Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Megamang]

I'll deal with him the same way I did before, my dashgrab is waaayyyy better and my kill throw basically is as good, due to the weight differential. Disjoints make his life hard, he can't low profile much. Shurikans will prevent shadow ball carnage, and my projectile is probably better in that way. He does have a good reflector, but I wont fall to the ground and get smashed when I get hit with confusion and it'll be allright.

I'm going to avoid battlefield, since my usmash doesn't work properly there, and his kill throw scales a little better than mine. I'm going to pester him with dash attack/ dashgrab / feint / Forward air mixups, depending on what is working I'll stick with that.

I'll abuse his bad ledgesnap frames, and while his recovery has good distance, you can smack it with a disjoint.

I'll love the fact that any aerial I hit near the blastzone will kill him, and I can almost guarantee he is going to airdodge when I start coming up there. (He can't really dair you away like Cloud or Link or something).

I'm gonna be short hopping a lot more, even than usual, since he dominates the ground with d-tilt.

I want him above me, dair isn't that scary and my upwards game is strong. I'll take any trade I can get, except at very low percentages I'll avoid the fair like the plague.

I want to abuse his air accel being slow as well, both offensively and defensively. Offensively, bad air accel + big frame + slow-to-rise double jump means a setup tilt will often net me an usmash, either for racking damage or killing. Defensively, it means I can juke him out fairly easily at a decent height above the stage, because he doesn't have his crazy dash to fall back on and instead must accel very slowly.

Anyone who has trouble with M2 should hop in training/smash mode and just mess around with his grabs. When you see how bad his dashgrab really is, you start to realize he can't really force it on you, and even if he forces shield you can drop and trade, or aerial out, or if you have good dodges do some sort of dodge-> tilt situation. Or even drop shield jab.

But his grab is bad range, he has bad traction, he doesn't have an offensive up B oos, or anything OOS that is fast at all. So, I'll play yomi on his shield, nair -> jab/tilt/grab/dodge/shorthop is all scary stuff to him, and decent spacing means he won't get a shieldgrab.


Yea, he is a good character. But accel >> Speed, once you get used to the blistering speed. His big frame and 2nd jump will really, really be problems, I promise. When I make him jump, I get a good shot at snagging him with an usmash and he is gonna fly upwards afterwards, so he isn't exactly going to fair back.

I feel once we get used to all his odd attributes, he will fall slightly. He is still damn good, and has amazing forward facing options. so we will never not see him. He is an oddity, with crazy good consistency on his end killing... for the price of being one of the most consistent to get kills.

Seriously, people have mentioned smashers are too afraid to make unsafe moves... If your character has a good fsmash, and you get into ledge mixups with the M2, whip out that smash sometime. Get a feel for it. Because it will kill him stupid early, and you aren't gonna die cross stage unless you are taking risks at 150%.

and don't do that, since your kill throw will kill him pretty close to his, if you have that rage.


I predict he'll settle to be around Lucario status, maybe a bit more popular but less successful? I don't think another major is gonna be taken, unless m2k gets really really serious about learning ledge games with m2.

---

EDIT: Sword users aren't bad at edgeguarding lol. Maybe Roy is, but that has more to do with his physics than his moves or his sword. Hell, if he had 3 jumps he'd be nairing people under stages all day erry day.
Marth is one of the only characters that can edgeguard bayonetta with ease. Its damn hard with greninja, he falls a little too fast so she can realistically time an airdodge much easier, though it is possible if they go on autopilot.

Funnily, sword users demolish other swordies offstage the most, ime. Dropdown counter is an amazing tool vs Marth, Roy, Ike, and anyone who has a hitbox directly on top of their recovery.

Except Mario. He just makes it back anyways ;_;

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Roy is actually pretty good at edge guarding. He has a low FAF fair and Bair, with the sweetspots killing around 110 offstage and the sourspots putting the opponent in a really bad position, a D-Tilt that semi-spikes, a solid counter, and a disjointed Dash attack that reaches far offstage and can kill opponents recovering horizontally. Obviously not as good as Marth's, but its still pretty good.

