Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Mike's list seems optimistic and a bit iffy. (I say iffy because I feel Kirbeh's weaknesses are pretty darn easy to exploit)
Though that's just the Even match ups. I feel quite a few of them could go to disadvantage for Kirby. That and tons of characters have tools to deal with him these days so I wouldn't be surprised if everyone has a positive match up against the puffball.

Negative thoughts aside I think it's a'ight apart from that.


Now who's a character who's rarely talked about?

That's incredibly pessimistic. Damn, can we ever be middle ground about this character? He has many poor matchups, but he isn't complete ****.

What makes Kirby good?

Small hurtbox, great reward off of grab/high damage combos, low crouch, good grounded frame data, low landing lag on aerials, and decent matchups against some top tiers. Not solo viable, but a decent counterpick.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That's incredibly pessimistic. Damn, can we ever be middle ground about this character? He has many poor matchups, but he isn't complete ****.



Small hurtbox, great reward off of grab/high damage combos, low crouch, good grounded frame data, low landing lag on aerials, and decent matchups against some top tiers. Not solo viable, but a decent counterpick.

So good/great advantage and shaky neutral with a bad? Disadvantage

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucina sucks

 

[KamikazePotato]

I have a question where do you guys put Lucina's viability in comparison to other sword fighters?

For how popular the Fire Emblem swordies are with the playerbase, Marth, Lucina, and even Ike are all very much underrepresented for what they bring to the table. All three have stigmas to shake off.

Marth was Top Tier in two SSB games straight and went straight to Low Tier in SSB4 1.0.0. That left people reeling. The fact that he's been buffed significantly since then and has a lot going for him currently doesn't seem to matter to a lot of people for some reason. I actually think he's more or less equal to Ike in overall strength/viability.

Lucina has even more ground to make up - she's been discredited since the game came out, because she was a slightly weaker version of Marth, who was already bad. She's dismissed almost universally but she's actually quite good as well, and does better than Marth in a good number of matchups against fast opponents where landing the tipper is much harder.

Ike is the one whose strength is accepted by the community, but he still has very few people playing him for some reason. Probably because he sucked in Brawl and was really bad when SSB4 first came out.

Of course, then there's Corrin who people jumped ship to immediately (for good reason), and Roy who has very few representatives but...is actually just not very good. Sorry Roy!

 

[ZSaberLink]

Out of curiosity, what do folks usually consider in talking about a character's out of shield game? Clearly jump squat & aerial starting frames come into play, grab speed, as well as UpB & USmash frame data (starting and end lag). Basically what is usually considered good for OOS game? I presume ideally you'd want a quick & safe (low startup & end lag) attack, but would take a quick startup, but high end lag attack over a slow startup, but low end lag?

Since I main Link, as an example Link's OOS is interesting. His fastest options are his UpB (frame 8) and USmash (frame 10) which are both kill moves and have decent range, but commit Link to a good bit of endlag. However, his jumpsquat is 7 frames, thus dropping shield & attacking or using aerials isn't all that different (7 + Frame 7 jab, 7 + Frame 8 Utilt, 7 + 7 Nair, 7 + 6 Bair, etc.). Of course, since he has a tether grab, it's slow and starts at frame 12.

 

[Megamang]

People that say you can't contest mewtwo's kill options don't realize how bad his grab blows. But maybe im biased, since I play greninja and he clearly wins the MU. =D



Just wanted to chime in and say I enjoy the greninja discussion, and I'd like to hear some of these rebuttals on his good theory. If you don't care about greninja, ignore this post. Go ahead and skip, im gonna ramble cause regardless of one top player saying something, we can discuss what we want. And we are ****ing talking about Lucina V Marth again sooo... ninja.

We talk about kill confirm meta. He has lots. Dtilt, weak nair, strong nair, throws (specific percentages into uair). He has throw mixups that also lead to 50/50s (so like, you have to DI dthrow a certain way to make it not a 50/50 but that DI is terrible for f-throw, and no one can react to that). Landing bair hits -> utilt. Or just utilt, since its disjointed and makes him low profile as hell, kill confirming off of low ceilings surprisingly early. (liking low ceilings is relevant in our meta, with our current stagelist, it really really prevents abuse)

Mobility is important. In every game. And gets more important as the meta increases. Always. The only exceptions are when something stupid overwhelms the chance for mobility (mobility based armies always get better in RTS, except when something like immo/sentry is ruling the meta and overdefense is required) to play the game it wants. Which it does in smash. Isn't it why in melee Falco is worse than Fox? Because his moveset seems more broken, but the lack of horizontal mobility makes it less able to choose engagements. Choosing your engagements is vital. Dabuz is relevant in this idea, he learned that his pure defense wasn't working and had to work aggression into his playstyle. So he can choose engagements, pressuring the opponent to make guesses when before they made safe decisions. Rosa's puppet might bleed into the 'centralizing' category, but she still needs her mobility. Luma health nerfs? Whatever. Let's see how good she'd be if we hamstring her air accel OR her ground movement. Yea. Everyone would have an easier time dealing with luma if it wasn't on you all the time and risklessly plowing into you with crazy hitboxes.



