outside of shield grab and fire breath that can make it hard for DK to recover. Really annoying to see every heavyweight get guaranteed throw followups except us, even ****ing Ganondorf.

 

[Jerodak]

Unfortunately that's not something I can lab effectively at the moment, the best I could do Is finding set-ups which may buff our advantage state. I'm imagining that we basically just want to up throw him back. He can't grab you from the air, and the only landing option that appears remotely threatening is the hail Mary armor punch.

If I'm wrong let me know.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm mostly worried about DK's jab lock game. After writing a book on the subject, Donkey Kong is up there with having the best combination of diverse moves to lock with, and excellent rewards for finishing a lock with. Bowser's weight makes him get locked the longest of the cast, and he's also the largest prone target, thus easy to hit with a variety of moves. When fighting DK, DO NOT miss your techs.

Getting grabbed is terrible in this MU. I've seen how his cargo throw is different, and it's night and day.

I'm imagining that we basically just want to up throw him back. He can't grab you from the air, and the only landing option that appears remotely threatening is the hail Mary armor punch.

Not a bad call. The only aerial they like landing with is Bair because of its range, quick startup, and low landlag. But he's not facing us after we Uthrow him. Fire breath is also handy for this MU. He could jump at us and aerial giant punch through the flames if he has the charge. But the aerial version has a measly 4 frames of super armor to work with compared to the grounded version's 10. It may even be impossible since the flames hitting a target do not create hitlag for Bowser or subsequent flames.

Condition him to shield so that we can punish him for doing so. Flying Slams and Bowser Bombs should shock the monkey.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn Thanks for replying, I don't like using edits because it seems like most people miss them. So I'll just put this here instead.

I know I mentioned this before(In an edit, ironically), but remember that Bowser's jump backwards has the best animation. (The only one where he tucks in his legs.) So when attempting to jump out of combos(from someone approaching from below), it may be best to always jump back if you can. Also to move even further away faster you can throw out a back air because it will move much of Bowser's body up and away from anyone below you. This might make all the difference when dealing with those strings that only just barely reach you and attacks from below in general.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Yeah, it's fun using BAir to move Bowser's hurtbox around. I mean, we're still fat, but it's a very convincing shift in our hurt box (lol short hop BAir over projectiles always makes me laugh).

@ J Jerodak NP. How about testing our optimal follow-ups to shielding DK's BAir and full charge pawnch? Do we get aerial checked badly? Also, would you be able to test how much time we have to react to DK's dash grab after shielding Jab 1 or DTilt?

Oh, and I read your edits, Jerodak. It's just that my typical response to posts that I like is to, well, hit "like."

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ Zapp Branniglenn Thanks for replying, I don't like using edits because it seems like most people miss them. So I'll just put this here instead.

I know I mentioned this before(In an edit, ironically), but remember that Bowser's jump backwards has the best animation. (The only one where he tucks in his legs.) So when attempting to jump out of combos(from someone approaching from below), it may be best to always jump back if you can.

No such luck. His double jump backward has no beneficial animation. In fact, I wouldn't even say his standard jump's is all that great.

From some basic labbing, using the standard cargo Uthrow to Uair never produces a true combo in terms of hitstun. But since our air dodge doesn't make us invulnerable until 4 frames, it's still very possible for us to get caught if we simply choose to air dodge past it. Maybe at very specific percentage ranges like 30-40, a second Uair is impossible to escape, but our frame 1 double jump seems to be all we need. And if you're high on percent, blow your double jump after the cargo throw. It sends us quite high.

What should we be mashing when buried? I like Dair since we gain extra height. It may let us whiff punish an incoming Uair.

 

[Jerodak]

Oh it doesn't? That's my blunder t hen, but using back air, and even neutral and forward air to lesser extents should still help at least a bit.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

I just ran into a Ryu who was able to jab lock (u-tilt I think it is?) me from 0-70%. He would essentially keep elbowing me from one end of the stage to the other. In the few circumstances I did get away with DI'ing up and away with up-b, he would run up and continue or roll behind me and continue. Is there a reliable way to escape this?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Kooky Koopa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIdyVK1aDtg
Just gotta keep practicing escaping the UTilt.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

@ UltimaLuminaire
Thanks for the link, I didn't actually know there was a difference between SDI and DI. Just to clarify however, is my most reliable method of escape to SDI up and away or try to SDI up and towards Ryu?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Kooky Koopa That's a good question. I don't actually have the answer to what's best right now because I've always done up and away.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

@ UltimaLuminaire
Just wanted to say thanks again. Thanks to the SDI I was able to actually escape it reasonably enough times. Even if I did get caught, it was still possible to make my escape soon after, particularly at low % or if Ryu caught me at the edge of the u-tilt.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-...he-gods-big-daddy-koopa.414936/#post-20010226


Link to the Pit/Dark Pit-Bowser MU. We could use your input.

