Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nah]

Better overall range? Not sure about that.

Aerial for aerial, our Bair/Uair/Nair have more range. I don't know if I can accurately compare dairs since ours is a disjointed stall-then-fall. Ike and Corrin have similar utilt range (but Corrin may have the better hitbox since it completely covers both sides of him) while Ike wins in Dtilt and ftilt. All of our smashes have more range except for usmash (ours goes farther, but Ike has a better range of motion)
I would say Corrin wins the range battle overall.

His frame data is much worse that ours, can't really sugarcoat that.
All of his aerials and tilts (bar Bair and Dtilt) are over 10 frames in startup. However, he has the faster jab (at the expense of range) which is quite important.

Oh

Guess I needed to take a better look.....

Regardless, we should wait and see which character executes their gameplan better in the long run.
My guess is Corrin but I'm probably biased.

I mean hey, I'm biased too, I play the character too, just I guess my bias runs in the opposite direction or something lol


@Radical Larry

Walk
Link: 1.188
Sheik: 1.4
Ike: 0.869
Peach: 0.86

Run
Link: 1.394
Sheik: 2.016
Ike: 1.5
Peach: 1.4175

Airspeed
Link: 0.88
Sheik: 1.1
Ike: 1.08
Peach: 0.95

Fall/Fastfall
Link: 1.06/3.04
Sheik: 1.75/2.8
Ike: 1.65/2.64
Peach: 1.15/1.84

Bayonetta's mobility specs don't seem to be up on Kurogane yet

 

[Sonicninja115]

I believe it is unnecessary rule. I have yet to see a case where it has taken more than 1 min between games. Also what can someone gain from "taking too much time" between games? I can understand it having some kind of a impact, but far from major enough to affect the outcome of the next match.

It cuts momentum. Or at least that is the biggest argument. It is a small, but pretty valid complaint. Especially if done on purpose.

 

[Thinkaman]

I believe it is unnecessary rule. I have yet to see a case where it has taken more than 1 min between games. Also what can someone gain from "taking too much time" between games? I can understand it having some kind of a impact, but far from major enough to affect the outcome of the next match.

Uh, let's be clear. The point of this rule is very bluntly throwing down the gauntlet to anti-Mii crusaders.

"If we can make a Mii in less than a minute, shut the hell up and let us play our character."

This is a very pointedly anti-anti-Mii ruleset via a series of loud omissions.

This is relevant to this topic only because it radically affects the competitive viability of these 3 characters, and frankly whether they merit discussion at all.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Most characters have an option for each of another character's options, if there were no options the character would lose the MU hard. To Radical Larry's analysis on Sheik's getup options, ofcourse Link has option coverage. EVERY CHARACTER DOES! Now, if you have a move that can cover multiple getup options (Like longlasting command grabs, gyro, etc) then that is good. Having to read 1/5 options every time you end up getting a sheik (or any character) offstage does not mean a single thing.

 

[C0rvus]

Link can beat Sheik, that much is clear. He had ways to respond to her tools for the most part. The issue is that he needs to read her option and in many cases put out his response before she swings, which is just begging to be baited and punished.

All Link has to do to beat Sheik is consistently read her and outplay the player at every turn. Easier said than done, and not realistic in the slightest. In matchups, tool interactions are the bread and butter, and we need to take into account what interactions each character has an easier time in.

Yes, you can beat Cloud's dair, but in how many scenarios and does it require a read? Do you need to outplay your opponent to beat this tool? How much risk is involved? These are things we need consider when we talk about matchups.

 

[PK Gaming]

im really interested in hearing what makes you think that corrin is worse than ike. i find that hilarious when people say that.

PS: no bias, really. i just dont see what makes ike better. and no, dthrow-> fair cant be the reason

Cut the sass, Fex. I don't care if you think my position is hilarious, but if you're implying that Ike is a bad character, then that's actually hilarious.

Both characters have their share of strengths, but Ike's kit seems stronger. Deny all you want, but Ike having actually follow ups from his throw is a ridiculously good boon, and he generally more kill setups than Corrin as well. None of this is set in stone, but that's simply how I feel at the moment.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

dthrow-> fair cant be the reason

okay

uthrow -> fair Kappa

 

[Mr. Johan]

At this point I'm just assuming that Ike was given all these buffs to his throw game and range over the patches as a sort of compensation for his recovery options requireing a far more paramount commitment than any other recovery. Give him a puissant presence onstage in return for being particularly hollow offstage.

