Social 7th Heaven - Cloud Social Thread

[HFlash]

I think to compensate, LB CS is still bonkers. This nerf sorta solidifies that you should never really use finishing touch. Plus, guys seriously, this nerf doesn't matter. Even if uair does less percent and KB, that indirectly means it combos better at lower percentages, and it still has amazing frame data with god like disjoint. I'm personally more than fine with the nerf.

 

[Shuriblur]

Is there a point for FT now other than style then?

 

[HFlash]

Not really, LB cross slash comes out quicker, and is much safer, all the while with the FT nerf, kills around the same time. Seems like the other top tiers (Zss and Shiek) got some pretty significant changes. Corrin also got some huge nerfs which were unmerited in my opinion (except the counter nerf, the knockback on that move was ********).

 

[~Skelly~]

So is a damage and knockback nerf to uair all we got? How much do we think this is actually going to hurt us?

We're checking to see if there's anything else, but for the most part, yes plus the nerfs to FT and Limit Charge. We will need to tweak our combos involving it a bit, especially since it'll be easier to combo with at lower percents.

I'm fine with this nerf. Now, if there's another patch and LB CS got nerfed...

Is there a point for FT now other than style then?

You can still catch people offguard with it. Just because it got a big nerf doesn't mean it's completely useless now. I'd stick with LB CS, though.

 

[Banjodorf]

We're checking to see if there's anything else, but for the most part, yes plus the nerfs to FT and Limit Charge. We will need to tweak our combos involving it a bit, especially since it'll be easier to combo with at lower percents.

I'm fine with this nerf. Now, if there's another patch and LB CS got nerfed...
You can still catch people offguard with it. Just because it got a big nerf doesn't mean it's completely useless now. I'd stick with LB CS, though.

Appreciate it. Wait, what happened with FT? DId they double the % it kills at?

 

[Chalice]

So right now we got:

- Falcon Uair treatment so although it ain't a kill move anymore it's a better combo move than it already was LMFAO
- Limit charge a second longer so now we gotta get off our assses and fight like real men instead of sitting there charging our Dongers
- Finishing Touch nerfed? Only means something in Doubles so IDGAF in Singles

Bad news?
- Uair ain't killing anymore at reasonable percents
- We ain't the best character in Doubles anymore
- We get Limit Cross Slash less often

 

[Shuriblur]

I'm fine with this nerf. Now, if there's another patch and LB CS got nerfed...
You can still catch people offguard with it. Just because it got a big nerf doesn't mean it's completely useless now. I'd stick with LB CS, though.

I rely on LB CS, don't get me wrong. Before though, I would try to throw out a FT if I saw an opportunity because it did kill earlier. I could just need more time with it, but I feel like there wouldn't ever be a situation to use FT.

Once again, could just need some time adjusting.

Edit: OOOOOhhh I wasn't even thinking of Doubles! That's probably why it got hit so hard with this nerf!

 

[~Skelly~]

Appreciate it. Wait, what happened with FT? DId they double the % it kills at?

Kill percent was increased by 20%. Both in the air and on the ground.

HFlash Actually, the Corrin boards are considering the damage reductions to Fair and Nair to actually be BUFFS since it means they can combo easier.

Shuriblur Don't worry, the patch has only been out for a few hours. We're all going to be adjusting to the new balance.

 

[GHNeko]

Uair still can kill. You guys are overstating the effects if uair nerf. You guys should be more bothered by it being less useful on shield. Lmao

Also FT is still good high up and above you.

 

[HFlash]

~Skelly~ Once upon a time, the Falcon boards thought the same thing about the uair change and proved in the long run to hurt falcon. Though, because fair/nair aren't kill moves for corrin, I can see why they think that.

GHNeko Was falling uair on shield really that safe? Prepatch I usually got punished whenever I did that.

 

[~Skelly~]

~Skelly~ Once upon a time, the Falcon boards thought the same thing about the uair change and proved in the long run to hurt falcon. Though, because fair/nair aren't kill moves for corrin, I can see why they think that.

GHNeko Was falling uair on shield really that safe? Prepatch I usually got punished whenever I did that.

Aye, I forgot about that. Well, only time will tell if if this helps or hurts Corrin in the long run.

As for falling Uair being safe prepatch, I have the same concern GHNeko . Got punished quite a bit as well using it.

 

[Chalice]

Falling Uair was safe only if you spaced it properly since the hitbox extends in front of Cloud.

It was also safe no matter what against ZSS shield grab so you didn't have to worry about getting grabbed into Uair Uair Up B.

Idk about now tho

 

[GHNeko]

It WAS +1 on shield when frame perfect. So spaced made it hard to punish

 

[ArcanaXIII]

Fsmash got nerfed......I don't think that needed to happen.

