The Official Jigglypuff Discussion Thread

Brawl has been out for too long to not have a discussion thread in here:

Things to ask questions about or give advice for:
-General strategy
-Combos/air tech chasing methods
-Approaching methods
-Auto canceled aerials
-Edgeguarding
-The ****ty *** rest that those ****ers in Japan gave us
-Character matchups
-Stages and the strategies and johns that come along with them
-Anything else that you would normally create a new thread for

Please do not post the following:
-Spam
-Pointless posts
-Flamming

So I figured out all the percents that people live until with DI listed them in order from dieing first to last:

Edit: I compared the %'s to dieing without DI and it basically shows which characters live longer when they use attacks over air dodging. ie. The +5's are basically equally effected by air dodges and attacks.

Neutral Stages:
Jiggs 57% +5
Metaknight 64% +5
Sheik 64% +5
Zelda 65% +5
Fox 65% +7
Peach 66% +5
Olimar 67% +5
ZSamus 69% +8
GW 69% +12
Y. Link 70% +5
Lucas 70% +5
Squirtle 70% +16
Falco 70% +5
Kirby 71% +12
Diddy 71% +5
Luigi 72% +5
Pit 73% +5
Lucario 73% +5
Rob 75% +5
Yoshi 77% +6
Sonic 77% +9
Charizard 78% +6
Wario 78% +6
Wolf 79% +6
Samus 80% +11
Mario 81% +14
Marth 81% +14
Bowser 81% +6
Pika 83% +21
Ivysaur 85% +15
IC's 86% +23
C. Falcon 88% +9
DDD 93% +6
Ganon 94% +18
Ike 97% +20
Link 98% +23
DK 100% +20
Snake 103% +20

Green Greens:
Olimar-51%
GW-51%
MK-61%
Bowser-71%
Snake-76%
DDD-80%

*Note 1: I compared the %'s to dieing without DI and it basically shows which characters live longer when they use attacks over air dodging. ie. The +5's are basically equally effected by air dodges and attacks.

*Note 2: Air dodging made the difference about 0-1% of the death percent, an attack is most likely always better to use when you get set back hard enough to die.

*Note 3: Heavier characters do not always die last over the top. There are many other factors such as falling speed, nature of the move used (not all moves cut momentum equally), differences in ability to DI (I don't know if this exist), and other things I don't know about.

*Note 4: While I tested these percents multiple times and such, there is still some possibility of error. There may be a better move to cancel out momentum with any given rested character, and its possible that my timings were off. As far as the timings go, the difference between starting a dair a couple frames apart could mean the difference between ganon dieing at 85% or living at 93%. Generally the hit stun finishes when they are close to the top of the screen but I couldn't tell an exact time when the hit stun wore out so I just mashed an attack over and over again and sometimes the move came out a couple frames sooner than other times. If someone finds out that a character can live longer than what I posted, please mention it.

Edit: Post 500, woot!

General Jiggs Strategy

Approach
Your best approach in most cases is going to be poking them with bairs. Before 30ish% you just want to poke them by spacing your bairs well and retreating in the air after it hits, until after 30ish%. If you follow up a hit before 30%, they will be able to hit you back before you can get another bair or shield. With doing single bairs, you should learn the timing to auto cancel the bair.

After 30% you can bair and then either choose to back away or you can follow it up by staying in their face. If you stay in they're face then you have a couple of options, you can either do another bair or uair in the same sh, or you can land and shield. If you land with another bair or uair, you can usually follow it up with more aerials, just watch out for their attack or airdodge when you try to follow up your hit.

Basically you need to switch it up and read what your opponent is going to do. If you take the hit them again route they can shield the next hit and then do what they want, if you take the shield route then they can hit you before you get your shield out. As long as you keep them guessing and can read what they are going to do, its smart to advance a decent amount. If you hit they're shield, do not advance.

Another good approach is to run and shield, and then react to what your opponent does. Jiggs has one of the shortest initial dashes in the game. Its good to use against characters that out range you and you can keep in their face and keep the pressure up with it. watch out for grabs. If they expect you to shield, they can just grab you, so keep switching it up using grab and the occasional dash attack.

Of course this isn't the only way you should be approaching, and in all the madness you should be throwing out other moves, but this is just a basic approach strategy.

Rests
Know the percents that they will die from a rest, and use the rest as soon as it will kill. sh dair combos into rest if you get the timing down right, you need to ff right before you hit the ground.

When they are at a good percent, do dair's on them/their shield. If you dair, and get 3/4th of the way through the dair and you haven't landed a hit yet, you can retreat pretty safely. The dair shield pokes a lot, so watch out for the poke on the 5th or 6th hit (8 total hits), and then rest them. Just make sure you practice the timing in practice mode. (If you do it right, the consecutive hits thing should say that its a combo.

