Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[ReRaze]

Indeed. Sonic vs Megaman is about even, but spindash doesn't do much in the MU. Guess how many sonics start spacing ftilt, doing different movement fakeouts, start walk-powershielding non pellets and dash shielding pellets? Its less than the amount that just keep ramming into pellets with spindash and then ask me how its even possible to beat megaman with sonic :B

Still you are putting sonic at a major disadvantage when you nullify arguably his best tool, i mean a sonic without spindash isn't sonic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

3x Netherlands
2x USA
2x Germany
1x UK

Sadly the regional variety isn't as good as the character variety. 9th place also has 2x Germany/Austria and 1x UK. Izaw's the only player in top 12 who's not from any of these regions.

 

[Mario766]

Sonic doesn't have bad matchups [he has a bazillion even matchups though].

He just has a ton of bad players who lose as soon as you figure out how to deal with spindash.

Ike is still a bad MU, theory and results both show this, regardless of spindash being used or not. The only Sonic who has beaten an Ike at the top level is Seagull Joe vs San. Every other time the MU comes up, the Sonic either loses horribly *Rango vs 6WX* or the set is close with Ike taking it *Ryo vs 6WX*

Sonic has NO real way to approach Ike, he can't do it without spindash, and spindash only increases the problem: How does a character with no way to get through a sword approach a character with super huge hitboxes, damage and kill power. Add on the fact my best approach option involves me going into a position where I can't shield, and has a linear approach option.


Add onto the fact N-Air/F-Air, our two best options in the neutral for the MU, BOTH got buffed, so it's even easier to swat Sonic out of the air and take 20-30 percent for trying to approach us. Sonic can't force an approach either, as his only answer is to yet again try to approach into a sword hitbox. AGAIN.


On the topic of Ike buffs.


This F-Air buff...

I've never had so much fun diagonal spacing characters like Cloud in all my time playing Smash. Cloud has very little answers in an air-air battle if Ike isn't directly above him because he literally has NO diagonal options that beat F-Air. The MU got so much better for Ike with the F-Air hitbox buff, if Limit wasn't so easy to get I swear we'd win the MU.

 

[Routa]

3x Netherlands
2x USA
2x Germany
1x UK

Sadly the regional variety isn't as good as the character variety. 9th place also has 2x Germany/Austria and 1x UK. Izaw's the only player in top 12 who's not from any of these regions.

I think it might have something to do with character choices. For example Finland has very strong players that play not the most optimal character like the one Lil Mac player (whose name I don't remember) that 3 stocked a ZSS main (whose name I also forgot), but got demolished by Bowser main (I'm not that great with names).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ike is still a bad MU, theory and results both show this, regardless of spindash being used or not.

I'm not actually arguing that Sonic doesn't have any losing matchups. I think he's like -1 against ZSS, Rosalina and possibly Ike for starters.

 

[Mario766]

I'm not actually arguing that Sonic doesn't have any losing matchups. I think he's like -1 against ZSS, Rosalina and possibly Ike for starters.

Ah.

I took 'No bad MUs' as 'Nothing worse than even.'


My bad.

 

[bc1910]

3x Netherlands
2x USA
2x Germany
1x UK

Sadly the regional variety isn't as good as the character variety. 9th place also has 2x Germany/Austria and 1x UK. Izaw's the only player in top 12 who's not from any of these regions.

To be fair, that's still 4 different regions in top 8. You'd expect the 3 strongest regions in the tournament to appear multiple times. I'd say it's a bonus that the UK is there to add regional variety.

Genesis 3 top 8 only had 5 regions (it featured SoCal, Tristate, Japan, Texas and New England). But I guess that is still more regional variety. You do have a point, I just don't think this is hugely different from the regional variety of other majors. I guess the disappointment comes from more countries than usual being present?

 

[Tri Knight]

Beast 6 top 8:

Winners:

Esam vs. Wilksy15

MVD vs. Mr. R

Losers:

Istudying vs. Sodrek

S1-14 vs. Light

So the characters in this top 8 are:

:2

:1

:1

:1

:1

:1

And, most importantly

:1


Izaw got 9th too. Doesn't he main Link?