Mobility + Projectile has been shown to be huge. Shurikan is obviously great. Kill confirms are great. Amazing dashgrab, with a great throw game coming from it, hell with ZSS and Shiek losing their crazy throw games its borderline top tier throw game, in my humble opinion.

All im asking... what is the bad theory? If its just shiek and sonic... He can do a secondary for those, Luc comes to mind as doing totally fine against both, but there are a few options.

If its just losing to those two, which is wayyyy less problematic now that shiek isn't blatantly broken... then ok With her weight nerfs, ninja's grab is deadlier than hers in the MU. And his grab is better. And his projectile is about even, perhaps worse but in certain situations better. Anyways, if its just having 2 losing MUs then that places him squarely above most characters.

Also, he probably has the best bayonetta MU unless she comes to lose impossibly hard to Diddy/Sonic/Megaman, current tricks not included.

SSHC hurts bayo very badly.

And also breaks a lot of kill confirms or straight up kill moves. But doesn't work against Rosalina.

Shurikan sure does.

Anyways, if Dabuz is basing his theory off of beating istudying then I don't really care, he is solidly better and so is his character. Give it time. Ally has considered picking up Ninja, which means he has time with him under his belt. I'd love to see it someday. The status quo is the status quo character wise, but we see it changing.

I think people's primary problem was that Marth is better than Greninja based on... wut?

I can ramble on and on about this, and I don't mind when others do. We have moderators to tell us what to talk about, and there is a reason they aren't top players (exceptions...). One person telling you to shut up about your theory should power you on! They're afraid of the frog! Dabuz is probably just squashing hype while he picks up the frog to be totally honest with you, now that Cloud rekts her for free he's gonna need a new plushie to win with.

 

[DblCrest]

|RK|
Sorry
I think he's good just that he could be better honestly. But I'm a tad pessimistic in regards to the character at times. Despite people's claims that the Kirby mains are too optimistic about him. ( Though I don't have a main anymore soooo...)

I think he can't get any worse and can only get better from here. But at the same time I'm also jaded.

 

[FullMoon]

I think people's primary problem was that Marth is better than Greninja based on... wut?

Results

On a less serious note you're gonna kill the grammar nazi in me if you keep misspelling shuriken as shurikan =V

 

[Megamang]

I'd say the speed your fastest OOS comes out, as well as its risk, makes a big impact on your OOS game.

For example, link having a slow grab OOS makes aerial pressure much easier. Shieldgrabbable things are less, so your options are more. While spin attack is alright, its risky... so If I know what causes the link to use it, I can bait it and smash him.

Mario can grab OOS safer, usmash when he knows itll hit for good measure... but the speed of the grab is super important in making the rest good options.

This is why Ninja's shield is meh.

 

[|RK|]

So good/great advantage and shaky neutral with a bad? Disadvantage

More or less, yeah.

 

[Megamang]

This patch cycle is one of the first time our top contenders don't have get out of disadvantage free cards. Bayonetta does have 'kill you for pressing advantage', Cloud has his silly dair and limit moves in general/ he gets limit for getting womped, Diddy still has decent but readable stuff... It really goes a long way in balancing the game. It was silly when someone could escape disadvantage with a telegraphed button and still be basically free. but now those characters have lost something about their neutral or advantage, balancing it out. It really helps every character to not have odds *that* stacked against them anymore, though LCS calls all this into question when the corner of the kanji kills me half a second after he swings >_>

 

[Trifroze]

We talk about kill confirm meta. He has lots. Dtilt, weak nair, strong nair, throws (specific percentages into uair). He has throw mixups that also lead to 50/50s (so like, you have to DI dthrow a certain way to make it not a 50/50 but that DI is terrible for f-throw, and no one can react to that).

Landing bair hits -> utilt. Or just utilt, since its disjointed and makes him low profile as hell, kill confirming off of low ceilings surprisingly early. (liking low ceilings is relevant in our meta, with our current stagelist, it really really prevents abuse)

AAAAAAAaaaaaaaaa what?

