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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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chillindude829

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,804
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Northern Virginia
**** Chillin, you'd think that within the confines of 65 pages, at 40 posts per page, we would have come to these conclusions at least...I don't know, 100 times? Well, thank god we have you, cause I think we have finally hit the 100th time all that **** has been said. Thanks for utilizing your superiors reasoning ability to end the 'debate.' Really, we couldn't have done it without you.

It's like, we once were blind, but now can see.:laugh:
SCREW U BROOKMAN
 

ToastMAN

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
268
Location
Aka: Mr.Wigz
Good Christ, people are dumb. This statement is so backwards its not even funny.

Brawl certainly has the illusion of balance, due to Sakurai's attempts at "leveling the playing field", but probably moreso because you WANT to see it as balanced, because you're a newcomer to how Smash works and have no clue what you're talking about.

Brawl seems externally balanced, but when you get to the core of the issue, it's just as imbalanced (and maybe even moreso) than Melee. Characters that relied heavily on l-cancelling to reduce lag and even land a hit (Bowser, DK, CF, etc.) are left in the dust. Characters that have slower attacks altogether suffer from other characters being able to drop their shield and immediately punish it with a grab or a quicker attack. Anyone who doesn't have the ability to camp or doesn't have strong anti-camping options is screwed.

You think Melee was bad because only 4 characters were used religiously in tournaments? Just wait until the so-called "Brawl metagame" comes to fruition. I'll bet you any money the top 4 characters used in tournies will be Pit, Snake, Meta, and Wolf.
I think your right with the Balance of brawl, it does see, balanced at first but later on you'll see some chars seperate from the average and becomer *blank* tier.

Characters like Bowser, Snake, DK have so much landing lag because they are not really meant to be fighting in the air, those chars are better off on the ground doing tilts, smashes, grabs and specials....(Especcially snake; Ftilt lol)

your right about three of those chars RDK, after some matches with Wolf they'll see that he was overrated from the beggining...
 

ToastMAN

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
268
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Aka: Mr.Wigz
dont even know WS...

but...Krispy Kreme is Mid tier maybe high Midtier- but if go there when the light is on...pfft theres no contest
 

LavisFiend

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2007
Messages
1,713
Location
Alexandria, Louisiana
dont even know WS...

but...Krispy Kreme is Mid tier maybe high Midtier- but if go there when the light is on...pfft theres no contest
Krispy Kreme has the tendency to tear my stomach all to crap. I guess too many sweets? o.O

I agree though. They must slaughter angels and unicorns and use their blood for the batter, because their donuts just taste heavenly. Donuts are best in the game, but Krispy Kreme does settle well in middle tier. Shipley's on the other hand...

@Sonic Wave: I'M NOT YOUR FRIEND, BUDDY!
 

Jack Kieser

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 11, 2008
Messages
2,961
Location
Seattle, WA
They are also pretty good at secondaries with watermelon and dittos with purple drank. ;D
****, Waffle House is so low tier it's not even funny. The only way they get business is if they trucker-cancel, and even then its not much. Denny's totally ***** Waffle House in terms of breakfast camping, especially when they dash serve. High tier, definitely.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
1,973
Location
Boynton Beach, FL
wtf this thread has 65 pages at 40 posts per page? WTF

here ill end it:

1. melee is obviously a better game competitively than brawl, period
2. however melee is also really really old compared to brawl. the game has been dissected and completely figured out already
3. despite the clear advantage melee has in terms of competitiveness, brawl is newer and there is really no way to sway the entirety of the community to go back to melee. also the competitive smash community has gotten way bigger since the release of brawl, and obviously brawl newbies wont want to go back to melee
4. brawl will be the main smash game regardless, so we might as well enjoy it.

It's amusing how these very points have actually been embellished time and time again, but hold zero weight in a competitive videogame community unless it comes from a Chillindude. The herd mentality on display here is quite sad.

Regardless, I think Card made the most powerful impression on me when he posited the question: "What do you want us to do?" It was at that moment I realized that this veritable sectarian civil war would only come to a conclusion (or armistice) under a consensus of two agreements:

1. Melee is the more competitively companionable title.

2. The competitive community at large will not return to Melee.

This requires Pride digestion from partisans on each side of the dichotomy that Brawl has created. Considering that I believe Ego to be the true heart of the issue here -- each game's respective party's pride levels overriding their abilities to envision a logical conclusion -- people will move forward when they come to, what I believe, will be the inevitable consensus.

On a side note: I find the parallels between the Iraq War and this debacle amusing, also. Depending on how much you understand the details of the civil conflict there, the Melee party = Sunni minority. Brawl party = Shiite majority. Depending on your knowledge of the conflict you can make the rest of the inferences yourself from there. It really forces me to look at the larger picture of what philosophical priorities drive certain physical priorities of humanity.


