Apex 2015 Ruleset is out! Survey inside!

[Foozal]

Link for reference: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/74563582/Apex/Apex2015_Rulebook.pdf

Disagree with the ruleset? Fill out this survey! http://goo.gl/forms/QFfKLJlaof
Survey Results: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1-a...FlnJI5Y9Z7Wmto/viewanalytics?usp=form_confirm

Apex Facebook page (So we can discuss on their page as well): https://www.facebook.com/apex.series?fref=ts

Summary of Stage Popularity:

Spoiler

Most popular stages for SINGLES
85% - 100%:
- 97% - Final Destination
- 96% - Battlefield
- 93% - Smashville
- 89% - Town and City

70% - 85%:
- 74% - Lylat Cruise
- 74% - Duck Hunt
- 73% - Delfino Plaza
- 71% - Kongo Jungle 64

50% - 70%
- 63% - Halberd
- 54% - Skyloft
- 54% - Castle Siege

40% - 50%
- 48% - Wuhu Island
- 44% - Miiverse (If it gets patched in before Apex 2015)
- 43% - Pokemon Stadium 2

Most Popular Stages for DOUBLES
85% - 100%
- 92% - Final Destination
- 86% - Battlefield

70% - 85%
- 83% - Smashville
- 78% - Town and City

50% - 70%
- 66% - Kongo Jungle 64
- 63% - Big Battlefield
- 63% - Duck Hunt
- 61% - Lylat Cruise
- 59% - Delfino Plaza
- 51% - Halberd

40% - 50%
- 47% - Skyloft
- 46% - Wuhu Island
- 40% - Pokemon Stadium 2

I've decided to include the rule set here to make it easier:

Spoiler

VI. Super Smash Bros. for Wii U

A. Game Settings
● Stock and time are set to 2 stock and 6 minutes for Singles
● Stock and time are set to 3 stock and 8 minutes for Doubles
● Custom Fighters are set to off
● Mii Fighters are legal. Each setup will have a 1111 Mii
Brawler/Swordsman/Gunner available for use (Using Default A Mii).
No other specials for Mii Fighters will be allowed. Players are not
allowed to transfer existing Miis to a setup.
B. Stage List

Starter Stages
● Battlefield
● Final Destination
● Smashville

Counterpick Stages

● Castle Siege
● Delfino Plaza
● Duck Hunt
● Halberd
● Kongo Jungle 64
● Lylat Cruise
● Town & City
● Omega Stages*

* Treated as Final Destination in banning phase. If Final Destination is
banned, Omegas are banned and vice versa

C. Additional Rules

● Stage Striking: The player with port priority strikes one stage from
the Starter Stage list. Then the other player strikes one stage and
the remaining stage is used for the first match.
● Stage Clause: You cannot counterpick a stage that has already
been played on in the set.
● Stage Bans: During the stage ban phase, the player who won the
previous game may ban 2 stages from either the Starter of
Counterpick lists.
● Bowser Jr’s Clown Car Glitch: If the Bowser Jr.’s Clown Car Glitch
happens, players are to pause the match and call a TO or a referee
over to confirm the glitch has happened. Once confirmed, players
will reset the match to the same stocks and get as close to the
percents as they had when the Glitch took place. (The Bowser Jr.
Clown Car Glitch happens when the car respawns after using Up B
right before the player loses their stock. The character starts to
teleport around, also hit boxes and animations for Bowser Jr.
change.)
● Red and Blue are to be used as the two team colors during doubles
matches.

UPDATE! Thanks to the work of @Jigglymaster , the rule to Mii Fighters has been modified! They now have some viable sets! :

Spoiler

For anyone actually curious as to why they've made this change is because Mii Fighter's customs are available from the start and are on anyone's Wii U. By locking them into using either 1111, 2222, or 3333, they've effectively split 1 character into 3. Mixing and matching are not allowed so there cannot be any cherry picking for the best bits.

We're currently in process of getting the same done for Palutena, the only hard thing about that is that she has to have customization turned ON for hers to work. So we're trying to settle things out with that. As for Mii Fighters, we now have

Brawler A
Brawler B
Brawler C
Sword A
Sword B
Sword C
Gunner A
Gunner B
Gunner C

So what do I like?

- Mii fighters are in!
- 1111 only...understandable but makes them not very viable...