Not seeing how he has no neutral. He got some pretty good tools such as Jab, D-Tilt, Fair, and Nair, which are all fairly safe on shield and can covert into several other moves for big damage. I think you are over exaggerating his disadvantageous state as well.

,
and all of that is pretty much ruined by a combination of his high gravity, fall speed, and trash recovery
Out of all the disjointed characters I feel like Roy has the worst edgeguarding and offstage game

 

[Minordeth]

SM (Ike) vs Aravion (Bayo) just happened. A decent example of what Ike should both do and not do during the Bayo match. Ike essentially has to use far fewer aerial baits than he normally would in most other matches. His aerial autocancels aren't nearly as safe vs Bayo, even retreating Fair. When SM stayed grounded, he was able to utilize Ike's grab game to somewhat keep up with the Bayo damage output.

Midway through the second match, he briefly started using pivot Ftilt, but then promptly forgot about it. Ike's ridiculous initial dash makes his pivots pretty effective at outranging Bayo on the ground, and he was able to bait out quite a few twitchy witch times as she came down from aerial approaches. I wish he had stayed grounded for the third match, but he got caught in the air one time too many, and Aravion took it.

EDIT: This is on the MSM stream on 2GG.

EDIT 2: Caveat to the match - Aravion plays rather unsafe. He uses a lot of grounded Side-B, and makes really obvious attempts to bait attacks into Witch Time. Still...

 

[Red Stache]

Lots of interesting things, being talked about right now.
On the topic of Dabuz:
While he did try to back his MU's , I'm not sure if I can take Dabuz's list seriously. (Some MU's, but not all)

Because, first off, he did not take other countries results (like Japan) into consideration.
Things like that are important and can only add and improve understanding of MUs. (Of any character)

Another thing he appeared to not take into consideration, was playing on different stages.
Depending on a stage, it could give Rosalina a advantage/bigger advantage....
But, it could also give her opponent and even MU, an advantage, or an even better advantage.
Character and stage depending of course.

 

[Browny]

Duck Hunt Duo is the most underrated character right now, Dabuz putting him in the same tier as zelda looks so wrong.

It actually annoys me in my community tier list thread how so few people acknowledge the high placings DHD mains are getting.

 

[LancerStaff]

Duck Hunt seems to be in a weird spot... It's hard to look at him and not think he's awful, and yet he's getting results anyway. People would be similarly reluctant if Zelda and Puff started getting results, though that's because that's where people place him.

Honestly I don't have a clue where to put Duck Hunt.

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's not like results are a definite proof of anything.
They are a good indicative, but results have so and so many variants they must be taken with a good spoonful of salt.


Also, Dabuz's Zelda/Duckhunt tier had like 15 characters, the chances of them not belonging there are minimal.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's strange how people are still surprised that Marth is considered a decent character now.

Before he got buffed the common consensus in here was that fair used to be one of his defining tools in previous iterations of smash and that he'd likely become a pretty good character if only it got buffed. Now his fair *did* get buffed, he regained one of his defining tools ... but people are confused about Marth being considered pretty good now?

That's why I'll argue with results over theorycrafting whenever they're available.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's strange how people are still surprised that Marth is considered a decent character now.

Before he got buffed the common consensus in here was that fair used to be one of his defining tools in previous iterations of smash and that he'd likely become a pretty good character if only it got buffed. Now his fair *did* get buffed, he regained one of his defining tools ... but people are confused about Marth being considered pretty good now?

That's why I'll argue with results over theorycrafting whenever they're available.

It's because first impressions are very hard to shake.

It's why half the low/mid tier is still considered bad even though most of them were buffed to at least be viable.

 

[Megamang]

I think it makes sense that a series of little buffs everywhere is less immediately obvious than something huge like a new grab combo or confirm. Marth still plays like Marth, but its doing more damage and killing much earlier, and it has the right range.

