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Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

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Ripple

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SSF4 is a different game then SF4. It just happens to be very similar to, but better than SS4, which is why everyone plays it and not SF4. But we're not talking about a new game here, we're talking about altering the game to balance it.

Regardless of that, I still go back to my original point, even if we do make an arbitrary change like that and it turns out great. Why should we make this one and not others? And how do we decide which changes are needed (does it have to be needed to even be changed)? I think ISP or an alternate ruleset would be far more interesting than 1.1 damage and both could improve the meta too.
1st point. you can not call SSF4 a completely different game while calling 1.0>1.1 an alteration. they are either both different games or both alterations

2nd. we are gathering information for a case against the 1.0 standard. if you want something else. YOU gather the information YOURSELF and present the case. I'm not doing it for you. I am simply saying 1.1 is more balanced than 1.0 AND THAT'S IT. I said nothing about any other DR or ISP
 

da K.I.D.

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'Free' damage chaingrabs, low percent (to possibly death) uair/nado juggles by Meta Knight, infinites, seem to all be removed with just this one "arbitrary" proposal for change.


All those things are also removed by learning not to get grabbed within in most cases, pretty specific damage perameters, and learning to SDI effectively.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND-yi3IPKXM#t=00m50s

that in my opinion obliterates any and all rufio johns for the rest of time.

also, to the person who asked why I play falco now.
number 1, I still main sonic and play him more than falco in tourney.
number 2. I play falco because my add doesnt allow me to play one character for the entirely of a tournament. I have seconded like 10 characters in tourney since brawl came out. even in my first tourneys I was sonic/lucario. but none of my other characters ever worked out the way my falco did when I first started trying him out. thats why I play him now, has nothing to do with the fact that hes a top level character or w/e. Ive played MK, DDD, Ics, pretty much everyone but snake and marth. and falco fit me the best.
number 3. the only reason I have the falco icon on my name right now, is because sonic board people have been pissing me off lately and falco board people are way more chill atm. but I do like how you just assume things.
 

Jim Morrison

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Regardless of that, I still go back to my original point, even if we do make an arbitrary change like that and it turns out great. Why should we make this one and not others? And how do we decide which changes are needed (does it have to be needed to even be changed)? I think ISP or an alternate ruleset would be far more interesting than 1.1 damage and both could improve the meta too.
Stop twiddling your thumbs with these minuscule attempts at getting people to answer these types of questions as it is clear that they are unanswerable by any one individual. I apologize if that came out as rude but I tend so see posts like these as cheap cop-outs from putting forth some effort to make the playing situation (obviously not perfect...) overall more improved for the community in a quick, yet efficient manner. 'Free' damage chaingrabs, low percent (to possibly death) uair/nado juggles by Meta Knight, infinites, seem to all be removed with just this one "arbitrary" proposal for change. Why not pursue knowledge on ^ this instead of focusing on questions that will obviously change nothing in the long run?

There were countless people (like yourself) who were too busy philosophizing about what an acceptable competitive standard should be in the MK threads, which from my observation only further contributed to the procrastinating nature and outcome of said topics (although the BBR didn't really budge either from my perspective) because attention eventually deviated from the main issue and onto those and other ultimately unrelated topics. What I'm saying is...try to focus a little less on these "larger than life" type of questions and more on what would obviously have a shot to turn out best for the community/competitive play without outright changing the overall layout of what has been accepted by the majority of the community as standard play like ISP clearly would.
 

da K.I.D.

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also, Id like to say that SF4 to SSF4 is in NO WAY comparable to changing the kb ratio in brawl. that Is an absolutely god-awful comparison for a multitude of reasons, that i really shouldnt need and dont at the moment have the drive to get into at the moment.


People that only know things about other games by hearsay shouldnt bring those games into conversation here, just makes you look ignorant.
 

Judo777

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1st point. you can not call SSF4 a completely different game while calling 1.0>1.1 an alteration. they are either both different games or both alterations

2nd. we are gathering information for a case against the 1.0 standard. if you want something else. YOU gather the information YOURSELF and present the case. I'm not doing it for you. I am simply saying 1.1 is more balanced than 1.0 AND THAT'S IT. I said nothing about any other DR or ISP
Normally i agree with you ripple and ur post is still fairly valid. However i do believe that it is valid to say SSf4 is a different game while 1.1 is an alteration. SSF4 has different character, different moves, different stages (which i know doesn't matter) and different properties compared to SF4.

1.1 Just has different damage and knockback (which i guess would be properties but its not significant property changes). Everything else is the same.

Most importantly the changes made to SSF4 were not uniform to everyone unlike the changes in 1.1.
 

The Cutting Edge

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I've played this and I've read the refusal to change comments and I'm like wtf? Everything changes but there's so little change. OH NO! 2.5 years of 1.0 metagame will be ruined!!! No. It's still the same game and almost nothing changes. The way Smashers panic over change is pathetic.
 