*edit*

Also, I take large exception here:

2.the game has been dissected and completely figured out already

Just...no. While our knowledge of Melee is vast, the game is far from tapped out. There are numerous under utilized aspects of Melee, some of which could be literally tier-shifting (such as Power Shield). I mean, most top players just started getting technical in the game less than a year ago. Melee enthusiasts have much to look forward to.


-Kimo
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
1,973
Location
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@SynikaL: Dude, you have freaking Ted Kaczynski for your sig. That's awesome.
Have you read his manifesto? Very enlightening. It's sad that many people will choose to ignore it (or choose to be hyper-cynical about his points) simply because it's coming from a terrorist.


-Kye
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
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Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
On a side note: I find the parallels between the Iraq War and this debacle amusing, also. Depending on how much you understand the details of the civil conflict there, the Melee party = Sunni minority. Brawl party = Shiite majority. Depending on your knowledge of the conflict you can make the rest of the inferences yourself from there.
Excellent post. I didn't even realize the parallels you just brought up, but its scary how somewhat true it is.

Regardless, I think Card made the most powerful impression on me when he posited the question: "What do you want us to do?" It was at that moment I realized that this veritable sectarian civil war would only come to a conclusion (or armistice) under a consensus of two agreements:

1. Melee is the more competitively companionable title.

2. The competitive community at large will not return to Melee.

This requires Pride digestion from partisans on each side of the dichotomy that Brawl has created. Considering that I believe Ego to be the true heart of the issue here -- each game's respective party's pride levels overriding their abilities to envision a logical conclusion -- people will move forward when they come to, what I believe, will be the inevitable consensus.
Just wanted to point out, What I posted was on Page 2.... we're now on Page 175 and it's the reason I have not returned or posted in this thread on pages 3 through 174.

Actually that somewhat isn't true, I did post once somewhere in the middle, when I was curious about something completely off topic regarding how much of Brawl changed after E4All. But putting that aside, what you say here is the utmost truth. There is an undeniable conclusion to this entire debate, which everyone should have realized 130+ pages ago. Although it's acceptable that this thread has gone on for so long, since as you said it requires an extreme case of swallowing your pride. As for myself, and probably many others, I came to that conclusion back on page 2, and I still stand here wondering what the entire purpose of this thread was, other than point out the obvious (and not-so-obvious to some) consensus.
 

D20

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Pittsburgh
2. The competitive community at large will not return to Melee.
I don't know how true this statement is. I honestly feel that the lack of depth in Brawl is going to limit its lifespan.

I was at a Brawl/Melee tournament the other day, and this is what I saw.

1.) Melee had 16 entrants. Brawl had about 22 or 24 entrants. Eight of the Melee players entered the Brawl tournament and most of them did so reluctantly. When I asked 4% APR why he entered, his response was something along the lines of "I'm just entering because everyone else is". I, personally, entered because I just wanted to try something new.

2.) Nobody watched any of the Brawl finals. Nobody cared. I believe that the grand finals featured a Pit player and a DDD player, but I'm not 100% sure because I wasn't really watching... and I was sitting right next to them. My back was turned, and I was having a conversation about Brawl and Melee with a couple of other people. In this conversation, we came to the conclusion that Brawl will die when someone loses in the grand finals of a major tournament (FC, OC, *pound*) because of tripping... but that is a topic for another time.

Just...no. While our knowledge of Melee is vast, the game is far from tapped out. There are numerous under utilized aspects of Melee, some of which could be literally tier-shifting (such as Power Shield). I mean, most top players just started getting technical in the game less than a year ago. Melee enthusiasts have much to look forward to.
You are absolutely correct.
 

Smooth Criminal

Da Cheef
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boundless_light
It's amusing how these very points have actually been embellished time and time again, but hold zero weight in a competitive videogame community unless it comes from a Chillindude. The herd mentality on display here is quite sad.

Regardless, I think Card made the most powerful impression on me when he posited the question: "What do you want us to do?" It was at that moment I realized that this veritable sectarian civil war would only come to a conclusion (or armistice) under a consensus of two agreements:

1. Melee is the more competitively companionable title.

2. The competitive community at large will not return to Melee.

This requires Pride digestion from partisans on each side of the dichotomy that Brawl has created. Considering that I believe Ego to be the true heart of the issue here -- each game's respective party's pride levels overriding their abilities to envision a logical conclusion -- people will move forward when they come to, what I believe, will be the inevitable consensus.

On a side note: I find the parallels between the Iraq War and this debacle amusing, also. Depending on how much you understand the details of the civil conflict there, the Melee party = Sunni minority. Brawl party = Shiite majority. Depending on your knowledge of the conflict you can make the rest of the inferences yourself from there. It really forces me to look at the larger picture of what philosophical priorities drive certain physical priorities of humanity.