Which would be fine and all, if Quick Draw didn't autocancel and Aether didn't have super armor and a wild, flailing disjointed hitbox to it.

Dunno, just comes across as not realizing how good those two moves actually are, and giving him presents in the hopes of appeasing the already-satisfied Ike players.

 

[Jams.]

At this point I'm just assuming that Ike was given all these buffs to his throw game and range over the patches as a sort of compensation for his recovery options requireing a far more paramount commitment than any other recovery. Give him a puissant presence onstage in return for being particularly hollow offstage.

Which would be fine and all, if Quick Draw didn't autocancel and Aether didn't have super armor and a wild, flailing disjointed hitbox to it.

Dunno, just comes across as not realizing how good those two moves actually are, and giving him presents in the hopes of appeasing the already-satisfied Ike players.

Personally, I wouldn't try to rationalize the continued Ike buffs. I think at this point the best explanation is "Japan pls."

ike's neutral leaves a lot to be desired and it seems that people are really underestimating corrins mix up game and easy to trap into kill setups. those are two major points corrin has over ike that shouldnt be undervalued.
that aside, it has been 2 weeks and once the dust has settled we will see how well corrin is doing (half a year from now or so)
i personally still believe corrin is a lil better than ike, just because her moves are easier to hit, which matters a lot in high level play,imo. and she has a great projectile that sets up a lot of stupid stuff at 80 plus % while being pretty reliable at hitting with landing traps, reads, c-bounces, b-reversals.
but other than that, i agree with you on the rest.

What are Corrin's easy kill set-ups? From personal experience, all her kill set-ups felt super finicky and situational, and I thought that it was a weakness of the character. She partly makes up for this by having some good kill options that aren't confirms and 2 last resort kill throws. It seemed similar to the situation with Marth and Roy (and sort of Lucina because no sourspot combos). Genuinely curious, since I would love to have some easy kill set-ups with this character.

Also, I'm just going to use female pronouns for Corrin from now on because I use female Corrin. I've been using male pronouns before because default Corrin is male, but going back to proofread and fix my subconscious usage of female pronouns is too much of a hassle.

 

[C0rvus]

I don't bother worrying about policing my pronouns for Corrin. It's one of the few cases where either is okay and I play either gender since all their color swaps are pretty nice.

Corrin's kill setups are pretty situational. That said, they tend to be low commitment, like paralyzer confirms from midrange, and fair strings that sometime lead into up air/air dodge traps. Fsmash can be safe in a number of situations but largely isn't. Between fsmash and DL, Corrin can really hurt someone with a whiff punish, but proactive kills aren't common. That isn't good. Kill throws are nice, though.

 

[san.]

Are Ike's quick draw and aether first world problems now? Of all the things to buff (in terms of being used in neutral), I'd put those at the top if you want to make Ike a top character properly (outside of blatantly overbuffing some moves of course).

Anyways, Ike has quite a few traps and kill confirms into fair, nair, uair, and bair across varying circumstances.

Uthrow->fair, uair, nair
Nair-> fair, uair
Sourspot Nair-> fair, uair, bair
Dtilt-> fair
Jab->Dtilt->Fair
Dtilt grounded spike->fair, uair, bair

That's pretty much it. Nair->uair is more practical due to the better angle. Uthrow->fair is better (used to be low rage + at the edge only). Uthrow->nair only works on fastfallers at low rage, otherwise it's a 50/50.

The most consistent guaranteed ones come from fair. Uair is guaranteed sometimes but is a 50/50 for a long time. Nair is guaranteed and kills only during a thin margin.

It's tough to say when things are 50/50s and guaranteed outside of fair, but there are enough mixups where there are multiple options against DIing in and away.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Are Ike's quick draw and aether first world problems now? Of all the things to buff (in terms of being used in neutral), I'd put those at the top if you want to make Ike a top character properly (outside of blatantly overbuffing some moves of course).

Anyways, Ike has quite a few traps and kill confirms into fair, nair, uair, and bair across varying circumstances.

Uthrow->fair, uair, nair
Nair-> fair, uair
Sourspot Nair-> fair, uair, bair
Dtilt-> fair
Jab->Dtilt->Fair
Dtilt grounded spike->fair, uair, bair

That's pretty much it. Nair->uair is more practical due to the better angle. Uthrow->fair is better (used to be low rage + at the edge only). Uthrow->nair only works on fastfallers at low rage, otherwise it's a 50/50.

