Adjusting the Damage Ratio to 1.1 for Balance

[•Col•]

The fact is, this is unlikely to ever become a reality because people who don't even know there is a competitive scene for Brawl generally use the default settings when it comes to things like damage ratio.

First off...... Why does that matter at all? If people don't realize there is a competitive scene for Brawl and aren't participating in it, then why should that affect our decision making for rules?

Also, until year 3-4 of Melee's lifespan, I always played with items on, and team attack off. The damage ratio change from 1.0 to 1.1 isn't nearly as dramatic as the difference between Items on and off.

 

[Ripple]

sorry but I can't resist.

DK's biggest problem is his lack of reliable KO moves

I'd link to a post but IDK how. its in the sonic forums.

and too bad the G&W match up thread was replaced, you could have seen how he said the G&W HARD COUNTERS DK on BF because of d-tilt hits DK under the platform

The fact is, this is unlikely to ever become a reality because people who don't even know there is a competitive scene for Brawl generally use the default settings when it comes to things like damage ratio.

this makes no sense. how are we changing the UNCOMPETITIVE scene?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I remember when A2 said Ike was bottom tier...

i believe his words were 'bottom 5 in the game'

 

[Ripple]

I remember when A2 said Ike was bottom tier...

i believe his words were 'bottom 5 in the game'

it was actually the other way around. I believe he said the most broken characters in the game wee snake someone else and ike.

anyways, I slept through class and am still here. MOAR DISCUSSION!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I remember when A2 said Ike was bottom tier...

i believe his words were 'bottom 5 in the game'

Your thinking of Inui.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Jigglypuff is also my Low Tier tournament main. That being said, she sucks in those too. Even just approaching a good Mario is ****ing impossible. (Hi vato) I can't even beat players whom I know I'm much better than (see: 3 stock in normal tourney) because of how much she sucks. And I play as gay as possible. If I get the % lead, I run away and plank. Once I get a stock lead, I'll float around forever and borderline-stall. The problem?

Getting the lead.

lol you're just not playing gay enough, and your main is Snake, a character who is very much "anti-spacing". Jiggs doesn't have trouble against Mario, and beats him if she gets the lead and camps on it. If you play "conventionally", of course you're probably going to lose. But Brawl promotes stalling since options to break good zoning are limited. Going by my experiences, I actually have played a Jiggs user irl who probably isn't as good as me in the matchup. Yet I can't beat him consistently. I'm not going to just buy your personal experience when you can't back up what exactly it is that's making you as a player lose.

Between Jigg's better spacers (F-air and B-air) and one of the best zoning destroyers in the game (Pound), getting the lead from someone like Mario, who has poor forward options and a subpar shield is not particularly hard. I'm pretty doubtful Mario actually beats Jiggs anymore to be honest. He can get better reward in trades, but if he's chasing Jiggs down, the matchup is clearly not in his favor. Jiggs also edgeguards him fairly well, so he's not infinitely durable against her either.

And for any Jiggs mains or users who are reading this, you included SuSa, I highly advise you guys to step it up. especially for 1.1, the Diddy matchup, or low tiers.

 

[HeroMystic]

Your thinking of Inui.

A lot of people said Ike was bottom five, not just Inui and A2. Inui was just the most vocal.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im pretty sure they both said that at one point. difference here is that inui is much smarter and better at the game and is far less of a douche these days, while A2 is still the same scrubby, terrible theory making, non placing, self assuming scrub he always was.

 

[SuSa]

lol you're just not playing gay enough.

I stopped reading after that. You can't play gayer than I do with Jiggs. But she is forced to approach a projectile user to first gain the lead. That's where the issue is.

I can't just sit back dodging all day at 0% vs 0%.... I need to get the lead first.

I play Jiggs like DMG plays Wario. I play to time your *** out.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If you claim it's impossible to approach Mario with Jiggs, you're doing something terribly wrong.

If he's facing forward, there isn't that much to worry about, and his fireballs are easy to PS from neutral stance. His he's facing backwards, don't bite his B-air. You can opt to crouch under it, whiff punish, Pound, point being that Jiggs has options. And she combos him better than the other way around.

Also a good Mario really shouldn't use fireballs much against Jiggs. Too unsafe at midrange.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Your thinking of Inui.

Inui says second worse.

A2 says bottom 5. I would know after who knows how many Ike MUs I attempted to go through with him interrupting. If you wanna see how bad it could get, look up some of the old Ike vs Mario MU discussions.

Like I've said for a while, and other people are realizing: he's worthless to listen to. It's like listening to me, but without facts, a remote ability to back down, or a sense of humor.

 

[SuSa]

Nid, I love how you're at least honest.

