Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Mazdamaxsti]

Jumping in again, Toon Link having one of the best kill throws, having great bomb setups that will most likely lead to a kill, decently useful smashes (fast U-smash, gimmicky f-smash, roll read d-smash) makes him have good kill power. His overall pressure makes his avoidable kill options a lot more likely to hit, with traps, stage pressure and stage position, and fear.

 

[adom4]

Ganon things. Corrin's recovery is especially difficult to edgeguard if it's the up b. The multihit properties as Corrin comes up at a diagonal angle is especially difficult. I stress that it's important to tipman EARLY, so the last weak hitbox does hit Corrin as he/she collides into you, and sends Corrin back to the depths of hell.

I don't really feel like it's THAT hard, it's not Roy/Falcon levels of free but once you get used to the timing Corrin's recovery isn't terribly difficult to edgeguard.

 

[Browny]

Mewtwo things:

1) A lot of people including myself were theorycrafting Mewtwo to be a lot better than common perception, so it's not like the theory about Mewtwo was wrong. Theory fueled results, results further fueled theory, and it got to a point where Mewtwo has won a major national tournament before the majority of the roster. I'm not saying that Abadango sat down and read Smashboards and came away a champion, but robust development of a character (and thus the increasing potential for them to make a splash) comes from having players inspired to do more with the character. High placings can do this, but so can theory. If players sense the potential of a character, and if they're rewarded in some way for their efforts, then it inspires others to use the character as well.

Incidentally, this is why I think character loyalists are important to games, even if they're not playing the best of the best. All it really takes is one DKWill to spark the fire in other Gorillas.

2) Is it safe to call Mewtwo a high risk, high effort, high reward character now?

3) Mewtwo has a slow double jump, but you can cover it to a certain extent with air dodge (M2 disappears even before it starts to actually move). Also. Mewtwo emerges from the air dodge pretty much at the height of his second jump, almost as if it were designed that way...

Also, a lot of people arent aware that Abadango has used Mewtwo in tournaments since day 1. People think he switched from pac to wario to rosa to mk to mewtwo, but his mewtwo was in the lab before he ever gave people metaknightmares.

I'm now of the opinion that Mewtwo isnt a character of tricks that relies on MU inexperience to win. I really think Mewtwo is one of the most honest characters in the game.
IMO, 'dishonest' characters that rely on matchup inexperience, tricks and stupid imbalance issues are the likes of and 'honest' characters just simply beat you out with better options most of the time like . I think Mewtwo legitimately falls into the latter category now where dtilt, fair, shadowball, and uthrow are so good to the point that those moves can beat many characters and nothing else is needed.

I used to think that Mewtwo was hard to play, but as I am very set in my belief that effort required = difficulty to play = difficulty to win = viability, him being so much more easier to win with now kind of makes it hard to suggest that he requires 'high effort' to win with. Being a fast sword-type character with a very powerful projectile, combos, kill throw and amazing recovery kind of seems like an easy-mode character.

I don't believe Mewtwo is high risk high reward, hes just light and that's all there is to it. Many of his kills moves have extremely low or 0 risk and he doesn't have to over-extend to do high damage combos.

 

[Jalil]

While pacman does benefit off of matchup inexperience more than most, I wouldn't call him dishonest. Someone who has a lot of experience playing as or against pac won't get caught by some things but traps aren't all pacman has.

 

[Browny]

While pacman does benefit off of matchup inexperience more than most, I wouldn't call him dishonest. Someone who has a lot of experience playing as or against pac won't get caught by some things but traps aren't all pacman has.

Normally I would agree with you but I've seen one too many pac players going for timeouts basically as soon as the match starts. I feel its like cloud mains that go to smashville, get one hit in and run away to the platform to charge limit the entire match. It certainly doesn't feel like an honest way to fight if you ask me.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Green offstage is free, edgeguard her or forever hold ur peace.
Otherwise you need to literally stand in the middle of the stage where the green is or you'll die for it.
This is from a Bowser player, I'm sure shorter characters don't have this problem but it happened to me when I played Cloud and Bowser so idk.