The most consistent guaranteed ones come from fair. Uair is guaranteed sometimes but is a 50/50 for a long time. Nair is guaranteed and kills only during a thin margin.

It's tough to say when things are 50/50s and guaranteed outside of fair, but there are enough mixups where there are multiple options against DIing in and away.

Really nerfing Sheik and Zero Suit (and maybe Bayo) would do more to make him a top character than actually buffing him would. Ike's main problem is that his toughest MUs are the most important ones meta wise.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Really nerfing Sheik and Zero Suit (and maybe Bayo) would do more to make him a top character than actually buffing him would. Ike's main problem is that his toughest MUs are the most important ones meta wise.

Funny you mention ZSS.

Ike mains have started to have a bit of a streak of beating ZSS in tournament. V115 lost to two separate Ikes, another ZSS lost to a different one.

Really, ZSS isn't that bad. Disadvantaged sure, but not one Ike has to overly worry about.

Bayo I'm not overly worried about either as long as the key gameplay against Bayo in general is "get guaranteed damage off of grabs". Ike's kinda good at that.

 

[Nobie]

Though Bayonetta bares certain similarities to ZSS, I think a character that's actually quite close to her in terms of overall concept is Shulk. Both are meant to have slow startup on attacks, both are meant to emphasize versatility (albeit in different ways), and both are known for having powerful and dangerous Counters. What makes one character possibly a top tier and the other generally considered low tier at best?

You can point to the crazy combos and such, but I think the actual reason that Bayonetta is feared all simply comes down to Witch TIme. Think about it: given her frame data, especially on the defensive, if you get in her face even Ganondorf can content with her in footsies. What throws a wrench in all of this is Witch Time, because it means that even a simple safe poke done at the wrong time, even a 1% damage attack, can potentially lead to a 0 to death by Bayonetta.

Shulk has something similar, at least in customs: Power Vision. It's an absurdly powerful Counter that can take out an opponent at low percents, but is (at least ostensibly) balanced by the fact that it's penalized tremendously for overuse or poor usage. Now, imagine if Power Vision was Shulk's standard Down B, and imagine that it lost its juice at the same rate as normal Vision or Witch Time. Suddenly Shulk's bad frame data matters less, because if he reads your jab you might just straight up die.

In conclusion: I don't know? Nerf Witch Time by giving it even more diminishing returns? Buff Shulk by doing the opposite? Either way I really think Witch Time's balance is really what causes people to fear Bayonetta.

 

[Locke 06]

Though Bayonetta bares certain similarities to ZSS, I think a character that's actually quite close to her in terms of overall concept is Shulk. Both are meant to have slow startup on attacks, both are meant to emphasize versatility (albeit in different ways), and both are known for having powerful and dangerous Counters. What makes one character possibly a top tier and the other generally considered low tier at best?

You can point to the crazy combos and such, but I think the actual reason that Bayonetta is feared all simply comes down to Witch TIme. Think about it: given her frame data, especially on the defensive, if you get in her face even Ganondorf can content with her in footsies. What throws a wrench in all of this is Witch Time, because it means that even a simple safe poke done at the wrong time, even a 1% damage attack, can potentially lead to a 0 to death by Bayonetta.

Shulk has something similar, at least in customs: Power Vision. It's an absurdly powerful Counter that can take out an opponent at low percents, but is (at least ostensibly) balanced by the fact that it's penalized tremendously for overuse or poor usage. Now, imagine if Power Vision was Shulk's standard Down B, and imagine that it lost its juice at the same rate as normal Vision or Witch Time. Suddenly Shulk's bad frame data matters less, because if he reads your jab you might just straight up die.

In conclusion: I don't know? Nerf Witch Time by giving it even more diminishing returns? Buff Shulk by doing the opposite? Either way I really think Witch Time's balance is really what causes people to fear Bayonetta.

I think afterburner kick's flexibility as a dive kick and burst mobility option is the biggest difference between Shulk and Bayo. Bayo has a stronger extended midrange game than Shulk.

Shulk, even in his mobility arts speed/jump, doesn't have that "I'm going to catch you mid initial Dash approaching." Bayo's fsmash is f19, but, because of the range, it can work as a yolo midrange option. Heel slide, while it has poor startup, moves her forwards. Their Dash attacks both are rather poor for a midrange burst attack.