Let me say outright that I don't play Greninja but I do lab this game pretty hard whenever I'm bored. With that said, Greninja's dthrow does nnnnot lead to anything even if the opponent DIs completely towards him, and it doesn't matter at all if they DI his fthrow away. Turn the DIs around and he still gets nothing out of them.

I'm not going to deny that Greninja has setups because he does, but literally all of his setups are unsafe due to how close to the opponent you have to be to connect with his setup attacks, and in many cases they're not setups at all if you DI them in time which is something that ultimately becomes the norm with sufficient MU experience when you know what he's likely to go for based on your percentage and his spacing.

But really, in addition to falling aerials and moves that you can only use while stationary (utilt and dtilt) being difficult to land to begin with, there's a massive difference between setups you can fish for without risk and setups that can be punished out of shield by generally everyone. Greninja's nair is not safe, nor is his bair at least from where it connects to utilt, nor are his utilt or dtilt by themselves.

Grabs, dash attacks, safe tilts and disjointed or long range aerials as well as generally any rising aerials are much better setup attacks or just straight up kill moves, and many characters have those. Greninja has a stock cap throw, DA that doesn't setup into anything, unsafe tilts, no rising aerials that hit grounded characters, no autocancels, and while fair is a good move its power isn't very good when you consider its frame data, although Greninja's mobility (the one truly amazing thing about the character) makes it more useful on him than a vacuum suggests. Same with his uair. Shuriken is good and SSHC is janky (in a good way from his perspective), probably enough so that it changes a few matchups around.

I think the "bad theory" with Greninja is that his good theory actually isn't what it's made out to be. His frame data isn't very good (slow grabs, no aerials or specials to break out of combos, long cooldowns on aerials, sluggish smashes) and his damage output per hit isn't particularly amazing either BUT his setups make up for it except that the setups aren't actually that safe or viable when raw MU inexperience is gotten rid of. I'd imagine his poor OoS options and pretty terrible rising aerial / AC game are also more than enough to balance out his great mobility, dash grab / attack and projectile in the neutral.

I don't think Greninja is bad. Good mobility, projectile and burst are all very important and his survivability seems decent as well even if his setups are ultimately unsafe and he lacks reliable tools to break out of disadvantage (outside of SSHC in certain scenarios). People just have to stop exaggerating his strengths and his risk/reward.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'd say the speed your fastest OOS comes out, as well as its risk, makes a big impact on your OOS game.

For example, link having a slow grab OOS makes aerial pressure much easier. Shieldgrabbable things are less, so your options are more. While spin attack is alright, its risky... so If I know what causes the link to use it, I can bait it and smash him.

Mario can grab OOS safer, usmash when he knows itll hit for good measure... but the speed of the grab is super important in making the rest good options.

This is why Ninja's shield is meh.

Add in the range of said option. Ganondorf's frame 7 grab is decent framewise and it's not that risky, but it won't actually grab anything unless your opponent is spacing badly.

 

[Minordeth]

I've put some time into Corrin, especially lately to see if she can actually cover some of Ike's less fun MUs, and I really have to agree that this character is low key kinda gross. Yeah, run speed is bad, but he can still pull out some silly chains with those stupid hit boxes. Just stay in basically a range where you can maybe follow up off of stupid Nair or whatever but also around the edge of the range where frame 4 Dragon Lunge or short hop dragon Lunge can snipe people.

Really though, his Nair has almost as many active frames as Ike's with ridiculous coverage. The character might as well as be a imagined as just a block of active hit box that wanders around the stage at a relaxed speed. And pivot Fsmash is stupid. Character for sure has some disadvantaged MUs, but it may not matter when Corrin is basically the Smash equivalent of a sea urchin.

 

[ARGHETH]

around the edge of the range where frame 4 Dragon Lunge or short hop dragon Lunge can snipe people.

(Instant) DL's F8, actually. 4 frames for the hop and pin each. Aerial DL is F10.

 

[Fatmanonice]

A lot of people read this topic, from random lurkers who come here to learn, all the way to Dabuz/Trela; we should (and do!) set higher standards for posting here. Using For Glory as evidence for claims should almost never be acceptable here.

I disagree because I think that would take a lot of people out of the conversation plus valid points come out of debates about people's personal experiences. For example, I commonly mention match ups that I think are good or bad based on my experience. Sometimes people agree with me and add more information to why a match up is good or bad. Sometimes people disagree with me and add information to why a match up is good or bad. Either way, people are contributing and people who are lurking can look at this information and make more informed decisions and have more solid opinions because they have been exposed to more viewpoints. When I'm dead wrong, people let me know and I've even managed to piss off some very prominent players over the years but, in the end, no opinion really goes unchecked here. I've made this argument before but this thread is called the "competitive impressions thread" and if your "competitive impressions" come from online play, you can speak your mind and people can verify or detract your opinions because, as you said, we have a huge grab bag of different kinds of players here. You have literally some of the best players in the world who rank in 1,000+ combatant tournaments, people like me who live in Elk Phlegm, Midwest who typically go to no more than 32 man tournaments, and also people who primarily just play in ladders or For Glory. If a person's argument is weak, it gets destroyed handily, even if it means the poster is posting at 4am or the post goes unnoticed for a week. "Misinformation" is corrected and business continues as usual.

