Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[B!squick]

[Note: This maiden first post was almost finished when the cruel hand of fate erased it (I apparently clicked search when brushing dirt off my keyboard SOMEHOW).]

Forward​

Okay, the short version of what I'd been working on. 51 characters is a lot. Too many to do one at a time, even if there wasn't custom specials and two versions of the game. The Brawl match-up topic kinda sucked. Bowser seems to be a decent character, thus we owe it to the Smash community to do this without the suck. Here's a bulleted list of how I'd like to do this:

• All characters will be open to discussion at all times.
• Easy to read summaries will be made. (For reals)
• The opening post will be easy to read as a whole and free of pointless images and whatnot (the above GIF a special exception)
• Dreaded match-up numbers will be formed of two halves. One will consist of player(s) who feel they're very comfortable with the match-up. The other will be everyone else.
• Special notes will be made as they pertain to individual versions of the game. On that note, custom specials and other such non-default modifiers will not be taken into account for match-up numbers. Should a rule set using these surface, another chart will be made for them. Discussion of them is fine.

Thoughts?

 

[B!squick]

Extra post for extra space, just in case. And while I'm here I'll get the discussing started. [clears throat] ****, Little Mac. Any ideas how to deal with him? Because so far it seems like all he has to do is not jump and he'll win.

 

[_Magus_]

Fire breath makes the ground a hot zone. (literally!) Only other option he's got to go around that is jump, and we all know what happens then. *chuckles*

I think Bowser's f tilt might outrange him, but i'd have to check.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

This is a surprisingly good matchup for Bowser. I didn't think so at the beginning but after getting a good bit of practice, Mac is very manageable.

There are two kinds of Macs: The Good and the Bad. Fortunately the latter is far more frequent than the other. To make this easier, I'll seperate the sections via **.

******

To begin with the Bad. The bad Little Mac will attempt to attack you immediately, either with his forward A or that haymaker. Simply shield, then IMMEDIATELY grab him. If he is close to the edge, chuck him. If he is not close enough, throw him into the air. If he somehow flies behind you, OOS up b. You then have two options. Either run under him and deploy an up smash (make sure he doesn't counter) or go up after him and do a fair. You can generally juggle an inexperienced mac with two up smashes, then a ftilt/btilt to really ruin his day. Once he is off the edge, remotely, IMMEDIATELY start your fire breath. His alternate haymaker recovery *cannot* break through the fire, and this is almost a free stock for Bowser as Mac will gradually be driven off the platform below and will be unable to react. I've literally finished a match vs a bad Mac in nder 60 seconds in FG from doing this.

******
For a good Mac, this is a little more tricky, but ends all the same. This Mac prefers to literally stand still and wait for an opening or run at you and back tumble in rapid succession. Accept this invitation by opening up in one of two ways. Either run, then leap into the air (while moving towards him) and let lose some fire. This will start the match with around 8-15% damage and will make the Mac immediately retaliate. The second is to feint him to attack. Bull rush him but keep your finger on the shield button. The Mac will either initiate and you can shield grab and follow up or he will back off. If the latter, approach with a jump fire. Melee should start one way or another. Remember to move but stay patient and keep your focus on defending for an opening. Once again, shield, grab and then either chuck him closer to the edge (which can also be followed up by a quick fair if you're fast enough) or hold your ground and anticipate the mid flight haymaker or running forward attack. Respond to this with a quick up-smash. If he is a very good mac, always remember to stay alert, keep your finger on the shield.

If he is VERY VERY good with timing, then instead of grabbing, focus on defense. If he is not approaching, then feint him. Run quickly at him back. Repeat until the Mac either takes the bait or if he stubbornly refuses, see the fire approach above. Also a surprise down-a (The double punch,) can really wreck his day, especially when he tries his little combo which doesn't stagger you.

****
Similar to the bad mac, so long as you get him off the edge, use your fire (make sure to aim down if he is below you and up if he is in front) and Mac cannot recover onto the edge. Be wary though of surprise counters however.

It is to be noted though but as it has been mentioned, Mac ingame is like a boxer, he waits for openings. This matchup, assuming you're fighting a good one is about who can exploit who first. That and ultimately, it comes down to how well you read each other. This advice is comprehensive but in the end, how well do you know THAT Mac's playstyle is the ultimate factor.

Happy Mac hunting!

 

[MrEh]

I shoot fire in small bursts to zone him. It's usually a match of you (the Bowser) being patient.

I just fly in with Klaw when I see the opportunity. Then again, I only play with custom specials so yeah...

 

[-Kagato-]

Mac out-aggros Bowser, but Bowser easily punishes mac. A patient Bowser will be the winner here. Fire breath here and there piles on damage and just keep throwing him off the stage and adding some more fire. Eventually his terrible recovery will prevent him from returning.

If you are impatient and blindly rush Mac, you will likely lose, but anyone knows that Mac should be baited, rather than chased. Punish, punish, punish.

Either way, this matchup is in Bowser's favor. He's got the speed, the power, the weight, and the tools needed to shut Mac down.

 

[B!squick]

God I hate this web site. Do I have to start typing my posts in Notepad before hand, Smash Boards? And where are these saved drafts?