As a Samus player, I drop a bomb, to cover and grab them. The tether grab completely covers dragon lunge. The bomb -> d-air true combos on ledgenap if you know the placement and beats out the insane hitboxes.
I feel your pain, but really it's a matchup thing, there are options that negate it. (Samus grab, bomb, CS).
The hitboxes are absurd, but we still have Rosa nonsense after many patches keep in mind. I do think Corrin needs hitbox reduction.

 

[Ulevo]

IMO, 'dishonest' characters that rely on matchup inexperience, tricks and stupid imbalance issues are the likes of and 'honest' characters just simply beat you out with better options most of the time like

Captain Falcon and Corrin are not honest characters. Captain Falcon is one of the most polarizing mid tier characters because he wins any match up that does not have a reliable answer to his absurd dash grab speed and obnoxious dash attack hitbox 50/50, but gets wrecked off stage by many characters as long as the player is aware of their edge guard tools. Corrin on the other hand preys on you by killing you at the ledge at 60% or landing Dragon Lunge tippers that cannot be reacted to, or pulling out a Dragon Surge when you least expect it to take your stock.

They both have distinct weaknesses but this by no means make them honest. They just happen to struggle against characters with better neutral tools.

 

[Peppermint1201]

How related even is this discussion of "honesty" to character viability anyway? That aside, the use of the word "honest" seems to muddy the waters because it is very subjective. If we really want to keep talking about "honesty" I'd use a more objective word like "fundamental" or "straightforward".

 

[sedrf]

honest is a stupid word that is misused most of the time.

 

[PK Gaming]

We've had this discussion before

Basically, it's pointless to through terms like "honest" in a game like Smash, where pretty much every single character (yes, even the bad ones) have dishonest tools.

Mario is definitely not honest, and it's astounding how often this character gets away with being referred to as such (that and "All Around". Mario is rushdown, not All Around lol).

 

[KamikazePotato]

Every character that I don't play is dishonest.


But for real though - there isn't a single top tier character without some weird jank/trick that's annoying to deal with, which is what people are referring to when they say 'dishonest', I think. I'm surprised that someone would list Corrin as 'honest' when that character is entirely comprised of janky moves. Mario too, although to a lesser degree.

In general, if you're an entirely 'honest' character, you're probably low tier.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's interesting that the term "honest" is relative.

In Melee, Mario is probably the most honest character. Mang0 loves to describe Mario as a super fun character that emphasizes movement and neutral, but who basically has to work hard for every bit of damage. In a game of Foxes and Falcos though, the honest of his tools barely land in mid tier.

In Smash 4, though, there's more of a debate because Mario's mobility and frame data are now top-class even if his game plan is kind of similar, and it lets him get away with a lot of things he wouldn't be able to otherwise. Randy up smashes in Melee were basically an invitation to get beat down, but now they're so safe that they can just be thrown out with much less risk.

 

[Browny]

How related even is this discussion of "honesty" to character viability anyway? That aside, the use of the word "honest" seems to muddy the waters because it is very subjective. If we really want to keep talking about "honesty" I'd use a more objective word like "fundamental" or "straightforward".

But you do need a word to describe the likes of pacman, cloud and bayo players who go for timeouts, hit-and-run to charge limit and do dash-upb-divekick the entire match respectively.

Cloud is extremely straightforward. You beat them with your superior range, speed and power. He has almost 0 mixups. He can be played in such a way that is in many ways, unfair that few characters have reliable answers to it.

I stick by saying falcon is 'honest' because he cant decide 'I'm going to play a certain highly obnoxious way abusing a certain move and its up to you to play according to my rules or lose horribly' which describes bayo, cloud, rosa and pacman well.