Its hard to place how these little buffs all add up, but they definitely stack up over the course of a game. And I agree that Marth feels pretty powerful.

Does Marth have any -2 MUs?

 

[BunbUn129]

-Pikachu, Ryu, Yoshi, and a while ago Roy were too high, and then the answer was, "but they have potential and theory!" Pikachu, Ryu, Roy, and Yoshi are dropping (to varying degrees), Roy has crashed at the bottom already, and they never attained the results many argued they would, even though all of them bar Roy have had notable rep. But then you had Cloud, who, for the first few months, commonly ranked lower than Ryu and Pika, even though his theory is better than theirs, along with much better results.

-Mewtwo was bottom 10 for many people pre-buff and low-tier even for a while after, and the reasoning was "lol weight and no down throw combawz!" (I see you, ZeRo). Even though his results were better than a lot of low tiers. Japan actually acknowledged him as a mid-tier for a while before Pound and even before his buffs.

-Meta Knight was mid-tier and even low-mid for a lot of people even after his buffs, even though Tyrant, Ito, and Leo himself were getting good results; Leo won a national in Mexico pre-Smash Factor 4 and no one batted an eye--this highlights the obvious bias that there is to the US scene. The answer here was, "but he got nerfed hard from Brawl" and "his results aren't that good" and even the glorious "he doesn't have any range so mid-tier, he also has trouble killing."


I dunno, but these ranking issues and disputes arise because people simply cannot agree on how to rank characters--theory? Results? Match-ups? All three? And I'm not talking about the community as a whole here--I mean individual people and individual lists. It's not hard to find a list with character A having a seemingly theory-based placement and character B with a seemingly results-based placement. The 4BR list (outdated, but still a good example here) itself has Pikachu and Ryu sitting on top 5 there, which is more theory-driven, while most other characters seem to be more or less in line with their results.

And, on top of that, there seems to be this unspoken rule that we must maintain the status quo, as though we made some sort of sacred vow; "thou shalt not alter the tier rankings; thou shalt not disagree with thy lord ZeRo's tier placements."

Which is why I love Dabuz's tier list: he sets a clear criteria (match-ups), and no character seems horribly out of place (say what you want about Gren and Ike).

 

[bc1910]

He already said that he let results play a part in the tier list, as they should of course. We're not seeing anything revolutionary with his criteria. Depends on your definition of "horribly" out of place, but Greninja is in the wrong group.

Yeah, I feel the same.

For the most part match up ratios are basically theory. Characters like greninja simply will never be able to face off against every top level main of each character, so we use theory to plug the holes.

Even then though, Greninja's regional placings are pretty strong, especially in Europe. I feel his results are stronger than Marth's and at least on par with Pit's.

Looks like we're back to being underrated, bro

@Dabuz thinks Greninja has the theory to be higher but doesn't have the results for it. But while Greninja does lack top level USA rep, we're not talking about Jigglypuff here. This is a character that is a top 15, possibly top 10 threat in Europe, with decent results in Japan and actually better regional results in the USA than he's given credit for (thanks to Gibus, Venia and IceArrow). Dabuz is not fully appreciating what the character has achieved and the placement is simply 3-4 months out of date.

Greninja's placement caused a big reaction judging by this thread (not including myself, there were plenty of raised eyebrows) and Twitter. There's plenty of agreement for Greninja being higher. I don't know what else the character has to do to get recognised when characters above him like Pit aren't doing much in the USA, and Pit's Japanese placements are comparable to Greninja's European ones.

As I said, I rarely bother to defend Greninja these days and I appreciate that results speak louder than words, but his results aren't being properly appreciated here. To put him in the wrong group just doesn't make any sense.

And yeah, the hipocracy of the Pika/Ryu placements on the official list is frightening, but to be fair that list's for a previous patch and had lots of collaborators.