Anyway, I wish I could play against the LMs you guys are. He's got range, speed, armor on all his moves it seems like, a Counter, he can SideB over Firebreath the moment it gets low. How is this in our favor?! And it's not like getting him in the air makes things much easier. You can fast fall at the speed of light and unless you guess real good he'll just AD past you and it's back to advantage Mac. You can guarantee a NAir, sure, but that's not going to keep him in the air. Pretty sure that knockback is off to the side.

Is there anything we have that can out range him and/or space with besides Firebreath? Anything at all?

 

[Mr. Bones]

God I hate this web site. Do I have to start typing my posts in Notepad before hand, Smash Boards? And where are these saved drafts?

Anyway, I wish I could play against the LMs you guys are. He's got range, speed, armor on all his moves it seems like, a Counter, he can SideB over Firebreath the moment it gets low. How is this in our favor?! And it's not like getting him in the air makes things much easier. You can fast fall at the speed of light and unless you guess real good he'll just AD past you and it's back to advantage Mac. You can guarantee a NAir, sure, but that's not going to keep him in the air. Pretty sure that knockback is off to the side.

Is there anything we have that can out range him and/or space with besides Firebreath? Anything at all?

Dude. LMac is cake. What do you mean he has range? Yeah...lol maybe on his Dsmash. Other than that our F-tilt is disjointed at the very end and outranges all of his moves. I believe Fair also outranges most of his options.

(I'm assuming F-tilt is disjointed at the tip or his fist is invincible there because I can punch through Ike's Sword and other attacks without getting hurt)

Our Up Smash has armor(or is it invincibility?) and I've been using it against falling Macs because even his counter can't touch it. There are a few exceptions, and I can't find out what the variable is, but 80% of the time his counter won't work against Up-Smash; if he Air Dodges, he'll be hit by the Up-smash's falling hit box. Also Air Dodges are pretty weak/laggy when they hit the ground. Easy to punish with most moves/grabs.

He's literally helpless in the air. Getting him in the air makes things super easy. Even against Smart macs. And you can handle the armor on attacks simply by shield grabbing most of them. Or just Fire Breath from a distance.

Also, like Koopy Koopa said, you can literally attack him at lower/mid percents while he's trying to jab combo you. I'm not sure when it starts jarring us, but I remember F-tilting him while he was jabbing me and I was like 50-60%. At lower percents, I know you can grab him out of it.

This is so beyond in our favor. Lmacs are like free wins. Though the Meta is in its infancy, I'd be willing to say that this is-at the very least-a 75:25 MU in Bowser's favor, I'd say more than that but I'm trying to throw LM players a bone here. lol.

 

[Mr. Bones]

---Accidental double post. :/

 

[B!squick]

I'm pretty sure we don't have armor on anything, let alone invincibility.

http://smashboards.com/threads/invincibility-and-armor-list.371822

Mac on the other hand has invincibility on SideB (grounded), super armor on all smashes, and heavy armor on NeutralB.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I'm pretty sure we don't have armor on anything, let alone invincibility.
http://smashboards.com/threads/invincibility-and-armor-list.371822

Yet you have nothing to say about other relevant information I posted about the MU. This makes me sad.

That being said, you're right. I'm on crack. All of those times that his counter hitbox hit me during UP-Smash and not sending me anywhere was all in my imagination.

As well as all of those times that other hitboxes didn't affect me during Up-Smash.

Oh wait, I have replays. lulul. I'll upload them when I get the chance. Not trying to come off as rude, but I don't make claims like this unless I've tested it a lot. Hell, I still might even be wrong. I haven't tested it against ALL attacks. Even though Up-Smash beat every attack I hit it with, it may just be those specific attacks, however unlikely that is.

As far as "invincibility" on the F-tilt, that was just an alternative to it being disjointed. I just haven't tested to see which it is. But I've punched through swords and other attacks countless times without flinching. Never payed attention to whether or not I was damaged, but I'll test that out tonight.

Here's what I've tested and has been contributed so far, not sure how much is still missing, but there is more.

Also apparently this is incomplete anyway, according to that bit of the sentence.

Also let's talk about Rosa-Luma and how we have to be stupid careful against this *****. -_- And smart. The MU isn't impossible by any stretch of the imagination, but her attacks have great range, priority, and power. This is not someone we can fight recklessly, even in the infant meta.

Fire breath is super important here. Also getting in the air is terrible. Luma stops all grab/shield break set-ups and will likely be staying near Rosalina while fighting Bowser. And it's pretty annoying. Their aerials are stupid safe against us; she can fade away with them and wall you out like a better Marth. Basically have to camp her with fire and keep her away with F-tilts and play a battle of attrition and keep her at higher percentages/force her to approach or send out Luma. If she sends Luma out, it's time to haul ass and try and take advantage of it before she calls it back.

Have to try and catch her falling after a fade away aerial, but with Luma at her side, it's better to catch her with a running Up-B; our grabs are all but useless. Finishing her stock offstage involves going deeper than normal, but we can still recover if we keep our second jump. If she recovers low and tries to recover straight up to the ledge, you'll have to RAR off stage or simply drop off while facing the ledge and try to stage spike her with a Fair.

This MU is one of the more annoying ones in my opinion, simply because I can no longer Bull-Rush my opponent like a madman. Definitely winnable with patience though.

