Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn so basically we can stock lucario then just hang out center stage and shield? If so, then we should probably rate the match-up as ""

 

[Emblem Lord]

Quoting because I ran the numbers through and the 16% hit of dsmash is -39 on shield.

It's even more horribly unsafe than I originally thought...

With shield drop its more like -31. Who does a point blank d-smash?

 

[Jerodak]

While no one is likely to intentionally space for a close dsmash. It still isn't outside the realm of possibility if you account for human error. However, even with two flawless players, bad spacing is still possible as long as long as both players are constantly moving. Deliberately walking or running into an attack while shielding to ruin otherwise perfect spacing is a viable tactic. Especially in spacing-oriented match-ups.

 

[MrEh]

We already established that spacing doesn't' even matter though.

With shield drop its more like -31. Who does a point blank d-smash?

Doesn't matter. Perfectly spaced Dsmash is still punishable by Klaw or Bowser Bomb.

Arguing that it's more like -31 compared to -39 is so incredibly moot when you get hard punished no matter what. lol

 

[Emblem Lord]

True. However my other point of it being a whiff punish and counter poke is still very valid. I would not advocate Ryus running around d-smashing shields. He has better options if he actually sees a shield.

@ KuroganeHammer Could you run numbers for Bowsers jab on block? Lordwilliams data isnt finished for Bowser and I do not know the formula for shield disadvantage off hand or I wouldnt even ask.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Jab 1 is -12 on block for shields/other actions. Not sure what it would be for link into jab 2, would imagine it's positive though.

Jab 2 is -14.

 

[Jerodak]

@ KuroganeHammer That reminds me, can you also calculate the advantage for stringing jab 1 to jab 1 with crouch cancels? On shield and hit? Or would that be something that the calculator could handle?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I don't really know how many frames it takes to crouch cancel jab though, but I can have a look.

But I should probably verify my formulas first before I talk more, and I feel like playing Paper Mario instead of doing that.

 

[Jerodak]

Okay, have fun.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bored now. Anyone trying to play? East Coast preferably.

@ KuroganeHammer You wouldnt happen to have the advantage formula posted somewhere would you?

 

[herpyderpherper]

But yeah, aura-less lucario is helpless. From the center of FD, none of Lucario's moves could kill Bowser until he was at 160% with Fsmash. Following that, Usmash kills us at about 180, and everything else requires us to be well past 200.

i spent about an hour testing auraless lucarios kill percents on Bowser, the main things we need to watch out for are aura sphere, force palm ,double team and all his smashes, if we play it safe we should be able to live upwards of 250, sorry I would put in spoilers if i new how(still somewhat new to smashboards), these were all on 3ds FD, we would want to take lucario to a stage with big blastzones
Fsmash
Back is facing blast zone : 160, Middle of FD:150, Front is facing blastzone FD:130

Usmash
180

Fair
Front is facing blastzone : 420, enough said

Bair
Middle of FD: 200, Front is facing blastzone :163, Back is facing blastzone :230

Upair
200

Dair Middle of FD:350, Front is facing blastzone :260, Back is facing blastzone :420

Nair: Midde of FD:370, Front is facing blastzone :300, Back is facing blastzone :420,

Dsmash: Middle of FD:195, Back is facing blastzone :225, Front is facing blastzone F:160,

Ftilt: Front is facing blastzone: 310, Middle of FD :390, Back is facing blastzone :475

Dtilt: Front is facing blastzone :420

Utilt 295

Uthrow:395

Dthrow:690

Fthrow: Front is facing blastzone: 390, Middle of FD:530, Back is facing blastzone :590

Bthrow: Front is facing blastzone :360, Middle of FD:430, Back is facing blastzone :510

Aura sphere: Front is facing blastzone: 240, Middle of FD:290, Back is facing blastzone :315

Force palm: Front is facing blastzone :190, Middle of FD :240

up b
Should never be used as an attack

Double team
170

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

With shield drop its more like -31. Who does a point blank d-smash?

Hey man, relax. With how insignificant shield stun is in Smash 4, a lot of characters have moves with 30 + frames in the negative for block advantage. Shields are supposed to be amazing when you block something because they're so garbage when the enemy's move whiffs or they come in for a grab instead.

I don't really know how many frames it takes to crouch cancel jab though, but I can have a look.

But I should probably verify my formulas first before I talk more, and I feel like playing Paper Mario instead of doing that.

This is not the social thread, but man, I had the wildest craving for paper mario the other day. I loved the first two, I'm just not the type to replay games compulsively, especially when I've seen all there is to see.

