Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff
Range? Corrin's nair is huge. Can wall out a lot of characters. Also many of his aerials are great for catching landings and juggling because of their range (fair and up air comes to mind). Ryo has shown people that there are several frame traps at the ledge that can kill many of the characters in the roster at mid-high %.

That's all I can think of atm.

I mean, Pit's Nair is insane for completely different reasons... I'm going to say Pit's better at catching landings because he's faster, has a bunch of multihit aerials, and a faster dash attack. Pit's got frame traps and kill confirms too.

Corrin has better kill options, better range overall, I'd say he has better advantage and a better combo game, and dragon lunge means he can be pretty mobile.

In what way is DL a mobility option...? I'm not seeing how Corrin has a better advantage since Pit's got better mobility and SHAC everything. Or kill options.

Corrin has long duration arcing hitboxes.
A significantly better set of tilts.
I'm not sure how he has a better advantage, Pit has to control space and make reads to get continual follow ups. Corrin just throws out another fair or nair and it does all the work for them.
Corrin at this time is probably taking less harassment from recovering than Pit does.
Corrin's projectile is not a projectile like you are pretending it is... not a neutral tool at all (neither is ZSS paralyzer).
Side-b is a long range anti-ground kill move, set up move, and mobility tool. Nothing else like this exists in this game.

Corrin
Neutral Air Strong [- 7,-49] [-40,-41] [-33,-34]
Neutral Air Weak [- 8,-48] [-29,-40] [-22,-33]
Forward Air [- 8,-29] [-17,-20] [-19,-22]
Back Air [- 6,-33] [-21,-24] [-17,-20]
Up Air [- 8,-39] [-24,-29] [-18,-23]
Down Air [-23,-50] [-13,-29] [-20,-36]
Dair Landing [-16]

Pit
Neutral Air Final [-20,-24] [- 5] [-26]
Forward Air Final [-16,-24] [- 8,- 9] [-23,-24]
Back Air Strong [-12,-28] [-11,-13] [-20,-22]
Up Air Final [-21,-32] [-12,-13] [-21,-22]
Down Air [-17,-41] [-20,-22] [-17,-19]

Well, a generally safer landing nair than Pit's which can be fallen out of whilst requiring an AC.
As safe a forward air while being a significantly better forward air
Significantly safer up air

...

I wouldn't say Corrin is definitely better than Pit.
But you're being silly for the rest Lancer

You know ithe frame data's not that simple, Shaya. Pit's Nair and Fair are multihit. You can't perfect shield them properly, and they're effectively both rising and falling aerials at the same time. Pit's Nair especially because it's ridiculously easy to cross up shields with. I'm curious, any idea how long the effective startup on Corrin's aerials would be if you're going for maximum safety? And also some perfect shield numbers...

Pit's Dair (in comparison to Corrin's Fair namely) is similar, although it simply ends in a SH and be acted out of before hitting the ground. In terms of safety while using it in a way to get a solid follow-up I think Pit's would be better, although I can't do the math right now.

There's lots of minor things that add up and make Corrin a different character altogether and those same things are also things that he has over Pit. I won't be listing them but I'll cover 2 big ones briefly.

First is kill potential. Pit has U-smash which is pretty decent at catching landings but otherwise is dysfunctional in many situations. He also has F-throw after a ledge getup read. His other kill moves are good, but they're not something that's all that useful in many situations.
In Corrin's case, her ability to set up 50/50 situations and landing traps, on top of being full of kill confirms off of main poking tools.

D-tilt is a very good move to get some pokes in. It also true combos into Uair kills at certain % ranges (and they're not tight % ranges either). Past that, it creates a 50/50 with Uair.
U-tilt is basically the ultimate anti-air. (Pit doesn't have anti-airs either, does he? Does pivot U-smash work?). This ultimate anti-air that gets beaten by nearly nothing sets up a 50/50 for a kill.
Fair, a great tool in neutral, sets up kill combos as early as 50%. Past the range where it'll kill confirm, it sets up another 50/50.
Nair, another great tool with a ridiculous hitbox, sets you up for non-guaranteed kills or landing traps.
DFS is good at catching landings. Close up and it kills super early. Far away and it sets up into Uair or Bair kills.
F-smash is good at catching landings.