 

[Zigsta]

Rosalina seems definitely NOT in our favor. She's really good at juggling us, and her upsmash and upair even seem to outprioritize our dair and Bowser Bomb. I haven't played this MU too much, but dabuz and I are gonna get some practice games in soon. I'll post further thoughts after.

 

[Luigi player]

Also apparently this is incomplete anyway, according to that bit of the sentence.

Bowser was the first one that I tested and found out something very interesting:

Bowser has a lot of disjointed moves. Or should I say "invincible parts of his body" during some moves. You can still hit them, but Bowser won't take damage or knockback.

The most obvious is the fsmash. His legs and feet are invincible. You can destroy bob ombs with it without getting injured. You can even hit through projectiles and some moves that bounce off of something (like Greninja / Link dair) bounce off of it even though Bowser doesn't care at all. Think of it as kinda like Marths sword I guess?

Bowser has this disjointedness on these moves (I could destroy bob ombs with them without getting hit):
- jab
- ftilt
- dtilt
- uptilt (when the bomb comes falling from above)

- upair

- fsmash (legs and feet don't have a hurtbox)
- upsmash (when the bob omb comes from above; as soon as Bowser jumps up (aka you let go of the A button after charging) the bomb gets destroyed and Bowser won't get hit (no matter how late I let go of A!!!))
- dsmash (you have to be pretty close, but not too close to the bomb)

His upsmash was very interesting. It seems like his hurtbox stays on the ground like if he's not jumping - it even seems like it's shrinking a lot (way smaller than Bowser looks). It must be almost impossible to beat Bowsers upsmash from above, or even trade with it.

The only armor he has (that I know of) is the little heavy armor he has all the time, which is mentioned as a "tip" in the game (which only seems to occur when hit by multijabs or Megamans Megabuster melons).
It doesn't seem like Bowser has any other armor, his grounded upB still clashes with moves though.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Back to Mac, two of my friends have gotten scary good with him after I taught them everything I could from ZeRo's stream about how to play Mac and abuse his neutral game. The following will be from my experience across over 200 matches with my Mac toting buddies (half a weekend + online play through out the week with buddies; Battlefield - FD - Yoshi's Island).

You basically cannot react to Mac on the ground unless you've attained god-like reflexes through experience or superior parenting, and if you go in too deep with early aggression, you get punished with ftilt or haymaker unless you manage to save yourself with upb. It really does become a game of cat and mouse, with either party able to turn the tables at any moment. It's a cage match and the in-fighting is filled with mind games. You can beat out or clash with almost all of Mac's ground moves (sans KO punch) on the ground with the second hit of jab or ftilt, but that's usually luck unless you made a hard read. Mac also will not want to jab combo you at early percents, since it will trigger Tough Guy and you'll land, shield, and punish Mac's horribly laggy jab finisher. You eventually have to do as everyone has said before me, and start pressuring with fire just to make progress in shrinking Mac's available walk-space. The big moments come down to these things:

1. Is he gonna counter?
2. Is he gonna try to grab me?
3. Is he gonna rush down with an attack?

Baiting Mac

Spoiler

Mac is conditioned to catch you as you land or misfire your dodge (roll or otherwise). Messing with auto canceled aerials or klaw into jabs, tilts, shields, or spot dodges grant you a variety of ways to bait Mac into committing and forcing a trade. 9/10, you want a trade with your ftilt or dtilt, which will send him either close or completely off-stage, with the latter option granting the potential of low profiling his side b approach before landing a hit. If he rolls into you while you try to bait, both jab and ftilt (as well as sideb) will be completely useless and fly past him. The only options at that point are to carefully walk in his general direction and grab (curse you, circle pad!), reflexively upb, or dsmash on a hard read. If that happens, or you get lucky and land a dash attack, fox trotting (sorta) towards his new position is a great way to continue the pressure without exposing yourself after a misfire. If you chase Mac into the air, he's gonna want to counter, so you can bait that. An interesting thing to do if you feel like trying to challenge the reaction speed of the Mac is to chase with a full jump neutral air. If you hit before he counters, it's 15-20% damage easy, and if he counters successfully, the knockback is so bad that you can likely fast-fall and land safely before Mac can capitalize.

Ground Approach

Spoiler

Back on the ground, if you're going balls deep, your best options are to running shield cancel, dash canceled jab/ftilt, or, believe it or not, dash pivot grab. It's possible to run past Mac due to how far forward he goes with his attacks without the Mac intending for it to happen, and I've caught my friends several times with this when they were expecting other options. Never dash attack unless you're confident or you're following up on something.

This sounds like a lot of luck, but the simple matter is that you win trades, you're better at edge guarding by miles, and you're ungodly hard to kill without a throw -> upb combo or a KO punch through your shield. Get used to intensity, because even though logic says there's a slight favor for Bowser, it's gonna be real even up to the very end simply due to Mac's inherent strengths and built-in comeback potential, both of which exceed our own on the ground.


