Ashunera’s Library - General Discussion, Q&A and Index

[Heartstring]

Oh? I like the sound of that. It sounds learnable. What are some tips then, I'm bad a predicting things...

yeah basically what palpi just said, grab yourself an opponent and see what they do in certain situations, the classic example in brawl is when snake uses d-throw on them, they can roll either way, get up attack or just get up, yuo have a similar situation whenever they are on the ledge (but they have more options from the ledge) and when they trip, i try to mix up what i do, but i bet i actualyl follow a pattern, the uk's no.1 is amazing at reading, i swear its at least 2 predictions before i manage to get away from him by thich time yoube already taken a quarter of the damage needed to kill you with an u-tilt (yes im referring to snake)

i have no idea how to teach this though, see what someone reactino is to certain things you do i suppose and then take advantage of it from tehre

 

[san.]

Ike can roll away from snake from dthrow, where snake can't do anything except dash attack or boost grab.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ike can roll away from snake from dthrow, where snake can't do anything except dash attack or boost grab.

Or roll away from anyone else for that matter (G&W, Ganon, etc).

 

[Nysyarc]

It would falsely lead you to believe that Ike has a good roll. He just has a good roll from a downed position I guess. Still not a good idea to always roll backwards, even if there isn't much that most tech-chasers can do against it.

 

[YagamiLight]

Ike has really good "situational escape options." For example, when downed by any character such as Snake or Ganondorf the rolls he has let him escape almost every follow-up. In addition to that, his get up attack is also very good and sometimes even combos into itself. His tech roll is also good.

That's all fairly obvious. But what people might not know is that Ike has a very solid standing grab release. To state an example, when Squirtle grab releases any non-DK/Ness/Lucas character he gets a one frame advantage that allows him to get a free jab off. To the best of my knowledge Ike and Luigi are the only ones not hit by this nonsense.

On the downside, however, are his anti-juggling options. Patient opponents can easily annoy you in the air as there isn't a whole lot you can do about it. Also his air release is pretty shoddy, but that's not too bad considering only Yoshi and Snake can force an air release. And Yoshi suxxxxx.

 

[Iofsauron]

One of the most important things is mind games though, like Snake. Alot of Ikes ive seen at local tourneys abuse their jabs and throws to try to spike. Thats not going to happen, especially since Ike has so many counters. You HAVE to play mind games.

Experience is really the only way to get better

This is a huge part to IKE again, since he has so many counters. I couldn't agree anymore

 

[Ussi]

Ike has Olimar and Marth to almost counter him, MK is a hard counter. Everyone else is workable.

Experience works for all characters, it's simply a player thing.

 

[Iofsauron]

Ike is easily gimpable for MK basically if you get gimped once o, you basically lose. I dont see how its even possible to beat MK as Ike, Ive never seen it happen, so id probably play Snake against MK, my other main.

 

[Ussi]

MK is a hard counter for a reason... Its not gimp you once you lose, its impossible to avoid the gimp that you lose...

 

[Iofsauron]

Yeah thats basically true

 

[Mr. Doom]

Ike is easily gimpable for MK basically if you get gimped once o, you basically lose. I dont see how its even possible to beat MK as Ike, Ive never seen it happen, so id probably play Snake against MK, my other main.

I don't think that Ike is easily "gimpable" for MK. Play your cards correctly and plank as hard as ever. (Plank the right way, though) And I have beaten MKs, none that you are familiar with, though. But they are good in their own right. I just made the matchup even harder in Kansas. Discouraging, but I really don't care. lol

I would play Snake, but it gets boring pretty quickly. But I really need to go in with the mindset of timing people out.

 

[Palpi]

Beating Mk's at your skill level is the hard part.

 

[theeboredone]

Mr. Doom is probably the exception to the rule, but what Palpi says is true. 90% of the time, you're not beating an MK with the same skill level as you in a set. The more skill level the Ike player has, the tougher the match up becomes IMO.

