I'm down, P3
-
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(」・ω・)」 MARS la Marf in Smash 4 (／・ω・)／
- Thread starter Virgilijus
- Start date
I'm down, P3
PEACE7
Smash Champion
Since we are on the ike subject, here's a semi old match of me against one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvSILq6Fzks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvSILq6Fzks
Player-1
Smash Legend
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
CJ, I have to break your heart and tell you that I'm pretty much confirmed for Retribution.
So you should probably fix that thing that was stopping you from going.
So you should probably fix that thing that was stopping you from going.
∫unk
Smash Master
you guys should play street fighter
DeLux
Player that used to be Lux
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2010
- Messages
- 9,302
Even the top level ICs don't use my desyncs and most of them don't tripless CGs. I think I still might be the only one to really use this stuff. Some people on occasion, but a year and a half post discovery, it's not like a "top level use this stuff, mid level doesn't" sort of divide. People will once in awhile throw it out as a gimmick, but they won't run it as a feature style to their play. If I'm the only one to use it, it means that it doesn't matter for top level, but matters for mid level ICs then?
But I agree with the rest of the shenanigans you're talking about. Matchups don't really matter because of the variety of different playstyles and abilities to an extent. Obviously there are things that do matter, but being able to bait things out and punishing it is something that transcends MU's.
Ayce God
RIP Nova 9
Zano
Smash Master
**** you, P3
Player-1
Smash Legend
Ya I know you were sandbagging, else you would have went Marth and not Ike
NEO on stream:
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp
http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp
Player-1
Smash Legend
Cj top tier negotiation skills
ScareMl
Smash Journeyman
= finally going to tourniesBought a New car today!
Should have been 11k
asked for 6.5
Talked them down to 2.9
-Jumpman-
Smash Champion
Then it shouldn't 'have been' 11k. Extremely overpriced in that caseBought a New car today!
Should have been 11k
asked for 6.5
Talked them down to 2.9
KBB says it should be sold for around 11. It was in an estate that a lawyer friend of mine was the executor of. Lawyers hate dealing with cars in estates since they responsible for keeping insurance, registration, etc up. All you need to do is find super lazy lawyers, and a dead person that has no next of kin, and you get super cheap everything. That's why he was only asking for half price originally. I just managed to get him to go lower and lower because I knew he didn't care that much (not his car or money) and didn't want to deal with keeping the estate up.
I know there's an obvious step missing here (because I honestly don't really know it), but -
Look at your regional daily/weekly newspaper. By law they have to publish names of estates without known next of kin looking for people who may be (at least they do in Australia?) so you can often find contact details of said estates and try and get lucky in finding stuff.
Look at your regional daily/weekly newspaper. By law they have to publish names of estates without known next of kin looking for people who may be (at least they do in Australia?) so you can often find contact details of said estates and try and get lucky in finding stuff.
Idk, seems reasonable though.
In other news, humans are only 40% human:
http://www.gizmag.com/turing-test-ut2004-botprize/24308/
In other news, humans are only 40% human:
http://www.gizmag.com/turing-test-ut2004-botprize/24308/
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Hey guys! I used Marth for the majority of the tournament I went to today (and yesterday). If you guys could watch at least a couple of my matches and comment/analyze/critique, I'd appreciate it. I couldn't save any of my tourney matches, unfortunately - just practically 2 hours of friendlies and MMs that I did on livestream. I figured more of you would see it if I posted here instead of the video forum...
http://www.twitch.tv/wwwsmash/b/334000263
I started MMing a ton of people starting at 2:29:10 and lasting until the end of the video. I fought a diddy kong player in 3 separate sets, an ICs player, an MK player, and a Snake player. I had trouble vs the meta knight player (starting at 3:17:58). I'm still not entirely sure how to recover safely against MK. I also used Marth for 3 sets in the doubles tourney (and my first set vs pelca and bc should be on livestream somewhere)... I'll gladly read any feedback for any of the sets I played or any MU specific insight.
http://www.twitch.tv/wwwsmash/b/334000263
I started MMing a ton of people starting at 2:29:10 and lasting until the end of the video. I fought a diddy kong player in 3 separate sets, an ICs player, an MK player, and a Snake player. I had trouble vs the meta knight player (starting at 3:17:58). I'm still not entirely sure how to recover safely against MK. I also used Marth for 3 sets in the doubles tourney (and my first set vs pelca and bc should be on livestream somewhere)... I'll gladly read any feedback for any of the sets I played or any MU specific insight.