EDIT: I didn't mention this before because I assume everyone here are geniuses, but I need to make sure absolutely everyone who cares about this matchup are on the same page. Don't, for the love of all that is good in the world, try to drop onto Mac from directly above. His upb always wins and will kill you insanely early. Just try and bait him with your landing unless you think you can angle your down air enough to catch him (solid hit or wind effect will work). You could also measure at what point fair would auto cancel while falling from a great height, but that's more skill then I actually have and would care to use in that situation. If Mac hesitates, it's possible to protect your landing with angled down fire. Also, I want to make sure everyone knows how to edge guard Mac. If he's level to the stage, flame (used to wall or bait a side b) or walk-off double jump fair does the trick every time. If Mac tries to counter attack from the height of a walk-off fair, he's dead anyway. If he recovers high, take care to see if he'll counter attack first. Just carefully jump at him and follow-up from there. If he's going for an upb recovery from below the stage (which all good Macs should), you can either walk around to cover his options or be ballsy and go for a walk-off bair, which can potentially catch him so long as you're not within the huge vertical hitbox of his recovery. I've been able to win against these Macs against all odds, and it's only because of intense focus. Even if you end up winning by 2 stocks, it'll be a close victory because of how amazing you have to play just to attain any sort of meaningful lead. Bowser mains from Melee and Brawl know the drill: stay frosty.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Bowser has a lot of disjointed moves. Or should I say "invincible parts of his body" during some moves. You can still hit them, but Bowser won't take damage or knockback.

Bowser has this disjointedness on these moves (I could destroy bob ombs with them without getting hit):
- jab
- ftilt
- dtilt
- uptilt
- upair
- fsmash (legs and feet don't have a hurtbox)
- upsmash (when the bob omb comes from above; as soon as Bowser jumps up (aka you let go of the A button after charging) the bomb gets destroyed and Bowser won't get hit (no matter how late I let go of A!!!))
- dsmash (you have to be pretty close, but not too close to the bomb)

His upsmash was very interesting. It seems like his hurtbox stays on the ground like if he's not jumping - it even seems like it's shrinking a lot (way smaller than Bowser looks). It must be almost impossible to beat Bowsers upsmash from above, or even trade with it.

The only armor he has (that I know of) is the little heavy armor he has all the time, which is mentioned as a "tip" in the game (which only seems to occur when hit by multijabs or Megamans Megabuster melons).
It doesn't seem like Bowser has any other armor, his grounded upB still clashes with moves though.

That's what I thought. Turns out other characters have these invincible body parts on certain attacks too, according to the random Tips. One other that I can remember is Mario's UpSmash. A tip said that his head is invincible during the attack. Thanks for clearing this up.

Rosalina seems definitely NOT in our favor. She's really good at juggling us, and her upsmash and upair even seem to outprioritize our dair and Bowser Bomb. I haven't played this MU too much, but dabuz and I are gonna get some practice games in soon. I'll post further thoughts after.

Yep. I would say not in our favor, but I don't think it's polarized either. Definitely needs to be approached safely and more research is needed.

You basically cannot react to Mac on the ground unless you've attained god-like reflexes through experience or superior parenting, and if you go in too deep with early aggression, you get punished with ftilt or haymaker unless you manage to save yourself with upb.

Reacting to Mac is pretty easy. If he runs straight at you, Shield->Grab. If he starts doing the Dodge-Back fake-out, Fire Breath. You can be aggressive if you play smart and bait his moves, which are pretty easy to be honest. You're right though, Up-B is a nice tool for this.

You can beat out or clash with almost all of Mac's ground moves (sans KO punch) on the ground with the second hit of jab or ftilt, but that's usually luck unless you made a hard read.

Or you can just throw Jab/F-tilt out to threaten space and pressure him away. Works for me. Not much luck involved, maybe some read. Also Fire Breath if he tries to be aggro. Gravy.

Mac also will not want to jab combo you at early percents, since it will trigger Tough Guy and you'll land, shield, and punish Mac's horribly laggy jab finisher.

"Tough Guy" actually works around 50/60 percent too. At this point you can still jab/tilt/grab him out of his jab combo. Not sure about higher percentages, but that's the highest I've been able to endure his jabs.

1. Is he gonna counter?
2. Is he gonna try to grab me?
3. Is he gonna rush down with an attack?

1. Bait the counter. Punish. Use Grabs mostly if they're counter-happy.
   
2. Use Jabs and Tilts to keep him and his grabs away.
3. Rush Bowser down? His funeral. Shield Grab.

This sounds like a lot of luck, but the simple matter is that you win trades, you're better at edge guarding by miles, and you're ungodly hard to kill without a throw -> upb combo or a KO punch through your shield. Get used to intensity, because even though logic says there's a slight favor for Bowser...

It's more than slightly in our favor. Because of everything you listed above.

EDIT: I didn't mention this before because I assume everyone here are geniuses, but I need to make sure absolutely everyone who cares about this matchup are on the same page. Don't, for the love of all that is good in the world, try to drop onto Mac from directly above. His upb always wins and will kill you insanely early.

Nope, but jumping at him at an angle with Fire Breath is gravy though.

Also, I want to make sure everyone knows how to edge guard Mac.

Throw him off stage->hit him with something or bait the counter->Gravy

Edgeguarding Mac is pretty simple. I would do a drop-off Fair instead of Bair for when he tries to recover straight to the ledge. Just RAR off stage or drop off while facing the stage/ledge. Fair has more range and is easy to hit.

I've been able to win against these Macs against all odds, and it's only because of intense focus. Even if you end up winning by 2 stocks, it'll be a close victory because of how amazing you have to play just to attain any sort of meaningful lead.

