Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

Discord chats make me sad, this thread is already too slow for my liking. Id join if everyone moved there, but i like that all our discussion is catalogued for anyone to read or dispute.


I think sonic will remain relevant because of his shiek MU. His results drop as people learn to counter spindash and juggle him, but his base attributes are really solid. A true player base will start utilizing solid tilts and mixups, not just spin2win, and he'll keep gaining traction. Probably.


Megaman does well against him. Its basically even against a good sonic, but stopping spindash cold is pretty frickin great at mid level sonic stomping.

 

[Teshie U]

@Luco, yea I could Mewtwo enjoying a comfortable neutral and punish game vs Bayonetta. I was mostly talking about moves that outrange the AoE when witch time activates (not just projectiles that kill)

 

[DblCrest]

KenMeister
Well I'm curious to know more about the following.

-3 Cloud- Damn I didn't think it was that bad I know things were a bit back on forth on the Kirby boards though.
-2 Megaman- I've seen quite a few matches between NinjaLink and Mikekirby during tourneys so I don't know if it's that bad. This makes me wonder who is the best megaman these days.
+1 Villager - I'm not sure how this match up could go so I disagree with it as I'm a bit pessimistic when it comes to Kirby's positive ones XD. I imagine it gets better if Kirby has pocket but Villager's turnips can be a real nuisance for Kirby's recoveries as well as the slingshots.
+1 Lucario This match up is rarely ever seen in high level play so I'd have listed it as under 0 would be safer but let's hear your thoughts.

Also good on you for not using the 50:50 number ratios . People really throw a fit overblowing what 55 could be against their character I've noticed. Better to keep things simple...

 

[Ffamran]

Going through Bayonetta's recovery frame data. Summary: high startup; low recovery for all normals except obviously, her Smashes which are all in the +42 recovery frame territory. Stupid statement: Bayonetta is Luigi if Luigi's startup was much higher.

Some of them are normal, like how her lingering Nair has low recovery, a common trait found on almost all lingering aerials. What's not common? The highest recovery if we ignore the landing hit of Dair is on her second hit of Fair at 23 frames. The lowest is Dair's 7 frames of recovery followed by Nair's 8, Uair's 12, Bair's 16, Fair 1's 18, Fair 3's 21, and then Fair 2. If we add in Dair's landing hit, 26 frames... Yeah. Her aerials have little to no recovery compared to other characters. Before you grab a pitchfork, this is how aerials work in Bayonetta and Devil May Cry where you're allowed to act quickly provided if you can stay in the air long enough... considering Bayonetta's average? jump, below-average air speed, and high fall speed - all traits found in hack 'n' slash games -, that might not be a problem... except for characters susceptible to her Fair 1 repeat gimp. That move's startup, active, and recovery frames make it literally an aerial Falco Dtilt if it moved him forward. Also, be glad she can't jump cancel like in her games.

Normals? Ignoring her Smashes, lowest is jab 1's 14 frames followed by Utilt at 15, Dtilt at 17, jab 2 and Ftilt 1 at 20, dash attack (Stilletto) at 21, jab 3 at 22, and Ftilt 2 and Ftilt 3 at 28. Once again, high startup and low recovery. Pretty much matches what she can do in her games and pretty much most hack 'n' slashes since you're just fighting meatbags and you really do need the whole "spectacular combat" to make it enjoyable. I mean, could you imagine playing DMC with Ganondorf? Ganondorf would better fit in Demon's / Dark Souls than in Bayonetta, DMC, God of War, MGR: Revengeance, or Ninja Gaiden. Even then, you're better off with Ike, Shulk, or Triple D since Ganondorf would basically be challenge mode in a series deemed really difficult by many players. You'd be better playing Ganondorf in a (non-action) RPG where frame data means jack. Anyway, Fox, Luigi, Mario, Sheik, and Yoshi would be freaking joke characters in hack 'n' slashes. They're pathetically weak and pathetically slow compared to Bayonetta, Dante, Kratos, Lady, Nero, Raiden, Sam, Trish, and Vergil. Even DmC Dante and klutz of a fighter, FFXV's Noctis would curbstomp them. Although they have better startup, their recovery would be way too damn slow unless they had some way to cancel ****. TOO SLOW *performs Rapid Slash*

 

[deepseadiva]

I'm so glad Bayonettas jab is so good.

A+A+A carried me through her games and won me all my beautiful stone awards and it'll carry me through Smash as well.