- Omega Stages count as final destination (a given)
- Kongo Jungle 64 and Delfino Plaza are legal stages!

- When counter picking a stage, you have many options to pick from

- Any glitches (Bowser Jr.) would be dealt with effectively

What I didn't like:

- 2-stock 6 minutes
- People will get aggressive, but are more likely to play it safe because dying once = you're on your last stock
- Leaves no room for come backs, no time to adapt to the opponent

Summary of your opinions
- Brawl is 3 stocks but Sm4sh is 2 stocks? What is this!
- Really conservative stage list...why have it where you can't play the same stage twice? At least Dave's stupid rule makes sese...
- No customs is a bummer but makes sense, The Standard Custom Moveset Project is still in its early days and Apex rules were probably decided on pretty early on
- 1111 Miis? Well no one's gonna use them anymore Praise @Jigglymaster !
- Halberd's in but Skyloft/Wuhu isn't? Halberd's claw has way more cheese than anything Skyloft or Wuhu can dish out
- People have mixed feelings on Suicide Moves (Ganoncide, bowserside ,etc..) giving you a win despite what the scoreboard says...It's been like this in every other smash game however

 

[Pazx]

Stage list is pretty bad. 3 starters is awful, no Skyloft is awful. I wouldn't mind seeing PS2 and Wuhu in there as well, but picking Delfino and Halberd over Skyloft is completely beyond me.

 

[OddCrow]

There's a note about self-destruct moves going to the initiating player, regardless of results screen. It mentions that each game will have notes for specific moves, but there are no notes any where.

If bowser's side-b gives a win regardless of results screen, that's an awful rule.

 

[deepseadiva]

Dumb.

I guess, uh, have fun Apex players.

 

[Pazx]

There's a note about self-destruct moves going to the initiating player, regardless of results screen. It mentions that each game will have notes for specific moves, but there are no notes any where.

If bowser's side-b gives a win regardless of results screen, that's an awful rule.

That's been a rule for a very long time, what is your issue with it?

Also, 5 starters for Brawl? This is ridiculous.

 

[Foozal]

Stage list is pretty bad. 3 starters is awful, no Skyloft is awful. I wouldn't mind seeing PS2 and Wuhu in there as well, but picking Delfino and Halberd over Skyloft is completely beyond me.

Yeah the arm in Halberd just ruins the stage...Honestly at least it's still apex and we'll still see some really nice gameplay from good players...as long as cheese doesn't get involved

 

[LwYz.Ph.]

So, SSB4 singles is 2 stocks meanwhile Brawl will be 3 stocks... got it.

 

[shapular]

That's been a rule for a very long time, what is your issue with it?

Also, 5 starters for Brawl? This is ridiculous.

My issue is that those moves were patched specifically to make the initiator lose last stock (except for Ganondorf). Some characters can even survive Bowser's side B so it doesn't make sense.

Brawl has been 5 starters for a long time.

I'm a bit disappointed in the ruleset. I wanted 3 stock, and Skyloft and Wuhu Island. But Apex is going to be unprecedented levels of hype regardless. I can't wait.

 

[Foozal]

So, SSB4 singles is 2 stocks meanwhile Brawl will be 3 stocks... got it.

I just blame Mashpotatoe Samurai for making for glory 2-stock...but then I just thank Manpower Segway for making this game anyways....yeah apex rules are silly.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

and so Mii's were forever banished to obscurity.
Whatever hope there was.

 

[Yikarur]

1111 Rule on Mii Fighter doesn't make sense at all. I kinda understand that they want the set-ups being complete from the start but they should've solved it differently.
The suicide rule doesn't make sense at all for Smash 4. They need to change this.
I don't like Stage Clause + 2 Bans. You can barely choose any stages in the latest game of Bo5.
Some rules are badly worded. They didn't take much effort in the wording.
Lol @ forced character rule, why even mention this? And no rule on random selection.
Lol@ Brawl being 3 Stocks while Smash 4 is 2 Stocks wow


This ruleset has few loopholes and some arbitrary decisions. I hope people won't influence their ruleset too much of it.