@ Zapp Branniglenn so basically we can stock lucario then just hang out center stage and shield? If so, then we should probably rate the match-up as ""

"Eyyyyyy!" is not a recognized rating for matchups.

I'm just making an observation about Lucario's inability to kill without aura. I don't want Bowser mains to take advantage of our opponent in this way. It would feel just like when somebody else knew just how bad Bowser's control of Flying Slam was before its update and would intentionally Bowsercide and recover to the ledge. It never happened as far as I've seen, but that possibility made us afraid of using Side B. I really hope they tone down the effects of aura in the future, both positive and negative. Because his character should be more fun.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn

Okay, consider this. You are fighting a character, any character. You get the stock lead, now in virtually every case, isn't it already the best idea not to go in? If you're not forced to approach then it makes the most sense to not approach right? If that's the case, why change it for Lucario? On a similar note, if Lucario can't give you a reason to not shield camp then why stop? Lucario isn't helpless, it has a good combo and offstage game, so Lucario punishing this strategy by gimping you is not out of the question is it?

Now about the comparison to cheesecides. In one situation, a character is being punished for landing a hit. In the other case; a character is punished for losing the lead.

 

[S_B]

True. However my other point of it being a whiff punish and counter poke is still very valid. I would not advocate Ryus running around d-smashing shields. He has better options if he actually sees a shield.

This reminds me of that joke about the guy who goes to the doctor and says "It hurts when I do this..." and the doctor says, "Then don't do that."

If Ryu gets punished on shielded Dsmash, then don't Dsmash shields, right?

 

[herpyderpherper]

Also what would be a good character to cover Bowsers bad matchups? I was thinking of mii brawler or MK.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ herpyderpherper
Take your pick. Mii Brawler completely relies on a gimmick, making it a little suspect in the long run, but I won't complain if you choose to take it to tournament. MK is a solid choice due to the almost non existent end lag on some of his moves, but he's still not as safe or amazing in neutral as Sheik, Luigi, or Pikachu. Unless you aim to be Leo, in which case go wild.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

A smart Sheik just camps Bowser with needles. She has literally no reason to approach. This forces Bowser to approach, and when you overcommit, you get punished hard for it.

It's so gross.

That's my take on the Swordfighter-Sheik MU.
With Bowser I just go in.

I'm 100% done!!!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Could I get some tips against a Falco that just randomly switches between walking back and forth and empty short hopping to control space? I end up on tilt when I can't approach against this kind of strategy, given how safe and quick many of Falco's ground and air options are without perfect shield. I can't even expect the yolo aerial side b, as it's easy to get viciously outboxed even without it.

 

[Jerodak]

If he's trying to control space, then you can try controlling more space. Walking around and empty hopping should both lose to well timed pokes and fire breath. Also, knowing where to stand is important. It sounds like he's just blowing you up in footsies, so he probably knew the proper ranges to stand at relative to Bowser. If your opponent knows this and you don't you have a huge disadvantage in neutral.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak Firebreath ended up being completely unsafe and I got SH side b -> BAir combo'd. Spacing up-angled FTilt wasn't too bad. Not sure if that's actually the best answer, though, because it also gets punished by SH side b if you don't hit.

 

[Big Sean]

It's surprising how fast falco is in the air. Most of the time when people short hop I shield on reaction. It's like how captain falcon dash grabs you before you know what's happening except it's a fair in your face. I have trouble with this matchup as well, but I don't have enough experience to really say much about it.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Big Sean I had to mix it up because when I shielded a short hop, there was a chance the opponent would tomahawk. Then the UTilt/FAir chaining would begin, as you all know.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Falco had little chance against us in the past, but he did get a better air game in a patch update, so we should re-evaluate our options. Is his short hop Side B actually worth using? I don't see how.

I've been trying to crouch walk more as Bowser lately. From a crouched position, the only aerial of his that should hit us without landing is the first hits of Nair. And we shouldn't be carried into the rest of it thanks to crouch cancelling. There's so many characters in this game that lack safe aerials to land with, and add in all this business with perfect shielding from a crouch and options selects I think Falco should be reasonable to punish when he's in the air. That Ftilt of his is pretty nasty. Not a very scary move when it hits, but the speed and range it could be used from a walk makes it an excellent poke. And Falco doesn't have Fox's amazing running speed to justify dashing toward targets. Our Dtilt and Jab pokes may not be enough, but it's the safest options we've got for somebody that walks toward us. We're certainly not going to take to the air against that.