Even if you seem to throw out ANY theorycraft (some of it's legit, and most of my gameplay actually comes from theorycraft =\ I back up my theorycraft with actual gameplay... haha)

But I try to be careful with my theorycraft. I don't assume perfection in it, and I make sure to recognize both players options in given scenarios - and I add the human factor of prediction and mistakes, to some degree. (Add to much, and your theorycraft is rendered useless to be honest... )

But A2 is just pure theorycraft, and ignores any of the other sides' options and completely ignores the human elemant.

 

[KillLock]

Anyway I was just doing some random stuff on 0.9 and I found that while CG characters benefited extremely well(Falco, Dedede) other characters now have CGs, like C.falcon's down throw Marth's forward throw. With the lower knockback it also made it easier to link together attacks which I feel would increase for a more aggro metagame. Of course people do live longer so you'd have to find easy gimps or just find opportunities to get a smash in. Anyway I didn't do too much just thought I'd throw whatever out there while I fooled around with ratios.

 

[Cherry64]

Ratio's could be a new way to fix this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Nid, I love how you're at least honest.

Even if you seem to throw out ANY theorycraft (some of it's legit, and most of my gameplay actually comes from theorycraft =\ I back up my theorycraft with actual gameplay... haha)

But I try to be careful with my theorycraft. I don't assume perfection in it, and I make sure to recognize both players options in given scenarios - and I add the human factor of prediction and mistakes, to some degree. (Add to much, and your theorycraft is rendered useless to be honest... )

But A2 is just pure theorycraft, and ignores any of the other sides' options and completely ignores the human elemant.

You know, I actually play this game irl, even if it doesn't seem like it.

I wouldn't confidently state that Mario has trouble against Jiggs without actually playing that matchup. Your experiences seem really shoddy, when you're limiting yourself to a character you clearly have much less experience with, when someone like vato has infinitely more experience at spacing and mixups than you do in a specific matchup.

And I'm pretty aware of the human element. Reaction time, accounted for threats, and mixups are all part of my equation.

Mario's spacing can only do so much to wall Jiggs, and her damage output is slightly better than Mario's. When in neutral stance, Mario can either throw a fireball, or attempt to wall with a tilt/B-air. Tilts are unfavorable if they trade (may or may not happen depending on spacing), B-air is good except it's whiff punishable on reaction and can be crouch baited if done rising.

If Mario is facing forward, he has nothing to punish a spaced attempt from Jiggs. He will block. N-air and U-air generally will not reach Jiggs unless she tries a crossover.

If facing backwards, B-air is an option, although powershielding is sometimes necessary to punish good retreat spacing and even then depending on the situation, it might not be guaranteed. Mario however has MUCH less air mobility than Jiggs, which means Jiggs clearly has the baiting advantage, and baiting is a COMPLETELY legitimate strategy if you have good mobility and zoning threats like Jiggs does.

If Mario B-airs, either he spaces it just right and it hits, or if Jiggs baits it, then he gets punished and potentially comboed, which immediately makes him risk losing the lead. In a direct clash with B-air and Pound, Pound comes out on top or iirc trades favorably in terms of damage.

This is the way the matchup goes for me when I play it. Honestly I don't know what you're doing wrong. It just sounds like your spacing sucks from what you're telling me. Jiggs can legitimately bait Mario relatively easily into making a mistake that will get her the lead, and then the matchup goes in her favor. Even if Mario tries to not get baited, his shield only lasts so long and doesn't cover his head that well. Plus attacking Jiggs's shield is rather unsafe for Mario unless he perfectly spaces (implied commitment to fastfall spacing), since Jiggs has a better shieldgrab and F-air than he does.

 

[SuSa]

Ratio's could be a new way to fix this game.

I don't agree, although it does seem 1.1 does help with certain balancing of the game, it doesn't quite fix the problem. It just changes who the problem characters are...

Is completely ignoring A2

 

[HeroMystic]

I don't even know how Mario got into the discussion, but a lot of what A2 said about the MU is either wrong or has some large bias for Jigglypuff.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't even know how Mario got into the discussion, but a lot of what A2 said about the MU is either wrong or has some large bias for Jigglypuff.

I'd like you to explain which part of my irl experience in the matchup is wrong.

Main points:
Mario can't anti-air Jiggs consistently enough
Jiggs combos him better, and thus is fairly likely to actually get the lead on a correct read or bait
Mario DOES kill Jiggs better, but suffers a lot if he has to get back the lead since his forward options are balls and Jiggs's bait game is better.