 

[Pazx]

Yeah the arm in Halberd just ruins the stage...Honestly at least it's still apex and we'll still see some really nice gameplay from good players...as long as cheese doesn't get involved

Halberd is undoubtedly a legal stage, but Skyloft is undoubtedly as good if not better than it. My comment was saying "I can't believe they didn't include both", not "Halberd sux lol"

My issue is that those moves were patched specifically to make the initiator lose last stock (except for Ganondorf). Some characters can even survive Bowser's side B so it doesn't make sense.

Brawl has been 5 starters for a long time.

I personally didn't think the decision to make the initiator of suicide moves the loser was a good move by the dev team, I can't really see a strong argument against the person taking the action being the victor as they achieved a KO through their own actions. Brawl having 5 starters while Sm4sh only has 3 is very strange to me.

1111 Rule on Mii Fighter doesn't make sense at all. I kinda understand that they want the set-ups being complete from the start but they should've solved it differently.
The suicide rule doesn't make sense at all for Smash 4. They need to change this.
I don't like Stage Clause + 2 Bans. You can barely choose any stages in the latest game of Bo5.
Some rules are badly worded. They didn't take much effort in the wording.
Lol @ forced character rule, why even mention this? And no rule on random selection.
Lol@ Brawl being 3 Stocks while Smash 4 is 2 Stocks wow


This ruleset has few loopholes and some arbitrary decisions. I hope people won't influence their ruleset too much of it.

Well spotted, DSR in combination with 2 bans on a 10 stage list is... awful.

 

[Yikarur]

The Suicide Rule is the globao smash rule.
They should reword it to "if a suicide move results in sudden death [...]"
This way Smash 4 is unaffected and ignoring the results winner is the worst thing you cold do..

 

[Radirgy]

Every game but smash 4 gets full stock number. Good going Apex, that isn't unfair at all.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I don't see what makes Lylat a starter in Brawl but not Smash 4.

 

[Clade]

2 stocks lmao

 

[M@v]

I prefer 3 stocks but I'm ok with 2. Its super appealing for a large tournament to use 2 stocks if it can because it means (in theory) a shorter, easier to run event.

The head scratcher for me is only 3 neutrals. Should have Town and City and either Lylat or Duck hunt as the 4th/5th neutrals.

 

[Nequ]

I don't see what makes Lylat a starter in Brawl but not Smash 4.

It's simple: In Brawl, LC was just a weird different version but a nice addition to Battlefield, while YI was the Same for FD (if FD was banned for ICs, go to YI). But Smash4 doesn't have a counterpart to YI since this stage went for the 3DS Version. Maybe TC would do the same not really, so they went into the '08 Brawlstarter.

 

[Chuva]

1111 Miis is such a bummer

 

[Raijinken]

The good:
Omegas included.
Decent counterpicks.
Miis allowed.
No glitching. Hah. And people told me "we don't cater rules to balance the game".
No stalling.
Lylat not starter.

The bad:
No Customs. Seriously. Just use this. Thus, Miis are... probably not going to have a strong showing.
Pathetic starter stage list, issues arise with characters favoring that setup, etc. See other threads by AmazingAmpharos for details.
Old boring stage selection rules.
Passive nerf to defensive playstyles due to the stalling clause. I wonder if spamming clay discs or TNT counts as "not approaching" for Duck Hunt players?

 

[Jabejazz]

>Delfino is allowed
>Skyloft and Wuhu aren't

ayyyy lmao

 

[M@v]

Wuhu is way worse than Delfino. I can't defend banning Skyloft though.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Now that I think about it I really haven't seen many 3 Stock Smash 4 Tournaments. 2 Stock is a nice change of pace. Let's try it at Apex imo.

It's simple: In Brawl, LC was just a weird different version but a nice addition to Battlefield, while YI was the Same for FD (if FD was banned for ICs, go to YI). But Smash4 doesn't have a counterpart to YI since this stage went for the 3DS Version. Maybe TC would do the same not really, so they went into the '08 Brawlstarter.

Town And City and Duck Hunt both kinda work as pseudo-FD's really, or hell, even Smashville does. Lylat and BF are similar, FD and SV similar, just throw TC in to give a mixture of the two.

 

[ZHMT]

Do people not realize how dumb Skylofts blast zones are? I'm glad its not legal, it shouldn't be.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

-> Smash 4 at 2-stocks
-> Brawl still at 3-stocks

Wut

And man I feel for Mii/Palutena players. Do you suppose the Apex guys have heard of Ampharos's custom system?