As far as I know, he still does main Link. Whether or not he used Link in this tournament, idk. Very interesting if he did make 9th with Link.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Genesis 3 top 8 only had 5 regions (it featured SoCal, Tristate, Japan, Texas and New England). But I guess that is still more regional variety. You do have a point, I just don't think this is hugely different from the regional variety of other majors. I guess the disappointment comes from more countries than usual being present?

G3 top 8 actually had even less variety than that. There were 4 people from SoCal/Pacific West [Zero, Larry, Void and Fow], 3 from NJ/NY/Tristate~ish area [Nairo, dabuz and Marss] and one from Japan [Ranai] in top 8. That's incredibly one-sided for a tournament that had more than a thousand entrants.

Legitimately happy about UK's respectable showing at Beast though [despite Miller having an off-day]. I remember back when EU made the transition from fodder to high-tier region back in Brawl and it had a lot to do with France, Netherlands and Germany starting to compete against each other rather than just sticking within their own region each. UK joining the mix and doing well can only make things better!

 

[Wintermelon43]

Is singles going to start now?

 

[teddystalin]

G3 top 8 actually had even less variety than that. There were 4 people from SoCal/Pacific West [Zero, Larry, Void and Fow], 3 from NJ/NY/Tristate~ish area [Nairo, dabuz and Marss] and one from Japan [Ranai] in top 8. That's incredibly one-sided for a tournament that had more than a thousand entrants.

The distance between Las Vegas and San Jose is larger than the distance between London and Paris. It's nearly as far as Berlin to Paris, especially factoring in the lack of effective public/cheap transportation. As for New England, Marss goes over to NYC around as often as the Germans go over to France to take their prize pools. Players from New England go to different locals and regionals than Tristate players, same with Vegas and SoCal.

If you start to abstract the boundaries between reasons to the point of absurdity, you can make any point you want. It's like saying that there's no diversity in the BEAST 6 top 8 because everyone speaks a Germanic language. FOW and Marss doing as well as they did was hugely validating for two small and overlooked scenes - please don't diminish that accomplishment.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I don't believe this. A lot of top-level Sheiks have struggled with Diddy Kong at some point. For instance, Mr-R's record vs. top Diddies is pretty abysmal. Vinnie was one of the best at the MU, and could actually make it look bad at times, but even he succumbed to ZeRo's Diddy in the end. Even VoiD almost lost to Ryuji in pools on his way to 4th place at Genesis; Ryuji only finished 65th.

"Dabuz has literally never lost to a ____." You can fill in that blank with a number of good characters AFAIK. When the 3rd best player in the world gets double-eliminated in a MU considered to be 6-4, that's kind of noteworthy even if he was playing poorly.

I recall Nietono holding his own vs. Dabuz (he went 0-2, but both games were fairly close EDIT: I lied, game 2 wasn't close, though Game 1 was). As strong as Nietono could be with more effort, he hasn't been taking this game seriously for a long enough amount of time to be comparable to Dabuz skill-wise.

The thing about the Diddy/Shiek MU is that On-stage, it is 60/40 or 55/44 Diddy's favor, but off-stage it is 60/40 Shieks favor. Shieks definitely win off-stage, and on-stage it is slightly unfavorable. Her needles, BF and Aerials are very difficult for Diddy to challenge. while on-stage, he has the Banana, SH Fair, dtilt and MF to make up for what would be a disadvantage. These moves are really good vs Shiek and hurt her gameplan a lot. Also, Dtilt-Fsmash is really easy to connect on her for some reason...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If you start to abstract the boundaries between reasons to the point of absurdity, you can make any point you want. It's like saying that there's no diversity in the BEAST 6 top 8 because everyone speaks a Germanic language. FOW and Marss doing as well as they did was hugely validating for two small and overlooked scenes - please don't diminish that accomplishment.

... not sure if serious.

 

[Sonicninja115]

As far as I know, he still does main Link. Whether or not he used Link in this tournament, idk. Very interesting if he did make 9th with Link.

He still uses Link.

 

[Izaw]

I went all Link got 9th

 

[teddystalin]

... not sure if serious.