And finally 1.1 favors good spacers that can KO.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Even if you seem to throw out ANY theorycraft (some of it's legit, and most of my gameplay actually comes from theorycraft =\ I back up my theorycraft with actual gameplay... haha)

It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction. Very early on I used too much theorycraft, and obviously I see people who rely on it too much. The lines between "just a little bit too much", "may seem like too much, but I have personal experience to back it up", "it may seem like too much, but all current data supports this train of thought", and "just right without or without experience/a solid train of thought" is very, very thin. A simple miswording can change how people see which side of the line your statement is on (like mixing up common phrases for power shielding and out of shield. ) . Though "Way over the freaking top" is painfully obvious.

For example: right now a large part of any 1.1 discussion is theorycraft. It kinda has to be, we've only had a very small sampling size for how things actually work. So for now, a reasonable amount of theorycrafting over who gets buffed and nerfed and who moves where in a tier list is fine. Saying something completely and utterly crazy like "This bottom 5 character is better than this top 10 character" is not, outside of something groundbreaking occurring with most testing.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'd like you to explain which part of my irl experience in the matchup is wrong.

I believe the match-up is even(ish), and if it wasn't, it'd be Mario's favor. Mario has more options and a larger margin of error. Jigglypuff has to be playing perfectly in order to "give Mario trouble" in the way you're describing her.

You're kinda grasping on straws and blowing things out of proportion. You did something similar to Ike (which is why all the Ike mains hate us now). For the most part your explanation is entirely one-dimensional and honestly I don't wish to pick it apart in this thread.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I think Mario has to be playing "perfectly" to actually anti-air Jiggs. I think Mario has to work harder to make sure he doesn't lose the lead, and once he does lose it, it's pretty much definitely Jigg's favor, while when Mario has the lead, it's pretty much a question of whether or not he can bait Jiggs into making a mistake that gets her killed before he can relax.

Jiggs doesn't need to work for a kill to ensure a safe advantage since she can outmaneuver Mario after percent lead, although granted, she does take longer to KO Mario, so most of her advantage will be racking up more damage to solidify a lead on the same stock. Mario has to read his way for a KO (against a character who has GOOD baits no less) to ensure safe advantage since at any moment he's not defending, if he whiffs, he's facing forward and combo bait. So thus I don't think Mario wins.

 

[SuSa]

It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction. Very early on I used too much theorycraft, and obviously I see people who rely on it too much. The lines between "just a little bit too much", "may seem like too much, but I have personal experience to back it up", "it may seem like too much, but all current data supports this train of thought", and "just right without or without experience/a solid train of thought" is very, very thin. A simple miswording can change how people see which side of the line your statement is on (like mixing up common phrases for power shielding and out of shield. ) . Though "Way over the freaking top" is painfully obvious.

For example: right now a large part of any 1.1 discussion is theorycraft. It kinda has to be, we've only had a very small sampling size for how things actually work. So for now, a reasonable amount of theorycrafting over who gets buffed and nerfed and who moves where in a tier list is fine. Saying something completely and utterly crazy like "This bottom 5 character is better than this top 10 character" is not, outside of something groundbreaking occurring with most testing.

I see where you were coming from, but I did expect reading over my Snake thread I referenced to before someone commented on it and my purpose behind it.

The line is very slim between them. But I always try to back up my theorycrafting with some personal experience (preferably tournaments - not just friendlies) and if I have no tournament showings of me using it, I make sure to apply it next time I'm in tournament.

For characters I say things, but whom I don't want to risk losing a tournament over, I'll prove it in friendlies through multiple people.

This is me showing my theorycraft of why poor matchup knowledge and letting Ganon have items makes him top tier:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k5vAlWhu34

I was purposefully only trying to abuse the bananas, and I had only picked up the technique of his glide toss like the day before (he actually has two distances, which messes me up when I do the far one on accident) but with some practice and me actually trying to play instead of abuse an item I could do far better.

However, due to Ganons moves being punished on reaction - this wouldn't happen in high levels of play... once they knew the matchup.

But, I backed up my theorycraft of Ganon with results. I also wanted to be Ganon when Dao was Diddy Kong for doubles to prove Ganon is actually viable in doubles but I never got to do so outside of friendlies. (Which we won most of, unless I played poooooorrrly and was getting gimped left and right)

 

[Dark 3nergy]

A2Z can you like stop with your horrible theorycraft and focus on other characters over loving jiggs and mario? This is a 1.1 testing the waters thread, not a full blown 'lets have a debate about mus in 1.1 as if it were important'

Spoiler

hint; 1.1 is still a pretty new and not totally accepted ideology

Thanks

 

[A2ZOMG]

My point is that 1.1 easily favors low percent combos that had trouble working at 0, and it also favors spacing moves that can be used for KOs (especially when edgeguarding). Those are basically two things that Jiggs gets a lot from (F-air KOs, B-air combos), and Wario actually loses some of his combos for example since a lot of his stuff basically already is supposed to work at 0, while the damage increases don't really do as much for him making his spacing and edgeguard oriented KOs noteably better.