The other bigger difference is their options in the air. Bayo has multiple sub-f10 options, while Shulk does not. One of which starts combos and moves her in the air... 2 of which have the option of lingering.

Witch time cheese is a crutch, imo. She's a decent/good character without it. Some of the best/ezmode edgeguard potential in the game even without run off counter.

 

[Solfiner]

The best way to buff Shulk would handsdown be either less start up on Fair, less lag after his aerials (except for Nair) or a better jab in general.

His dash attack would also need a buff, it's painfully similar to Ike's non buffed dash attack since it's laggy and barely kills.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think afterburner kick's flexibility as a dive kick and burst mobility option is the biggest difference between Shulk and Bayo. Bayo has a stronger extended midrange game than Shulk.

Shulk, even in his mobility arts speed/jump, doesn't have that "I'm going to catch you mid initial Dash approaching." Bayo's fsmash is f19, but, because of the range, it can work as a yolo midrange option. Heel slide, while it has poor startup, moves her forwards. Their Dash attacks both are rather poor for a midrange burst attack.

The other bigger difference is their options in the air. Bayo has multiple sub-f10 options, while Shulk does not. One of which starts combos and moves her in the air... 2 of which have the option of lingering.

Witch time cheese is a crutch, imo. She's a decent/good character without it. Some of the best/ezmode edgeguard potential in the game even without run off counter.

Don't forget she can shoot you past footsie range to force reactions.

There's also the fact that Witch Time is more location-dependent than it looks. You're in for it on the ground or offstage, but in the air it's generally far less of a threat, unless there's ample platforms.

It's just one aspect of fearing Bayonetta in disadvantage. Since she otherwise can bat within if you're a frame off in combos or dive kick away from most uncomfortable situations.

 

[Planty]

Uh, let's be clear. The point of this rule is very bluntly throwing down the gauntlet to anti-Mii crusaders.

"If we can make a Mii in less than a minute, shut the hell up and let us play our character."

This is a very pointedly anti-anti-Mii ruleset via a series of loud omissions.

..No. Did I miss any sarcasm?

You usually have very well thought out and reasonable posts but this one isn't. Why would the TOs care about Miis in any way for any reason? This rule seems to just exist so the tournament doesn't last forever.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh

Guess I needed to take a better look.....


I mean hey, I'm biased too, I play the character too, just I guess my bias runs in the opposite direction or something lol


@Radical Larry

Walk
Link: 1.188
Sheik: 1.4
Ike: 0.869
Peach: 0.86

Run
Link: 1.394
Sheik: 2.016
Ike: 1.5
Peach: 1.4175

Airspeed
Link: 0.88
Sheik: 1.1
Ike: 1.08
Peach: 0.95

Fall/Fastfall
Link: 1.06/3.04
Sheik: 1.75/2.8
Ike: 1.65/2.64
Peach: 1.15/1.84

Bayonetta's mobility specs don't seem to be up on Kurogane yet

The rankings there I just don't have the exact numbers yet.

 

[Eugene Wang]

..No. Did I miss any sarcasm?

You usually have very well thought out and reasonable posts but this one isn't. Why would the TOs care about Miis in any way for any reason? This rule seems to just exist so the tournament doesn't last forever.

Some people reason backwards, drawing arguments from conclusions rather than drawing conclusions from arguments. Plenty of anti-mii people, for example. And if you leave them to blab, a hapless TO will eventually take their arguments at face value. Shooting spurious but valid-looking arguments down is a tedious task, but it has to be done to keep them from having any real-world effects.

 

[Lord Horatio]

Why is Ness merely 13? FOW placed 5th at Genesis and then 4th at PAX South, so he should be in the top ten at least.

 

[Megamang]

I thought it was to prevent annoyingly comprehensive coaching, which not only rewards the well connected but is really annoying to everyone else.

Edit: Lord Horatio , ill ask the standard response question to X should be top ten... who would he replace? Tbh i could see argument for pika perhaps, but an ostensibly crippling MU with a queen can only really be offset with a goodish MU with the others and...

 

[Smog Frog]

i've said it before and i'll say it again. mu with is not worse than 6:4. he blows her up just as much offstage as she does to him, and in general kills her MUCH earlier outside of gimps. oh, and he has disjoints to safely contest luma(bair in particular just blows luma up)

 

[Megamang]

Yea, everyone says that but ness always gets BTFO by Luma in tournament. Ness does beat shiek considerably often in tournament though, for a 6 4 conparison.