Powershield
Powershield can often lead into rest as well. Certain moves will push a character back far enough and others auto cancel so that you can't shield grab or retaliate. If you learn how to powershield it can lead into rest. When you play against a good player, they will quickly realize that they will get powershield rested and stop using those moves, but no worries, even though you aren't going to gain a rest hit, it will limit their approach options even more.

Metaknight
Metaknight is ****ing gay.

Wanna be a pro Puff in Brawl?



Have some before a match. It's like edibile box tag.

What are some of your guys advice for a good approach, I seem to be doing relatively well with the Bair spam approach, and with characters like Marth, air dodging behind them and punishing their Fsmash. Also even though it was Nerfed, I can't get over my habit of pounding as a approach, works better if you are both in the air though.

Also because I love Resting so much, I've been working day in and day out looking for new Resting combos, I believe there are a few things I have stumbled upon and under the right circumstances work excellent.

Pound to Rest on fat characters (DeDeDe is who I do it to the most)
On characters like DeDeDe and other Heavy or Fat characters, a Pound (Seems to work to ~40% or less) you can simply Pound, immediately jump, and Rest, will not kill but it will stack up quite a bit of Damage. (DI may either Help you land it, or make it harder/impossible to land.)

Pound that Shield to Rest
What I have noticed, from playing Game and Watch is that poking through shield (his Bair) seems very easy with some attacks. So I decided to try to Pound and other aerials to shields and see if there is a spot where it could poke through, but to no avail, but then I thought about Rest, it comes out in 1 Frame right? It's easier to hit than Melee right? So I decided to try Pounding someones shield then Resting, and it really seems to be effective. Once again on Fatter characters like DeDeDe it works much more effectively.
It seems to work in two ways, either how it is supposed to or by the opposite players error, here are the circumstances I have observed:

1)Shield is pounded, leaving an area of the character exposed to rest, you immediately Rest resulting in you Resting them while in shield. You really don't get punished too bad since you either get it off, or simply get shield grabbed (well most of the time it's not that bad ).

2) Shield is Pounded, the character releases shield for a grab, and similar to Fox's Drill to shine on someones shield, It seems because Rest comes out in 1 Frame, and it is much easier to hit the Rest, it seems to work.

The main thing I am not sure of is Pound angle, if it's better to Pound straight forward (I mostly do it like this) or Rising/Falling Pound, as well as how far away to space, hopefully some of you other Jigglys can test this out a bit more for me. (Most of the times I landed these were on bad people)

Once again all this stuff is attempted on people on WiFi, and further tested. But once again results vary, but it's always nice to know there are still semi-easy ways to rest .

How do you deal with Pit, Diddy, and Marth? Of all match-ups, they seem the most insufferable to me.

I haven't played against any good Diddys or pits.
Against marth, you should abuse the run and shield approach if he is camping you with fairs. You need to get close to him and hit him with fairs and bairs in between his attacks. Also use grabs when you can and just keep up the pressure with always being close to him, and hitting him when he is open, and grabbing. When you are hitting marth around, remember than his sword owns and that you aren't doing true combos so don't do very extended "combos".

We need to discuss when rest should be used. In this rest is fairly easy to pull off and it does 33-45% but the down side is that characters don't start dieing until at least upper 60% and some don't die until around 100%, and if they don't die, they will practically always have a free shot on you. But that doesn't mean you should wait until they will die to rest them. Its like playing against a peach in melee, you should rest away because what's she gonna do to you? While there are characters that will be able to own the **** outta you with a single uncharged attack (ike), most won't be able to kill you from it if you are at a low enough percent and the damage you give them will be greater than you will take... (Ok, I want to type more, but its really late, and the only reason I'm still awake is because when I got home, my dog attacked me and I have bloody holes in the back of my head that I'm keeping pressure on, and the bleeding finally stopped and I'm going to get in the shower to wash the blood out of my hair before it sticks my hair to my head. . I'll type more Monday.)

When Jigglypuff gets knocked off the stage, why do some people do a fair to immediately recover (like Mango and others)? I usually do a pound to move horizontally and to switch my momentum. What are the benefits with the fair approach?

Thanks for the reply, Bowyer; I hope you'll recover well from the attack (did you enter the house in the dark? Dogs tend to get confused, so you should at least talk to them so they can recognize you).