 

[Shuriblur]

DSmash and LB CS as well.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Rest in peace Cloud. You were a good solider

 

[CrimsonRick117]

So far the notes are

• Uair Early/Late Damage: 13/9.5 -> 12/8.5
• Forward Smash (final hit) KBG: 119 -> 115
• Down Smash (final hit) KBG: 96 -> 94
• Limit Cross Slash KGB 155 -> 153
• Finishing Touch KB: Reduced
• Time required to charge Limit is longer
  
  there's pros and cons to them, but overall it's not a big deal

 

[Lady Kuki]

Oh man. I really hope his nerfs affected his viability much. I was enjoying him as a secondary. D:

 

[ArcanaXIII]

Looking at the nerfs, I don't think they are THAT bad. If that's all it is, we just have a harder time killing. We still got our disjoints and frame data. Cloud is still good, we just gotta work a bit harder now.

 

[HFlash]

So there is talk that Cloud may very well be the best character in the game. The Shiek nerfs were pretty huge, and the only MU Cloud solidly lost.

The above post said it perfectly.

PSA: We still have a stupidly good uair and kill threat with CS. Stop crying.

 

[Strong-Arm]

It is a pretty big deal. It may not sound bad but in practice these will hurt him. We can act all we want right now like its not a big deal but lets be real. The percent changes make a huge difference in how early stuff kills and most of his kill moves were hit with it. Limit is a lot longer now to charge (7 seconds I believe) and overall he is going to struggle more to get kills and to get limit. He isnt "bad" now but he is definitely slapped by this patch. His life is going to be a lot harder now. I know my opinion isnt going to be popular, but we will have to wait and see. I just dont want people to get into denial (which is happening with sheik right now pretty da** hard)

 

[ぱみゅ]

I was pretty sure Cloud lost significantly to Bayonetta, who, if wasn't nerfed hard, will still be a problem for him.

Both of them would possibly be the best in the game if theory adds up as people seem to point.

5.99 crew I guess

 

[HFlash]

It's fine to have your own opinion lol. As long as you aren't disrespectful, it's fine. If you guys feel bad about the nerf, think about how bad Luigi and Diddy have been beaten to the ground .

I was pretty sure Cloud lost significantly to Bayonetta, who, if wasn't nerfed hard, will still be a problem for him.

Both of them would possibly be the best in the game if theory adds up as people seem to point.

5.99 crew I guess

What is your definition of significant? -1, -2?

 

[Strong-Arm]

For anyone keeping tabs on my Cloud (Ive gotten alot of messages from Cloud players and people wanting to pick up Cloud and asking me for advice) Im gonna stick with Cloud a little longer. I believe the nerfs were pretty big and will hurt him in the long run but I will have to test that in due time. Gonna give him a whirl for a few more weeks and see where things go with him. Ill keep anyone interested up to date with cloud stuff if they want, and even if I do drop him I can still give advice to anyone who would want it or would like it.

On another note this patch was huge and alot of people (myself included) are in a panic right now. So we should all calm down a bit for at least a week and see where all of these changes, buffs, nerfs, etc go in the long run. I do think the meta will change (up to you if you think its for better or for worse) but we will have to see over time. I predict Rosalina or Bayonetta taking the number 1 spot but again time will tell. I wish everyone (those who were hit by the patch hard or are saved by it) the best of luck in the upcoming weeks. This patch was jarring and im sure im not the only one who was and probably will be affected by it. Good luck everyone with their characters.

Side note to HFlash, I would never be disrespectful or spiteful towards anyone

 

[HFlash]

Strong-Arm Not gonna lie, you sound morbid as heck (most of the characters that got nerfed deserved it) and well, you play charizard lol. He looks much better with his buffs and some people are noting he might be..... somewhat viable. Also, with the ZSS nerfs, that's great for all heavy weights as she was sort of a gate keeper for them (she had a stupidly good MU vs them).

I would definitely say because this literally came out a few hours ago to not panic and see how things pan out. The changes this patch look promising as far as further improving the good balance Smash 4 already had.

 

[Shuriblur]

^Well this is true although Diddy's first patch was necessary imo.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Just very disheartened. Maybe everyone is being optimistic, or im just being pessimistic. I have a tournament tomorrow, Ill just see how things go I guess.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What is your definition of significant? -1, -2?

"At least -1", Cloud is somewhat kind of weak against Witch Time.

 

[HFlash]

Witch time is pretty busted. The threat of it makes it so that you can't do the typical walling out of aerials with Cloud. So far, my best answer to this is to shield alot and grab on the ground, and to bait out air dodges and WT when below her in the air. What else makes you think it's a -1 for Cloud?

 

[Tino]

It's not good to be too harsh either.
And I big to differ…

I ain't being harsh, I'm being honest.

And about the Cloud nerfs, it don't bother me one bit. I will still remain loyal to the SOLDIER no matter what.