 

[outfoxd]

Weighing in on the Duck Hunt thing, i think despite his numerous flaws he still manages to put in work because when his kit and player are on point he has monstrous stage control. Between projectiles that control space while he can still move, mild puppeteer qualities with the can and disjointed, rangy aerials, it can be hard to get real estate. I still feel like if he had easy kills he'd be terrifying. I think Dunnobro actuallh said the Cloud mu isn't too bad because of DHs stage control.

I been revisiting DH though I'm a Rosa main now and it feels like some things are starting to click now that I'm more focused on locking down space. Could be talking out my butt though.

 

[Airpoizon]

He's got less killing power than Ike (its not even particularly close, Marth at this point is killing more consistently and sooner than Roy), his faster movement speed is negated by the fact he has less range than Marth with the tipper position meaning he's got to get even closer when he actually wants to try to kill. He is quite possibly the single easiest character to juggle in the game due to his weight + fall speed combination along with one of the worse recoveries in the game and no combo breakers.

His juggling game is... okay. When characters like Falcon, Sheik etc all exist in this game, Roy's pales in comparison. By a fair bit. Middle of the cast somewhere. Most if not all of his kill combos are DIable. Which is a big deal in a game where a lot of the cast have non-DIable kill combos or at least 50/50s. This wouldn't be a problem if he had an easy reliable one button kill move... but he doesn't. Sword characters don't get to have that unless they have really slow frame data (Ike) or they are Cloud and get to be silly. He has nothing like Mario's Usmash, Ness's Bthrow, Rosalina's Uair, etc. So he can't combo reliably into a kill and he can't reliable just toss out a move to get a kill. He also ain't gimping because he's petrified of going off stage.

Local results don't matter for much. Not unless they are particularly stacked. So he has a handful... like every other character. Even Jigglypuff has cracked top 8 at tournaments with noticeable players in them. More importantly, Roy flat out vanishes one the tournament is larger than a local. The only reason we've even briefly seen him lately outside of locals is because people are experimenting with options against Bayonetta. And it failed. Same with the experiment against Ryu using Roy. Freaking Samus had more results than him before the last patch at tournaments larger than locals.

He's not bottom 5, probably not bottom 10... but he's not far from it if he isn't. He has a sword character's lessor frame data without the benefits. Just his fanbase repeating how they were in Melee.

Considering Roys F-Smash kills at 40% at the ledge uncharged lol

 

[Megamang]

How on earth are you landing that?

I feel like there is no way a Roy can force another player into a situation where one of the outcomes is getting fsmashed at the ledge, without that person making significant mistakes.


And I don't mean normal, human, guessing wrong type errors. I mean like, terrible decision making. I don't see how Roy forces me there. Maybe a few nairs will push me towards the ledge, but im not gonna land next to a stationary Roy on the ledge side at 40%

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Does Marth have any -2 MUs?

Well, two of the characters that used to be ranked among Marth's hardest matchups - who also happened to be common tournament threats - have received nerfs that directly affect the matchup, in a good way from Marth's point of view [I'm talking about Sheik and ZSS in case it's not obvious]. Marth also received buffs that help him out a lot.

If he has any -2 matchups left it would have to be between Bayonetta, Cloud and Diddy though I think it's more likely that all three of them are just -1 matchups.

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck Hunt seems to be in a weird spot... It's hard to look at him and not think he's awful, and yet he's getting results anyway. People would be similarly reluctant if Zelda and Puff started getting results, though that's because that's where people place him.

Honestly I don't have a clue where to put Duck Hunt.

Duck hunt is the equivalent of little mac (more like doc) in terms of viable. He has good tools but his recovery makes it so losing neutral = stock against the majority of the cast at almost any percent. (Little mac gets very similar results from sol) So you can't expect a consistent tourney record.