I'm serious when I say you shouldn't just squint at a map and say New England and New Jersey are the same scene for purposes of top 8 diversity.

 

[Flux0r]

Congrats man!

 

[Wintermelon43]

Oh my god Istudying....... that was great hype holy crap.

 

[Man Li Gi]

My god...istudying is a beast. Footstool and others in tow to make the game exciting.

 

[FullMoon]

Sweet jesus iStudying is going crazy.

He really shows that Fox is screwed if he has to go for the Up-B to recover against Gren.

 

[Y2Kay]

That match vs Sodrek.......


It encapsulated everything I love about Greninja. He played really scrappy and pulled out the win! I'm so proud!

 

[bc1910]

That was one of the most hype Sm4sh sets I've ever seen.

istudying and Greninja are both awesome.

 

[Y2Kay]

I just want to remind everyone that Fox is usually considered one of Greninja's worst matchups.

But istudying beat one of the best Foxes on the planet anway

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm actually surprised it was this close considering how many tricks Dennis had up his sleeve that Sodrek never encountered before. There were also times where it became blatantly obvious that istudy was outreading him most of the set.

I just hope he hasn't depleted his MP yet.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has been doing significantly better against Fox over the last couple of months, to the point where I'd say Diddy is a worse MU than Fox for us.

I'm actually surprised it was this close considering how many tricks Dennis had up his sleeve that Sodrek never encountered before. There were also times where it became blatantly obvious that istudy was outreading him most of the set.

I just hope he hasn't depleted his MP yet.

Here here. I think he has a good shot against wilksy, but I don't like his odds vs the winner of MVD and Light (which I think will be MVD). Hope he hasn't burned himself out.

To be fair, he could be play better than ever coming off a set like that.

 

[Das Koopa]

Greninja assured 5th at least. Pretty good finish even if this is a lower level Major, definitely strong evidence of him being in higher mid.

Whether or not Light loses to MVD might play a big factor in if iStudying makes the podium.

 

[deepseadiva]

When players suggest Sheik doesn't have even match ups it's obvious projecting.

It's an easier story to tell yourself that S-tier is untouchable than to accept an evenly matched loss.

 

[Marcbri]

3x Netherlands
2x USA
2x Germany
1x UK

Sadly the regional variety isn't as good as the character variety. 9th place also has 2x Germany/Austria and 1x UK. Izaw's the only player in top 12 who's not from any of these regions.

Most top players from Spain and France didn't go though, and they're two of the strongest regions. I'd still say Germany is the strongest region in EU.

 

[DE235]

I went all Link got 9th

Great job man.

 

[ARISTOS]

is so cool man

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja top 4 hype

 

[Nobie]

Re: Bayonetta's strong jab

Remember when Little Mac's jab did the same amount of damage while also being Frame 1 with trample?

Ha ha ha

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Most top players from Spain and France didn't go though, and they're two of the strongest regions. I'd still say Germany is the strongest region in EU.

Why did Greward dip?

Edit: I think at this point it's somewhat unreasonabe to assume that you'll have all european sub-regions represented at one tournament with their respective top representants.

 

[Flux0r]

Aww, ESAM guessed wrong at the wrong time. Shame.

 

[Marcbri]

Why did Greward dip?

Edit: I think at this point it's somewhat unreasonabe to assume that you'll have all european sub-regions represented at one tournament with their respective top representants.

Personal stuff :/

It'd be possible if it was in a more central country like France imo.

 

[Das Koopa]

iStudying beat MVD 3-1.

Intense set but the writing's on the wall for the rest of the tourney barring an upset. Nonetheless, Greninja Top 3 in a low-key Major? Pretty great for the character's future.

 

[FullMoon]

iStudying holy hell.

He's blowing up all my expectations

 

[HoSmash4]

Netherlands is top.

 

[LancerStaff]

When people learn to react to frame 7 side b they will presumably be cyborgs. You can twitch react to something that fast (maybe) but you can't discriminate between signal and noise.

Either there's a high level of sarcasm in the post (honestly not sure) or they mean to deal with the move and outright react to it...

 

[Das Koopa]

iStudying taking ESAM to game 5

wowoowowow

This is pretty huge