Same as corrin. What does corrin have that is jank? Shulks counter is in some ways, more powerful. Dragon lunge tipper is good but it doesnt invalidate chartacters approaches. Having a few very good moves doesnt make a character dishonest, corrins need to rely on a lot of different moves and playstyles to win throughout a match.
Also theres no correlation whatsoever between 'jank' and low/high tier. are all full of it.

 

[TheGlove]

Normally I would agree with you but I've seen one too many pac players going for timeouts basically as soon as the match starts. I feel its like cloud mains that go to smashville, get one hit in and run away to the platform to charge limit the entire match. It certainly doesn't feel like an honest way to fight if you ask me.

Time outs are a legitimate way to win, getting a life lead and then forcing the other player to play your game is not only legitimate but smart, and honestly pretty difficult against a player that is good at reading your movement. If it was a real problem, we would see a rise of time out Pacs placing well similar to stallager in the age of customs. Timing out happens in other fighters but do to the shorter rounds and the more limited stage and movement, they seem more hype.

Edit: Also hasn't one of the biggest complaints by Pac Mains been that all his stuff has counter play that most characters can do? Ive seen good Luigis beat good Pacs despite that matchup being frustrating as hell.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

SHI-G is uploading more videos from Umebura 22. There's a lot of sets worth watching, especially if you want to see counterplay against Bayonetta and Mewtwo.

 

[HoSmash4]

Dishonest/Honest is a bad term for 'Risk:Reward ratio'

 

[Pazzo.]

There's literally no breaking any rules in a video game (barring glitches, but whatever).

So everyone and everything in Smash is "honest". To hell with fairness and equality.

All's fair in love, war, and Smash Bros.

 

[PK Gaming]

Smash 1.04's metagame was a thing

 

[Dabuz]

He already said that he let results play a part in the tier list, as they should of course. We're not seeing anything revolutionary with his criteria. Depends on your definition of "horribly" out of place, but Greninja is in the wrong group.



Dabuz thinks Greninja has the theory to be higher but doesn't have the results for it. But while Greninja does lack top level USA rep, we're not talking about Jigglypuff here. This is a character that is a top 15, possibly top 10 threat in Europe, with decent results in Japan and actually better regional results in the USA than he's given credit for (thanks to Gibus, Venia and IceArrow). Dabuz is not fully appreciating what the character has achieved and the placement is simply 3-4 months out of date.

Greninja's placement caused a big reaction judging by this thread (not including myself, there were plenty of raised eyebrows) and Twitter. There's plenty of agreement for Greninja being higher. I don't know what else the character has to do to get recognised when characters above him like Pit aren't doing much in the USA, and Pit's Japanese placements are comparable to Greninja's European ones.

As I said, I rarely bother to defend Greninja these days and I appreciate that results speak louder than words, but his results aren't being properly appreciated here. To put him in the wrong group just doesn't make any sense.

And yeah, the hipocracy of the Pika/Ryu placements on the official list is frightening, but to be fair that list's for a previous patch and had lots of collaborators.

Shut up about Greninja lol. He has results with Beast, but when you look at matchup per matchup results vs. top players, the only thing we really know is that he may do well against pikachu and diddy and probably does bad vs. Sheik too. Istudying also came to Pound and IIRC he got 33rd losing to K9 and Seagull joe, which may prove that greninja does poorly vs. Sheik and sonic. (Which is a really bad set of matchups to lose heavily to anyway considering how common they are) I also got to fight him with my Rosa and hour 1 mewtwo (albeit it was after the tournament so I understand exhaustion) and it wasn't looking good for your frog buddy. Heck, IIRC Istudying struggles with a mario player in his region too? AFAIK there aren't any other good examples of Greninja vs. other common matchups to validate these claims.