There's just significantly less dhd to mac out there so not everyone knows their best gimping options vs him, some are braindead and laughably easy. The main one is using a projectile or other safe, light hitting move to disable my can when I use it to cover my recovery. Lasers, needles, fireballs, if the dhd aimed the can properly towards the ledge, that means the can is hovering right where he needs to grab the ledge, maybe ready to stage spike him. And if I don't use the can (likely because I can only do it once while im out since i need a jump to not fall near the blastzone) it's just a slow, no hitbox recovery.

And I was wrong about the cloud MU, it's ass once they figure out the edgeguards like every other MU lol

That damn nair doesn't even care about the can

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Duck hunt is the equivalent of little mac (more like doc) in terms of viable. He has good tools but his recovery makes it so losing neutral = stock against the majority of the cast at almost any percent. (Little mac gets very similar results from sol) So you can't expect a consistent tourney record.

There's just significantly less dhd to mac out there so not everyone knows their best gimping options vs him, some are braindead and laughably easy. The main one is using a projectile or other safe, light hitting move to disable my can when I use it to cover my recovery. Lasers, needles, fireballs, if the dhd aimed the can properly towards the ledge, that means the can is hovering right where he needs to grab the ledge, maybe ready to stage spike him. And if I don't use the can (likely because I can only do it once while im out since i need a jump to not fall near the blastzone) it's just a slow, no hitbox recovery.

And I was wrong about the cloud MU, it's *** once they figure out the edgeguards like every other MU lol

That damn nair doesn't even care about the can

I thought killing was his biggest weakness

 

[outfoxd]

I thought killing was his biggest weakness

The recovery makes it even worse. It's hard to play the long game when you also can't survive very well.

 

[DunnoBro]

I thought killing was his biggest weakness

All zoners struggle to kill. As they should imo. It's just he's a character like pacman or villager, who need to win neutral a million times before they win. Except if he ever loses neutral, he can just die due to his recovery.

That's his issue imo. His MUs are pretty much determined based on who can edgeguard him effectively or not.

Of course, they do usually compensate bad recoveries with insane qualities (mac, cloud, etc) but I don't think those qualities should be on a zoner.

 

[outfoxd]

Is that what keeps ROB relevant? Killingish throw, decent smashes and the Beep Boop?

 

[DunnoBro]

Is that what keeps ROB relevant? Killingish throw, decent smashes and the Beep Boop?

Rob is a grappler/zoner mix imo. You want to get in his face but not screw up because of his grab game.

Honestly I used to think DHD's ledge coverage was the trade-off for his recovery but after labbing it feels like even mario's coverage with fludd and oos cancels covers more options.

 

[Smog Frog]

i wouldnt really say that has a hard time killing. he has a decently powerful killing bthrow, dat bair, and of course the utilt. also a variety of metal blade kill confirms(z-drop->utilt, z-drop->bair, z-drop->usmash, z-drop->dsmash, the list goes on)

but i do agree that it is a general trend that zoners struggle to kill.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

It's not like results are a definite proof of anything.
They are a good indicative, but results have so and so many variants they must be taken with a good spoonful of salt.


Also, Dabuz's Zelda/Duckhunt tier had like 15 characters, the chances of them not belonging there are minimal.

What? I mean I get what you're saying, but that's not really how it works.

Results are everything. You can spew your theorycraft spaghetti-o's all over the ground and call it a day, but if players are placing high and winning REGARDLESS of the THEORYCRAFT, the theorycraft is wrong. This is noted by Mewtwo being looked at better after Aba winning Pound, a Kirby/Sheik re-evaluation after KID/R and Mike/Void, Pikachu looked at worse after Esam got more inconsistent, etc.

Results shows what the character can do and how viable the character is. You don't take 'results' with a grain of salt, results are literally what should be backing up the theorycraft. If it isn't, the theory is wrong simply put.

 

[TurboLink]

All zoners struggle to kill. As they should imo. It's just he's a character like pacman or villager, who need to win neutral a million times before they win. Except if he ever loses neutral, he can just die due to his recovery.