Really you just have to be a little smart and patient to get a meaningful lead. Any lead is meaningful to be honest. If you're 1% above them, they have to approach(in Tournaments at least). You can still apply this to a one stock lead in For Glory. We have a useful Fire Breath now. Yay us. <3

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

That's what I thought. Turns out other characters have these invincible body parts on certain attacks too, according to the random Tips. One other that I can remember is Mario's UpSmash. A tip said that his head is invincible during the attack. Thanks for clearing this up.



Yep. I would say not in our favor, but I don't think it's polarized either. Definitely needs to be approached safely and more research is needed.



Reacting to Mac is pretty easy. If he runs straight at you, Shield->Grab. If he starts doing the Dodge-Back fake-out, Fire Breath. You can be aggressive if you play smart and bait his moves, which are pretty easy to be honest. You're right though, Up-B is a nice tool for this.



Or you can just throw Jab/F-tilt out to threaten space and pressure him away. Works for me. Not much luck involved, maybe some read. Also Fire Breath if he tries to be aggro. Gravy.



"Tough Guy" actually works around 50/60 percent too. At this point you can still jab/tilt/grab him out of his jab combo. Not sure about higher percentages, but that's the highest I've been able to endure his jabs.

1. Bait the counter. Punish. Use Grabs mostly if they're counter-happy.
   
2. Use Jabs and Tilts to keep him and his grabs away.
3. Rush Bowser down? His funeral. Shield Grab.

It's more than slightly in our favor. Because of everything you listed above.




Nope, but jumping at him at an angle with Fire Breath is gravy though.



Throw him off stage->hit him with something or bait the counter->Gravy

Edgeguarding Mac is pretty simple. I would do a drop-off Fair instead of Bair for when he tries to recover straight to the ledge. Just RAR off stage or drop off while facing the stage/ledge. Fair has more range and is easy to hit.



Really you just have to be a little smart and patient to get a meaningful lead. Any lead is meaningful to be honest. If you're 1% above them, they have to approach(in Tournaments at least). You can still apply this to a one stock lead in For Glory. We have a useful Fire Breath now. Yay us. <3

Whatever you're talking about, those Macs are BAD. Bad bad bad bad bad. Never use For Glory mode as an excuse to say that all Macs should be played that way. Mac does not leave neutral game unless they're confident you suck, you goofed, or are following-up. Mac goes in, goes out, just like an actual boxer. He walks and talks with ftilts. Everything you've said to belittle my experiences against a Mac that intimately understands ZeRo's explanation of the neutral game, and how Mac is supposed to play it, is more than a little off-putting. This goes double for taking my tips for beginners out of context, as well as my respect for everyone that has posted about flamebreath's effectiveness before me. At this point, it seems like there's nothing I can say that you won't immediately retort with "but we win." Sorry if you feel that way about Mac and my experience with people using their deeper understanding of the neutral game, powerful rolls, and superior followups to make comebacks from a 2 stock lead. I've got nothing more to contribute here. Thanks for your time and input on Mac and I hope to somehow contribute more in other matchups.

EDIT: @ Mr. Bones All tilts and flame are punishable on wind-down by Mac's dash grab (high five @ Zigsta ). Only spam tilts if the enemy Mac is seriously that bad, your opponent's/buddy's circle pad broke, or you're actually properly spaced for the ftilt and are applying pressure (even then, it's possible for a clash to happen, and Mac can just walk away). At least use jab if you're just gonna walk towards Mac so you can react with a shield, spot dodge, or roll. Even better if they screw up first, because that can lead to a free dash grab or, if they're close enough, ftilt/fsmash. It's a situation that would not exist with the wind-down from our tilts. Also, jabbing or ftilt through Mac's jab via tough guy is not consistent. It depends how quickly you land on the ground once the flurry starts. It's far better to block the final hit and dash grab to ensure stage control. It's possible to dash -> klaw or fsmash after shielding it as well for more damage and stage control, but I personally suck with klaw in these instances and I've had occasions where the fsmash whiffed because of the push-back on the jab finisher.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Implying that all of the Macs I played on For Glory were all bad players is a bit off-putting. Also not all of them were from For Glory.

Implying that the group of people I play with don't have a deep understanding of the neutral game and the roll fake-outs is also pretty upsetting.

Also I never said "But We Win" as my argument. I actually explained my experiences with it and what works for me.

When I talk about using F-tilt to keep him back, of course I mean to space it. You don't want to just spam tilts willy-nilly.

And I wasn't trying to belittle your advice really. I agree with most of what you said except for the MU being close or Mac being hard to react to on the ground.

I get that they can dip in and out with what I consider to be the strongest roll in the game, but keeping jabs and tilts out and "strobing" your shield is fairly good at keeping them at bay.

I wouldn't hold Fire Breath on them too long. Just to burn them a bit and pressure them away. That way you can keep a fairly safe distance from any punishes they attempt. I've been able to flash a Fire Breath at them and hit them with jabs when they ran in to try and catch me on cool down.

I wouldn't throw out F-smashes to punish the jab, personally. Grabs/jabs are typically better. I can see what you're saying though.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At any rate, the Macs I played-for the most part-were plenty good, thanks. It's still my position that we have a fairly great advantage as long as you're quick about it; Bowser has what it takes to be quick now.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm pretty sure we don't have armor on anything, let alone invincibility.

http://smashboards.com/threads/invincibility-and-armor-list.371822

Mac on the other hand has invincibility on SideB (grounded), super armor on all smashes, and heavy armor on NeutralB.