 

[Ffamran]

I'm so glad Bayonettas jab is so good.

A+A+A carried me through her games and won me all my beautiful stone awards and it'll carry me through Smash as well.

Too lazy to check, but I think Bayonetta's got the strongest rapid jab finisher in pure damage. Makes sense considering her jab is slow on startup... Meanwhile, Ganondorf's jab: weak and slow. How wonderful. Anyway, her really low recovery on her jab could maybe make it work to jab mixup, but considering how well her rapid jab connects and the amount of damage it can output, probably not worth risking a frame 9 to attempt for a grab or something else... She has Witch Twist for that. Also, Utilt for anti-airing; it's disjointed, it's fairly fast, and it has little recovery. The only moves I'm questioning and this is probably because her other moves do everything so well are dash attack and Dtilt... They just seem kind of there, especially dash attack which while it moves her forward, is slow and seems kind of weak.

Also, her F-throw's frame data is basically the Pits'. Same 150 growth, but the difference is that Bayonetta's throw - the part that actually throws and doesn't just do damage during the throw - does 3% while the Pits do 4%, her base is 60 to the Pits 50, and her throw angle is 49° to the Pits' 45°. D-throw might be able to kill with its 5% throw and 136 growth, but its 78° angle is going to hurt it. Oh, and B-throw's just kind of there...

 

[deepseadiva]

Bayonettas dash attack is called Heel Slide.

The other move that happens when you press A while dashing is in fact a glitch and is an error in programming.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm so glad Bayonettas jab is so good.

A+A+A carried me through her games and won me all my beautiful stone awards and it'll carry me through Smash as well.

22% for a safe, self spacing move with strong mixups.

It's obscenely good.

 

[DblCrest]

deepseadiva
Really I thought it was stinger or stiletto? XD
As much as I like the move... what good is it compared to her other moves? Honestly you can sit back and use bullet climax instead of having to dash in and get shield grabbed or worse.

Ffamran
They got Sheik and a load of characters to work well in Hack and slash like in Hyrule Warriors so I wouldn't be surprised if they could do the same for Mario,Luigi. Hell EVEN Tingle and Tetra ended up in that game.

 

[Meatbag]

So crouch cancelling screws up mks percents for da combos. Seems like you can take a few hits then when you are out of the percent range start playing normal again. What do you guys think?

 

[Megamang]

I think you might have found the only use for crouch cancelling.


Free damage for MK if you don't have a crawl or good dtilt, but at least its better than dying. I think MKs will come here and tell you that a real, well rounded MK player doesn't care because balanced play and stuff, but ya its nice not dying in bracket. What if he stales his DA on your crouching self though, giving him a chance to ladder if you miss your crouch and staleing it, extending his ranges? It is missing because the DA launch right?

 

[meleebrawler]

I think you might have found the only use for crouch cancelling.


Free damage for MK if you don't have a crawl or good dtilt, but at least its better than dying. I think MKs will come here and tell you that a real, well rounded MK player doesn't care because balanced play and stuff, but ya its nice not dying in bracket. What if he stales his DA on your crouching self though, giving him a chance to ladder if you miss your crouch and staleing it, extending his ranges? It is missing because the DA launch right?

Doesn't crawling negate the benefits of crouch cancelling?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Doesn't crawling negate the benefits of crouch cancelling?

Yes.

 

[Megamang]

I mean if you have neither, crouching is pretty lackluster. Its nice for 'fuzzy shielding' (term ive heard for easier perfect shielding due to hurtbox/shield movement stuff when you crouch) but really that isn't going to do much vs MK's attacks, except maybe rising dair. So what if you space with a crawl, but stop moving right before you get hit? Do you still get the benefit of the crouch cancel?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I mean if you have neither, crouching is pretty lackluster. Its nice for 'fuzzy shielding' (term ive heard for easier perfect shielding due to hurtbox/shield movement stuff when you crouch) but really that isn't going to do much vs MK's attacks, except maybe rising dair. So what if you space with a crawl, but stop moving right before you get hit? Do you still get the benefit of the crouch cancel?

Yes.

 

[Ulevo]

It is not just crouch cancelling. Any form of DI to the dash attack will change the needed %'s for the combo to work.