That's his issue imo. His MUs are pretty much determined based on who can edgeguard him effectively or not.

Of course, they do usually compensate bad recoveries with insane qualities (mac, cloud, etc) but I don't think those qualities should be on a zoner.

Link and Toon Link do not struggle to kill.

Zoners have a hard enough time in Smash Bros. in general. The last thing they need is another weakness/flaw for rushdown characters to exploit.

 

[L9999]

TheGoodGuava I suggest you reading this regarding Marcina.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1BYjEF6_WbpFDwdzlXf3o6rpaBOnhNvrlYWQpdg6xNfE/edit?pref=2&pli=1

 

[Ulevo]

What? I mean I get what you're saying, but that's not really how it works.

Results are everything. You can spew your theorycraft spaghetti-o's all over the ground and call it a day, but if players are placing high and winning REGARDLESS of the THEORYCRAFT, the theorycraft is wrong. This is noted by Mewtwo being looked at better after Aba winning Pound, a Kirby/Sheik re-evaluation after KID/R and Mike/Void, Pikachu looked at worse after Esam got more inconsistent, etc.

Results shows what the character can do and how viable the character is. You don't take 'results' with a grain of salt, results are literally what should be backing up the theorycraft. If it isn't, the theory is wrong simply put.

This is incorrect.

The theory is theory because it has yet to be proven nor disproven. You are correct in saying results are what should be supporting theorycraft, and if a theory is staring down a mountain of contrasting evidence then that theory needs to be reassessed, but dismissing theory by default when there are no results to back it does not make sense given there are reasons results could be absent. The basis for a theory in this case is usually not tournament winnings, but the aspects we use to ascertain character potential, usually pertaining to their kit like movement, damage, kill confirms, and so on.

Bracket dynamics could dictate that a character that should be placing higher simply does not due to who they have to fight, or the character representation in that region. The opposite is also true. This is particularly true for characters that have bad match ups against say, Sonic, who are really good but poorly represented. Imagine how Rosalina might be perceived if Meta Knight was more common in Dabuz's region or the tournaments he attends?

Poor representation and character dedication could be stagnating a characters potential. It took Melee Falco, Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers a while to begin to represent how good they may actually be in tournaments. Meta Knight was similar on a smaller scale, even though the aspects that actually made him a viable threat were completely separate from the buffs he received.

Patch's also make it difficult for this process to take hold because if a character needs a settled meta or patch to start to develop properly, it is going to be disrupted each patch because the attention is going to be diverted from that character unless they were featured in said patch. This happens with a lot of flavor of the month champions in League of Legends, who are indirectly buffed as a result of the changes, as an example.

I think most people undervalue results, but you are doing the opposite.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

This is incorrect.

The theory is theory because it has yet to be proven nor disproven. You are correct in saying results are what should be supporting theorycraft, and if a theory is staring down a mountain of contrasting evidence then that theory needs to be reassessed, but dismissing theory by default when there are no results to back it does not make sense given there are reasons results could be absent. The basis for a theory in this case is usually not tournament winnings, but the aspects we use to ascertain character potential, usually pertaining to their kit like movement, damage, kill confirms, and so on.

Bracket dynamics could dictate that a character that should be placing higher simply does not due to who they have to fight, or the character representation in that region. The opposite is also true. This is particularly true for characters that have bad match ups against say, Sonic, who are really good but poorly represented. Imagine how Rosalina might be perceived if Meta Knight was more common in Dabuz's region or the tournaments he attends?

Poor representation and character dedication could be stagnating a characters potential. It took Melee Falco, Jigglypuff and Ice Climbers a while to begin to represent how good they may actually be in tournaments. Meta Knight was similar on a smaller scale, even though the aspects that actually made him a viable threat were completely separate from the buffs he received.