*edit*

Also, I take large exception here:




Just...no. While our knowledge of Melee is vast, the game is far from tapped out. There are numerous under utilized aspects of Melee, some of which could be literally tier-shifting (such as Power Shield). I mean, most top players just started getting technical in the game less than a year ago. Melee enthusiasts have much to look forward to.


-Kimo
One of the best posts in this thread. Scar, link this ****.

Smooth Criminal
 

Plairnkk

Smash Legend
Joined
Jan 18, 2006
Messages
10,243
to be fair i agree.

chillin, i watched a video of you against drephen from smashaid, that was like a year or two ago, but not that long.

i couldnt believe how drastically you had improved in the period between then and now, even though the game had already been out since 2001 and this was 2006. Everyone has continued getting better, i wouldnt call it tapped.

but i concur, brawl will take over regardless
 

chillindude829

Smash Master
Joined
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Messages
4,804
Location
Northern Virginia
Also, I take large exception here:




Just...no. While our knowledge of Melee is vast, the game is far from tapped out. There are numerous under utilized aspects of Melee, some of which could be literally tier-shifting (such as Power Shield). I mean, most top players just started getting technical in the game less than a year ago. Melee enthusiasts have much to look forward to.


-Kimo
Melee's not completely figured out, but any further advances would be minute. Watch a video of Mew2King playing at his best, and tell me how much more we could advance. Humans are pretty limited with what we can do in a game that requires such precision, and M2K is probably the one who has taken Melee the furthest to this point. If M2K played only Melee for the next 2 years, a video of him then would likely look marginally better than a video of him now. Also, How did most top players just start getting technical a year ago?

to be fair i agree.

chillin, i watched a video of you against drephen from smashaid, that was like a year or two ago, but not that long.

i couldnt believe how drastically you had improved in the period between then and now, even though the game had already been out since 2001 and this was 2006. Everyone has continued getting better, i wouldnt call it tapped.

but i concur, brawl will take over regardless
As the community got better, so did the speed at which players within the community got better. From 2001-2005 or so, I played a lot less Melee overall than I did from 2006-2008. Because the competition as a whole was getting better, I had to play more to keep up. That's why I improved so much from 06 to now.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 15, 2004
Messages
1,973
Location
Boynton Beach, FL
I came to that conclusion back on page 2, and I still stand here wondering what the entire purpose of this thread was, other than point out the obvious (and not-so-obvious to some) consensus.
I will admit that it was somewhat amusing watching both side's arguments become more and more refined, ever solidifying into the inevitability. Proof positive of the corruptible nature of Democracy (the corruptible element here being "Ego") and Polity being the true voice of the people.


-Kimo
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
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If you guys don't want melee to die, then don't let it die. Its not as hard as your pretending it is, most of the old smash community still wants to play Melee. The fact that the huge influx of brawl n00bs don't want to play it doesn't really affect the people who were already here. You guys want to play Melee? Hold *pound* 4, Melee FC: whatever. Stop complaining and DO IT ***GOT.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
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pikachu
If you guys don't want melee to die, then don't let it die. Its not as hard as your pretending it is, most of the old smash community still wants to play Melee. The fact that the huge influx of brawl n00bs don't want to play it doesn't really affect the people who were already here. You guys want to play Melee? Hold *pound* 4, Melee FC: whatever. Stop complaining and DO IT ***GOT.

*points to sig*

Very intuitive! *pats head*

Pinkreaper wants cookie?
 

TheKneeOfJustice

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 26, 2006
Messages
1,307
Location
(KoJapes) Rochester, NY
@Xigger: I thought I had seen every level of intelligence in this thread. But, you wonderfully reminded about how ignorant some of the people we are dealing with are. Thank you.

The biggest issue with to draw people back into melee (this is of course, directed at new brawl players), is I think they just won't be able to appreciate the depth, or the satisfaction you get from doing something complicated.

About Melee tournaments, it might be a hassle, but I'm thinking come summer hosting Smash Bi-weeklies at my home. Anything helps.
 

Card

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2001
Messages
1,237
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
I don't know how true this statement is. I honestly feel that the lack of depth in Brawl is going to limit its lifespan.

I was at a Brawl/Melee tournament the other day, and this is what I saw.

1.) Melee had 16 entrants. Brawl had about 22 or 24 entrants. Eight of the Melee players entered the Brawl tournament and most of them did so reluctantly. When I asked 4% APR why he entered, his response was something along the lines of "I'm just entering because everyone else is". I, personally, entered because I just wanted to try something new.