 

[Asdioh]

Do people not realize how dumb Skylofts blast zones are? I'm glad its not legal, it shouldn't be.

I would love the stage if it didn't have the same crap Pilotwings has with stuff hitting you as you fly by it. Except it's even worse on Skyloft because it hits you while you're on the stage. http://puu.sh/dt3op/00bb7218e5.webm
How bad are the blast zones though? I haven't noticed anything too peculiar, but I haven't played on it a ton.


I thought it was already known Apex would be 2 stocks... but after seeing 5 for 64, 4 for melee, and 3 for Brawl (why is Brawl even being played when Smash4 is similar to Brawl but better in every way imaginable, I will never know)
Honestly if time constraints are a real issue they could easily remove a stock from ANY of those games and add it to, you know, the new game, which should honestly be the main event (besides Melee because it's still so big and well-loved)

And man I feel for Mii/Palutena players. Do you suppose the Apex guys have heard of Ampharos's custom system?

I wonder how many of them actually play the game. Why are there less starters than Melee or Brawl, when this game has the highest number of legitimate stages in any smash game? They could easily move Lylat/Duck Hunt to starters, or better yet, get rid of starters/counterpicks completely and just have an allowed/banned list like suggested here.
Although you'll get no sympathy for Mii, I'm glad I don't have to bother learning anything other than their 1111 sets for the first national tournament early in the game's life.

 

[smashbroskilla]

I won't be participating in Apex but I'll be watching all youtube and streaming footage. Why the hell 2 stocks? I think because the game is still early so people are playing more defensively from the get go. When I play online with friends we go with 3 stocks. I've had matches where someone is ganked in the first 7-10 seconds. When the meta develops a little more and people feel more comfortable I think you will see 3 stocks. I partially blame Nintendo for making for glory 2 stocks. Jesus I hope they patch in letting us change it to wtf we want to.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I'm honestly not too surprised they chose 2 stocks. Not having Skyloft is weird though but will agree there's points on that stage where you can get hit by the stage itself. They really didn't play test their stages despite more than half the stages being full of hazards or walk offs anyways.

 

[Diamond DHD]

This ruleset is awful, if it stays like this, rip in piece smash 4 competitive scene.

 

[Funen1]

I won't be participating in Apex either (I'm actually moving out of NJ in early January lol), but I have to wonder how much of an impact their 2-stocks and no-customs rules will end up being for the scene at large. If 64, Melee, and Brawl get to keep their usual stock amounts, why should Smash 4, the newest and freshest of the bunch, be limited to 2 stocks when it hasn't yet been proven that 3 stocks would be too much of a burden on either the TOs (total time running the event) or individual games (too many matches going to time)? Custom moves I could still see as being a logistical issue if the Apex people haven't seen AA's project or something. Who knows. Maybe I'm being too much of a worrywart, but I'm concerned that people all over are gonna start citing Apex as a "reason" to not deviate from 2 stocks and no custom specials in the future. I'll certainly try to talk to the people in the local scene where I'm moving to about it, at least.

Stages I'm actually not as "worked up" about since I'm a supporter of full-list stage striking, which could be considered too much of a sudden change for such a big tournament. I can at least understand why Apex would stick with the starter/CP distinction for now. Though I, like others, disagree with there being only 3 starters.

I also have a question about their stage clause. The way I understand it, if a set were to go to five games, would there only be two stages left to choose from (after 2 bans for each player plus 4 stages already played)? At least the most recent loser can still pick a stage in the last round, I guess? :V

 

[LancerStaff]

Absolutely horrible ruleset. Rather not of had SSB4 instead of the botched ruleset, and not just to be spiteful either.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm less than pleased with the ruleset and I get the distinct impression that the Apex bigwigs are scared to try new things. Plus some rules simply don't make sense. 2S3M when Brawl is 3S8M? Yes, that makes sense, not. At least doubles is 3S8M, I guess.

The stage list is inexcusably small. Skyloft and Wuhu Island are glaring omissions, and 3 starters is laughable especially when Lylat Cruise (a Brawl starter) and Town & City (the lovechild of a menage a trois between Battlefield/Final Destination/Smashville) are relegated to the counterpick list because...reasons, I guess? Consistency please, that would be nice.