Casual Ike Player vs Casual MK Player = 60/40 Ike
San vs MK Player on San's level = 20/80 MK.

 

[san.]

MUs don't depend on player skill. We already assume each player knows the matchup. I think it's no worse than 30:70 myself, and I don't think it'll ever get any worse than that from what I experienced. That's the absolute worse I think. MK has no 0-100% CG or anything like that.

 

[theeboredone]

MUs don't depend on player skill. We already assume each player knows the matchup. I think it's no worse than 30:70 myself, and I don't think it'll ever get any worse than that from what I experienced. That's the absolute worse I think. MK has no 0-100% CG or anything like that.

A player can know the match up, but skill is an extraneous variable when it comes to execution.

 

[Nysyarc]

MU ratios at a casual level would be ridiculously hard to pin down, considering casual players think Ike is broken just because they run into his Fsmash all the time. For competitive players who know the match-up and are of the same skill level, I don't think the match-up would become any harder for more experienced players.

A mid-level competitive Ike player might not be as good at mixing up recovery and reading/predicting, but a mid-level MK player may not know any effective ways of gimping and might use very repetitive tactics. A high-level Ike player would be very good at spacing and playing safely against MK, so even though the equally experienced MK player would know a few more tricks and be more smart about mixing up his approaches/punishing options, it would still be the same match-up ratio (or very close to the same).

 

[da K.I.D.]

That second paragraph is not true at all.

 

[san.]

MUs should not consider anything below high levels of play, where each character does what they're supposed to be doing. Different characters have different skill plateaus and difficulty curves at different levels of profiency with said character, so lower skill levels between characters are often unnecessary to compare.

 

[Palpi]

I personally think most Ike's are above mid level, but are just crippled by a weak character and the 'top' ikes take him to a new level.

and nysyarc, i agree with da kid, match ups DRASTICALLY change from mid to top level of play.

I also agree with what san posted.. match ups are made upon near, to perfect play. The best of this char vs the best of another.

 

[san.]

Sadly, I think most Ikes are just not that good

 

[Palpi]

A character with less options in easier to play. That is why low tier characters are more easily picked up, so maybe Ike's at a mid level of play are harder for people at equal skill because of the learning curve.

 

[san.]

You serious, Palpi? *facepalm*

Character difficulty has nothing to do with how good the character is. Some movements/options are easier to perform than others, regardless of character. Some just happen to be better than others.

 

[Palpi]

I didn't say that..if it came off that way, then my mistake.

I basically are trying to prove that match ups are in fact different depending on skill level. This may be because that character progression is easier with one character (for example as state before; a low tier).

Thought it a failing argument or...point to prove because it nearly impossible to determine equal skill when its not at the top of a character play.

 

[san.]

Oh, ok. I focused too much on your first sentence, which stuck out to me, because I think difficulty curves are independent to how good the character actually is, something I disagree with you on.

I think I understand what you're getting at now, mentioning possible plateaus for certain characters at mid levels of play may give skewed results compared to what we may know how the character is played when used properly.

Because MUs are so wacky when they aren't being played correctly, it's easier to just assume that they are and base opinion on MUs from that, adding in personal experience, and maybe theoretical possibilities.

About midlevel Ikes, from what I see from looking/playing against them, there are just so many things where I'm just like ....*lowers head*.

 

[Nysyarc]

I wouldn't say they change drastically. A mid-level MK player is still at an advantage to a mid-level Ike player. Anyways I don't really like MU ratios because they don't tell you anything you need to know about the match-up and they start stupid arguments because of their inherent vagueness. Case in point, our current conversation.

Based on the backwards logic of MU ratios, it can be argued that there are only 3 types of match-ups: Even, guaranteed win, and unwinnable. If MUs are based on top-level players of the exact same skill level, then even a 55-45 MU is unwinnable for the disadvantaged character. Think about it, if the disadvantaged character wins, the only argument is that he was a better player, and therefore they were not evenly skilled. We can't assume luck played any role because that would be using a variable and we can't have that in fixed ratios.