2.) Nobody watched any of the Brawl finals. Nobody cared. I believe that the grand finals featured a Pit player and a DDD player, but I'm not 100% sure because I wasn't really watching... and I was sitting right next to them. My back was turned, and I was having a conversation about Brawl and Melee with a couple of other people. In this conversation, we came to the conclusion that Brawl will die when someone loses in the grand finals of a major tournament (FC, OC, *pound*) because of tripping... but that is a topic for another time.
I was at a Brawl/Melee tournament the other day, and this is what I saw.

1.) Melee had 6 entrants. Brawl had about 36 entrants. The 6 Melee players were also all in the Brawl Tournament. Due to lack of participants in the Melee tournament, the 6 Melee players just decided to have friendly tournament amongst eachothers, with individual MM's.

2.) Everyone watched the Brawl finals. People cared so much and were cheering their favorites on, there was a lot of energy in the room. I am certain that the grand finals features an Olimar player and a Metaknight player because my eyes were glued to the television screen. At the end of it all, I had a conversation with one of my friends who is arguably one of the top Melee players in Canada. In this conversation we came to the conclusion that it's sad that the community at large won't return to Melee, even though its the more competitive title. Even if Brawl ends up singing its swan song early, people just won't have the motivation to go back to Brawl, they'll just quit all together and wait for SSB4.

============​

My point of this is that YOUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCES is not valid argument here, especially one in dictating a local tournament results, when I have an exact opposite experience which totally cancels out yours. Seriously your entire example is similar to me saying "I beat my friend all the time as Ganondorf, he must be a top tier character"

You should have just stopped after the sentence "I honestly feel that the lack of depth in Brawl is going to limit its lifespan." To that I wouldn't even have to look far for a reply;

Synikal said:
1. Melee is the more competitively companionable title.

2. The competitive community at large will not return to Melee.
Number 2 has your answer. Melee will remain, it will continue to thrive, but it will never continue to grow. No new players to the Smash series will start to play Melee. No melee veterans who are tired of Melee will go back to Melee. No players who care about winning money will go back to Melee, because there will be many more Brawl tournaments to win money from.

You might hate it, but that's just how it's going to be.
 

SynikaL

Smash Lord
Joined
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Boynton Beach, FL
Melee's not completely figured out, but any further advances would be minute. Watch a video of Mew2King playing at his best, and tell me how much more we could advance. Humans are pretty limited with what we can do in a game that requires such precision, and M2K is probably the one who has taken Melee the furthest to this point. If M2K played only Melee for the next 2 years, a video of him then would likely look marginally better than a video of him now. Also, How did most top players just start getting technical a year ago?
I'll admit to being relatively unknown outside FL in competitive circles, which will hurt my credence here. Regardless, I'll boldly state that in my prime, I and a few other FL players (such as Thomas Tipman, Lamb and Shiz) were largely ahead of Melee's technical meta-game by a long-shot. Techniques that were just starting to become somewhat ubiquitous at the end of 07' (Pivots, Waveland variations and more), relatively unknown players such as myself and Tipman (at the time) were doing at excess at the end of 04'.

Marth's Dair combo variations are called "Ken Combos" now, but I actually had the very first videos featuring elaborate Marth combos featuring punctuating Dair spikes -- vids now so old they don't even exist on the internet anymore. In our retirement, Tipman and I actually began to think the community had become stagnant from lack of technical innovation before Shiz and SilentWolf got popular. M2K would destroy me, but even today, I wouldn't consider M2K's playstyle more technical than my own. A lot of people still consider me most technical player, even though that's disputable now. Back then it wasn't.

There are many aspects of Melee worth exploring. Pivoting is still under-utilized. Power Shielding attacks is non-existent in the meta-game today and it's dirt easy to perform. We don't know all of Melee's best combo possibilities. Match-ups keep evolving. Fox and Falco. Certain platform techniques and drops have gone under-utilized. I could go on. Melee's meta-game is faaar from tapped.


-Kye
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
Yea, I agree. I just learned how easy powershielding was cause of Brawl...stupid analog control >_<

Viva La Smash(melee)
 

D20

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
1,602
Location
Pittsburgh
Card, I wasn't making any arguments... just statements.

Everything you said was true. Everything I said was true. Local smash communities differ from place to place. Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and the eastern part of Ohio generally favor Melee over Brawl. Maryland and Virginia seem to be leaning toward Brawl. From what you posted, it seems that your province of Canada will strongly support Brawl.

However, I am just not convinced that four years from now there will be people traveling over 300 miles to play in a major Brawl tournament. If you can prove that to me, I will start to take Brawl seriously. Until then, I will continue to play Melee exclusively.
 

Subach

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
129
I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!

anywho, back to Fast Food tiers.

If you haven't eaten at Western Sizzlin', then chances are your low tier in brain power. WS is CLEARLY god tier.

....I mean, it has asians working at a country steak house. Holy SHI-

Pfft, Asians dominate anyway, what did you expect?
 
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