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Normally i agree with you ripple and ur post is still fairly valid. However i do believe that it is valid to say SSf4 is a different game while 1.1 is an alteration. SSF4 has different character, different moves, different stages (which i know doesn't matter) and different properties compared to SF4.

1.1 Just has different damage and knockback (which i guess would be properties but its not significant property changes). Everything else is the same.

Most importantly the changes made to SSF4 were not uniform to everyone unlike the changes in 1.1.
I think you are forgetting the context in which this comparison was made. I no longer remember who made this point, but it was simply that the player can feasibly adjust to large changes two years after the fact as evidenced by the SF4 community's move en masse to SSF4, which is very different from the original game. Brawl and (S)SF4 weren't even really directly compared, only the communities that play these games.
 

theONEjanitor

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1.1 is interesting

but so is standarized item play

and lightning brawl

and brawl +

the point is, we can do whatever we want to a game

there will always be a best character, whether it is MK or not.

l2play the game. change your skill level, not the game
 

Cherry64

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Well this actually fixes things like linking jabs etc.
Linking jabs is not a problem. Ike is one of the few that can do it really well, most others can be DI'd easily enough.


But I still enjoy this 1.1 version, it's different, and yet the same. Maybe we can get a thread in each char board about this for discoveries revolving around characters. It would also shed more light on this subject.
 

Ripple

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But I still enjoy this 1.1 version, it's different, and yet the same. Maybe we can get a thread in each char board about this for discoveries revolving around characters. It would also shed more light on this subject.
I'm working on a post that contains all known differences so far

theONEjanitor said:
1.1 is interesting

but so is standarized item play

and lightning brawl

and brawl +

the point is, we can do whatever we want to a game

there will always be a best character, whether it is MK or not.

l2play the game. change your skill level, not the game
terrible argument is terrible. maybe if you read what this concept was actually about, then I would feel like giving you an educated response
 

The Cutting Edge

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So I went back to 1.0 on wi-fi for a short while, and dod gamn. EVERYONE LIVES TOO LONG. It's so bad. I never want to 1.0 ever again.
 

The Cutting Edge

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Going from 1.0 to 1.1 seems like a small change, but going from 1.1 to 1.0 is such a bad move. Stale moves in 1.0 has too much of an effect on the game. It punishes you for hitting someone with a kill move. One time I was Lucario vs a Fox on wi-fi and I got usmashed 4 times on Smashvile, from 80% - 130% with only a few other moves mixed in. I just wouldn't die. He should really deserve that kill for hitting me like that. Stale moves has less of an effect in 1.1 because when you hit with a kill move, you're more likely to get a kill and the extra knock back helps negate the move staling.
 

BSP

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I don't see anything wrong with 1.1, and it does remove some of the effects of stale move negation. I like it more than 1.0.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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while you guys are diddling around with the settings people are actually improving and beating MK's with other characters. I love this 3 character metagame.

Shout outs to Esam, ADHD, Rich Brown, Nick Riddle, Zucco, Junebug.

But keep ****ing with the settings because you have trouble with MK. ****ing man up and improve you game instead of winning begging and looking else where for improvements. It's not the game it's not the character it's you.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Don't get this thread locked because of your stupidity thanks.
Sorry mangz, I just reject any type of modification to this game. I get tired of people crying and proclaiming they already know the metagame of brawl. WHen it's been around for 2 years if we use melee as any indicator of how a metagame can shift. I'm almost positive no one gave Jigglypuff a shot nor did anyone think people could do what she did until hungrybox and amarda starting ****** with those characters. Until then people thought Marth fox falco Sheik and Falcon was the only viable characters. Hell even the results people but up in nationals at brawl (haze, esam, nick riddle, various others) proves this also.
 

The Cutting Edge

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The Problem with comparing Melee metagame and Brawl metagame is that one of them isn't patheticly limited.
 

Ussi

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You do realize many MKs don't even learn MUs just do the same thing in general cause it has been working. Now they have to start learning MUs like the rest of us :x But still not as many as we have to learn.
 

The Cutting Edge

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youre right, at least brawl isnt limited to only 6 usable, viable characters.
Seriously? That's a bummer. I'm having such a blast with those 6 characters making the craziest stuff happen. Oh well. I guess I can dsmash, up b, and hit the b button like I don't give a **** to win in the other game. This sounds AWESOME! Or I can stall for 8 minutes.
 

rathy Aro

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Stop twiddling your thumbs with these minuscule attempts at getting people to answer these types of questions as it is clear that they are unanswerable by any one individual. I apologize if that came out as rude but I tend so see posts like these as cheap cop-outs from putting forth some effort to make the playing situation (obviously not perfect...) overall more improved for the community in a quick, yet efficient manner. 'Free' damage chaingrabs, low percent (to possibly death) uair/nado juggles by Meta Knight, infinites, seem to all be removed with just this one "arbitrary" proposal for change. Why not pursue knowledge on ^ this instead of focusing on questions that will obviously change nothing in the long run?