 

[Megamang]

First off, thank you Trifroze for responding with a good post and not memeing me.

Dthrow sets up for fair if they DI in. It doesn't combo, but since its a huge sword, things are different. So, greninja can cover every option IME. Jump away isn't safe since ninja is faster in the air than almost anyone and can fair you, and you do NOT want to get fair'd while jumping towards the blastzone. Then there is B-throw, which does 8% and if they are DIing away for Dthrow will make them DI in, which puts them in a ****ty spot where you can u-smash a landing option or f-smash an airdodge attempted landing.

I'd argue his smashes are overall solid, considering their disjoint on such a mobile character.

The main thing they do is provide all kinds of psuedo 50/50 kill setups. Say you are landing at 100%, are there any options which win against usmash AND fsmash? Throw in utilt to also kill confirm (DI behind is the only way to survive, but then he gets bair which can kill later anyways) and I'd say no one is truly safe, even if they know the MU.

Another example, and something you touched on, is nair. If you get nair'd and greninja has enough stage, you are in another guessing game. Yes, DI away + airdodge beats Usmash (not at all percentages, but it narrows it greatly)... but if the greninja is jump canceling his usmash (and he should) you have to airdodge preemptively. This dies to walk forward F-smash.

The fact usmash exists makes f-smash stronger, since they have to dodge early to avoid the setup hit and f-smash loves that. Fsmash also often gets really early kills if someone does know the MU, because they are going to be DIing away to not get kill confirmed by dtilt.

In general, I think all his setups have *but if you choose this option, you can kill them for counterplay* so I don't think his kill potential drops dramatically if you know the MU. Usmash in general can cover lots of ****, since you can charge it to force airdodge then the 'sour' hit can send them offstage pretty harshly... again, DI away on landing is something that saves you from dtilt but in all other occasions kills you sooner.

Ftilt is now 'safeish' with 20 recovery frames.

But, rather than tilts, he often uses his great jabs. They have good range, make his aerials supremely safe on shield, and, very importantly, BOTH jab 1 and 2 have a FAF of 22. This means he gets more layers of yomi when he hits you, because he can choose all kinds of jab options. These are extremely useful, and work at a range where other characters are using their safe tilts.

Dsmash is admittedly meh, but its nice to have a roll coverage option.

If you learn his footstools (confirmed from nair btw, which is big. Other characters can do work from footstools but have to land one in neutral which is basically impossible if the opponent is knowledgeable) his damage output is pretty insane. I'm not great, but I can land nair (11) footstool dair (8) nair (soft 6, hard 11), then their percentage determines the followup but often gives you a guaranteed grab, or even a fsmash at lower percentages. This is another trap, because immediate airdodge loses to charge smash and jump away sets up the usmash stuff that we all know, or fair kills.

Not having an aerial he can swing at an airdodge and then followup on is a problem, but he plays this differently. He forces an airdodge, then fastfalls thru you with uair, bringing you down (with linking, barely DIable hits) into utilt or usmash kill confirms. If he suspects your DI, he can turn around on landing and utilt, giving you DI forwards instead of backwards and killing you with uair. Uair itself works as the trap, because you either airdodge the ascending greninja or you don't, you can react to his jump being a full or short hop, and if he does it correctly you have landing -> usmash to also work with.

Yea, his OOS is meh, buts its gotten better to not be a true weakness and he still has f3 jab... ehhh, he shouldn't be shielding as much as others and this is a true weakness.

But I feel he kills with such adjustable options that even if you know the MU, you are in trouble if he is landing his setups. I can see people learning to avoid the falling aerials A-la ZSS, but in many MUs even a powershielded fair is safe, and nair/crossup nair / jabs are so good... Relying on outboxing him is a threat vs fsmash in any situation, and looooots of dodge situations get destroyed by Shadow Sneak.

I just can't think of a safe way to avoid his kill setups, and I think about him a lot. Just always hold away? Even then, he has options.