Notice how all of these are landing traps or Uair kills? Corrin is likely the best at getting you in that sort of position and a master at capitalizing on it. If the opponent goes to the ledge, they risk an F-smash. Also 2 kill throws that start working at ~150%. They kill like 15 or 20% later than Pit's F-throw at the ledge and is more consistent in where it kills. Don't ever underrate consistency.

Second thing is platform play. Corrin's platform play is dumb. Just go to the AT thread on the Corrin boards. Really odd stuff has been found.
Pit has... U-smash landing traps and what other notable things with platforms?


There is just no way that you can even compare Corrin's advantage state to Pit's. So there you go: Corrin has a much better advantage state.

Also I do agree that Pit has a better disadvantage state, although you can't deny that being able to land with aerials and scaring people away from juggles because of counter is pretty big.

Hardly Zelda 2.0

Usmash is a lot more then decent... Lasts 12 frames, comes out frame 6 (the fastest Usmash period I believe) and kills at 100% regardless of where you hit with it. SHAC Uair/Nair and a Utilt that slides from a walk bolster his ability to catch landings. This all carries over to his platform pressure, along with a set of aerials that autocancel from a fullhop onto platforms. (Uair and Dair don't on higher platforms like SV's but that's not hard to work around.)

I don't see what makes Corrin's advantage better. Pit's better at catching airdodges with lingering multihits, has an easy to land vertically Usmash, still kills off an airdodge read with Bair, and has his arrows and jumps which allow him to harass people much farther up then Corrin ever could. Arrows that can easily catch otherwise easy escape options such as Flip Jump.

 

[C0rvus]

One way Corrin can catch landings is with his projectile. Varying the timing of the shot and the bite, and the size of both hitboxes makes for a strong tool in option coverage. Works on the ledge a well. It definitely brings Corrin's punish game and spacing game to a new level.

 

[Latias]

I mean, Pit's Nair is insane for completely different reasons... I'm going to say Pit's better at catching landings because he's faster, has a bunch of multihit aerials, and a faster dash attack. Pit's got frame traps and kill confirms too.



In what way is DL a mobility option...? I'm not seeing how Corrin has a better advantage since Pit's got better mobility and SHAC everything. Or kill options.

Corrin has a better airspeed though, and Corrin also has lots of autocancels..

Pit's Dair (in comparison to Corrin's Fair namely) is similar, although it simply ends in a SH and be acted out of before hitting the ground. In terms of safety while using it in a way to get a solid follow-up I think Pit's would be better, although I can't do the math right now.

Corrin's fair ends in a SH also, and can also be acted out of before hitting the ground. Landing fair also leads to DFS for a kill near the edge at certain percents.

I don't see what makes Corrin's advantage better. Pit's better at catching airdodges with lingering multihits, has an easy to land vertically Usmash, still kills off an airdodge read with Bair, and has his arrows and jumps which allow him to harass people much farther up then Corrin ever could. Arrows that can easily catch otherwise easy escape options such as Flip Jump.

Corrin's nair lingers to catch airdodges as well, has an easy to land vertically uair that isn't beaten out by basically anything, also kills off an airdodge read with bair as well as uair, and Pit's jump isn't very high.

Plus Corrin has better follows up off of his moves, Pit just kinda hits you and then it resets to neutral.

 

[ReRaze]

Plus Corrin has better follows up off of his moves, Pit just kinda hits you and then it resets to neutral.

You're describing Pit at his most basic level, His combo game isn't just dthrow uair as everyone thinks.

 

[LancerStaff]

Corrin has a better airspeed though, and Corrin also has lots of autocancels..


Corrin's fair ends in a SH also, and can also be acted out of before hitting the ground. Landing fair also leads to DFS for a kill near the edge at certain percents.


Corrin's nair lingers to catch airdodges as well, has an easy to land vertically uair that isn't beaten out by basically anything, also kills off an airdodge read with bair as well as uair, and Pit's jump isn't very high.