 

[L9999]

Why is Ness merely 13? FOW placed 5th at Genesis and then 4th at PAX South, so he should be in the top ten at least.

IMO that is FOW being freaking amazing.

i've said it before and i'll say it again. mu with is not worse than 6:4. he blows her up just as much offstage as she does to him, and in general kills her MUCH earlier outside of gimps. oh, and he has disjoints to safely contest luma(bair in particular just blows luma up)

is a terrible matchup no matter how optimistic or "hopeful" it might be in theory. ( Freaking Vinnie's 3-0'd FOW).

Yea, everyone says that but ness always gets BTFO by Luma in tournament. Ness does beat shiek considerably often in tournament though, for a 6 4 conparison.

has to play out of his mind to beat . Shaky and FOW beat Sheik players consistently because they are really good, in theory should be disposing of just as does it.

 

[Nobie]

So a Ness, aka "King of Back Throws" and "Down Throw into Fair Machine" just beat Salem at a Philadelphia weekly. There were some mistakes on both sides, but I think this is an example of the power of grabs vs. Bayonetta, especially if she builds up the opponent's rage and can't seal the stock.

 

[deepseadiva]

So a Ness, aka "King of Back Throws" and "Down Throw into Fair Machine" just beat Salem at a Philadelphia weekly. There were some mistakes on both sides, but I think this is an example of the power of grabs vs. Bayonetta, especially if she builds up the opponent's rage and can't seal the stock.

What a wonderful narrative.

The Counter Queen is CP'd by a grab monster.

 

[Blobface]

Though Bayonetta bares certain similarities to ZSS, I think a character that's actually quite close to her in terms of overall concept is Shulk. Both are meant to have slow startup on attacks, both are meant to emphasize versatility (albeit in different ways), and both are known for having powerful and dangerous Counters. What makes one character possibly a top tier and the other generally considered low tier at best?

You can point to the crazy combos and such, but I think the actual reason that Bayonetta is feared all simply comes down to Witch TIme. Think about it: given her frame data, especially on the defensive, if you get in her face even Ganondorf can content with her in footsies. What throws a wrench in all of this is Witch Time, because it means that even a simple safe poke done at the wrong time, even a 1% damage attack, can potentially lead to a 0 to death by Bayonetta.

Shulk has something similar, at least in customs: Power Vision. It's an absurdly powerful Counter that can take out an opponent at low percents, but is (at least ostensibly) balanced by the fact that it's penalized tremendously for overuse or poor usage. Now, imagine if Power Vision was Shulk's standard Down B, and imagine that it lost its juice at the same rate as normal Vision or Witch Time. Suddenly Shulk's bad frame data matters less, because if he reads your jab you might just straight up die.

In conclusion: I don't know? Nerf Witch Time by giving it even more diminishing returns? Buff Shulk by doing the opposite? Either way I really think Witch Time's balance is really what causes people to fear Bayonetta.

Just to note, isn't Shulk's counter particularly strong too? AFAIK before Corrin and Bayonetta is was the best counter in the game, property wise.

Did Salem go offstage a lot? Is there any footage of it?

 

[Nobie]

Just to note, isn't Shulk's counter particularly strong too? AFAIK before Corrin and Bayonetta is was the best counter in the game, property wise.

Did Salem go offstage a lot? Is there any footage of it?

It was more that the Ness kept Salem off stage a lot and kept foiling the ledge options with good grabs.

Though at one point Salem was jumping off and Witch Timing the PK Thunder 2 to great effect.

 

[Pancracio17]

im courious to how he challenged pk thunder 2, doent it have great priority? dair maybe?

 

[Mario766]

Better overall range? Not sure about that.

Aerial for aerial, our Bair/Uair/Nair have more range. I don't know if I can accurately compare dairs since ours is a disjointed stall-then-fall. Ike and Corrin have similar utilt range (but Corrin may have the better hitbox since it completely covers both sides of him) while Ike wins in Dtilt and ftilt. All of our smashes have more range except for usmash (ours goes farther, but Ike has a better range of motion)
I would say Corrin wins the range battle overall.

His frame data is much worse that ours, can't really sugarcoat that.
All of his aerials and tilts (bar Bair and Dtilt) are over 10 frames in startup. However, he has the faster jab (at the expense of range) which is quite important.