 

[TehMud]

So again I'm not sure if it was alaready posted, but Robin. A good patient Robin. I have issues with almost every heavy char without a projectile against him. Especially after the last patch.

I remember seeing a comment by DkWill regarding DK's matchup that it's doable, but exruciating. And that you have to edgeguard hardcore.

I just don't know how to close the gap. It feels like a mountain against a patient Robin.

 

[DERUDERUDERUDERU]

One thing to remember about Robin is his Projectiles only have X amount of uses before they turn into books (which can be used against you). Arc Fire (and her fire jab combo) have 6 usages, and Thunder's a little more complicated but it can be tracked. If they ever run out, you've got an extra angle of approach.

Framedata wise, Arc Fire is a 64 frame commitment, with the first hitbox coming out on frame 11, Thunder is 43, El Thunder/Arc Thunder are 55 frame commitments. All of the Thunder's Hitboxes come out on frame 11. Thoron is a 62/71 frame commitment (depending on how hard you hold down B), with the hitboxes coming out frame 20.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

+1
Olimar
Wario
Zelda
Little Mac
Shulk
Ganondorf
Villager (yes +1. once you're in front of his face with a good amount of perfect shielding, the MU steers in a positive light. bowling ball off stage is dealed with good timing on up b)
Samus
Lucas
Mewtwo
Palutena
Dr. Mario
Jigglypuff (not as big advantage as a couple think but still def an advantage)
GW (lol poor little guy. Bowser is just really safe against him and he struggles to get in a solid wall of play)
Bowser Jr. (dont really see why this would be even)


0
Wii Fit Trainer
Charizard (buffed so +1 to 0. still a solid mu)
Kirby (buffs will make kirby evenish but def still a solid MU for Bowser, Kirby is light and Bowser is heavy. He can't make any solid mistake or he's dead)
Greninja (slight disadvantage but nothing big to make it -1.)
Lucario (he's got the tools to deal with Bowser, and Bowser has the tools to deal with him. Simple as that)
Mega Man (seems evenish, barely favors mega but nothing huge enough to put it at -1)
Rob (can zone wall us amazingly but his recovery and good item play is what makes this MU 45-55)
Robin (a bit similar to rob, recovery is predictable and can be gimped, has trouble killing a good shielding)
Toon Link
Mario
Ike
Roy
Link (know how to dance with the items and good shielding and it'll be evenish)
Marth/Lucina (buffs and stuff is gonna make this even)
Ness
Pac Man (Hydrant is very easy to deal with, up smash or use the bowser bomb to destroy it with 0 end lag. Pac simply has trouble killing a good perfect shielding at times in neutral with his hella punishable grab. 50-50 or possibly even 55-45.)

-1
Captain Falcon (doable if you can edgeguard him good)
Pit
Dark Pit
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Peach
Pikachu
Rosalina
Luigi
Falco
Sonic (not as bad as most people think. still a disadvantage but with the amount of nerfs to Sonic's killing power, it slowly becomes just barely a little more doable. I wouldn't put this at -2)
DK (up throw buff makes me sad : (
Fox (faster, better frame data, just is a pain in the ass to deal with at times in neutral. however I def dont see it being -2, take advantage when he's trying to recover and shield a lot at higher %'s since his grabs aren't too fit for killing. its a doable MU)
Metaknight
Ryu (will possibly be at -2 in the future if Bowser remains the same with no patch changes)

-2
Zero suit samus
Yoshi
Shiek

dis is it boiz

 

[a stray cat]

Anyone have some Megaman matchup tips? My last few games against Megaman players have come down to me gambling on hard reads (and winning, thankfully), which I'd prefer not to do.

My main issue is getting in if their strategy is to never go in, and to prevent me from going in by alternating nair and ftilt/jab, while trying to create opportunities with metal blade and crash bomb. I have a very difficult time getting close enough to ever punch Megaman this way.

My main strategy is to try to read the metal blade/crash bomb throws, and time going in so I catch the metal blade and hit Megaman with a dash attack, or grab/dash attack through the crash bomb, then try to transfer it to him. If I mistime it however I'll get jabbed out, and then possibly followed up by a lot of damage. Is there a more reliable way to break in?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

If Megaman doesn't commit, I'm usually forced to use some fire. Though, if he's using Nair, that's a pretty big commitment. You can try and catch that with dash attack.

 

[a stray cat]

Is nair from Megaman a big commitment? Usually what I see is alternating nair/jab for constant lemons if I get close enough for that.