Plus Corrin has better follows up off of his moves, Pit just kinda hits you and then it resets to neutral.

Not sure I can trust you and I can't see myself at the moment... Don't recall Corrin's airspeed being massively better then Pit's. Corrin's is probably better, but acceleration matters a lot more.

Honest question, can Corrin get anything off of a rising SH Fair? SH Dair true combos into Pit's Nair and Uair for example.

Corrin's Nair doesn't last nearly as long and doesn't autocancel outside of a fullhop with almost no fastfall. Corrin's Uair autocancel is also bad. Autocancels are massively important for juggling with aerials, and Pit's strictly better at it.

Not really, no. I'm convinced you've never played the character...

 

[Smog Frog]

sh rising fair->uair at mid %

sh rising fair>fair from a bit earlier

 

[Nobie]

Thoughts on Bayonetta:

People are going to have to really work on their grab games to properly fight Bayonetta, and I think any character that has either a kill throw or a kill confirm out of a throw is going to have a comparatively easier time against her.

Bayonetta's defensive techniques (rolls, dodges, Witch Time, etc.) all have slow startup (4 frames) with Bat Within to even it out. Grabs don't trigger Bat Within or Witch Time (though Witch Time is immune to grabs), so it's a relatively safe option to challenge Bayonetta with. Of course, Bayonetta's dodges etc. are still faster than all grabs, so it's not like people can just grab willy nilly.

 

[Shaya]

Corrin also has lots of autocancels..

No they don't.
Forward and Down Air only.

Honest question, can Corrin get anything off of a rising SH Fair? SH Dair true combos into Pit's Nair and Uair for example.

You should play the character before making grand statements about them being 99% nullified by someone you do play.

Corrin's Nair doesn't last nearly as long and doesn't autocancel outside of a fullhop with almost no fastfall. Corrin's Uair autocancel is also bad. Autocancels are massively important for juggling with aerials, and Pit's strictly better at it.

19 frames active on Pit (21 'total') to Corrin's 14.
It doesn't auto cancel but lasts long enough with a massive god damn hitbox (like plz, a lot of the cast would trade their nair for Corrin's in a heart beat and if you can't see that UGHHH; if the aerial mobility was better I'd be crying) that makes reactively fast falling pretty easy and will be only ever be marginally less safe.

The up air isn't for juggles, that's what mindlessly nairing is for.

Seriously Corrin's nair is very very good at what it does. Pit's is good but no way is it noticeably better but likely the other way around, auto cancel (which restricts how much one can alter timing for it a lot) or otherwise. It doesn't threaten above, below and to the sides like Corrin's does and it's massive enough to not really need an auto cancel.
Think Zamus nair but THREE SIXTY DEGREES BABY. Oh and it sweeps back around again for some reason.

 

[san.]

Not sure I can trust you and I can't see myself at the moment... Don't recall Corrin's airspeed being massively better then Pit's. Corrin's is probably better, but acceleration matters a lot more.

It's better, but it's still not that good. Pit's is just bad.

Honest question, can Corrin get anything off of a rising SH Fair? SH Dair true combos into Pit's Nair and Uair for example.

SH fair->fastall into full hop fair->double jump fair->fair or uair if you're lucky

Corrin's Nair doesn't last nearly as long and doesn't autocancel outside of a fullhop with almost no fastfall. Corrin's Uair autocancel is also bad. Autocancels are massively important for juggling with aerials, and Pit's strictly better at it.

Not really, no. I'm convinced you've never played the character...

6-19 with low landing lag and good range is still great. Corrin imo just lacks the air speed to use it all too much. Uair autocancel is bad, but the FAF is good and can be used in the air well. Autocancels are just one part of everything, depends on how it can be used well. Its autocancel isn't bad enough to hurt it much at all, compared to what the other aerials already provide.

Personally, right now I think that Corrin is pretty mediocre because she lacks the movement speed to get her hitboxes where she wants to for the most part, but she has a lot of tricky and good qualities to the moves themselves. Ground moves are also more underwhelming than they appeared to me.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Thoughts on Bayonetta:

People are going to have to really work on their grab games to properly fight Bayonetta, and I think any character that has either a kill throw or a kill confirm out of a throw is going to have a comparatively easier time against her.