Additionally, if you opt to go to the ledge, the mixup between dropzone bair and hydro pump is deadly. Lots of characters are totally screwed if they get hit by fair far enough out, because if they can barely make the ledge timing a hydro pump is totally in your hands and leads to guaranteed charged dsmash.. which, past like 100%, will either kill or reset the situation cross stage.


And since I learned perfect pivoting as soon as it was available and have it pretty committed to muscle memory, he actually has some of the most mobile dtilt and utilts. Characters with bad air accel really REALLY struggle to land vs utilt.

PP away dtilt and PP away jab are very very solid boxing options, I'd say his ground/frame game isn't bad at all with this in context.


Regardless, thank you for the discussion. When you play greninja and someone escapes your kill options, you feel like you could have done something else and killed them. Maybe that feeling is wrong, but I don't think so.


Thank you for giving a real reason. I'd add that a lot of those problems you listed apply to ZSS, but do you feel she makes up for it with better disadvantage? Because thats the one I cannot deny, his disadvantage isn't great. f8 counter, fast jabs, shadow sneak, and great mobility make it manageable, as well as a strong neutral and a kit that grows extremely terrifying with rage. Correct rage, you get uthrow uair kill confirms, as well as utilt uair killing earlier and earlier.

And once the uair doesn't combo from utilt, shadow sneak kills you for airdodgeing, as does uair spike.

Ok ill stop now.

 

[bc1910]

All I would add to Trifroze' points is that ZSS shares many of the same weaknesses as Greninja, but they haven't held her back. Both characters have some very good (though very different) strengths that let them compensate for their weaknesses. Greninja's weaknesses aren't so bad that his strengths aren't enough to allow him a top 20 spot.

Greninja's moves are also very safe to whiff. On block and with bad spacing, many of his moves are unsafe. But I'm struggling to think of a character outside the top ~9 where this isn't the case? And even among those, Sonic's CQC isn't safe, Fox isn't safe, ZSS isn't safe etc.

Honestly Greninja is becoming the new Pikachu at this rate. And that's not a good thing.

Well, he has more than one (two?) players putting in work and is still on the rise/settling down in community perception, unlike Pika who is still falling.

I meant what I said though - I don't feel the need to defend him outside specific things like Dabuz' list, when generally he's perceived as being exactly as good as I think he is. He's at 16th on the SWF voted tier list and 19th on the Reddit tier list, and people have got a good grip on his strengths and weaknesses. He might end up a little low on the next BR list, but that's okay. I'd rather just play the game at this point.

Greninja is a cool character who's fun as hell and pretty good. I think those are the main things to remember.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Now who's a character who's rarely talked about?

Olimar.

Shuton got 2nd out of 200 with him at Umebura 22. Interestingly enough he did so after being knocked into losers in WR2 by a relatively unknown Cloud player named Yazawa. He then went on to plow his way through losers bracket beating shky [9th placing ZSS player], bAhuto [7th placing Mario bros player], kept [Villager who beat Abadango!], Kamemushi [MegaMan who beat 9B!] and Nietono [3rd placing Diddy Kong]. That's remarkable but like the majority of people I don't even understand the fundamentals of this character.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Olimar.is one of the first char

Shuton got 2nd out of 200 with him at Umebura 22. Interestingly enough he did so after being knocked into losers in WR2 by a relatively unknown Cloud player named Yazawa. He then went on to plow his way through losers bracket beating shky [9th placing ZSS player], bAhuto [7th placing Mario bros player], kept [Villager who beat Abadango!], Kamemushi [MegaMan who beat 9B!] and Nietono [3rd placing Diddy Kong]. That's remarkable but like the majority of people I don't even understand the fundamentals of this character.

Olimar right now is super underlooked, which is unfortunate because imo he has a lot of potential. I can think of a lot of characters like that, Robin and Shulk for instance
i also think jigglypuff, edgeguarding and bair

 

[Megamang]

Megaman's bracket life is very much improved by the newcomers. Mewtwo is probably the worst newcomer MU, but even then the weight difference is huge and makes rage bair/uair/bthrow really deadly for him, while his kills are a little harder to set up/kill really late, except edgeguarding which is a true problem.

Him beating Ryu is pretty widely accepted, especially if you take Japanese results into consideration. Cloud is difficult at first, but in the same way his properties make him a tough MU for everyone. Mew2king has said its not a good MU for Cloud, and I tend to agree. Corrin's lack of mobility in exchange for amazing buttons doesn't matter when you're out of her way, which can be most of the MU if you play your pellet game correctly. Bayonetta was previously discussed, I think if you have good SDI then she might lose the MU, probably stage dependent MU where if she can kill off the top early you're kinda screwed but otherwise she has to win neutral a bunch, its just a really really boring MU because you can't use crash bomber at all, and have to severely limit leaf shielding, both due to Witch Time.