Actually, you know what? Time for some data. Let's assume the value of a transforming stage (Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, Wuhu Island) is directly related to the number of good/bad transformations. Let's define a "good" transformation as one that lacks walkoffs or water and a "bad" transformation as having either or both. I base these definitions on how walkoffs and water are both frequently cited as problematic aspects of stages and transformations.

Delfino Plaza: 1 good, 8 bad (9 total)
Skyloft: 6 good, 5 bad (11 total)
Wuhu Island: 2 good, 7 bad (9 total)

(Source: My own threads. Delfino Plaza/Skyloft/Wuhu Island)

By these metrics, Delfino Plaza is actually the worst of the 3 transforming stages since it has the worst ratio of good:bad transformations. Yet it's the one that's legal, I suspect solely because it's a returning stage, a known quantity, and the "safe" choice.

Ugh. I'm really kind of upset over this and I want to print out copies of my stage threads and drop them in a dramatic fashion the desks of the Apex bigwigs and make them see reason.

Customs being banned is similarly disappointing but since Amazing Ampharos' custom moveset project only very recently got its first version released, I'm willing to give it a pass since I'm almost certain the rules were being decided on quite a while ago. Miis being restricted to 1111 makes sense in that context since otherwise they would have an advantage due to having an actual selection to choose from. Forcing everyone to use the Default A Mii likewise comes across as trying to keep a standardized play experience without having to deal with variables. It's also just easy logistics to ban custom Miis.

On a less angry note, I note they have a Stage Clause instead of DSR, where you basically can't play on the same stage twice in a set ever. Intriguing. I'm also unsure of the reasoning behind forcing Red/Blue as team colors in doubles, can anyone explain?

If I'm being honest, the main reason I dislike the Apex ruleset so much is because I am absolutely certain that other, smaller tournaments will play follow the leader without stopping to consider that other stages might be valid, custom moves might not be bad, and Miis don't need to have a single size forced on them. And I believe that would be an utter tragedy and artificially stagnate the metagame.

 

[HeroMystic]

Can't say I mind two stocks. The Come Up tournament was at two stocks and it was pretty amazing regardless. I do believe though that three stock is looking more viable considering how much more offensive the game is becoming.

I find it more unfortunate that Customs are off, but understandable.

The starter list is displeasing but... honestly, everyone goes to Smashville anyway. So it's not a big deal to me.

 

[Roukiske]

In terms of reading your opponent, don't forget in games like Street Fighter pros need as little as 1-2 rounds to know their opponent. In for glory (ya not a great example), I can somewhat get a feel for the opponent within the first 2 stocks most of the time. Just a thought. I'm kind of in between the 2 or 3 stocks debate at the moment. Sometimes its too short, sometimes its too long.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can't say I mind two stocks. The Come Up tournament was at two stocks and it was pretty amazing regardless. I do believe though that three stock is looking more viable considering how much more offensive the game is becoming.

I find it more unfortunate that Customs are off, but understandable.

The starter list is displeasing but... honestly, everyone goes to Smashville anyway. So it's not a big deal to me.

Regarding stocks, I likewise don't really care either way but I find it very strange that they're playing Smash 4 with 2 stocks when Brawl is at 3.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Custom restriction on miis is lame.
Hell most Brawlers can live with soaring Axe kick though losing the KO option of heli and piston sucks but no one wants to play with head on assault. Foot flurry is good and feint is great. Head on + Axe is such a drop in efficiency.

I don't think we'll see Miis.

 

[SageEnder]

I really think they went with the 2 stock is to try to make sm4sh more in line with alot of the more general fighting game,

Killer instinct, injustice among other all have 2 life matches,
I actually really like the stock set up but i wish they made groups best of 5 instead of best of 3

 

[Nidtendofreak]

And the conservative stage list community gets their way as per usual.

So stupid.

 

[HeroMystic]

Regarding stocks, I likewise don't really care either way but I find it very strange that they're playing Smash 4 with 2 stocks when Brawl is at 3.

It's mostly due to tradition. Brawl's an old game, and it's always been three stocks for the past six years. Smash 4 is still in the experimental stages.

 

[Lazyboy0337]

Does Inhale count as a suicide move or no since Kiry/DDD lose stock first?