Bayonetta's defensive techniques (rolls, dodges, Witch Time, etc.) all have slow startup (4 frames) with Bat Within to even it out. Grabs don't trigger Bat Within or Witch Time (though Witch Time is immune to grabs), so it's a relatively safe option to challenge Bayonetta with. Of course, Bayonetta's dodges etc. are still faster than all grabs, so it's not like people can just grab willy nilly.

Absolutely. Bayonetta feels like one of Bowser's better high tier MUs. I'd say it's even solely because of LOL combo fodder, but Bowser has the edge in most every other aspect of the MU.

 

[C0rvus]

Definitely. Bowser likely has an edge in footsies, and his ability to confirm big damage from grabs is an incredible boon against Bayonetta. The big thing here is her weight and fall speed, since they mostly determine how wide the percent window is where up throw > up air is true. Anything less than a true combo and Bayonetta says "Nope. Sorry, buddy. I'm outta here!"
Ness likely does pretty well against her as well. Though her edgeguarding probably makes short work of both of them.

 

[PK Gaming]

LancerStaff, I am now thoroughly convinced of the following:

1) You have utterly no sense of reading comprehension.
2) You are incredibly biased towards Pit and biased against Corrin.
3) You repeatedly ignore relevant information by reputable users and throw out erroneous anecdotal statements just for the sake of argumentation.

I mean, you're so obviously transparent about your bias against Corrin, I have half a mind to ignore everything you say, but you continue to perpetuate this special brand of ignorance in order to push your misguided agenda. And the kicker? I don't even think Corrin is that amazing, or better than Pit even. If you had made an earnest attempt to understand the character, then I wouldn't have a problem with your posts, but as it stands, everything you say about Corrin (especially in comparison to Pit) is willfully moronic, and just complete garbage. It's almost as if you're trying to gain personal satisfaction by repeatedly dumping on the character.

 

[Kofu]

Definitely. Bowser likely has an edge in footsies, and his ability to confirm big damage from grabs is an incredible boon against Bayonetta. The big thing here is her weight and fall speed, since they mostly determine how wide the percent window is where up throw > up air is true. Anything less than a true combo and Bayonetta says "Nope. Sorry, buddy. I'm outta here!"
Ness likely does pretty well against her as well. Though her edgeguarding probably makes short work of both of them.

How does Bowser deal with Bullet Climax? Can he just crawl under it?

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's been a while since I posted in here, did someone say Pit's Nair is even comparable to Corrin's?

As a Cloud player Corrin's Nair made me singlehandedly stop spamming Nair with Cloud because I realized just how much better Corrin's was and why I shouldn't just do Nair with Cloud LOL.

It covers all around him, it's Frame 6, absurdly fast, barely any landing lag (you don't even need an AC). It almost ALWAYS guarantees a followup or good positioning, did I mention it covers like, everywhere?

Pit is a good character but his Nair is nowhere even close to Corrin's Nair or the power that move has. Which isn't to say that Pit's Nair is bad, it's quite good! But Corrin's Nair isn't just good, it's CRAZY great.

 

[G. Stache]

How does Bowser deal with Bullet Climax? Can he just crawl under it?

I believe that's where tough guy comes in. I know for a fact that Bowser refuses to flinch against Luigi's fireballs until around the 55% mark. I'd imagine tough guy would be even more noticeable against something like bullet climax.

 

[R3D3MON]

Also I'd imagine Bowser's pivot grab and command grab coming into play big-time in the MU against Bayo. Bowser's pivot grab range is huge, and Bowser has rather decent running speed.

 

[C0rvus]

Kind of a random question, but which characters do you guys think have the strongest footsies in the game? I imagine Sheik, Ryu, and Marth are among them. What about some unconventional footsies, like Peach? Just something I wanted some more experienced opinions on. I've found I enjoy the footsies aspect of Smash 4, and I tend to favor defense.