Got to play a little Marth in Alabama the other weekend. I played a doubles match against Reflex and went Random. Both times it gave me Marth. I managed to spike his Charizard killing him at 33% like a pro would. That's about the gist of my Marth highlights for now.
Wow this thread is unusually quiet.
Spent a day this past weekend playing with Ryo. He says my defensive game is great but I need to work a lot on the aggressive part.
Ways of working on smart aggression and what are each of your favorite situations to look for to determine when you start going on the offensive
Inb4clowsayscjtraining
Spent a day this past weekend playing with Ryo. He says my defensive game is great but I need to work a lot on the aggressive part.
Ways of working on smart aggression and what are each of your favorite situations to look for to determine when you start going on the offensive
Inb4clowsayscjtraining
Zano
Smash Master
Nike, we need you.
clowsui
Smash Legend
lmao i have terrible aggression also thanks to youWow this thread is unusually quiet.
Spent a day this past weekend playing with Ryo. He says my defensive game is great but I need to work a lot on the aggressive part.
Ways of working on smart aggression and what are each of your favorite situations to look for to determine when you start going on the offensive
Inb4clowsayscjtraining
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
I find it's highly based on picking your openings and knowing when to shift gears when you catch them out of position.
I might post more later with my thoughts on this, but it's a very intuitive thing.
I might post more later with my thoughts on this, but it's a very intuitive thing.
Nike.
Smash Hero
That's all he says to me.. which I do need to do it more..but I'm letting myself get bored too fast.. =PWow this thread is unusually quiet.
Spent a day this past weekend playing with Ryo. He says my defensive game is great but I need to work a lot on the aggressive part.
Ways of working on smart aggression and what are each of your favorite situations to look for to determine when you start going on the offensive
Inb4clowsayscjtraining
All I do is teach options and the like. Aggressive play is using the options to create pressure and forcing a reaction as a result. In order to be really good at aggressive play, though, I feel as you though you need to be able to react to their reaction consistently enough to capitalize on your ability to pressure them.
Favorite situations to look for?
I hate you.
Because it's boring lol.
clowsui
Smash Legend
Cactuar has a lot to say about learning how to play aggressively...I just don't know where the information is. Cactus help me? <3
That being said aggression with Marth isn't solely based on reacting to their reaction imo, what you're describing is awfully close to or just is counterattacking and I think that's only a very small part of offense. I think effective offense has to do with consistently pressuring the opponent into positions with reduced options, systematically conditioning the opponent to choose options in a way that allows you to cover many of those options at once, and overall maintaining tight control over the pace of the match. Marth as a character has a long way to go because while much research has been done on the first (Marth's trap game is really developed), ways of doing #2 and #3 have not been thoroughly researched/exhibited by anyone (mostly because #1 is the most rewarding marginally when mastered and because #2 and #3 are really difficult).
Though it's unrelated to what you were saying + you know this, I think it's worth noting that Marth is actually a character without the option to be played defensively at a high level in Brawl. This is because Marth is a character that fundamentally relies on his opponent making mistakes, and the engine/design of Brawl is made such a way that defense is a lot easier than offense. As such, Marth is required to play offensively because the opponent will have the option of defaulting to playstyles/habits that have large margins of safety AKA playstyles/habits that expose Marth's weakness of relying on mistakes
That being said aggression with Marth isn't solely based on reacting to their reaction imo, what you're describing is awfully close to or just is counterattacking and I think that's only a very small part of offense. I think effective offense has to do with consistently pressuring the opponent into positions with reduced options, systematically conditioning the opponent to choose options in a way that allows you to cover many of those options at once, and overall maintaining tight control over the pace of the match. Marth as a character has a long way to go because while much research has been done on the first (Marth's trap game is really developed), ways of doing #2 and #3 have not been thoroughly researched/exhibited by anyone (mostly because #1 is the most rewarding marginally when mastered and because #2 and #3 are really difficult).