When I say that I base the list of matchups, I mostly avoid the theoretical spread where Greninja goes even vs. everybody except two characters until I see that theory in action. I go off of per matchup results which gives us a better look at how he would do across a variety of tournaments and matchups. The higher up a character it, the better their matchup spread has been proven to be. If this was solely placings based, then the entire second tier (Except maybe ness?) would be above Fox, Sonic, and Mewtwo, but it's not, it uses placings as a way to gauge how effective the characters are vs. a variety of characters in a per matchup basis. So back to Greninja, he's a character where we have a small sample size of top level play and that sample isn't particularly great. If you really feel this strongly, please, show me the results of notable greninja mains in terms of who they fought that is also notable.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

TheGoodGuava I suggest you reading this regarding Marcina.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BYjEF6_WbpFDwdzlXf3o6rpaBOnhNvrlYWQpdg6xNfE/edit?pref=2&pli=1

"Marth’s Ftilt does 8/12% (sourspot/tipper). Lucina’s does 11% no matter what and trust me, you’re not going to land enough tippers to make up for the difference between Marth’s sour spots and Lucina’s balanced damage"
Sorry I just sorta stopped reading right there. A good Marth player will be striving for optimal spacing on everything leading to a higher damage output. He can edgeguard and kill much earlier than Lucina can even dream of. Also, because of his higher damage output, his tipper aerials, tilts, and smashes are all much safer on shield than Lucina's which results in a a stronger neutral state.

Its a common misconception that because Lucina lacks a tipper that she doesn't need to space when thats not true, all sword users need to space. Its basically now they play the neutral (one of the reasons Roy's is so bad) and because her aerials aren't extremely powerful at the tip they aren't going to be as safe and aren't going to be as threatening in any case.

On the topic of MUs the only MU i would use Lucina over Marth in is Sonic and thats only because spacing tippers against a character that fast is annoying for me

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ngl this matchup looks super annoying for Bayonetta

 

[Pazzo.]

Ngl this matchup looks super annoying for Bayonetta

Didn't Nario loose to a Robin while playing Bayo?

Due to her poor neutral, Bayonetta may just be countered by zoners.

 

[C0rvus]

If you're referring to his set with Mr. II, Nairo played Zero Suit Samus.

I think being countered is overstating it, just because her reward once she gets in should be more than enough to outweigh her annoyance in winning neutral. As time goes on, I think Mega Man could end up being one of her hardest matchups, along with Diddy and Sheik. Anyone who can consistently win neutral against her has a good shot, but it's easier when they can convert from neutral into good damage, which is not usually the case with Mega Man.

 

[Joey T.]

So, long ago in this thread (or even the older one) it was discussed what was the perfect main combination in order to cover the most matchups in the best way possible, and the most shared opinion was that maining and was the "most optimal option". But as we all know, the metagame has changed a lot since then, and I wanted to ask your opinion on this matter with the current meta. What would be the "best" combination of characters (not more than two) in this meta to main?

I'm sorry if this post doesn't belong to this thread or if I'm changing the topic too suddenly, but I think it's an interesting point to discuss, even more now with the current matchup-based tier list of Dabuz.

 

[FullMoon]

Istudying also came to Pound and IIRC he got 33rd losing to K9 and Seagull joe, which may prove that greninja does poorly vs. Sheik and sonic.

I actually agree with most of what you said so I won't say much on this topic especially because you're probably really tired of Greninja by this point but according to K9, iStudy beat him in most of the friendlies they played if that accounts for anything. Also just for the sake of nitpicking, he got 25th

Greninja does do poorly vs Sonic tho, it's probably worse than Sheik now, but I don't think it's bad enough to be -2, at least not just yet. It feels pretty beatable going from my own experiences in tournament, just a very annoying MU.

That's all, I think it's probably better for everyone if I don't go much further on this topic lol

 

[TheGlove]

So, long ago in this thread (or even the older one) it was discussed what was the perfect main combination in order to cover the most matchups in the best way possible, and the most shared opinion was that maining and was the "most optimal option". But as we all know, the metagame has changed a lot since then, and I wanted to ask your opinion on this matter with the current meta. What would be the "best" combination of characters (not more than two) in this meta to main?

I'm sorry if this post doesn't belong to this thread or if I'm changing the topic too suddenly, but I think it's an interesting point to discuss, even more now with the current matchup-based tier list of Dabuz.