 

[KenMeister]

I'm actually kind of glad crouch cancelling doesn't exist ala Melee. Could you imagine how many more characters would be unviable in this game because of it? *shudders*

 

[Megamang]

Yea, but this is one that changes the % more significantly than most, right? Also, the first real use of crouch canceling ive seen where just dodging isn't infinitely better...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If we're talking about MK, I'm pretty sure the optimal DI for Shuttle Loop is DI in for the first hit, DI away for the second hit. It's quite odd but it should keep you alive for longer.

A MK more knowledgeable on the subject should confirm tho. Ulevo @Katakiri

 

[Megamang]

If you're gonna get hit, thats the best. But ive heard there is a way to SDI so the kill hit doesn't connect.


MK is definitely the most mysterious top tier, not entirely on accident.

 

[Asdioh]

The only moves I'm questioning and this is probably because her other moves do everything so well are dash attack and Dtilt... They just seem kind of there, especially dash attack which while it moves her forward, is slow and seems kind of weak.

Bayo's Dtilt seems like just your standard, decent Dtilt. It's faster than her Jab, which is nice, and it sorta-almost combos into Upair at kill percent. I see no problem with the move.

Bayonettas dash attack is called Heel Slide.

The other move that happens when you press A while dashing is in fact a glitch and is an error in programming.

I was thinking Bayo might have the worst dash attack in the game, but after messing around with it some more, it's not that bad. I think the real problem with the move is what you pointed out: Heel Slide exists. The fact that her DA gives burst movement makes it inherently decent, so it wouldn't be too bad on another slow character that didn't have access to a move like Heel Slide.

And then I thought about it, and I'm pretty convinced that Kirby and Luigi could be tied for the worst dash attacks in the game, with Marcina being an honorable mention:

Spoiler

-Neither provide much-needed burst movement options
-Neither combo, even at 0%
-Neither kill until near Sudden Death percent ranges
-Both are multihits that are ridiculously inconsistent at landing all hits, and therefore are often unsafe on hit
-Neither are disjointed, unlike some of the other multihit ones like Bowser Jr's or Corrin's
-Both do very low damage, only 8-9%
-Neither are even remotely safe on shield, unlike something like Pacman's
Kirby's is better than Luigi's in terms of FAF (54 vs 76) and Luigi's is better in terms of startup (4 vs 12)

All of the dash attacks in the game are faster than Kirby's, except for disjointed/burst movement/killing ones:
Bayonetta (burst movement)
Marth/Lucina (only 1 frame slower, and they're swords.. but yeah their dash attacks suck)
Ike/Roy/Shulk/Link (swords that kill people)
Villager (a projectile)
Dedede (murder)
Lucas (disjointed and does a good deal more damage)

It's a shame, I think Dash Attack is Kirby's* only truly flawed move now, since patches have fixed pretty much everything else to a reasonable level. If it was faster, and had higher reward, he could have a more reliable option against rolls. Rather than being a burst movement option, I think it actually slows him down. It probably used to be the same speed as his run, but it was unchanged, while his running speed was buffed...

*I can't speak for what flawed moves Luigi still has. His dtilt and ftilt stick out as pretty useless, when his jab and smashes exist.

 

[Ulevo]

If we're talking about MK, I'm pretty sure the optimal DI for Shuttle Loop is DI in for the first hit, DI away for the second hit. It's quite odd but it should keep you alive for longer.

A MK more knowledgeable on the subject should confirm tho. Ulevo @Katakiri

It depends. If the Meta Knight is going to sweet spot the Shuttle Loop, either by accident or to try and kill you earlier than usual, you can hold it either way but holding it in will usually have it wiff. If they hit the sour spot and you want to live, DI away for both hits.

 

[TheJolteon]

Roy should be lower. Everyone under him has accomplished more yatayatayata

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Too lazy to check, but I think Bayonetta's got the strongest rapid jab finisher in pure damage. Makes sense considering her jab is slow on startup... Meanwhile, Ganondorf's jab: weak and slow. How wonderful. Anyway, her really low recovery on her jab could maybe make it work to jab mixup, but considering how well her rapid jab connects and the amount of damage it can output, probably not worth risking a frame 9 to attempt for a grab or something else... She has Witch Twist for that. Also, Utilt for anti-airing; it's disjointed, it's fairly fast, and it has little recovery. The only moves I'm questioning and this is probably because her other moves do everything so well are dash attack and Dtilt... They just seem kind of there, especially dash attack which while it moves her forward, is slow and seems kind of weak.