Though it's unrelated to what you were saying + you know this, I think it's worth noting that Marth is actually a character without the option to be played defensively at a high level in Brawl. This is because Marth is a character that fundamentally relies on his opponent making mistakes, and the engine/design of Brawl is made such a way that defense is a lot easier than offense. As such, Marth is required to play offensively because the opponent will have the option of defaulting to playstyles/habits that have large margins of safety AKA playstyles/habits that expose Marth's weakness of relying on mistakes
Which is what I said, lol
You pressure them into a situation where they're forced to choose from a limited pool of options. Your pressure limits their options to X,Y,Z where your A counters their X and Y, your B counters Y and Z, and your C counters Z and X. You then need to react to X Y or Z.
The main difference between that and normal counter attacking being that is in the sheer number of options your opponent has and that it's far more difficult to effectively cover them all.
Aggressive play is certainly based around limiting options to as few as possible so you only need to focus on a very few of yours instead of needing to choose one of a vast number of options.
You pressure them into a situation where they're forced to choose from a limited pool of options. Your pressure limits their options to X,Y,Z where your A counters their X and Y, your B counters Y and Z, and your C counters Z and X. You then need to react to X Y or Z.
The main difference between that and normal counter attacking being that is in the sheer number of options your opponent has and that it's far more difficult to effectively cover them all.
Aggressive play is certainly based around limiting options to as few as possible so you only need to focus on a very few of yours instead of needing to choose one of a vast number of options.
Nike.
Smash Hero
tbh, I just go for balls deep reads more than I should.
clowsui
Smash Legend
We just define counter attacking differently then
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
I'll run through a set of mine after class and give the mental breakdown on the situations where I choose to switch gears into aggressive mode.
Edit: Very conveniently, a set literally JUST came up on YT that I played at Hellasmashed VI (August 20th). Going to use that one.
Raziek
Charging Limit All Day
[yt]wzRbAB56pOE[/yt]
[collapse=self-critique]
I make a good amount of mistakes early on, so I'm not gonna focus on those and just focus on where I landed hits and chose to follow up.
0:07 - Landed a fishing nair, immediately followed up with fair to get him to the ledge.
0:23 - Technical Error, not supposed to have been Dash attack. Would have followed up on that hit.
0:52 - Caught him with fair, soon as I got the hard knockdown on the plat, gave me the cue to go in. Almost always pressure on a hard knockdown.
1:03 - Even thought the followup wasn't guaranteed, after landed the fair I chose to keep the pressure on, and I follow up with a D-Smash to cover the defensive option typically elicited from the pressure. Covered a non-PS by pushing him to the ledge, covered roll, and DK's spotdodge is a questionable choice in that situation, due to DB as an option.
1:13 - Chose U-throw for the juggle trap. Got bair out of it.
1:23 - Empty jump to gauge reaction, once I saw him jump, naired on reaction. Uair followup nearly impossible to avoid, D-tilt unlikely to be PS'd and either puts him on the ledge or gets him hit.
1:30 - He escaped the ledge trap, so I did DB2 to try to poke a spotdodge, he didn't, so I stopped it and anti-air'd his punish attempt with f-tilt.
1:35 - Though unsafe, the goal of those fairs was to regain stage presence and move him towards the ledge for safer traps. After landing the fair, he could really only punish me by trading with nair, so I charged the U-Smash to eat the landing. At worst, I trade with nair. He would likely go to the ledge otherwise, so I didn't expect to get punished.
1:42. Once in the air, standard uair/bair into DB frame trap.
1:48 - I think that D-Smash was meant to be a d-tilt, and I got killed for it.
1:52 - Limited his options by going to the platform, so I went in on it. Got nair for it.
2:02 - I shouldn't have double jumped away there, as that let him back on. Lucky to have caught him with the 08 Nair whiff F-Smash.
2:28. By landing Bair I severely limited his options, making nair a very safe follow-up to cross-up with.
2:35 - This string sees a lot of cross-up nair into DB/fair, since I find it quite hard for DK to punish in that scenario.
2:48 - If I had spaced that DB a bit better, he'd have whiffed his grab on the backstep, but alas.
2:53 - Single DB allowed me to either stab or bait (I'm not sure if he dropped shield) with D-tilt, and the hard knockdown allowed me to followup on an already weakened shield with a shieldbreak read. Went for it largely due to my low percent and the "shieldbreak" itch.