Patch's also make it difficult for this process to take hold because if a character needs a settled meta or patch to start to develop properly, it is going to be disrupted each patch because the attention is going to be diverted from that character unless they were featured in said patch. This happens with a lot of flavor of the month champions in League of Legends, who are indirectly buffed as a result of the changes, as an example.

I think most people undervalue results, but you are doing the opposite.

You literally agreed with my point, that theory should back up results. Obviously results are completely important but taking results with a grain of salt is not right. If a character is under-played and it's hard to know (like Yoshi) it's fine, but if you're ignoring results that are currently there it's an issue. I never said always dismiss theory, I said if theory counters results than you dismiss it. Theory is important, but it's theory for a reason.

 

[DunnoBro]

Link and Toon Link do not struggle to kill.

Zoners have a hard enough time in Smash Bros. in general. The last thing they need is another weakness/flaw for rushdown characters to exploit.

Link's less of a "Zoner" and more of a "Fortress." Same with ROB, Rosalina, etc. You still wanna get in, and it's more rewarding to, but it's also scarier when you screw up due to punishes.

But "struggle to kill" was mainly just "doesn't have easy kills"

Duck hunt doesn't actually struggle to kill much imo either, soft fair to usmash/frisbee, Ledge dthrow > Uair, gunmen > nair/bair (extremely similar to tink's bomb > aerial) Frisbee to literally ANY move he has (even another frisbee) Not to mention his ledge coverage and natural ability to lead the opponent to the ledge.

But typically, characters with good neutrals don't get kills just because they got in once. Good grabs + Kills throws/confirms off grab, that kind of thing.

Every character in the game still functions to some degree at this point, and that means killing. Some still kill easier than others though, that's all i meant.

 

[bc1910]

Killing isn't that easy with Toon Link actually. Respect bombs and Bthrow near the ledge, and he can really struggle. Takes some MU experience though, there's always a lot going on against Toon Link and a lot to watch out for. Without knowing when to pay attention to what projectile, you can get hit with random smashes.

ROB is pretty damn good since he outzones most of the cast whilst still being strong up close. One of the most annoying characters to fight. Learning to use the Gyro against him is very useful, as is learning how to abuse his disadvantage state which is legitimately low tier.

 

[Ninety]

It's strange how people are still surprised that Marth is considered a decent character now.

Before he got buffed the common consensus in here was that fair used to be one of his defining tools in previous iterations of smash and that he'd likely become a pretty good character if only it got buffed. Now his fair *did* get buffed, he regained one of his defining tools ... but people are confused about Marth being considered pretty good now?

That's why I'll argue with results over theorycrafting whenever they're available.

Because the buff veterans wanted was to frame data, not to raw power or range -- specifically, SH double fair. I'm not kidding, I've literally heard people say he won't be viable till he gets it back.

All zoners struggle to kill. As they should imo.

Not Robin! Though, granted, it's debatable how much a character can count as a "true" zoner with laggy projectiles on a timer and subganon run speed.

 

[DunnoBro]

Not Robin! Though, granted, it's debatable how much a character can count as a "true" zoner with laggy projectiles on a timer and subganon run speed.

IMO There's a difference between a "Zoner" who can actively control zones and space with mobility and hitboxes, and a "Fortress" who mainly controls the space around them and punishes anyone who screws up the approach hard.

Robin, Rosa, and Rob certain control space but they're big and slow, also punish reaaaally hard. Tink, Duck hunt, and Pacman control space but are mobile, hard to pin down, but don't really punish you for screwing up that hard.

 

[LordShade67]

Because the buff veterans wanted was to frame data, not to raw power or range -- specifically, SH double fair. I'm not kidding, I've literally heard people say he won't be viable till he gets it back.

Which is dumb and people should stop begging for a buff that'll never happen, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Illusion.]

Which is dumb and people should stop begging for a buff that'll never happen, but that's just my opinion.