Also, her F-throw's frame data is basically the Pits'. Same 150 growth, but the difference is that Bayonetta's throw - the part that actually throws and doesn't just do damage during the throw - does 3% while the Pits do 4%, her base is 60 to the Pits 50, and her throw angle is 49° to the Pits' 45°. D-throw might be able to kill with its 5% throw and 136 growth, but its 78° angle is going to hurt it. Oh, and B-throw's just kind of there...

So does her Fthrow kill just as early as the Pits can then?

 

[Das Koopa]

Roy should be lower. Everyone under him has accomplished more yatayatayata

basically this

-Bowser Jr, Kirby, G&W, Marth, and WFT all have better results.
-Lucas and Mewtwo have better movesets/tools.

Roy and Falco should be at the bottom of F imo

 

[Trunks159]

Well Falco has accomplished something and this tier list isn't based purely on results.

 

[Nobie]

Salem lost to another Ness.

Is it Salem or is it Bayonetta?

 

[Trunks159]

At Brotherly Love?

 

[meleebrawler]

Bayo's Dtilt seems like just your standard, decent Dtilt. It's faster than her Jab, which is nice, and it sorta-almost combos into Upair at kill percent. I see no problem with the move.


I was thinking Bayo might have the worst dash attack in the game, but after messing around with it some more, it's not that bad. I think the real problem with the move is what you pointed out: Heel Slide exists. The fact that her DA gives burst movement makes it inherently decent, so it wouldn't be too bad on another slow character that didn't have access to a move like Heel Slide.

And then I thought about it, and I'm pretty convinced that Kirby and Luigi could be tied for the worst dash attacks in the game, with Marcina being an honorable mention:

Spoiler

-Neither provide much-needed burst movement options
-Neither combo, even at 0%
-Neither kill until near Sudden Death percent ranges
-Both are multihits that are ridiculously inconsistent at landing all hits, and therefore are often unsafe on hit
-Neither are disjointed, unlike some of the other multihit ones like Bowser Jr's or Corrin's
-Both do very low damage, only 8-9%
-Neither are even remotely safe on shield, unlike something like Pacman's
Kirby's is better than Luigi's in terms of FAF (54 vs 76) and Luigi's is better in terms of startup (4 vs 12)

All of the dash attacks in the game are faster than Kirby's, except for disjointed/burst movement/killing ones:
Bayonetta (burst movement)
Marth/Lucina (only 1 frame slower, and they're swords.. but yeah their dash attacks suck)
Ike/Roy/Shulk/Link (swords that kill people)
Villager (a projectile)
Dedede (murder)
Lucas (disjointed and does a good deal more damage)

It's a shame, I think Dash Attack is Kirby's* only truly flawed move now, since patches have fixed pretty much everything else to a reasonable level. If it was faster, and had higher reward, he could have a more reliable option against rolls. Rather than being a burst movement option, I think it actually slows him down. It probably used to be the same speed as his run, but it was unchanged, while his running speed was buffed...

*I can't speak for what flawed moves Luigi still has. His dtilt and ftilt stick out as pretty useless, when his jab and smashes exist.

Luigi's dash attack is a running gag in Smash, done both to humiliate him and highlight his relative ineptitude (or cowardice) at starting a fight, same with Green Missile.

64 dash attack would likely be the worst dash attack in the entire series if 's wasn't a thing (with a dishonourable mention to ). Especially frustrating in that Burning was a great concept for a dash attack but horribly executed in every way imaginable.

Each game added something to the fists of fury, Melee made it actually hit multiple times, Brawl gave it a finishing hit and now it links properly. But no matter what it's always going to be a very inefficient move.

Kirby on the other hand, holds the distinction of having had a different dash attack in every game until now. His first one was probably the best since it was the least unsafe and could start combos.

As for Luigi's tilts, dtilt is another one of those "joke" moves, a rare case where it's utility is almost exactly the same as ftilt, a very basic poke, but with the added benefit. In 64 it was one of two moves that were completely distinct from Mario, and it was strictly inferior to Mario's. Now, I call it the "woopsie-daisy" kick, due to it's tripping and having the perfect angle for causing For Glory players to accidentally input a move as they're falling off a ledge. Ftilt... there are many, many examples of outclassed ftilts. Anything leveled against Luigi's can also be said for Mario and Doc's. Other obsolete ftilts: , , , ,, , , , , ... all these characters generally only use them as basic pivot moves and nothing more.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Ness just happens to have good tools to fight Bayonetta with. Ness's excellent grab and throw game beats witch time, his short size reduces the effectiveness of bullet climax, his small size and frame 3 nair makes it easier to get out of her combos, and his frame data is mostly superior to Bayonetta's.

edit: Nair is frame 5. Sorry for wrong info.
brb, setting Kurogane Hammer's site to my homepage.