I have also noticed because of Jiggly's still good off the stage presence, it works really well to follow your opponent off the stage, and if they grab the edge, to try and get a Fair, or Bair off on them while they are hanging because it usually leads to a stage spike. Also if you can get them off the stage, manage to get behind them, it's also very useful to push them under the stage, so they can't recover correctly without hitting the stage on their way up.

I've noticed a good stategy againts pits. Just harrass the hell out of him off the stage. just chase his angel *** around and poke him till he is forced to us his up-b then poke him again and its over.

The best way to deal w/ any spammer [especially Pit/Zelda] is get in their face.

DO NOT let them stay away from you, b/c if you allow this to happen they WILL spam you, and free damage for them will ensue. Pit not too bad, because you can fortunatly keep him off the stage for a good amount of time w/ spaced Bairs and then gay his 3rd jump w/ a Nair/Dair/Uair/it doesn't really matter. Pit also has quite abit of startup lag on his Dair so this makes for some very excellent Uair combos-->Rest.. especially since my boy Pit is EXTREMELY light. Basically this is a very offensive fight that you need to keep your pressure on Pit up all the time.. and when he's off the stage.. keep him there.

Diddy's relatively simple aswell.. SH Nairs work wonders here due to the insane priority, and large combo-ability of this move w/ low knockback.. Bthrow-->Uair.. also relativly nice [quite dependent on DI though ] he can't really spam you like Pit could though [honestly people.. a peanut gun >_>] and you shouldn't be on the ground enough for the bananas to really cause you too much grief so bassically just Bair-->60% combo -->Edge guard.

His recovery is basic trash and is [IMO] probably the worst recovery in the game [in terms of ease to edgeguard.. i mean... of toons that are played that is] minis Lucario, so when he's off the stage keep the pressure up, and throw out your Nairs/Fairs to prevent him from doing his famed "Diddy Hump".. and if he's using his weaksauce UpB.. Falling Dair ftw? Jiggs airgame>far over Diddy's.. and counterpick FD.. he's not getting back.. send that ***** back to Africa folks... he's a F***ing MONEKY

Good Day Sirs.

What are your guys strategies on playing Jigglypuff in Teams? I just can't do it.

Space w/ Bairs alot.. use rest.. ALOT... grab more than usual... DI correctly so you don't Die..

and depending on how good your partner is it may be worth it to Uair combo one of your opponents to allow your friend to combo /g@y the other member of their team....

For what it's worth, I've been playing around with Puff Up, and my favorite approach to it is to wall the opponent to prevent recovery. Simply combo them (with fairs, pounds, bairs, whatever), off of the edge, then hop back on and use it. Unless they are someone with multiple jumps and a great Up-B (DeDeDe comes to mind), it is near impossible to dodge if positioned correctly. If you can space yourself so that Jiggs foot is just off of the stage, it should block the edge too.

Yeah I decided today to tough it out and just go Jiggly and it turned out well (We lucked out on Delfino Plaza[Jiggs new Counter Pick IMO]). I have been playing teams but unfortunately for some horrible reason, Team Attack is OFF, so Resting is more situational, and can be punished easier. I found myself, as Chozen said Spacing my Bairs, and of course Nair or Nair to Fair to keep them off the stage/finish them. Jiggly is still a great teammate I believe, paired up with someone who compliments what she lacks now though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8jCKZeMRAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIjn89BBVJU

Anyone want to give advice for my Jigglypuff? Note this is online so my timing and spacing for moves are a bit off but I think you can get a good idea of how I play. I probably need a lot of improvement, especially my DI since it's like nonexistent. I'd post this in the video thread but I'm not sure it's good enough plus it wasn't that exciting, even to me <_<

Orsa said:

For what it's worth, I've been playing around with Puff Up, and my favorite approach to it is to wall the opponent to prevent recovery. Simply combo them (with fairs, pounds, bairs, whatever), off of the edge, then hop back on and use it. Unless they are someone with multiple jumps and a great Up-B (DeDeDe comes to mind), it is near impossible to dodge if positioned correctly. If you can space yourself so that Jiggs foot is just off of the stage, it should block the edge too.

Click to expand...

I don't understand what you are saying

Bowyer is sexy.. ask him more stuffs plz...

and my good sir.. i do suggest you begin to rate vids... or perhaps i can do it much as i used to pick apart matches back in the day... idk.

I thought Bowyer quitted on us? I wish there were competent people around me so I could record matches and post them here for critique. All I have are the lame replays of matches over WiFi (which I still can't record cause I don't have a camera).

Bowyer is frustrated at the fact that with the current depth of characters availible in brawl.. they're are many that are extremely good and Jigglypuff ranks just under the top 10-15...

lol, I'm more than willing to help out, so I guess I'll still be around here.