Obviously no two players in the world are the exact same skill level, and there are thousands of factors that play into how well a player will perform on a given day at a given time, so to even use that as a basis for MUs is dumb. Discussing match-up strategies is productive... ratios just give comfort to people who need to see numbers and serve no other purpose as far as I'm concerned.

/rant

 

[Palpi]

I got thinking on what I said a few days ago when ripple said that he plays Roy because Roy has less options. Melee Marth has more options, each being used for its own specific situation. Roy would be easier to pick up because of his lack of good options.

A low tier characters options are more universal because the other options are much worse. Pichu pretty much has 1 good move, nair. Marth has all of aerials OoS, some tilts etc. I know that is an extreme example, but even for on the offensive most low tiers have 1-3 moves but the top tier characters have much more, so it is much more to learn. I am sorry for most of what I am saying not making sense, its hard to explain.

 

[san.]

It makes sense, I just wholeheartedly disagree, lol, for multiple reasons. Being aware of 1,2,..,n options is only 1 small level towards understanding a character imo. The difficulty of being able to perform these actions at a masterful level with proper spacing/timing, etc (creativity, strategy against opponent, stage control, etc) is in my opinion much more important.

I also think it's a very limited view of looking at things, too. I disagree with the way you think the number of options work for each character among other things, too.

All imo. Feel free to disagree

 

[YagamiLight]

I don't know about the whole "lower tier characters have less options" thing. I mean, look at Yoshi or Sonic. They have a lot of options for a lot of situations (excluding shield for Yoshi) but none of them are really "good" or anything. I find that better characters just seem to have a handful of options that are simply good per situation.

Also what would you say is the main thing people do wrong when playing as Ike, san? Although I should probably hurry up and get AIM so I can have deeper convos.

 

[Palpi]

I know I am over..stereotyping low tier characters. I understand it doesn't apply to all, and when I explained I was using Melee as an explanation, though in a previous post I said brawl marth and mk.

And san, does my ike make you face palm? haha

once i get back from the beach we need to train!!!! sooo tuesday night!!

 

[san.]

@Light


For mid-level ikes, It's because I base my gameplay around being safe, when I see things that don't/shouldn't work or weird decisions, it just irks me.
The biggest thing for me is following up after attacks, especially aerials. I see them try so hard to get a grab, but do nothing with it at all once they get one. I also see random whiffs a lot of the time, especially offstage. A lot just lack general knowledge about brawl. Bad spacing sometimes, messing up an input sometimes, etc I can understand though, but sometimes people just do stuff they should've learned a long time ago not to do lol. I don't even want to start with offstage.

@Palpi

tbqh only like a very few Ikes even impress me lol. However, I do enjoy seeing people learning from mistakes/get better when I play them. Often times when I'm playing Ikes, I don't care much for the result as I am curious what they do in certain situations.

 

[global-wolf]

Hi there! I've been lurking this thread for a while now. I second Ike because he's really fun to play, and I enjoy fighting for my friends. I'm a really horrible player, the kind that probably makes San facepalm and more. But I'm improving

Imo what determines a character's "difficulty" is how much precision you need with them. Tech skill, right move choice, spacing, etc. But I don't have any experience, so I can't really say.

 

[san.]

Nah, it's all good. The only thing I learned as I got better with Ike is pure experience in specific situations, and remembering what worked, may have worked, or didn't work. Along with moveset application/stage control. Getting experience is tougher than it sounds, though.

 

[Palpi]

I know I am not very good, but I think I am confident to say I am a mid level ike. hehe

funny how I use Ike and Roy. fire emblem!!!!!! Roy is really fun, but he just gets ****ed up by like 5-6 characters 80-20.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hah, I'm not a meer mid-level Ike!

I'm a terrible-level Ike! :D

 

[YagamiLight]

Your comment about being safe actually made me think for a bit, san. I went ahead and rewatched a video and then realized that most of the actions I caught being punished for were ones that were not profitable in the long run anyway. Pointless grabs, pointless moves off stage (both on offense and defense), and pointless haphazard attacks.