I have to wonder if Falco does well around platforms. My guess is no better than us, so a stage pick of Battlefield should be good here.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Big Sean I had to mix it up because when I shielded a short hop, there was a chance the opponent would tomahawk. Then the UTilt/FAir chaining would begin, as you all know.

Sounds like the perfect parry + grab Os would be useful here.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Sounds like the perfect parry + grab Os would be useful here.

Yeah, that's a pretty good mix-up.

@ Zapp Branniglenn I've had Fortress (and certainly grab) OoS lose to an auto canceled DAir -> DSmash from Falco. Not sure if a power shield would have made a difference here. Even holding shield, the shield knock back puts Bowser out of range for OoS punishes and Falco can hit confirm with that monstrous frame 2 jab. Luckily, a reset isn't too bad, so just getting pushed back and walking slightly away helped more than I thought it would.

Frame data for Falco says that DSmash comes out on frame 7, and partial invincibility starts on real frame 3 and ends on real frame 8. Hmm.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, that's a pretty good mix-up.

@ Zapp Branniglenn I've had Fortress (and certainly grab) OoS lose to an auto canceled DAir -> DSmash from Falco. Not sure if a power shield would have made a difference here.

Perfect shielding always makes a difference. No shield stun and no shield pushback.

But we don't make plans around "I'll just have frame perfect guarding". I'm unfamiliar with this auto cancelled Dair. He certainly can't autocancel that from a short hop. Plus I've taken a look at his Side B, there's very little landing lag on that, so I can see how that would be difficult to punish when he uses that at proper distances for when it's blocked. But using it to setup and aerial combo has enormous risk since there's no guarantee a move with that much windup will simply hit us with our shields down.

About that Ftilt of his. It reaches precisely as far as our Jab does. Since we know how far our jab reaches, we'll know when that Ftilt can hit us. Our Dtilt does indeed reach farther than his Ftilt and swipes twice, but that's a frame 10 move against his frame 6. Plus it's no good if he jumped instead of poked. Too much endlag after a whiff.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Yeah, it's not that Falco can just approach us and we automatically lose. The FAir chain doesn't just happen out of nothing as long as you've fought a Falco before. There's a trick to this fight, though I've had trouble finding it, and having more people give input sets the mind at ease.

 

[Jerodak]

Do you mean frame cancel D-air? Cause as far as I know, that doesn't work on shields.

 

[champ21bell]

How does Bowser do against Luigi and Villager? (I'm looking for specifics not just "he does good/bad") thanks

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak He was in my shield, so it couldn't have possibly auto canceled. I must have failed Fortress OoS somehow.

 

[Big Sean]

How does Bowser do against Luigi and Villager? (I'm looking for specifics not just "he does good/bad") thanks

There a ton of specifics about both of those matchups in this very thread, but you'll have to go through all the pages to find it :/

 

[champ21bell]

I just went back and read some it, sorry for the pointless post. But I still don't think that the villager match up is that bad, but I haven't played may bowsers. Is anyone willing to play online to spar

And side not, how do I change my font color??

 

[Jerodak]

@ J Jerodak He was in my shield, so it couldn't have possibly auto canceled. I must have failed Fortress OoS somehow.

Maybe, it can be trick to fortress oos properly vs some attacks.

@ C champ21bell If Villager gets creative, it's very possible to win. And Villager has so many varied tools that it'd be a shame not to. Both characters have all the tools they need to win, you just to make sure you're making the best use of yours.

Also, the easiest villagers are the ones that flowchart with slingshot and side b set-ups. Especially if they like to stay back. Tycically because they will retreat when I walk forward and give me the stage for free, so try to find ways to fight for your space, because stage control is especially important in this match up.

I'd spar with you, but I cannot play online at the moment. Maybe another time though.

 

[TehMud]

Has Ness been discussed int his thread yet?

If not how does Bowser fight Ness? I finally fought a good Ness for the first time and got basically rekt. I got him to about 120% but was still 2-stocked. Aside from his comboes, his Forward B just racked up so much damage so quickly and Tough Guy made me just take it. I don't know how to get out of PK Fire.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Jab 15 times and ftilt him and hope he dies?

Ness requires mastery of Bowser I would think.

Since Ness gets so much off PK Fire.