And Snake also isn't the best character. He's high risk high reward, but he's not exactly that great at spacing, and edgeguard KOs in 1.1 are much more legit, something Snake has to fear very much, along with the nerf of C4 recovery.

As for Mario, renegade specifically mentioned to me about how Mario's U-air combos a lot better in this game, and it makes sense to me since Mario has combos that are sorta iffy at 0%.

 

[Wretched]

That ganon was wonderful.
but I don't think we should use other precedents of basic smash to judge the outcome of this

 

[SuSa]

along with the nerf of C4 recovery.

I'm not following.... =|

 

[Ripple]

And Snake also isn't the best character. He's high risk high reward, but he's not exactly that great at spacing, and edgeguard KOs in 1.1 are much more legit, something Snake has to fear very much, along with the nerf of C4 recovery.

And Snake also isn't the best character. He's high risk high reward, but he's not exactly that great at spacing,

but he's not exactly that great at spacing,

WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!


I'm through with this nonsense

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm not following.... =|

C4 extra damage is a nerf for recovery if you're a scrub or if you're out of range to stage tech, either of which of course limits the safe usage of that for recovery. And actually it's still a nerf assuming you still make it back stage, since of course the implied increased damage when you return.

Obviously it's one of those things that's kinda going to separate the best Snake players from others.

 

[SuSa]

It's a nerf if you're a scrub or if you're out of range to stage tech. And actually it's still a nerf assuming you still make it back stage, since of course the implied increased damage when you return.

Obviously it's one of those things that's kinda going to separate the best Snake players from others.

It's increased knockback, not damage. Just start playing Duelist more.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Which is a nerf in a way for recovery. C4 would kill sooner.

I wish I kept that quote I found earlier. Some combos exist in brawl to begin with, but 1.1 reduces even the ones that properly existed. More of a turn off for the game when people dislike the fact it has few combos to begin with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

WHAT THE **** ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?!


I'm through with this nonsense

Snake doesn't space. He just tosses a lot of grenades and he punishes failed and incorrect attempts to work around his stuff. He just punishes really really hard when you make a mistake and bite into one of his traps, but for actually invading someones zoning and threatening with his own, he doesn't do that by himself. Everyone and their mother knows where Snake can attack you and where they can avoid his spacing. The vast majority of Snake's strategy is punishes. There is a reason why various characters will attempt to get a percent lead on him and camp him to time. Only against characters with very limited zoning does Snake have true spacing options.

He can only effectively edgeguard bad recoveries for the most part, and doesn't really have the tools to stop you from moving as you please. Everyone can make punishes, and everyone fundamentally kills earlier on punishes. Not everyone however has the tools to ACTIVELY zone every area though, and that's something that other characters benefit significantly more from than Snake.

 

[Ripple]

I wish I kept that quote I found earlier. Some combos exist in brawl to begin with, but 1.1 reduces even the ones that properly existed. More of a turn off for the game when people dislike the fact it has few combos to begin with.

this is half true, f you had bothered to read some posts before you you would know that 1.1 also ADDS combos to certain characters.

 

[A2ZOMG]

^One of my mentioned points: 1.1 favors combos that had trouble working at 0%.

 

[KillLock]

If people want more combos, 0.9 is probably the way to go.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Well, the only thing to really do is to have some TO do something like this at a tournament. They did it with Brawl - and brawl +.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If people want more combos, 0.9 is probably the way to go.

0.9 also creates more moves that are unsafe on hit at low percents. Also Jab cancel combos benefit more from increased knockback (unless you reach tumble).

 

[KillLock]

0.9 also creates more moves that are unsafe on hit at low percents. Also Jab cancel combos benefit more from increased knockback (unless you reach tumble).

True, but I'm sure there's plenty of safe options that we can only really pin-point with actual testing, I assume just spacing would still be safe in most cases. I can see grabs as being a safe option as well, something like melee where you would usually start with a grab because crouch-canceling was a pretty decent factor early stock.

 

[Flutter NiTE]

If people want more combos, 0.9 is probably the way to go.

If people want combos, play Melee.

 

[A user name]

I may (probably) be crazy, but falcon didn't seem any worse to me...

 

[John12346]

Which is a nerf in a way for recovery. C4 would kill sooner.

Pretty much this. Every attribute of Snake's recovery is the same as before, except they'll launch you quicker. The timing for techs become more strict, and you'll likely reach the top blast zone sooner if you don't tech.

Also Susa accept my friend invite on MSN. I got pressing matters to discuss.