Regardless, we should wait and see which character executes their gameplan better in the long run.
My guess is Corrin but I'm probably biased.

Up-Tilt covers Ike below, behind in front and above him.

The hitbox is MUCH better for Ike.

 

[Nu~]

Ah, my mistake. Lack of Ike knowledge on my part.

 

[Megamang]

im courious to how he challenged pk thunder 2, doent it have great priority? dair maybe?

Witch time. Against bayo, you actually want a hitboxless recovery. Though that makes her nair deadly.

Best possible scenerio is probably some sort of invisible teleport that can avoid generating hitboxes by snapping early. Also, a burst movement option for escaping traps, which can also quickly snap the ledge if necessary. Also, a kill confirm from a grab. Oy.

 

[Smog Frog]

hey

you described

 

[Teshie U]

Witch time. Against bayo, you actually want a hitboxless recovery. Though that makes her nair deadly.

Best possible scenerio is probably some sort of invisible teleport that can avoid generating hitboxes by snapping early. Also, a burst movement option for escaping traps, which can also quickly snap the ledge if necessary. Also, a kill confirm from a grab. Oy.

Alternatively, a kill move that can outspace witch time is nice too.

 

[RonNewcomb]

So a Ness, aka "King of Back Throws" and "Down Throw into Fair Machine" just beat Salem at a Philadelphia weekly. There were some mistakes on both sides, but I think this is an example of the power of grabs vs. Bayonetta, especially if she builds up the opponent's rage and can't seal the stock.

Well sure, except that a third of the cast has a grab that randomly fails against her.

 

[Luco]

I thought it was to prevent annoyingly comprehensive coaching, which not only rewards the well connected but is really annoying to everyone else.

Edit: Lord Horatio , ill ask the standard response question to X should be top ten... who would he replace? Tbh i could see argument for pika perhaps, but an ostensibly crippling MU with a queen can only really be offset with a goodish MU with the others and...

Ness has a seemingly goodish MU against ZSS and tbh I don't agree with L9999 that Sheik should be invalidating Ness as hard as Rosa does (If FOW can beat Vinnie's main Sheik and not his pocket Rosa then I don't think 'being really good' is the reason). Ness gets out-damaged and can't press advantage as hard on Sheik but plays neutral against her better than Rosa and also doesn't get insta KO-d offstage, instead taking 30% which is a lot more manageable when rage Uair / Bthrow kills Sheik at 90%.

I don't know if Ness is top 10 (if he is he's almost certainly 10th though), but I'd argue his recent placements are better than , who afaik hasn't even made top 8 in any major tournaments lately. Not even Umebura. I'm beginning to struggle to see why Sonic is still seen as a national threat (actually, no, I've been thinking this for some time actually). He feels closer to Brawl DDD in terms of his gatekeeping of the lower tiers to me whilst getting destroyed by some of the top tiers. #controversialstatements

That being said, Sonic still destroys Ness as a MU lel.

And Teshie U Funny enough that has that too. I think mewtwo is hella under-rated, though of course I think most people know that by now so we'll just have to see where he ends up.

EDIT: In retrospect, I probably should have broken those two middling-size paragraphs above me into 2 separate posts spaced out over time. I talk about Ness a lot, and then also to go ahead and dispute Sonic's position in the same post? I feel radical.

 

[Smog Frog]

simply doesnt have rep as good as .

if komorikiri didnt jump on the hype train he'd still have plenty of top 8 placements.

also he still has many top 16 appearances.

 

[Luco]

Didn't Komorikiri use as well as at G3? I feel like he's still using that character, and whilst Sonic does still have plenty of top 16's, does that really make him 6th best character in the game?

I dunno man, doesn't feel right to me.

Also on a very off-topic note I've been thinking of trying to start up a Discord chat for all of the regulars here for random thoughts, tidbits and an actual place to be social (we like each other enough for that right? Right....? *gets evilly stared down* ). Thoughts?

 

[KenMeister]

Hi guys! I'm a Kirby main from NW Florida who's played opponents from around the area in locals and monthlies, Alabama and Mississippi. I don't claim myself to be a great Kirby by any means (because I'm not), but I whipped out a MU chart which most of the Kirby boards agreed on, and I wanted to share it with everyone. I'm still sketchy on what Corrin and Bayonetta would actually like in practice, but if anyone has any questions or wants to agree/disagree with these opinions, feel free to respond! ^^
https://imgur.com/QrLsc2e