ChozenOne is a smart man, and he says to ask me questions, so everyone, start asking.

MK is the ****ing gayest piece of **** ever.

Phampy, sorry I haven't watched your vids yet, I didn't even realize they were there until now. I don't have the time now and my computer has a fried graphics card so my access to computers is kinda limited but I'll check your **** out soon.

Haha, don't worry about it. I've improved (slightly?) since then so it's merely a peek at how I play. I've incorporated Uair, Nair, up tilt, grabs, and boost smash or whatever you call it into my game lately and I haven't been losing as much, though maybe it's just the people I find online. Funny thing though, I got so addicted to short hop double aerials at one point that I forgot grabs existed for like a whole week

Still, the quality of those videos are pretty mediocre since the dude I played against apparently recorded it with a camera during the match. Plus it was an online battle so there was slight button delay, but I don't think it's really noticeable except during the 2nd video where I rested a couple of times on accident <_<

If it wasnt for the fact that f***ing Jigglypuff lost her aerial DI to that fatty Wario, and the fact that everyone can now like...Get hit to the very corner of the screen and still survive...

Anyways, what do you guys think of trying to incorporate footstool jumping into our game styles? I mean, its something that would allow Jigglypuff to meteor spike other characters and it would seem to be a good finisher if possible.

I'm a bit skeptic on that. Footstool jumping seems pretty risky to me cause whenever I do a footstool jump, it's always unintentional. I haven't looked around these boards much but other characters with multi-jumps haven't had that strategy brought up as a legitimate technique have they? Maybe it's just me, but I think I'll stick to Nair to Fair or Fair to sweet spotted Fair when I'm off the edge until it turns out that this is truly a viable technique for us to learn.

I do it w/ ROB alot, due to his natural 2 and ofcourse his UpB granting him another aswell.. but i've certainly seen some Dair-->FSJ.. and Nair-->FSJ..

so it isn't nessesarilly my intention everytime, but it does play a role in my off stage game occasionally.. that and airdodge lmao.

With pound nerfed,what do we have left to approach?
Nair is still great,but i really overuse it,the other approach i use are shield grabs,but since jiggly's grabs were nerfed too,i really don't know what to do.

Actually with the loss of WaveDashing, Pound gained ALOT of utility due to being far less punishable.. also empty SH's, Falling Uairs, AutoCancelled Dairs, Roll-->Rest...

There's really can endless number of ways.. or you can ADZ.

Phampy:

First of all, your best approach in most cases, including toon link, is going to be poking them with bairs. Before 30ish% you just want to poke them by spacing your bairs well and retreating in the air after it hits, until after 30ish%. If you follow up a hit before then, they will be able to hit you back before you can get another bair or shield. With doing single bairs, you should learn the timing to auto cancel the bair.

After 30% you can bair and then either choose to back away or you can follow it up by staying in their face. If you stay in they're face then you have a couple of options, you can either do another bair or uair in the same sh, or you can land and shield. If you land with another bair or uair, you can usually follow it up with more aerials, just watch out for their attack or airdodge when you try to follow up your hit.

Basically you need to switch it up and read what your opponent is going to do. If you take the hit them again route they can shield the next hit and then do what they want, if you take the shield route then they can hit you before you get your shield out. As long as you keep them guessing and can read what they are going to do, its smart to advance a decent amount. If you hit they're shield, do not advance.

Another good approach is to run and shield, and then react to what your opponent does. Jiggs has one of the shortest initial dashes in the game. Its good to use against characters that out range you and you can keep in their face and keep the pressure up with it. watch out for grabs. If they expect you to shield, they can just grab you, so keep switching it up using grab and the occasional dash attack.

Of course this isn't the only way you should be approaching, and in all the madness you should be throwing out other moves, but this is just a basic approach strategy.

Also, know the percents that they will die from a rest at, and use the rest as soon as it will kill. sh dair combos into rest if you get the timing down right, you need to ff right before you hit the ground.

when they are at a good percent, do dair's on them/their shield. If you dair, and get 3/4th of the way through the dair and you haven't landed a hit yet, you can retreat pretty safely. The dair shield pokes a lot, so watch out for the poke on the 5th or 6th hit (8 total hits), and then rest them. Just make sure you practice the timing in practice mode. (If you do it right, the consecutive hits thing should say that its a combo.

Ok, now for more stuff based on your video.
-Don't roll through them, thats bad. Rolling away from them however is difficult to punish.

-You should use pound less. They only time I use pound is when I need to get through a move that has huge priority, for instance, I use pound a lot against game & watch.

-You should be more aggressive with edge guarding, jiggs has the ability to go way the **** out there and stay out there for a long time and still make it back, use it.