 

[Thinkaman]

Matchup charts are a fantastic way to take 10 or so maybe decent opinions and generate 47 more pretty terrible opinions.

Let's parse it down a bit. What is the absolute worst matchups in the game?

I've long said it is Little Mac vs. Meta Knight, but I'm willing to believe that Ganondorf vs. Bayo is a potent challenger to that throne.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Matchup charts are a fantastic way to take 10 or so maybe decent opinions and generate 47 more pretty terrible opinions.

Let's parse it down a bit. What is the absolute worst matchups in the game?

I've long said it is Little Mac vs. Meta Knight, but I'm willing to believe that Ganondorf vs. Bayo is a potent challenger to that throne.

I would have said LM vs MK too, this matchup is just rough, i wouldn't be surprised if a set of a tournament between these two end with 2-0 with each of the match lasting less than a minute.
Speaking of short sets, that reminds of M2K's Cloud vs Some LM at PAX South. It was about as short as it can get. Ofc the guy who fought M2K isn't even close to being as good as him, but still.
Samus vs MK/Pikachu seems to be one of the worst matchups i've seen. See: Johny Westside vs Tyrant
The small amount of hope i had for JWest was gone after Game 1, that MU seemed hopeless.

 

[Deleted member]

Matchup charts are a fantastic way to take 10 or so maybe decent opinions and generate 47 more pretty terrible opinions.

Let's parse it down a bit. What is the absolute worst matchups in the game?

I've long said it is Little Mac vs. Meta Knight, but I'm willing to believe that Ganondorf vs. Bayo is a potent challenger to that throne.

Not sure if you're talking the singular worst matchup or just worst matchups in general, but I'll guess I'll give my two cents on one.

vs.

Another Dedede post, excitinggggg
ZSS just has the tools that allow her to just mercilessly dominate in this MU. She has far superior frame data, mobility, punish game, and has a better projectile. All ticked off boxes of things Dedede hates. He has absolutely no room to breathe vs. ZSS due to his very slow aerial mobility, large hurtbox and to top that having the 2nd fastest falling speed, making him one of the easiest characters to do the ladder combo on. Gordos don't do much in this MU considering ZSS' nair and jab (which is frame 1), negate their use in most situations. Dedede already has it hella rough vs the high and top tier characters, but this is one that's just incredibly lopsided in ZSS' favor.

Also I agree with MistressRemilia when it comes to saying vs. isn't fun at all for the former. That MU is a bloodbath.

 

[Blobface]

Matchup charts are a fantastic way to take 10 or so maybe decent opinions and generate 47 more pretty terrible opinions.

Let's parse it down a bit. What is the absolute worst matchups in the game?

I've long said it is Little Mac vs. Meta Knight, but I'm willing to believe that Ganondorf vs. Bayo is a potent challenger to that throne.

Having played it myself against someone who knows the matchup well, you're not wrong. It might've been hard, yet doable, but Bullet Climax ruins everything. At the moment Ganon is just too big to get through it.

Something something Ridley.

 

[Vipermoon]

Having played it myself against someone who knows the matchup well, you're not wrong. It might've been hard, yet doable, but Bullet Climax ruins everything. At the moment Ganon is just too big to get through it.

Something something Ridley.

If he had the Melee run animation I'm sure he'd have an easier time. Man I can't stand the dumb jog animation

 

[Vyrnx]

Samus vs MK is probably one of the worst MUs in the game. Samus vs Pika is bad, but not one of the worst in the game.
I used to hear all the time that Jigglypuff's MU vs Olimar was one of the worst in the game. I don't really know the reasons, but that'd be interesting to hear about.

 

[Nobie]

Having played it myself against someone who knows the matchup well, you're not wrong. It might've been hard, yet doable, but Bullet Climax ruins everything. At the moment Ganon is just too big to get through it.

Something something Ridley.

What gets me about Bullet Arts Climax is that if you try to Down B to cut through it, you stand up briefly and just get shot, interrupting the move.