You're right, instead we have the shell guard on our upsmash, which, if used properly, may as well be invincibility because it doesn't care about anything. If you don't believe me, go into training mode and throw a bob-om into the air, wait till it's on the way down, then upsmash. Even if the explosion is right inside of Bowser or if it hits the ground, you should be fine, it also works with blast boxes when standing directly next to them, and the hitbox on that explosion is HUGE. The way shellguard works, as far as we can understand, is that any hitbox that touches it will be nullified. It works on anything, as long as the hitbox touches the guard, it's sorta like an amped up Hylian shield.

So when an opponent is above you, they basically don't have a safe way to hit you as long as you're up smashing properly, even high priority moves and disjoints like Space animal and link Dair won't touch you. You can also just upsmash villager on it's rocket if it tries to fly over you.

also @ Mr. Bones Once while I was near the ledge, I hit a mac that was landing, and he did a counter against my upsmash, the momentum from the counter carried him offstage and he died. I kinda felt bad about that and gave him a stock, but it's something worth noting for sure. If you're near the ledge, and positioned correctly, then you can just up smash mac in the air, especially if he's out of jumps. If he counters himself off the side then it's the same as if he haymaker'd. Lol

Also, where the mac match-up is concerned, though this is important for every match, but knowing the spacing for his roll will make dealing with his movement so much easier. If you know where to place yourself to be in the optimal position to punish rolling either on reaction, or just to have the option covered while throwing out your pokes then his roll forward will be nullified. Also, I really have to mention how great the tip of firebreath is. It's basically a windbox that deals damage, and the push effect on it it pretty subtle and can take a stock away from anyone that's not aware of what's happening, and if they use their recovery move, the pushbox will not reset them, just be careful about them brushing against the part of the flame that deals hitstun.

 

[MrEh]

Punishing rolls should be second nature to all you Bowser mainstays. Mash UpB.

Against Mac, I just try and powershield everything and punish him. I know it's bad advice to just say "LOL POWERSHIELD EVERYTHING", but it's the only way to punish some of his stuff baring spot dodges. A lot of his armor moves ARE telegraphed quite hard, so powershielding them is actually believable if you train yourself to do it.

I do think this matchup improves a lot if you use Dash Klaw, since you have a way to play around armor.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Powershielding is actually easier in this game, it seems. At least for me. So I guess that's where a lot of my advantage comes from against Mac.

also @ Mr. Bones Once while I was near the ledge, I hit a mac that was landing, and he did a counter against my upsmash, the momentum from the counter carried him offstage and he died.

I've done this twice. It's pretty lulsy. Even if he doesn't go off stage, the cool-down time is just long enough to punish after blocking with our upsmash.

 

[B!squick]

Punishing rolls should be second nature to all you Bowser mainstays. Mash UpB.

Against Mac, I just try and powershield everything and punish him. I know it's bad advice to just say "LOL POWERSHIELD EVERYTHING", but it's the only way to punish some of his stuff baring spot dodges. A lot of his armor moves ARE telegraphed quite hard, so powershielding them is actually believable if you train yourself to do it.

I do think this matchup improves a lot if you use Dash Klaw, since you have a way to play around armor.

So basically it's impossible online?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

So basically it's impossible online?

How bad is lag for you online? If it's really bad, it should be the same for Mac. You could probably rush him down.

 

[CrazySolaire]

People dont know how to use Mac properly which gives Bowser (and any Top/High Tier character for that matter) free regin to wreck in for glory mode against them

 

[-Kagato-]

Another thing to take into consideration for those of you having trouble with Little Mac: The Circle Pad. I don't know about the rest of you, but to simply chase Mac offstage without worry of Circle Pad John coming in and punching you in the **** is just something I can't do. This is especially true against really good Mac players. In the heat of the fight, my thumb could slide the circlepad JUST the amount needed to turn that f-air or b-air into a d-air or u-air. As a result I've been forced to wait on the ledge and firebreath to build more damage in hopes on hitting Mac hard enough to kill him outright later. The same can be said for going after all characters off-stage, but Little Mac is a special case since unlike other characters, he has no aerial defenses. The two he does have are the two needed for his recovery.

I can see the Little Mac matchup start to get significantly better on the Wii U for not just Bowser, but for several characters because of the use of GCN controllers being available again. The controls will favor those with aerial options, which is something Little Mac will never have regardless of 3DS or Wii U.

So for those of you (like me) having trouble gimping mac after he's offstage, just wait one more month and everything will start falling into place.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Another thing to take into consideration for those of you having trouble with Little Mac: The Circle Pad. I don't know about the rest of you, but to simply chase Mac offstage without worry of Circle Pad John coming in and punching you in the **** is just something I can't do. This is especially true against really good Mac players. In the heat of the fight, my thumb could slide the circlepad JUST the amount needed to turn that f-air or b-air into a d-air or u-air. As a result I've been forced to wait on the ledge and firebreath to build more damage in hopes on hitting Mac hard enough to kill him outright later. The same can be said for going after all characters off-stage, but Little Mac is a special case since unlike other characters, he has no aerial defenses. The two he does have are the two needed for his recovery.