On the other hand, if Bayonetta's were to optimize some horizontal combos to lead to edgeguarding traps with nair, that could probably kill mega (and a loooot of characters) every single time. Nair being literal constant hitbox is totally broken offstage lol, even though dair was nerfed, characters she can flowchart should be royally ****ed offstage.


Anyways, all that is better than Shiek, Lucario, Mario, Captain Falcon... The only 'old timer' that I am sad to less of is Sonic, which is something I never ever thought I could possibly say until I discovered pellets.

 

[Jamurai]

Sometimes people have trouble thinking relatively. When I see someone say their character has a great advantage state, average or above average neutral tools and poor disadvantage, I think "did you really think about that?"

Kirby for example (please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't play him), his advantage state is really not great, although this rebuttal could be due to a misunderstanding from semantics. Yeah he combos fast fallers hard. So do a significant portion of the cast. Advantage also includes stuff like juggling ability, ease of finishing a stock and edgeguarding, all of which Kirby is somewhat unimpressive at, relative to everyone else. Overall I'd say like, goodish maybe, on a scale of Duck Hunt to Ryu. Also, his neutral is below average and so is his disadvantage state due to low weight and ez edgeguards and juggles, although multiple jumps do help him a bit (but not much cause lol airspeed).

The problem is, when people talk about advantage state, they're talking about something inherently good so they are more likely to overestimate it. They have unconscious bias towards their advantage state not being bad. The opposite is true for disadvantage. It's inherently stressful being in disadvantage state so one may be hesitant to say a character's disadvantage is good unless they think objectively.

Another good example is having experience in a low tier character, knowing things about them that the majority of others do not, which leads to one saying they're underrated or "SO not bottom 10" or "solid mid tier." Think about context, such as whether these things make up for their large weaknesses that other characters don't have, before drawing conclusions.

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Cheers Minordeth for the new sig.

 

[Nobie]

Sometimes people have trouble thinking relatively. When I see someone say their character has a great advantage state, average or above average neutral tools and poor disadvantage, I think "did you really think about that?"

Kirby for example (please correct me if I'm wrong as I don't play him), his advantage state is really not great, although this rebuttal could be due to a misunderstanding from semantics. Yeah he combos fast fallers hard. So do a significant portion of the cast. Advantage also includes stuff like juggling ability, ease of finishing a stock and edgeguarding, all of which Kirby is somewhat unimpressive at, relative to everyone else. Overall I'd say like, goodish maybe, on a scale of Duck Hunt to Ryu. Also, his neutral is below average and so is his disadvantage state due to low weight and ez edgeguards and juggles, although multiple jumps do help him a bit (but not much cause lol airspeed).

The problem is, when people talk about advantage state, they're talking about something inherently good so they are more likely to overestimate it. They have unconscious bias towards their advantage state not being bad. The opposite is true for disadvantage. It's inherently stressful being in disadvantage state so one may be hesitant to say a character's disadvantage is good unless they think objectively.

Another good example is having experience in a low tier character, knowing things about them that the majority of others do not, which leads to one saying they're underrated or "SO not bottom 10" or "solid mid tier." Think about context, such as whether these things make up for their large weaknesses that other characters don't have, before drawing conclusions.

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Cheers Minordeth for the new sig.

I think when people talk about Kirby's advantage state, the thing they're really focused on isn't Kirby's combos on fast fallers (though if you see what MikeKirby does to Foxes it isn't pretty). Rather, they're talking about the continued close-range pressure that Kirby has due to low landing lag on a lot of aerials. It's Kirby's ability to open up the opponent once he gets in striking distance that gives him a "good" advantage state.

 

[Megamang]

I think two very relatively good things are pellets and pk fire (lucas), in terms of zoning and counterzoning together.

Being able to move forwards, backwards, and jump while shooting is amazing. They also clank out other projectiles, so just firing pellets is enough to make most zoners sigh with frustration as their lloyd/boomerang/arrow/DFS/ disappears with a salvo of 2 pellets following behind.

Pk fire, on the other hand, beats out a bunch of projectiles similarly. Its a true threat if it just hits a pellet too, which is unusual to deal with. Ditto for most projectiles.


These were two that come to mind when I was thinking who has to approach whom in varying MUs.

Did I do relative thinking? (I didn't forget needles, I just chose to ignore them since they're not an ignored idea in this thread)

EDIT: Yea, I'd add to kirby's list of advantaged things besides Nobie mentioned:
Intangible limbs (disjoints are hard to land on for a huge majority of the cast [ninja]), really powerful smashes that, while unsafe, are really quick to start (mostly thinking of f-smash power/startup)... if he gets inhale off he gets a nice advantage in most MUs, and this naturally will probably happen in advantage, since you aren't gonna just pop into an inhale in neutral, kill throws and combo throws, kill throw on platform (!). Thats all I can think of, i'm sure theres more.