Sonic Sheik would still be a pretty good pair to be honest, I think between the two of them they go they go at least even with everybody. This might depend on where Lucario ends up, Some have thought he may actually work as a sheik counter now and Heero/Static Manny has recently given up on trying to play Sonic vs Lucario.

I personally think that Rosa and Sheik might pair well together. Rosa has pretty good matchups overall, with the exception of Cloud and Metaknight whom I think Sheik can deal with fairly effectively. Many characters with evenish Rosa Match ups Like Megaman and Falcon and maybe Fox are still pretty susceptible to sheik stuff. The one real threat to this pair might be Pikachu, depending If further developments in his gameplay solidify things towards Esam's matchup spread, but even then the match ups would be doable

 

[jespoke]

Its a common misconception that because Lucina lacks a tipper that she doesn't need to space when thats not true, all sword users need to space. Its basically now they play the neutral (one of the reasons Roy's is so bad) and because her aerials aren't extremely powerful at the tip they aren't going to be as safe and aren't going to be as threatening in any case.

It seems you and the author of the document are saying the exact same things but draw wildly different conclusions from it.

Lucina should be spacing just as much as Marth with her tipper hitboxes that do ~1% less. Marth has more KO power and a slight bit more shieldstun to work with. Lucina gets more from stings and smash attacks.

Marth's advantages are much more powerful. But in matchups where you don't feel confident you can get off consistent tippers Lucina does just as well as Marth, while something like a Sword v Sword matchup; that is a spacing battle (Ignoring Roy for a minute), Marth has a clear better matchup

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I think the best dual main combination is "X rushdown/aggressive-in-neutral top tier" plus . So basically ////plus covers the meta well for the most part.

 

[bc1910]

Shut up about Greninja lol. He has results with Beast, but when you look at matchup per matchup results vs. top players, the only thing we really know is that he may do well against pikachu and diddy and probably does bad vs. Sheik too. Istudying also came to Pound and IIRC he got 33rd losing to K9 and Seagull joe, which may prove that greninja does poorly vs. Sheik and sonic. (Which is a really bad set of matchups to lose heavily to anyway considering how common they are) I also got to fight him with my Rosa and hour 1 mewtwo (albeit it was after the tournament so I understand exhaustion) and it wasn't looking good for your frog buddy. Heck, IIRC Istudying struggles with a mario player in his region too? AFAIK there aren't any other good examples of Greninja vs. other common matchups to validate these claims.

When I say that I base the list of matchups, I mostly avoid the theoretical spread where Greninja goes even vs. everybody except two characters until I see that theory in action. I go off of per matchup results which gives us a better look at how he would do across a variety of tournaments and matchups. The higher up a character it, the better their matchup spread has been proven to be. If this was solely placings based, then the entire second tier (Except maybe ness?) would be above Fox, Sonic, and Mewtwo, but it's not, it uses placings as a way to gauge how effective the characters are vs. a variety of characters in a per matchup basis. So back to Greninja, he's a character where we have a small sample size of top level play and that sample isn't particularly great. If you really feel this strongly, please, show me the results of notable greninja mains in terms of who they fought that is also notable.

Don't tell me to shut up. I was simply responding to another post of mine that you had responded to (by tagging you, not quoting), and perfectly amicably. The conversation was specifically about this character. What a rude response.

As much as I'd like to rebut this (and I think this is full of misinformation, from random claims about iStudying to a continuing disregard for Europe's scene) I don't see why I should bother. Regardless, I agree that this topic has gone as far as it should and I will PM you with a response.

EDIT: If I could rephrase something - I DO see why I should bother to respond (and am happy to) but I'll do so later and without cluttering the thread further.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Don't tell me to shut up. I was simply responding to another post of mine that you had responded to (by tagging you, not quoting), and perfectly amicably. The conversation was specifically about this character. What a rude response.