I can see the Little Mac matchup start to get significantly better on the Wii U for not just Bowser, but for several characters because of the use of GCN controllers being available again. The controls will favor those with aerial options, which is something Little Mac will never have regardless of 3DS or Wii U.

So for those of you (like me) having trouble gimping mac after he's offstage, just wait one more month and everything will start falling into place.

Good news is that if you have the stock lead, you can go for the down air spike double suicide. You will feel so boss.

 

[Action Kazimer]

Recently some of the game's faster characters have started tap dancing all up and down my ass in Glory. I've taken my fair share of Greninja, ZSS, and Sonic out, but some clever ones have been giving me trouble.

The other night in particular, I was fighting a Sonic who's gameplan was as clear as day. Typical forward B > UAir, Homing Attack shenanigans. I could plot out everything he was doing but I just couldn't get a punish off. I could catch his dashes with fire breath, but knocking him out of spins seemed really inconsistent. Sometimes Ftilt would connect, sometimes it would clash. Sometimes Fortress would connect, sometimes it would clash. Anytime I reset the situation I either got out-jabbed (including on my grab attempts. Didn't try to shield grab enough here.) or snagged and tossed.

ZSS and Greninja are more or less the same story for me. I get grabbed too often and let them have their way with me in the air. I constantly underestimate Greninja's USmash coverage. Again, I feel I can pretty reliably jump-in fire breath on their zoning, I just have a hard time landing any hits that are worth a damn.

I know one of my big issues is misreading and getting grabbed too often. Any general advice for fighting the quickies in the game though?

Weirdly enough, I've had little to no issue with Captain Falcon. I've had some SUPER close and awesome fights, but I've never felt straight outclassed.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Fighting the faster characters (with or without projectiles), you're going to need some patience and keep your mental game up. Keep in mind that those characters benefit a lot from any input lag, so For Glory probably isn't helping. You just have to be more clever and patient.

And if you get a stock lead, don't approach. There are some people who will literally drop out/KO themselves before they approach you if you have the lead. Lol.

I would just do the silly ledge-run glitch if I got the lead and punish their approaches. Being a patient Bowser has always been pretty decent in Smash. Patient Bowser(s) in Sm4sh 3DS are a force to be reckoned with.

Don't underestimate dash->stop->grounded Fire Breath. People don't use grounded Fire enough. It comes out just as quick as it does in the air I think? And it can punish spot dodges or push them away if they stay in shield.

 

[The TaBuu]

ZSS is a pretty brutal match-up for Bowser.
Her stun shot will punish any rash ground approaches from Bowser while Nair can shut down an aerial Bowser, or even an Usmash under Bowser can do the job. ZSS can also punish a Bowser who's too defensive as well. Her grab can capitalize on Bowser's for throwing up shield way too early on an approaching ZSS.
The only hope Bowser has is playing a strong neutral game and only taking the advantage when you can convert the hits into a KO or manage to hold strong stage control. HIs disjointed hitboxes on the ground can clash or shutdown approaches from ZSS (i.e firebreath, ftilt, jab)

 

[S_B]

I'm finding a good Link gives me a HELL of a hard time.

If he's good about spamming arrows and bombs, you'll have a difficult enough time getting in to start with. But once you've closed, not only does Link have a ranged grab but his sword has some decent range on it and its disjointed nature seems to cause it to win out against Bowser's attack instead of clanking.

Also, why the HELL doesn't Bowser's down+B have SA on it? Seriously, three smashes later and we STILL can't get SA on that damn move...

 

[S_B]

I would just do the silly ledge-run glitch if I got the lead and punish their approaches. Being a patient Bowser has always been pretty decent in Smash. Patient Bowser(s) in Sm4sh 3DS are a force to be reckoned with.

By patient, I assume you mean waiting for a good opening, correct?

Because projectile campers still very much force Bowser to approach...

I've beaten DHs and beaten Bowsers AS DH (who I enjoy playing here and there). The real trick is to ensure that, whenever they try to get around you, don't give them an easy time of it. Up-B OOS was great in Brawl and it's even more awesome this time around because it pulls players in and it OCCASIONALLY dumps them out the side of the move tripped. I've managed to F-smash someone who took a moment to figure out what was going on, here...

But yeah, bottom line, keep the pressure on. Don't let DH set up his fortress of camping because it's gonna be CRAZY hard to break him out of it once he's in and if he knows how to keep those cans hopping.

 

[Mr. Bones]

I'm finding a good Link gives me a HELL of a hard time.

If he's good about spamming arrows and bombs, you'll have a difficult enough time getting in to start with. But once you've closed, not only does Link have a ranged grab but his sword has some decent range on it and its disjointed nature seems to cause it to win out against Bowser's attack instead of clanking.

Also, why the HELL doesn't Bowser's down+B have SA on it? Seriously, three smashes later and we STILL can't get SA on that damn move...

Link is not bad. I still just shield-run to close the distance and stay about a "hookshot" in length away from him to bait his moves out. Our jab actually clashes with his, and our Ftilt clashes with a lot of his sword swings too. It's about timing. I normally don't try to clash though, I just bait his attacks/rolls and pivot f-tilt or push him away with Fire.