Game 2
3:10 - More low percent followups. Always try to trap if you get them off-stage, most characters simply can't deal with it, though some can counter-attack if they're gutsy. Can be baited in that case.
3:18 - Pivot grab trap, reset ledge trap. Didn't expect the roll, but...
3:22 - landing fair into hard knockdown set me up for the jump over trap. (In this case, knowing the range on DK's get-up attack.)
3:28 - Jab into D-tilt gets him back on the ledge. Messed up the trap by not uairing quickly enough, got baired for it.
3:33 - I really like the rising bair/falling fair trap on some characters.
3:38 - Jab bait for Up-B. At worst he's pushed to the ledge, due to the unlikelihood of him dropping then re-shielding to get a PS on the up-B.
3:56 - I slightly overestimate the push on D-Smash here, so I get punished. The F-Smash I just got read on, should have gone to the ledge instead.
4:14 - Low shield = jab pressure, especially on DK.
4:30 - Got him onto the platform. Followup.
4:45 - More shield pressure. Falling uair, single DB to encourage holding shield, grab. D-throw to ledge trap again. In this situation I'm just playing reactionary, short-hopping around the ledge to counter his option.
4:56 - He goes to the platform, so I position for a safe bair to pressure.
5:00 - I run into bair like 4 times. I'm awesome. Got really lucky to not get my shield broken for foolishly taking the hard knockdown.
5:14 - He allows me to get back over him, getting me back in the commanding position. Fair, Nair, D-Smash tipper on shield keeps me safe enough.
5:16 - JUMP ON REACTION TO DK'S SIDE-B. I knew I could break, and of hardknockdown, break, and getting stuck in the ground, hard KD gives me another chance. I got away on the get-up attack.
5:23 - Bit of fishing from the D-Smash. Uair trap following that, got hit by uair for trying the same thing twice.
5:35 - Again he went to the platform, and bair grabs me the kill.
5:48 - Falling DB was risky here, but it just seemed.... right. It beat out a spotdodge and grab, and I couldn't do much else that close to the ground. One of those intuition things.
5:57 - Bad roll on my part, don't think I meant to do that.
6:03 - Running under to DB allowed me to take center again.
6:05 - Cross-up nair into F-Smash. DK's shield so big, easy to cross-up safely.
6:20 - A good amount of ledge-trapping here until I mess up and have to give up positioning because I baired instead of retreating fair.
6:23 - Airdodge trap. Again, because I'm in DK's blind spot, really all he can do.
6;40 - RCO lag should have gotten me killed here, and it was a major mistake, but I get away with it.
7:14 - AGAIN, Jump on reaction. Lucky not to have been killed for getting GUA shielded.
Ending was a hell of a lot of nerves, and knowing each other. I train with Attila all the time, so I know DK well.
[/collapse]
Key situations:
1) Hard Knockdown
2) Opponent on Platform
3) Opponent near ledge
4) Opponent Unlikely to power-shield
5) Opponent Low Shield
6) Ledge traps
7) Air traps
8) Blind spots
[collapse=self-critique]
I make a good amount of mistakes early on, so I'm not gonna focus on those and just focus on where I landed hits and chose to follow up.
0:07 - Landed a fishing nair, immediately followed up with fair to get him to the ledge.
0:23 - Technical Error, not supposed to have been Dash attack. Would have followed up on that hit.
0:52 - Caught him with fair, soon as I got the hard knockdown on the plat, gave me the cue to go in. Almost always pressure on a hard knockdown.
1:03 - Even thought the followup wasn't guaranteed, after landed the fair I chose to keep the pressure on, and I follow up with a D-Smash to cover the defensive option typically elicited from the pressure. Covered a non-PS by pushing him to the ledge, covered roll, and DK's spotdodge is a questionable choice in that situation, due to DB as an option.
1:13 - Chose U-throw for the juggle trap. Got bair out of it.
1:23 - Empty jump to gauge reaction, once I saw him jump, naired on reaction. Uair followup nearly impossible to avoid, D-tilt unlikely to be PS'd and either puts him on the ledge or gets him hit.
1:30 - He escaped the ledge trap, so I did DB2 to try to poke a spotdodge, he didn't, so I stopped it and anti-air'd his punish attempt with f-tilt.