That projectile-invincible ground Down B idea Thinkaman (?) had once sounds more and more appealing.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

vs.

dedede can't beat aaa

ever

 

[Sonicninja115]

Definitely. Bowser likely has an edge in footsies, and his ability to confirm big damage from grabs is an incredible boon against Bayonetta. The big thing here is her weight and fall speed, since they mostly determine how wide the percent window is where up throw > up air is true. Anything less than a true combo and Bayonetta says "Nope. Sorry, buddy. I'm outta here!"
Ness likely does pretty well against her as well. Though her edgeguarding probably makes short work of both of them.

Her Bat within comes out frame 1 of airdodge... this is nuts...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

First off, is Bayonetta good enough to become a top tier character?

Second of all...this quote I guess.

You're describing Pit at his most basic level, His combo game isn't just dthrow uair as everyone thinks.

Alot less basic than everyone thinks

Also, does this thread really need a Pit vs Corrin or Kid Icarus/Fire Emblem discussion topic instead od admiring he beauty of the characters themselves(or atleast be glad any of them are even in this game)?

 

[T4ylor]

@Feelicks Used to think ZSS was D3's worst, but air dodging goes a long way in that match up. I now feel that Fox is the worst to play against with him by far. You have to make some real hard reads to stop him from playing keep away with those lasers.

Just noticed Aunt Jemima 's post. Yeh, forgot about Mega Man. He's just as bad. Been playing Bowser exclusively for that match up for the longest time.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I believe that's where tough guy comes in. I know for a fact that Bowser refuses to flinch against Luigi's fireballs until around the 55% mark. I'd imagine tough guy would be even more noticeable against something like bullet climax.

Yep. Bullet Climax is nothing more than Fox lasers for Bowser. Incidentally he can also crawl underneath it about half of the way to Bayo too. Charged Bullet Climax can break it but that's not a factor onstage.

 

[NairWizard]

Because no one else took the mantle and because I believe in education and discussion, a response to Larry about Link vs. Sheik:

Larry, there was a time when Diddy Kong was #1 under the sun and you also believed that Link served a soft counter. Do you remember? My response from back then:

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-157#post-18074781

Times haven't really changed. I recommend reevaluating the logic you used back then compared to the logic you're using now. (it's similar stuff, generally focused on tunnel-visioning to prediction and anticipating misplays from the opponent).

So let me tell you something about this: Never have I been defeated by a Sheik player.

And I have never lost to a Link player as Sheik. Competing frequently in locals and tournaments and playing against high- and top-level players. I don't even main Sheik. Moot point unless you are yourself high or top level or capable of competing against those kinds of players.

Aside from Sheik's usual quips, what more is there for her against Link?

What more? Better frame data, mobility, recovery, and kill confirms, of course. The four most important things in smash? Or did we forget about that?

Link, on the other hand, has a surprise when it comes to CQC, which he can win if he manages to activate his attacks before Sheik does.

So you are saying that in order for Link to win, the Link player has to execute his attack before the Sheik player executes hers on a consistent basis? I.e. that you basically have to be better than your opponent on multiple levels--both capable of executing faster and of correctly predicting the opponent's choice of action (while avoiding being baited out by a shield, roll, or short hop airdodge)--in order to stand a chance?

If so, then what you are saying is essentially that the Link player will beat the Sheik player if the Link player is much better. Which goes without saying. This is not Little Mac vs. MK.

With recovery, Link can actually challenge Sheik's recoveries; if Sheik goes for a Vanish, Link can go for a D-Air into a potential "No-Tech Zone" stage spike.

Good Sheiks Vanish from above the stage rather than from below. No ledgesnap vulnerability to exploit. Link doesn't edgeguard Sheik. The Sheik will only Bouncing Fish to the stage if it seems like a free snap to the ledge, which it might be since Link's ground speed is blah and he might not get there in time.

With Sheik's aerial options, she actually has some very poor options when coming to the ground against Link. While ZSS has Flip Jump and Ryu has Focus Attack, if Sheik uses up her Bouncing Fish and second jump, the only remote things she has left are her D-Air, which can be beaten by Link's U-Air or F-Smash (if she lands), her Needles, which are not good in the air or Vanish, which would only lead back to the F-Smash or Spin Attack.