Down-B would be damn broken in this game if it had Super Armor. It already auto-breaks most shields if people don't perfect shield it. Lol. Also it's still a really useful Edge Guarding tool when you Down-b to the ledge. If you don't out-right kill them before they grab it, you ledge trump them and get the opportunity to pressure them from the ledge more.

By patient, I assume you mean waiting for a good opening, correct?

Sometimes. It depends on my mood. But to be honest, perfect shielding is so easy in this Smash, it honestly doesn't bother me.

If I have the lead, they can camp me forever, but I'll win when the time runs out. This isn't something I do when playing seriously or in a tournament. It's basically something I do on For Glory or with friends to train my patience in competitive play, which is when I am being patient to wait for openings.

I haven't lost to a DH yet. He's surprisingly easy to pressure and you're right: that's the most important thing when playing campy folks. Stay in their face and fake them out. Bowser's legitimately frightening in this game and anyone that has an itchy trigger finger for the roll can be punished easily. In higher level play where the opponents aren't as fidgety, it's all about using your jabs, fire, and pivot options to poke and prod them and play the war of attrition.

As far as the Up-B trip, I always Up-B immediately again. It's super safe (if not guaranteed?) and just adds more damage.

Once they're offstage, it's balls to the wall for me. I love playing the offstage game with Bowser. It's really no problem for you to fly off, smack your foe and come back with Bowser's amazing recovery.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Sorry for the double post but we should probably sticky this or at least make a conscious effort to try to use it more instead of making a lot of new posts about MU questions.

Jay's gonna have a stroke.

 

[Hitman JT]

Bowser vs. Sheik is currently my most hated match-up. I can deal with (Toon) Link, ZSS, Rosalina, Duck Hunt, Yoshi, Little Mac, etc. just fine but Sheik and those damn needles give me cancer. I approach from the air, I get juggled. I play patient, shielding the needles and working my way in, I get grabbed.

 

[Flayl]

Doesn't fortress beat out homing attack? I think it does but I haven't done so recently.

 

[Raiden mk-II]

I remember Fortress winning over Sonic's Spindash attack. It seems to be a 50-50 thing, since sometimes his Spindash wins over my Fortress.

 

[Action Kazimer]

I remember Fortress winning over Sonic's Spindash attack. It seems to be a 50-50 thing, since sometimes his Spindash wins over my Fortress.

It felt pretty 50/50 to me. Wonder if it's a timing thing.

 

[EarthenPillar]

I Ftilt that spindash.

My problem still lies with King Deedede. I can't figure out how to apply mixups and setups with Gordo Throw coming out every corner. It seems to be the answer to a lot of things Bowser can do for an approach and punching it isn't good against those who block it. It's tough enough that this MU is heavy on heavy and that King Deedede has better zone coverage with his Smashes and an arguably better dash attack, the Gordo alone takes away Dair/Firebreath setups.

Perhaps fortressing offensively is the key?

 

[Anragon]

I Ftilt that spindash.

My problem still lies with King Deedede. I can't figure out how to apply mixups and setups with Gordo Throw coming out every corner. It seems to be the answer to a lot of things Bowser can do for an approach and punching it isn't good against those who block it. It's tough enough that this MU is heavy on heavy and that King Deedede has better zone coverage with his Smashes and an arguably better dash attack, the Gordo alone takes away Dair/Firebreath setups.

Perhaps fortressing offensively is the key?

DDD smashes are slow as f*ck and his dash attack is the most telegraphed move on earth, he should only use it on hard reads or to punish predictable landings.

Approaching a smart DDD is though but the best way to approach him is still the usual Dash -> Perfect shield -> Reaction. Don't fire breath against him, he has Gordos and range to deal with it. If customs are allowed, Koopa Klaw is the perfect move to use on reaction when you see him about throwing a Gordo (it will send back the Gordo and hit DDD at the same time, dealing loads of %).
Don't abuse Short Hop F-airs against him, he will just F-tilt/D-tilt on block.

Poke his his shield with D-tilt/Jab and force him to jump or use a move you can punish straight away with Fortress. When he is in the air, it is your time to shine and catch him with Pivot Grab or F-air/B-air. If you push to the edge, you are able to wreck him to no-ends since his air mobility is garbage and his get-up options are easy to predict/react to.

But hey, i'm saying this and that like it sounds easy on paper. Actually, DDD can really abuse you with his range and follow-ups (dat Jab cancel -> Grab -> D-throw is a nightmare). So getting close to him can a real pain in the *** if he's smarter than you and knows how to deal with Bowser.

 

[EarthenPillar]

I'll definitely change my game against King Jammies there and try that out what Anragon suggested first. I guess there's very little to do besides playing a bait and reaction game and focus on punishing/blocking gordos from a safe distance. Once I have him in the air i'll begin my game. Perhaps the bad of my play with Jammies is due to my lack of air game this time around... I can't believe I'm saying this, but I really miss that nunchuck analog stick!

 

[Netherfall]

Is Rosalina/Luma really just reactionary and baiting punishes the entire game? Aside from grounded fire and maybe a jab or two, getting in seems difficult if not nearly impossible with proper Luma management. If Luma is gone, Rosalina isn't a problem grounded once you get the shield time down for her moves, but going aerial seems suicidal unless you retreat fair or hard read dair. Has anyone had any successes dealing with a good Rosa/Luma and if so, how did you manage it?