 

[GHNeko]

It is a pretty big deal. It may not sound bad but in practice these will hurt him. We can act all we want right now like its not a big deal but lets be real. The percent changes make a huge difference in how early stuff kills and most of his kill moves were hit with it. Limit is a lot longer now to charge (7 seconds I believe) and overall he is going to struggle more to get kills and to get limit. He isnt "bad" now but he is definitely slapped by this patch. His life is going to be a lot harder now. I know my opinion isnt going to be popular, but we will have to wait and see. I just dont want people to get into denial (which is happening with sheik right now pretty da** hard)

what the **** lmfao

those nerfs are MINOR as ****.

losing 1-5 ponts of KBG means nothing.

ZSS got like 3 points off up B KBG last patch and guess what? Up B killed like 5% later. It was still just as effective before the nerf.

You're overstating the nerfs so much that it actually hurts.

Am I the only one here familiar with how much of an impact single digit changes to KB/Damage values will have on a character???? The Uair nerf is more significant than the LCS/Dsmash/Fsmash nerf lmao.

I was pretty sure Cloud lost significantly to Bayonetta, who, if wasn't nerfed hard, will still be a problem for him.

Both of them would possibly be the best in the game if theory adds up as people seem to point.

5.99 crew I guess

MU is still 5-5 at worst.


Ya'll are getting too down in the dumps holy ****.

 

[Strong-Arm]

what the **** lmfao

those nerfs are MINOR as ****.

losing 1-5 ponts of KBG means nothing.

ZSS got like 3 points off up B KBG last patch and guess what? Up B killed like 5% later. It was still just as effective before the nerf.

You're overstating the nerfs so much that it actually hurts.

Am I the only one here familiar with how much of an impact single digit changes to KB/Damage values will have on a character???? The Uair nerf is more significant than the LCS/Dsmash/Fsmash nerf lmao.



MU is still 5-5 at worst.


Ya'll are getting too down in the dumbs holy ****.

Okay, but no need to come off as so disrespectful.

 

[GHNeko]

If you think I'm being disrespectful, I'd like you to please elaborate.

Overstating the minor changes to KBG adjustments and acting in a fashion as if the character was hit extremely hard is straight up blowing things out of proportions while also showing a lack of understanding behind the values, and the tangible impact they bring.

 

[ultimatemaster]

If you think I'm being disrespectful, I'd like you to please elaborate.

Overstating the minor changes to KBG adjustments and acting in a fashion as if the character was hit extremely hard is straight up blowing things out of proportions while also showing a lack of understanding behind the values, and the tangible impact they bring.

totally agree

 

[HFlash]

So for reference, LB CS kills shiek in training mode from the middle of the stage at 80%. Oh yea, huge nerf. FT now kills at 67%.

Note: This is on training mode, on FD.

 

[GHNeko]

So for reference, LB CS kills shiek in training mode from the middle of the stage at 80%. Oh yea, huge nerf. FT now kills at 67%.

You forgot to post your reference percents lmfao.

Also, the KBG nerfs will scale with distance. Because KBG scales with percent.

So killing from the center will see the most impact, where killing close to the sides will see the least impact.

Most of time, LCS is landing away from center stage. As such, everyone who's trying to find LCS percents should also check the sides of stages as well as the middle so they can better gauge the effects of the nerfs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

TBF, Sonic got numerous -2 KBG reductions and his kill power is significantly lower, but I still think Cloud's Limit Cross Slash is much better than any of Sonic's kill moves.

And Bayonetta doesn't need a lot of things for the matchup being on her favor. She forces approaches with both Bullet Climax and Bullet arts, and only needs one well-placed Witch Time to finish a stock (0-to death's are difficult on Cloud, but still, she can kill starting 40 and has even weirder things with rage).

 

[GHNeko]

Cloud forces approach with Limit Break. And we both know which of the two is better at forcing an approach. V:

Also hitting cloud is not a pure loss for Cloud since he builds limit. So hitting him with attacks that dont flinch him in an attempt to make him stop charging limit doesnt work. It's better to try to make cloud not charge limit at all.

 

[Stylo Ren]

Hitcomfirm finishing touch was a huge kill option for me and so I'm actually pretty sad about that nerf, I'm gonna try and lab it tommorrow night to see how exactly bad the damage is and what I can do about it.

But, Honestly, the increased charge time on limit charge is a buff. It means we can paradigm shift in and out of camp-wall mode for longer, meaning our neutral is amazing for longer and our specials are usable for longer. Honestly, a good thing.

I'd like to know exactly how bad FT is, if possible, and what stages you are testing on. Could anybody test FT with varying rage on Smashville (platform and non platform) and aerial vs grounded (since I heard several people say that there is now a difference)

 

[GHNeko]

Charge Time nerf is a nerf lol.

It's great to have a positive attitude about it, but the only benefits that come out of it is that you can do limit cancel stuff for longer; but that's already really situational.

Reports of Aerial FT are that it kills approx ~20% later. So setups into it dont lead to stocks out of the blue as early as they used to. It seems like you're just gonna end up fishing for FT kills in the air.