This situation requires Sheik to expend both her double jump and Bouncing Fish, by which point she has probably safely returned to the ground as Link's poor mobility won't allow him to catch up to her good airspeed. And if that didn't work, she can just drift away and f-air or n-air (cancels 1 frame after the hitbox) to protect her landing.

Let's talk about platforms.

Let's. If Link is on a platform and Sheik is below him, Sheik can pressure him with complete impunity against the majority of his options (he can't just spin attack, no, and his OOS game is really poor against tomahawking if she lands on the platform besides him), and he's too slow through the air to simply jump away. Tipper up-smash on a landing or platform is also extremely potent against characters with mediocre horizontal movement options. Sheik does better vs. Link than Link does against Sheik in this situation.

If Link is under Sheik in a platform, expect a shield being broken after two F-Tilts and an F-Air if a Sheik player, if on Battlefield for example, stays in shield too long. If they roll, F-Air will hit them. If they jump to another platform before Link can pull out F-Air, Link might use a different aerial or attack altogether.

Sheik can just jump away from this hypothetical platform situation, and Link will generally be too slow to catch. She can also fall through the platform and f-air or grab, because Link's frame data is that bad. Link has to make a prediction or react super quickly, so most of the time the Sheik player will come out on top.

As for get ups, I forgot to mention Link's three best get ups. Link has F-Air, which despite being F14, is still very powerful against Sheik when he gets back up. He also has Z-Air, which, if both hits connect, can lead into a grab by Link (I've figured out from new matches that Z-Air can lead into a grab on opponents). He lastly has Bombs, which just makes Sheik either shield for a potential grab or get hit for a potential follow up.

There's no way that you are throwing out any of these options against a competent Sheik player while you are on the ledge. You said it yourself, f-air is frame 14. Sheik just has to hold shield, and Link is powerless to do anything. Even just a normal getup is risky. What good is standing up at the ledge against an f27 FAF standing grab that tears through spotdodges (she just grabs twice in a row, simple)? And Link doesn't even have a real grab in that situation. He'll get grabbed first. Actually he doesn't even have a jab in this situation. Come to think of it, Link might be one of the worst characters in the game against Sheik on the ledge. How does he get up?

Link doesn't beat Sheik or go even. It's at least a +1 in Sheik's favor, probably +2 or worse. Link doesn't have the frame data or mobility to compare.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

@Feelicks Used to think ZSS was D3's worst, but air dodging goes a long way in that match up. I now feel that Fox is the worst to play against with him by far. You have to make some real hard reads to stop him from playing keep away with those lasers.

Just noticed Aunt Jemima 's post. Yeh, forgot about Mega Man. He's just as bad. Been playing Bowser exclusively for that match up for the longest time.

At least against Fox you can try to play mid-range before he plows through D3's papier-mâché defense?

Mega Man completely ignores that. I think he's a worse MU than Fox, tbh.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Thoughts on Bayonetta:

People are going to have to really work on their grab games to properly fight Bayonetta, and I think any character that has either a kill throw or a kill confirm out of a throw is going to have a comparatively easier time against her.

Bayonetta's defensive techniques (rolls, dodges, Witch Time, etc.) all have slow startup (4 frames) with Bat Within to even it out. Grabs don't trigger Bat Within or Witch Time (though Witch Time is immune to grabs), so it's a relatively safe option to challenge Bayonetta with. Of course, Bayonetta's dodges etc. are still faster than all grabs, so it's not like people can just grab willy nilly.

What you want to do is stay just outside of her (very short) grab range, while being in your grab range. If you can do that, you will severely limit her options all around.

 

[Rizen]

@ Last few pages:

Sheik is at least a -2 MU for Link. She has great tools for getting in with BF and destroys him with combos. Link out-camps her with SH projectiles but her agility and needles lessen this considerably. Sheik's stupidly good recovery mixups and Vanish's intangibility mean Link has a harder time gimping her than vice-versa. Link does benefit from platforms, I'd choose BF vs Sheik but the bigger the stage the more Sheik can do cartwheels around Link and the better needles are for camping him. Link lacks fast GTFO options in the air and on the ground (jab and Nair both being frame 7, Bair frame 6, with a 7 frame jumpsquat thankyouverymuchSakurai). If Link gets an early kill he does better but if Sheik gets the lead approaching her is hell. Link isn't helpless but it's very bad.