As much as I'd like to rebut this (and I think this is full of misinformation, from random claims about iStudying to a continuing disregard for Europe's scene) I don't see why I should bother. Regardless, I agree that this topic has gone as far as it should. I will PM you with a response.

When he said shut up, he means just stop. He didn't say anything rude after that, and a "shut up lol" doesn't make the whole post wrong. Unless you can show us where Dabuz is wrong most of us can stick with it.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

About the dishonest vs honest discussion, all I can say is eh. This is a videogame with characters from universes that defy logic, balance, blah blah. You want honest? Play chess. Sounds like a bunch of john talk to me. "I lost to X top tier, but hey look I play X really underwhelming mid tier, wow my character is so honest ^-^."

 

[Y2Kay]

I mean, we can sit around and act like iStudying is the only greninja main on the planet, but as I have already stated twice already, greninja does has results on a regional level, especially in Europe. It should be noted that with greninja's vote on the 4BR greninja was 17th in Europe. I think this is important to note.

Honestly Marth's placement kinda throws a hanger into the mix. Marth's probably mid tier now, but his results aren't better than greninja's really. Marth's top level results aren't really better, and his regional ones aren't really better either.

Whatever, I'm pretty much done with conversation anyway, there is no changing his mind it seems.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I mean, we can sit around and act like iStudying is the only greninja main on the planet, but as I have already stated twice already, greninja does has results on a regional level, especially in Europe. It should be noted that with greninja's vote on the 4BR greninja was 17th. I think this is important to note.

Honestly Marth's placement kinda throws a hanger into the mix. Marth's probably mid tier now, but his results aren't better than greninja's really. Marth's top level results aren't really better, and his regional ones aren't really better either.

Whatever, I'm pretty much done with conversation anyway, there is no changing his mind it seems.

Lol Europe.

 

[Y2Kay]

Lol Europe.

Yes indeed Europe is a place. It's a continent just west of Asia.

Seriously though, what's your point?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That image assumes that Corrin isn't going to go for the ledge nine times out of 10 because....why? Side B as a consistent recovering tool? Koopa are you for real?

There are various ways of dealing with Corrin's ledge options depending on the situation/your character. Don't be lazy and do the same thing over and over again.

Bruh, side b can hit you in that entire red range and is unreactable. If Corrin ledge jumps, you cannot contest it.

 

[BunbUn129]

Yes indeed Europe is a place. It's a continent just west of Asia.

Seriously though, what's your point?

Remember: most people are biased towards the US scene and act like it's the only one that matters, while the rest are backwaters inhabited by players who are supposedly forever doomed to be inferior to the player base America has to offer.

If you ever try to argue using results from Europe and Japan, you're fighting a battle that you probably aren't going to win.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So Mikekirby just posted his matchup spread.

He put in so many matchups as even lol.

My personal thoughts:

and aren't disadvantages. is even and is in our favor. Neither is that should be in even

HOW is and not in slight advantage? lol

Is even, not solidy in our favor.

Some characters are in even that imo should be in slight disadvantage. For example: . People constantly sleep on Duck Hunt. That matchup is in his favor. Some others should be moved to disadvantage too.

How is even? wowwww that matchup is sorta bad (sorta)

How come and are in differant parts? They're the same ratio for this matchup imo

Isn't THAT bad, Sonic and Luigi should switch imo

And obvisualy some other stuff too

 

[PK Gaming]

Bruh, side b can hit you in that entire red range and is unreactable. If Corrin ledge jumps, you cannot contest it.

You can't react to it, but you can anticipate it if they go for it and punish them for it.

Like right here, it happens in this set.

It's really not that big of a deal. Just look for it, especially when you're at KO%.

 

[sedrf]

Lol Europe.

I'm really confused by your response, are you implying that europe is a weak region?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

You can't react to it, but you can anticipate it if they go for it and punish them for it.

Like right here, it happens in this set.

It's really not that big of a deal. Just look for it, especially when you're at KO%.

I'm talking about onto the platform for the most part