Does he have any footstool stuff off of utilt? It feels like he should.

 

[BunbUn129]

I think two very relatively good things are pellets and pk fire (lucas), in terms of zoning and counterzoning together.

Being able to move forwards, backwards, and jump while shooting is amazing. They also clank out other projectiles, so just firing pellets is enough to make most zoners sigh with frustration as their lloyd/boomerang/arrow/DFS/ disappears with a salvo of 2 pellets following behind.

Pk fire, on the other hand, beats out a bunch of projectiles similarly. Its a true threat if it just hits a pellet too, which is unusual to deal with. Ditto for most projectiles.


These were two that come to mind when I was thinking who has to approach whom in varying MUs.

Did I do relative thinking? (I didn't forget needles, I just chose to ignore them since they're not an ignored idea in this thread)

EDIT: Yea, I'd add to kirby's list of advantaged things besides Nobie mentioned:
Intangible limbs (disjoints are hard to land on for a huge majority of the cast [ninja]), really powerful smashes that, while unsafe, are really quick to start (mostly thinking of f-smash power/startup)... if he gets inhale off he gets a nice advantage in most MUs, and this naturally will probably happen in advantage, since you aren't gonna just pop into an inhale in neutral, kill throws and combo throws, kill throw on platform (!). Thats all I can think of, i'm sure theres more.

Does he have any footstool stuff off of utilt? It feels like he should.

Kirby has up tilt (or some other move) -> footstool -> rock. I've seen Smashgod do it a few times and it looks friggin hilarious.

 

[Das Koopa]

Midwest Mayhem 2 is this weekend btw

iStudying, Abadango, VoiD, Zinoto, Nite, JJRockets, Tyroy, etc. will be there. Definitely a large regional worth looking at. It'll be interesting if Abadango can pull off a win.

Side note @Yikarur, how many entrants where there at Marius Ex?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Kirby has footstool combos but they're either only on floaties or unreliable as hell.

Kirbys advantage state is good because he has fast, safe ground moves that combo into slow aerial moves, which have little landing lag. He can combo fastfallers better then most other characters while staying decently safe and pressuring fast. A lot of his MUs are based on this, like Luigi, Sonic, and Rosalina, who Kirby's advantage state barely exists against.

 

[Das Koopa]

ROB is 12th in overall results BTW

He has a very strong regional presence I don't see talked about a lot. Big-name R.O.B. mains using him seem to often make 5th-3rd.

 

[bc1910]

ROB is 12th in overall results BTW

He has a very strong regional presence I don't see talked about a lot. Big-name R.O.B. mains using him seem to often make 5th-3rd.

This isn't directed at ROB, but can I ask at what point you're going to start discounting the really old results? Or are you doing that already?

It's usually wrong to have results included in these sorts of rankings from many months ago, especially in a game with patches. The metagame changes quickly and old results can misrepresent a character's current position. I remember I used to do rankings like this with a 6-month rolling average (a 1-year rolling average would be fine too).

 

[Das Koopa]

I'm doing quarterly lists and will most likely reset on July 1st. The Q2 cycle in this case includes the back half of March since the patch happened to fall so close to Q2.

I may or may not reset after the next patch depending on how significant the changes are.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Regarding patches...

1.1.0 - July 30th, 2015
1.1.1 - September 30th, 2015
1.1.2 - October 8th, 2015
1.1.3 - December 15th, 2015
1.1.4 - February 3rd, 2016
1.1.5 - March 15th, 2016

They've generally come in intervals of 1 to 3 months. How long would it take without a patch before everyone called it in and accepted the current state as the final version of the game?

 

[Joey T.]

Regarding patches...

1.1.0 - July 30th, 2015
1.1.1 - September 30th, 2015
1.1.2 - October 8th, 2015
1.1.3 - December 15th, 2015
1.1.4 - February 3rd, 2016
1.1.5 - March 15th, 2016

They've generally come in intervals of 1 to 3 months. How long would it take without a patch before everyone called it in and accepted the current state as the final version of the game?

As you said, the longest we've been without a patch is 3 months, so I think that will happen 4 months after the last patch, where almost everyone won't be expecting a new one. And if it comes, it would be a shock for everyone.

Nevertheless, there will always be people begging for a patch to nerf the top-tier characters or to buff the low-tier ones.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Regarding patches...