The same thing was said about Mewtwo's weight and speed, look how that turned out.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

SORRY TO TOPIC CHANGE BUT

This image is important. I've noticed that once Corrin gets the ledge, she always gets back for free mostly because Side B is unreactable and kills at ludicrously early percentages. After playing against a Corrin today I noticed that I always got hit by... something (literally any of her bull**** moves, but mostly Dragon Lunge) whenever I stood in the red zone here.

Green offstage is free, edgeguard her or forever hold ur peace.

Otherwise you need to literally stand in the middle of the stage where the green is or you'll die for it.

This is from a Bowser player, I'm sure shorter characters don't have this problem but it happened to me when I played Cloud and Bowser so idk.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo things:

1) A lot of people including myself were theorycrafting Mewtwo to be a lot better than common perception, so it's not like the theory about Mewtwo was wrong. Theory fueled results, results further fueled theory, and it got to a point where Mewtwo has won a major national tournament before the majority of the roster. I'm not saying that Abadango sat down and read Smashboards and came away a champion, but robust development of a character (and thus the increasing potential for them to make a splash) comes from having players inspired to do more with the character. High placings can do this, but so can theory. If players sense the potential of a character, and if they're rewarded in some way for their efforts, then it inspires others to use the character as well.

Incidentally, this is why I think character loyalists are important to games, even if they're not playing the best of the best. All it really takes is one DKWill to spark the fire in other Gorillas.

2) Is it safe to call Mewtwo a high risk, high effort, high reward character now?

3) Mewtwo has a slow double jump, but you can cover it to a certain extent with air dodge (M2 disappears even before it starts to actually move). Also. Mewtwo emerges from the air dodge pretty much at the height of his second jump, almost as if it were designed that way...

 

[New_Dumal]

Imagine if people learn about the Shield button.
I really, really doubt it's that hard too keep his position against a Corrin in the ledge.
Do you tried to shield until the invulnerability goes off? Corrin probably has no faster option at the ledge than most tilts (Bowser DTilt) when the invulnerability frames are done.
It's very hard to ledge abuse in this game, sadly. I don't think Corrin is that problematic there at all.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh man I'm having deja vu right now.

 

[PK Gaming]

SORRY TO TOPIC CHANGE BUT

View attachment 105202

This image is important. I've noticed that once Corrin gets the ledge, she always gets back for free mostly because Side B is unreactable and kills at ludicrously early percentages. After playing against a Corrin today I noticed that I always got hit by... something (literally any of her bull**** moves, but mostly Dragon Lunge) whenever I stood in the red zone here.

Green offstage is free, edgeguard her or forever hold ur peace.

Otherwise you need to literally stand in the middle of the stage where the green is or you'll die for it.

This is from a Bowser player, I'm sure shorter characters don't have this problem but it happened to me when I played Cloud and Bowser so idk.

That image assumes that Corrin isn't going to go for the ledge nine times out of 10 because....why? Side B as a consistent recovering tool? Koopa are you for real?

There are various ways of dealing with Corrin's ledge options depending on the situation/your character. Don't be lazy and do the same thing over and over again.

 

[Xinc]

SORRY TO TOPIC CHANGE BUT

View attachment 105202

This image is important. I've noticed that once Corrin gets the ledge, she always gets back for free mostly because Side B is unreactable and kills at ludicrously early percentages. After playing against a Corrin today I noticed that I always got hit by... something (literally any of her bull**** moves, but mostly Dragon Lunge) whenever I stood in the red zone here.

Green offstage is free, edgeguard her or forever hold ur peace.

Otherwise you need to literally stand in the middle of the stage where the green is or you'll die for it.

This is from a Bowser player, I'm sure shorter characters don't have this problem but it happened to me when I played Cloud and Bowser so idk.

Ganon things. Corrin's recovery is especially difficult to edgeguard if it's the up b. The multihit properties as Corrin comes up at a diagonal angle is especially difficult. I stress that it's important to tipman EARLY, so the last weak hitbox does hit Corrin as he/she collides into you, and sends Corrin back to the depths of hell.