That's pretty eye opening to me, actually. All this time I had labored on the idea that if I got hit it's fine since it's only a jab combo or so away from being back in the game. But now I realize that I could just not get hit the first time and after the jab string I'll be 20% ahead of the game.

This is, as you said, something I should have figured out a while ago. It's definitely something that I see now, though. I'm definitely going to concentrate on being as safe as possible from now on.

You have my thanks!

EDIT: As safe as possible WITHOUT swiftching to Falco, haha.

 

[Nysyarc]

tbqh only like a very few Ikes even impress me lol. However, I do enjoy seeing people learning from mistakes/get better when I play them. Often times when I'm playing Ikes, I don't care much for the result as I am curious what they do in certain situations.

I enjoy playing against you in dittos because you're amazing at reading all my habits and mistakes, and even though I'm not the best at adjusting my play style on the fly, it really sobers me up. A bunch of guys at my local smash scene say I have the best DI in the region now, I pretty much never die before 150%, since gimps are rare, and I learned to DI properly from playing you.

I'm also getting better at jab canceling Jab 1 repeatedly (I used to only be able to do it twice and then I'd be lost in the timing) and reading my opponent based on what they do to escape the jabs, another thing I picked up from you. I still have to work on my habit of falling straight at my opponent from the air instead of resetting my spacing. That's one thing you always punish me for and yet I usually have to eat two or three jabs after an air dodge before I catch on.

 

[theeboredone]

So I'm back from college. Almost was about to play wifi...then I didn't after reading comments on some dude's ladder profile on how the person "should have" won.

 

[Palpi]

usually after the 2nd jab, if they DI moderately, they will be out so...beyond that isn't THAT useful.

 

[Ussi]

Playing with the wii mote and chuck on wifi can give you some lulz.

@Bored there will always be those people who take wifi seriously and think that the other guy was lucky about wifi and when it helps them its their own skill for adjusting to wifi better.

@Character learning time vs How good a Character is

DDD and G&W, boom you got two good characters with limited options. their limited options are just THAT good.

Ike takes time to learn proper timing of his attacks and having keen spacing. After that it's just jab, nair, fair, bair, and the backside of usmash being used. throw out aether and utilt to be anti aerial and uair to frame trap air dodges at times..... and a ftilt when you are out spacing someone

on a side note, running off the BF platform to an aerial is sooo good. Walk of dair hits the guy at the ledge. Walk off uair has a continuous hitbox there.

 

[Meneil]

@Character learning time vs How good a Character is

DDD and G&W, boom you got two good characters with limited options. their limited options are just THAT good.

Ike takes time to learn proper timing of his attacks and having keen spacing. After that it's just jab, nair, fair, bair, and the backside of usmash being used. throw out aether and utilt to be anti aerial and uair to frame trap air dodges at times..... and a ftilt when you are out spacing someone

I agree with Ussi ;o

A lot of characters are very linear, ie they have limited options and yet those limited options are so good that it makes them good. It doesn't matter if you have one good option vs five bad or mediocre options; that one option will always be a better punish. After experience with MUs, a player can predict when/what they'll get punished with after they make a mistake. Like DDD's grabs - if Ike makes a mistake, a minor mispaced attack, he will get grabbed. Even though a player should obviously try not to get grabbed by DDD, and does everything he can think of to not get grabbed, DDD's grab is so good that eventually the Ike will make a mistake and get grabbed.

Imo Ike is easy to pick up for casual play. Great killing power, range, and heavy weight makes him harder to kill. But he's not so great or easy to play once you get to higher levels of play, since good players won't conveniently run into a charged fsmash/usmash or let the player recover so easily. So instead Ike's game evolves into "condensing" as much as he can and being as efficient as possible, with things such as nair and jabs; being faster and harder to punish. The player must be tactical about u/fsmash instead of just hoping the opponent will make a stupid mistake. So imo Ike is harder to play at high levels of play. .-.