1.1.0 - July 30th, 2015
1.1.1 - September 30th, 2015
1.1.2 - October 8th, 2015
1.1.3 - December 15th, 2015
1.1.4 - February 3rd, 2016
1.1.5 - March 15th, 2016

They've generally come in intervals of 1 to 3 months. How long would it take without a patch before everyone called it in and accepted the current state as the final version of the game?

Not very long, however not many people would be happy.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Regarding patches...

1.1.0 - July 30th, 2015
1.1.1 - September 30th, 2015
1.1.2 - October 8th, 2015
1.1.3 - December 15th, 2015
1.1.4 - February 3rd, 2016
1.1.5 - March 15th, 2016

They've generally come in intervals of 1 to 3 months. How long would it take without a patch before everyone called it in and accepted the current state as the final version of the game?

There was a 4 month gap between the Wii U release and the Mewtwo patch. I'd say if we hear nothing by EVO at least, it's probably the final patch. I don't see them stopping right now after all the Bayo complaints though. The game would be in a really good state with Bayo/Cloud nerfs and appropriate buffs for the bottom 10 or so.

 

[Xinc]

Also Ganon-Kirby is the rare MU of Ganon's that's both actually played out often enough at a reasonably high level in the case of GanontheBeast vs Triple R to draw conclusions about it and actually has results favorable to Ganon. Should be thankful it's not just another "lol we beat Dorf 70-30," but theory says even to slightly in Dorf's favor and results lean to Dorf as well here.

Can you send a bigger picture or link me to the post please?

 

[Krysco]

Stating Greninja's theory in the same favorable tone over and over and exaggerating the importance of his results is annoying at this point. Like Pikachu's.

pls no pikachu

This isn't directed at you specifically, rather, at the entire thread but why is discussion about Pikachu perceived as annoying? With Greninja, there are at least 4 regulars here I believe that main or at least post a lot about Greninja. MK and M2 get a lot of mention too. I don't believe any regular poster here has Pikachu listed as their main and yet whenever the character is brought up, it's always followed by negativity.

I've lurked here enough to see the Pika discussion brought up numerous times and the most I can see as annoying is the debate over uthrow -> rar thunder. Maybe his tier placement and Esam's optimism over the character has something to do with it? Honestly, with the general feelings this thread has towards Pikachu, I'm surprised anything related to Esam is ever brought up. Most people tend to agree that his opinions are too optimistic.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It's the fact that pikachu is the poster child of theory vs results. Frame data and numbers indicate that he should be somewhere in high tier, but middling representation and results say otherwise. So the discussion goes nowhere. Void on stream yesterday said he thinks pikachu is really good, but just doesn't have results. That kind of cognitive dissonance does not lend itself well to discussion.

On a side note, can someone gather all the major matchup charts posted by pro players and put them on like one big googleor something? They get lost way too easily in all these pages.

 

[Krysco]

It's the fact that pikachu is the poster child of theory vs results. Frame data and numbers indicate that he should be somewhere in high tier, but middling representation and results say otherwise. So the discussion goes nowhere. Void on stream yesterday said he thinks pikachu is really good, but just doesn't have results. That kind of cognitive dissonance does not lend itself well to discussion.

On a side note, can someone gather all the major matchup charts posted by pro players and put them on like one big doc or something? They get lost way too easily in all these pages.

Are Greninja and Mewtwo truly any different? Mewtwo won Pound, Greninja got what? 1st or 2nd at Beast? May have gotten the names wrong. They also have results elsewhere but Esam has gotten results with Pikachu too. Good enough ones that he's still relevant (I also believe a Japanese Pikachu has been mentioned from time to time, don't recall the name). Like, Ranai is the main name bringing in any Villager results and yet when Villager is brought up once in a blue moon, the discussion is rather tame. Or even better, Ryu. The character is deemed 4th best on the current tier list yet lacks the results to prove it. People still deem him high tier (not exactly top 5) and looking at his tools, he would seem high tier but lacks many results to back it up. If it's his skill ceiling/floor then perhaps Pikachu is similar?

I don't know. The main reason I even brought it up is because if this thread is truly a place for people to come and learn (which is the main reason I come here) then I feel bad for anyone now or in the future who wants to come here to learn about Pikachu because no one ever wants to talk about him. If there's nothing to discuss at the time then that's fine but the character has been brought up numerous times and it always seems to end badly.

 

[wedl!!]

Pikachu discussions often devolve into ****flinging fests about how Pikachu is mid tier because Shaya or SolidSense said so, without actually understanding their reasoning.

Also uthrow>thunder memes.

 

[BunbUn129]

Inb4 Pikachu is a red topic.