 

[Smog Frog]

nair is frame 5 not frame 3

 

[Shaya]

Salem lost to another Ness.

Is it Salem or is it Bayonetta?

Salem has always been inconsistent.
He won Apex and then didn't win a local or anything up until the recent Ktar weekend (I don't think he won anything in Smash4 up until then but not 100% sure).

Probably a bit reflective of Ness having a good time but also that the Salem curse is the realest of all.

 

[LancerStaff]

Other obsolete ftilts: , , , ,, , , , , ... all these characters generally only use them as basic pivot moves and nothing more.

Sorta feel the same about the Pits'. Pit's kills late with a tipper, but it comes out the same fame Fsmash does... Admittedly it's got a lot more range then the first hit of Fsmash but still. Dark Pit's is unsafe on hit at lower percents outside of the tipper, but interestingly sets up techchases. They're actually kinda bad out of a pivot anyway since for some reason they don't step forwards out of one and it's lacking in the disjoint department.

Since their Dtilt has a ton of reach and their Jab 1 is almost as big as Corrin's Ftilt it's not an issue though.

 

[nerdbot]

I'm confident that next time there's a tier list, Toon Link and Greninja are going way up. I don't know if it's a response to the tier list or just coincidence, and Toon Link got some buffs which helps, but I have been seeing both of these characters' presences as tourneys increase by a substantial degree in the last month, and they've been getting results to back that presence.

 

[Megamang]

meleebrawler fox's running ftilt the 'wrong way' back hitbox has solid combo potential. At certain percents it can combo to utilt when dash attack wont. At kill percents it combos into usmash.

Pikas up angled ftilt does more knockback. It can actually kill at the ledge in clutch last hit situations while being very safe and quick.

No comment on the rest though.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm confident that next time there's a tier list, Toon Link and Greninja are going way up. I don't know if it's a response to the tier list or just coincidence, and Toon Link got some buffs which helps, but I have been seeing both of these characters' presences as tourneys increase by a substantial degree in the last month, and they've been getting results to back that presence.

If Eddy and istudying kick as much butt as I hope they do, greninja moving up will be inevitable.

 

[TheMiSP]

If Eddy and istudying kick as much butt as I hope they do, greninja moving up will be inevitable.

Yep. Eddy and iStudying made it to top 64. Unfortunately, Eddy will be going against Mr. R first round. RIP (not really, but he will most likely be sent to losers I think).

Also, there are 4 s in top 64: Long0uw, ccst, Robo~Luigi, and Miguel. may get some good results from BEAST 6.

Source: https://smash.gg/tournament/beast-6/brackets/10660/10838/38057

 

[Ffamran]

Anything leveled against Luigi's can also be said for Mario and Doc's. Other obsolete ftilts: , , , ,, , , , , ... all these characters generally only use them as basic pivot moves and nothing more.

Fox's Ftilt is used for resets which he could easily get from fast fall Fair and I'm pretty damn sure Fox can setup an Up Smash with Ftilt, but there's so many other, safer, more reliable options that it's not used often. Oh, and I guess early damage and as a "second" jab because its recovery is ridiculous compared to other check kicks. Out of the characters you listed, Fox's Ftilt is probably the more versatile one since the others just use them for basic spacing and that's it which is pretty bad since they have other moves that do the same thing like Kirby and Mewtwo's Dtilts or they have much safer, more reliable, moves like ZSS's Nair which is also capable of setting up unlike her Ftilt. In some cases, they're kind of almost useless like Diddy's Ftilt is too slow and too weak for what it does... The fact it makes a stretch-y, rubber-y sound makes me feel like it's a joke move despite its resemblance to an actual move some martial arts use to cause serious damage.

 

[Das Koopa]

Well Falco has accomplished something and this tier list isn't based purely on results.

What has he accomplished?

 

[Charoite]

Ryuga takes a set against ally 3-1 . ally used both and thoughts?

interesting that both ikes likes using corrin

this is the bracket of the tournament for anyone who want to see it:
https://smash.gg/tournament/landlocked/brackets/10936/10843/38062