1:35 - Though unsafe, the goal of those fairs was to regain stage presence and move him towards the ledge for safer traps. After landing the fair, he could really only punish me by trading with nair, so I charged the U-Smash to eat the landing. At worst, I trade with nair. He would likely go to the ledge otherwise, so I didn't expect to get punished.
1:42. Once in the air, standard uair/bair into DB frame trap.
1:48 - I think that D-Smash was meant to be a d-tilt, and I got killed for it.
1:52 - Limited his options by going to the platform, so I went in on it. Got nair for it.
2:02 - I shouldn't have double jumped away there, as that let him back on. Lucky to have caught him with the 08 Nair whiff F-Smash.
2:28. By landing Bair I severely limited his options, making nair a very safe follow-up to cross-up with.
2:35 - This string sees a lot of cross-up nair into DB/fair, since I find it quite hard for DK to punish in that scenario.
2:48 - If I had spaced that DB a bit better, he'd have whiffed his grab on the backstep, but alas.
2:53 - Single DB allowed me to either stab or bait (I'm not sure if he dropped shield) with D-tilt, and the hard knockdown allowed me to followup on an already weakened shield with a shieldbreak read. Went for it largely due to my low percent and the "shieldbreak" itch.
Game 2
3:10 - More low percent followups. Always try to trap if you get them off-stage, most characters simply can't deal with it, though some can counter-attack if they're gutsy. Can be baited in that case.
3:18 - Pivot grab trap, reset ledge trap. Didn't expect the roll, but...
3:22 - landing fair into hard knockdown set me up for the jump over trap. (In this case, knowing the range on DK's get-up attack.)
3:28 - Jab into D-tilt gets him back on the ledge. Messed up the trap by not uairing quickly enough, got baired for it.
3:33 - I really like the rising bair/falling fair trap on some characters.
3:38 - Jab bait for Up-B. At worst he's pushed to the ledge, due to the unlikelihood of him dropping then re-shielding to get a PS on the up-B.
3:56 - I slightly overestimate the push on D-Smash here, so I get punished. The F-Smash I just got read on, should have gone to the ledge instead.
4:14 - Low shield = jab pressure, especially on DK.
4:30 - Got him onto the platform. Followup.
4:45 - More shield pressure. Falling uair, single DB to encourage holding shield, grab. D-throw to ledge trap again. In this situation I'm just playing reactionary, short-hopping around the ledge to counter his option.
4:56 - He goes to the platform, so I position for a safe bair to pressure.
5:00 - I run into bair like 4 times. I'm awesome. Got really lucky to not get my shield broken for foolishly taking the hard knockdown.
5:14 - He allows me to get back over him, getting me back in the commanding position. Fair, Nair, D-Smash tipper on shield keeps me safe enough.
5:16 - JUMP ON REACTION TO DK'S SIDE-B. I knew I could break, and of hardknockdown, break, and getting stuck in the ground, hard KD gives me another chance. I got away on the get-up attack.
5:23 - Bit of fishing from the D-Smash. Uair trap following that, got hit by uair for trying the same thing twice.
5:35 - Again he went to the platform, and bair grabs me the kill.
5:48 - Falling DB was risky here, but it just seemed.... right. It beat out a spotdodge and grab, and I couldn't do much else that close to the ground. One of those intuition things.
5:57 - Bad roll on my part, don't think I meant to do that.
6:03 - Running under to DB allowed me to take center again.
6:05 - Cross-up nair into F-Smash. DK's shield so big, easy to cross-up safely.
6:20 - A good amount of ledge-trapping here until I mess up and have to give up positioning because I baired instead of retreating fair.
6:23 - Airdodge trap. Again, because I'm in DK's blind spot, really all he can do.
6;40 - RCO lag should have gotten me killed here, and it was a major mistake, but I get away with it.
7:14 - AGAIN, Jump on reaction. Lucky not to have been killed for getting GUA shielded.
Ending was a hell of a lot of nerves, and knowing each other. I train with Attila all the time, so I know DK well.
[/collapse]
Key situations:
1) Hard Knockdown
2) Opponent on Platform
3) Opponent near ledge
4) Opponent Unlikely to power-shield
5) Opponent Low Shield
6) Ledge traps
7) Air traps
8) Blind spots