 

[Jerodak]

You usually want to play patient vs Ness. He can't really force the approach, but you can't either. So this match is generally kinda slow and heavily neutral based. The reason Ness wins is because he just blows Bowser up on advantage more than he gets blown up in disadvantage. So his reward for winning in neutral is higher but his recovery sucks, his landing could be better,(Though it's probably still better than Bowser's) and he lacks good approach options.

Neither character wants to go in unlesd they are behind or have an opportunity to punish because both characters are a bit stronger at defense than offense. So being approached is the optimal situation for both sides.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Ness can be pretty difficult if they play patiently. If customs were the norm, I'd definitely say to use Dash Slash since Ness can struggle with opponents that have better mobility approaching from the air. Ness will wall you off with Fairs, PK Fire, even Thunders. This is an MU where you have to walk, which is not Bowser's strongest approach option. He takes about a full second to reach max walking speed. However, if you just dash mindlessly in, you won't be able to pull up shield unless Bowser has reached a full run or has stopped.

To get past PK Fire, there's no two ways about it. Shield the spark, and no fire gets created. Bowser's jumpsquat is longer than the rest of the cast meaning that you can't jump over it on reaction as you approach. Stay grounded so that you're not picked up by his rising Fair before you land.

Fair strings offstage are not fun, so like with Shiek, you don't want to take him to Smashville. Battlefield can give him very little room to run, and the larger blast zones let us survive longer against his most consistent kill move - Bthrow. The platforms give you security from falling Fairs. Ness is quite helpless when his opponent attacks from directly below. Keep him up there airdodging as you swat with your Utilt. Grab/Flying Slam if he's ever forced to land next to you.

If Ness is recovering with PK Thunder, don't get reckless. Hitting him before he becomes a freakin' meteor requires cracker-jack timing and accuracy. Instead, I like to sit at the very end of the ledge and use Fire Breath as he's coming in. The flames hit him before he snaps to the ledge, which will disorient most players expecting to have ledge snapped. Now they have to try PK Thunder again, this time from a vertical positon. PK Thunder is difficult to perform in a way that doesn't send you in the typical, diagonally upward directions. No Ness player enjoys having to employ accuracy with this move. They may miss and hit under the lip of FD or Battlefield, or overcompensate their aim to blast outward, past the ledge, letting you swat them with Dtilt before they fall down to grab it. He won't ledge snap if he fires in a way where he's no longer facing the ledge. Trust me, even practiced Ness players aren't used to having to perform PK thunder twice on a recovery attempt, and thus don't try and practice their angles with. Who has a move that can challenge PKT2 in such a unique way?

When they do snap the ledge, back away so you can position for his ledge options. Dsmash covers most of the choices. Finally, Ness may be a middleweight, but he's around the top ten in terms of slowest falling speed, which makes him die very early to vertical KO moves. Landing a Bowser Bomb, Flying Slam, or a clean Usmash can net you a very early stock. Grabbing with Flying Slam and landing on the top platform of Battlefield is your absolute best means of a kill. And if it doesn't kill, he's above you again which is no fun for Ness.

 

[Big Sean]

I think the ness matchup is actually pretty even. There is not really much unique to this matchup except 2 things that I see:

• Pivot Grab is less useful in this matchup because ness' dash attack has a really long range and hits bowser mid pivot grab.
• You have to be cognizant of the pkfire.

The cool thing about pkfire is the end lag. If you perfect shield it you get a free bowser bomb. Because of that I usually play this matchup super super aggro where my main approach option is dashing shield. Remember that at low percentages tough guy beats so make sure to take advantage of this by jabbing, bowser bombing or even fsmashing ness' that don't know about the matchup (most of them.) If they do know about the matchup they can just pkfire 1 more time so I definitely would just roll out in this case.

The hardest part of this matchup is at high percentages a good ness will spam up + b to constantly juggle you. I think the best way out of it is nair maybe? The timing of it is hard and I don't think it always works because of the weird hitbox of nair.

 

[Jerodak]

Is SDI useful vs excessive strings? Could it create gaps or let you escape? Since you'll be stuck in hitstun anyway it's not like you there's anything else to do. So you can focus primarily on trying to SDI the hits. Sdi is weaker in this game apparently so I am curious as I haven't tried it yet.

 

[TehMud]

Yeah I forgot to mention the constant Up+B juggling. With Bowser's issues with landing that was also very difficult and just racked up alot of damage. I did realize that the lag from Ness's Up+B is horrible, and that a Bowser Bomb eats through PK Fire. So a couple times I just got above a Up+B spamming Ness and bombed him. However when I'm far away it's such a pain.