There were countless people (like yourself) who were too busy philosophizing about what an acceptable competitive standard should be in the MK threads, which from my observation only further contributed to the procrastinating nature and outcome of said topics (although the BBR didn't really budge either from my perspective) because attention eventually deviated from the main issue and onto those and other ultimately unrelated topics. What I'm saying is...try to focus a little less on these "larger than life" type of questions and more on what would obviously have a shot to turn out best for the community/competitive play without outright changing the overall layout of what has been accepted by the majority of the community as standard play like ISP clearly would.
I think by avoiding my questions, you are the one "copping out." I don't think that these answers are unanswerable, I think they are difficult to answer and would require us to take step back and figure out what it is we want to do, what are we willing to do, and what can practically be done. Once we answer those questions as a community we will be able to solve any problem the current meta has fairly easily and quickly.

1.1 would change the game pretty fundamentally as opposed to adding an item that heals 5 percent if you pick it up. =/ I also think that if more people were clear about the real advantages and disadvantages of ISP they would be more open to it, after all the main reason we set items to none was lost when brawl came out.

Lastly, you may not like my questions, but you never actually gave a good reason as to why they aren't relevant.

edit: @WoodyWiggins: Learning a new ruleset would be far easier than learning a new metagame.

@ripple: When I say a new game, I mean it in the sense that it was a separate game released separately from SF4.

And I don't really care for any change. I'm fine with the meta as is, but as I said earlier in this post, it would be easier for the community to make a change if it new exactly what it wanted.

@SFP: SF4 to SSF4 is a lot more like Melee to Brawl.

edit2: I was actually thinking about the answers to my own questions and I realize, the reason I appear to be against 1.1 is I feel like making a singular change is a contradiction in itself. Its like your saying that there's some value in keeping the game as close to its "original" as possible, but still saying its okay to change the game. I think my point is either ditch this idea that we can't change the game and go all out (therefore implementing everything that would make the game deeper and more balanced such as items and a better ruleset) or stick to the ideal that the game shouldn't change and leave it as is.
 

Ripple

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Sorry mangz, I just reject any type of modification to this game. I get tired of people crying and proclaiming they already know the metagame of brawl. WHen it's been around for 2 years if we use melee as any indicator of how a metagame can shift. I'm almost positive no one gave Jigglypuff a shot nor did anyone think people could do what she did until hungrybox and amarda starting ****** with those characters. Until then people thought Marth fox falco Sheik and Falcon was the only viable characters. Hell even the results people but up in nationals at brawl (haze, esam, nick riddle, various others) proves this also.
you have no idea what you are talking about.

we have not claimed to know the metagame of brawl. but like someone else said, this game is effectively limited by having no tech skill. and with that we can see that the metagame is stagnating.

you are wrong about jigglypuff and peach, ever hear of king? a soCal jigglypuff that has been playing since 05 and was the best jiggly for about 2 years. how about wife? a peach player that placed very well in teams with husband for 3 years always getting a top spot.

you have such a narrow view, only selecting the TOP placing player for those characters.

OUTLIERS DO NOT COUNT!

do you know why? if you only account for outliers then it says "you have to be the very best with your character to place well at a high level tournament? ESAM had only MK to play against all of MLG except Ally. what does that tell you? that this metagame is diverse? no, it skews percerption. it doesn't mean that any pika can do it.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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you have no idea what you are talking about.

we have not claimed to know the metagame of brawl. but like someone else said, this game is effectively limited by having no tech skill. and with that we can see that the metagame is stagnating.

you are wrong about jigglypuff and peach, ever hear of king? a soCal jigglypuff that has been playing since 05 and was the best jiggly for about 2 years. how about wife? a peach player that placed very well in teams with husband for 3 years always getting a top spot.

you have such a narrow view, only selecting the TOP placing player for those characters.

OUTLIERS DO NOT COUNT!

do you know why? if you only account for outliers then it says "you have to be the very best with your character to place well at a high level tournament? ESAM had only MK to play against all of MLG except Ally. what does that tell you? that this metagame is diverse? no, it skews percerption. it doesn't mean that any pika can do it.
You've stated multiple times that this was a 3 character metagame would you like me to bring up your post? It's nice to be able to say whatever the hell you want get called on it then change what your stance. Keeping on spinning.
 

Ripple

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You've stated multiple times that this was a 3 character metagame would you like me to bring up your post? It's nice to be able to say whatever the hell you want get called on it then change what your stance. Keeping on spinning.
I never changed my stance. if you care to point out how I contradicted myself, go right ahead. otherwise I'm going to inore you since you did not address any of my points
 

Dicey

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How about instead of posting over and over in this thread and trying to get everyone to follow along with our ideals, we just get better at the game that was made?
 

Ripple

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How about instead of posting over and over in this thread and trying to get everyone to follow along with our ideals, we just get better at the game that was made?

guess how you get better with ABSOLUTELY no downside? pick metaknight.

^^^PROBLEM right there
 
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