-There was one point when his shield was low, thats your cue to be completely aggressive because if they shield, then they will get shield poked or shield broken. just be smart about it.

-I would recommend not using rollout, its too easy to get punished for it, but if you do, its best to end it away from you opponent or off stage.

-The biggest problem was your approach game, read the approach stuff I wrote earlier in this post.

-Nair is great for edge guarding, so is weak fair to fair.

-Be patient.

-most character's weak spot is 45 degree's up in front of them. When you are playing against a campy player, use that space. Its kinda difficult to approach them from that angle, but you can get closer by using that space.

Hope that helps, if you have any more questions or vids just ask.

Your wall of text hurts my eyes

Make use of enter key, and space bar ;p



[good advice <(^_^)b ]

tl;dr

Just kidding. I don't really roll behind my opponents anymore cause I learned about how easily punishable it is after playing friends over online who were actually decent. The pound thing is sort of a hard habit to break but I'll give it a shot. I tried doing more Bair pokes and the whole don't follow them prior to 30% and it seems to be working so far. I'm not getting punished as much against my friend's Wolf.

About the whole be more aggressive off the edge, I do it a lot more often now since I've become more tolerant of lag online but offline I've always done it, though still in the wrong way for a while. Before, I always tried for a sweetspotted Fair or Bair till I learned it didn't work as well as Nair to Fair or weak Fair to sweetspotted Fair. Dair into Rest is great and I usually use it offline against people between 50-80% since that seems to be the general range when they get star ko'd by it. I don't attempt it online too often though, the lag ruins me and I've had a couple of times where people perfect shielded it, yeah not fun to see <_<

Thanks for the advice though, I just need to work on them so it's not a forced thing though and comes instinctively. The only thing I sort of need some elaboration on is this though:

Bowyer said:

Jiggs has one of the shortest initial dashes in the game. Its good to use against characters that out range you and you can keep in their face and keep the pressure up with it. watch out for grabs.

Click to expand...

Basically when you start a dash, you cannot shield until your initial dash animation ends. Most toons can't shield for a good second or so, so dashing right next to your opponent leaves you open for a short time. Jiggs has one of the shortest initial dashes in the game, so as an approach you can run and then shield and you will generally be able to get your shield out before your opponent can hit you with an attack, so you can run, shield, and then do whatever option is available from there.

Also, more advice: When playing online, play marth instead XD

Ch0zen0ne said:

Your wall of text hurts my eyes

Make use of enter key, and space bar ;p



[good advice <(^_^)b ]

Click to expand...

There, I edited it, happy?

If you have any advice or disagree with me on anything, feel free to comment.

Bowyer said:

Basically when you start a dash, you cannot shield until your initial dash animation ends. Most toons can't shield for a good second or so, so dashing right next to your opponent leaves you open for a short time. Jiggs has one of the shortest initial dashes in the game, so as an approach you can run and then shield and you will generally be able to get your shield out before your opponent can hit you with an attack, so you can run, shield, and then do whatever option is available from there.

Also, more advice: When playing online, play marth instead XD

Click to expand...

Ah, so that's what you meant.

Plus, Olimar > Marth, shieldgrab abuse FTW. Still, I'm considering those two or Falco for a 2nd though with Falco online, SHDL is like impossible to do correctly and hit someone as small as Kirby.

Hey Bowyer. I know you said not to use Rollout, but I find that it's not a bad move considering that you only need to charge it for less than a second and it'll still do decent damage and knockback. It has pretty high priority for a Jigglypuff move too.

Any uses for Sing? I landed a Sing on my friend who was at 150% (Pit) and he STILL managed to recover from the sleep before I'd finished singing!

Less than a second is still kinda a lot, most people will be able to either get out of the way or hit you with no problem.

Sing has the same use in brawl as it did in melee, well kinda. When you sing, you can cancel it by landing on a ledge. In melee it lead to a rest and a kill, in brawl it leads to whatever you want but don't expect it to lead to a killing blow unless your opponent is upwards of 80%.

Bowyer said:

There, I edited it, happy?

If you have any advice or disagree with me on anything, feel free to comment.

Click to expand...

No worries/much better


hugs.

edit- also interestingly enough [in melee] you could sing, not face the ledge and still ledgehog; but in brawl you HAVE to face the ledge.. kindof gay.

Thanks and <3's Youko for the sticky

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161924

support your fellow Jiggs brother

Ch0zen0ne said:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=161924

support your fellow Jiggs brother

Click to expand...

$100 MM honestly think someone would accept that?

Good Luck though, if it happens make sure it gets video'd