Link has a slight advantage vs DDD. Maybe +2 but no more.

/imo

PS I'm getting serious Déjà vu here.

 

[R3D3MON]

Samus vs MK/Pikachu seems to be one of the worst matchups i've seen. See: Johny Westside vs Tyrant
The small amount of hope i had for JWest was gone after Game 1, that MU seemed hopeless.

Yeah Samus gets destroyed by MK for various reasons. His big frame and floaty nature means he is very susceptible to dying from the top (MKs can really take advantage of uair > Shuttle Loop at mid-high % from the air). And the MK ladder death combo works on Samus starting from 15%...

 

[Zelder]

Yeah Samus gets destroyed by MK for various reasons. His big frame and floaty nature means he is very susceptible to dying from the top (MKs can really take advantage of uair > Shuttle Loop at mid-high % from the air). And the MK ladder death combo works on Samus starting from 15%...

This isn't super important in the grand scheme of things, but you do know that Samus is a woman, right?

 

[Smog Frog]

hey man sometimes people just like using improper gender pronouns

back on track, where does rank among the swords(wo)men based on week 2 impressions? is s/he level?

 

[R3D3MON]

This isn't super important in the grand scheme of things, but you do know that Samus is a woman, right?

Yeah. I still make this gender confusion because I inherently see ZSS and samus as completely different characters, and Samus is bulky and less agile than ZSS, so I make a gender confusion (sorry for sounding like I biased person but my mind is weird ).

 

[meleebrawler]

Kind of a random question, but which characters do you guys think have the strongest footsies in the game? I imagine Sheik, Ryu, and Marth are among them. What about some unconventional footsies, like Peach? Just something I wanted some more experienced opinions on. I've found I enjoy the footsies aspect of Smash 4, and I tend to favor defense.

There's basically two kinds of footsies in Smash. The first and standard type being range footsies, commonly used by swordfighters. Notable non-swordie characters able to do this well are , , , , and especially , whose footsie tools run the gamut from combo starters (jab. dtilt) and safe kill moves (fair, dsmash).

The other type of footsies being mobility footsies, where a character's normally average at best footsie tools are augmented by their specs (usually dash speed). Includes , , , , and .

Of course, the very best characters (, , ) tend to have advantages of both.

LancerStaff, I am now thoroughly convinced of the following:

1) You have utterly no sense of reading comprehension.
2) You are incredibly biased towards Pit and biased against Corrin.
3) You repeatedly ignore relevant information by reputable users and throw out erroneous anecdotal statements just for the sake of argumentation.

I mean, you're so obviously transparent about your bias against Corrin, I have half a mind to ignore everything you say, but you continue to perpetuate this special brand of ignorance in order to push your misguided agenda. And the kicker? I don't even think Corrin is that amazing, or better than Pit even. If you had made an earnest attempt to understand the character, then I wouldn't have a problem with your posts, but as it stands, everything you say about Corrin (especially in comparison to Pit) is willfully moronic, and just complete garbage. It's almost as if you're trying to gain personal satisfaction by repeatedly dumping on the character.

There are only two sets of characters that can truly be compared back-to-back. / and /. Because past those, even pairs like Mario/Doc or Marth/Roy play very differently, you can't say one is "strictly" better.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Characters that excel at whiff punishment and poking/counterpoking, two big aspects of footsies, would be the likes of Ryu and Wario.

 

[bc1910]

There are only two sets of characters that can truly be compared back-to-back. / and /. Because past those, even pairs like Mario/Doc or Marth/Roy play very differently, you can't say one is "strictly" better.

It's funny because even with the Pits being SO similar, it's very hard to say which is strictly better after DP's side B buff. Dark Pit's high damage arrows and better side B are useful tools, but Pit's arrows are significantly better at edgeguarding and his Ftilt is much better.

I think Marcina is the only case of one character being a near-strict upgrade of another.