Lucario is not a clone of Mewtwo.

Lucario is not a clone of Mewtwo; Lucario is Mewtwo's spiritual successor.

We already know this. Ever since the first gameplay impressions started flowing in from 2ch the day before the Japanese release, it's been clear that he isn't Mewtwo Part 2.

Agreed. Some moves do have a distinct Mewtwo flavor, but with a new twist. And by some, the only one I am even fully aware of is the Aura Ball, which in itself has differences involved as well.

JoJoRukus said:

Agreed. Some moves do have a distinct Mewtwo flavor, but with a new twist. And by some, the only one I am even fully aware of is the Aura Ball, which in itself has differences involved as well.

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Yeah, it says something when one of the moves cited as a similarity also has enough differences to make it its own attack. Otherwise you get into a giant brouhaha about characters copying others when in the end they're all just using one of several basic formulae.

He can't be a Mew2 clone because Mew2 aint in the game

But certain aspects of him are clearly based off of Mew2 which I think is what you and most everyone on either "side" are trying to say.

Black/Light said:

He can't be a Mew2 clone because Mew2 aint in the game

But certain aspects of him are clearly based off of Mew2 which I think is what you and most everyone on either "side" are trying to say.

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If they were "clearly based" off Mewtwo, there would be no discussion. As it exists now, the similarities are too vague and nebulous to make a stretch like that without looking sort of foolish.

The word "Luigified" comes to mind... Seriously though, I agree... A lot of Lucario's moves are different from Mewtwo's, not to mention the damage multiplier makes him much more unique... Yes, Mewtwo isn't in the game, but that shouldn't be taken into account in this discussion IMO...

...actually, who cares?

Red Impact said:

If they were "clearly based" off Mewtwo, there would be no discussion. As it exists now, the similarities are too vague and nebulous to make a stretch like that without looking sort of foolish.

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If there where no "certain aspects" of him that where clearly based off of Mew2 than there also wouldn't be any talk about him being simular to Melee Mew2 now would there? (Example: Diddy doesn't remind people of Melee Mew2 when either playing him or whiching him)

The discussion isn't about IF there are "certain aspects" of him that are based on melee Mew2, it's about how much of him was based on Melee Mew2.
We have people saying "he feels like a Mew2 who doesn't suck" after playing him so yeah, there must be some clear similarities between them.

Basicaly, both sides are saying the same thing but in a different light. One "side" just wants to say he is less Mew2 than he looks and the other wants to say he is more Mew2 than those people think. Neither side is trying to say he aint anything like Mew2 because there are clear aspects of him that where last seen in Mew2.

ArgentStew said:

The word "Luigified" comes to mind... Seriously though, I agree... A lot of Lucario's moves are different from Mewtwo's, not to mention the damage multiplier makes him much more unique... Yes, Mewtwo isn't in the game, but that shouldn't be taken into account in this discussion IMO...

...actually, who cares?

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I certanily don't,, but there's certainly a staunch faction out there who has a mule-like stance on this issue. Though as long as they don't ruin it for others, I'm cool with them.

BTW, Luigi-fied is extremely overused. Let's try something a little more normal, like original or unique. Especially since that phrase is being used in a way similar to these two, a character that's been de-cloned.

Except that Lucario never was one in the first place.

Black/Light said:

If there where no "certain aspects" of him that where clearly based off of Mew2 than there also wouldn't be any talk about him being simular to Melee Mew2 now would there? (Example: Diddy doesn't remind people of Melee Mew2 when either playing him or whiching him)

The discussion isn't about IF there are "certain aspects" of him that are based on melee Mew2, it's about how much of him was based on Melee Mew2.
We have people saying "he feels like a Mew2 who doesn't suck" after playing him so yeah, there must be some clear similarities between them.

Basicaly, both sides are saying the same thing but in a different light. One "side" just wants to say he is less Mew2 than he looks and the other wants to say he is more Mew2 than those people think. Neither side is trying to say he aint anything like Mew2 because there are clear aspects of him that where last seen in Mew2.

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I'll tell you what, Black/Light. Track down dual layer Brawl iso that just hit the net and get yourself a Wiikey with the 1.9 update and try out Lucario. Then you'll know why the particular side you're on is stretching it just a wee bit.

No harm done, but it's just as ridiculous as the "Ike is a Roy clone" remarks. People vaguely dissatisfied with the roster sniping at things that aren't there.

I agree that some of his moves were based off of mewtwo, but theyve morfed them into something that can befit lucario

For example: his f-smash has the motion of mewtwo but how much damage it does, how much knockback, and how much reach it has, are cleary all their own

Black/Light said:

*Sigh* I was about to do something else but I guess I have to correct you.

1. WTH side am I on?
I openly stated he aint a clone. I clearly stated what the whole "debate" is about. And most people agree with the stance I have that he does clearly have certain aspects from melee Mew2. . .

That is pretty much my stance on this all summed up.

2. WTH is wrong with him having certain aspects that clearly look to be taken from Mew2? Theres nothing out-right wrong with that atleast IMO. . .a better, more user friendly character than Melee Mew2.

3. Im happy with the roster and I will be the first person to say that there are not any clones in brawl (maybe save Toon Link). Hell, Luigi-ed isn't good enuff to show how different Falco is to Fox to some people's impressions after playing brawl.

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Could not have said it any better, like he said there is nothing wrong with some of lucarios moves based off of Mewtwo. Having it like that can appeal to the lucario fans and the mewtwo fans at the same time. And there are no clones in the roster besides toon link, the people that would have been a clone arnt and the people that were clones arnt anymore.

If they were "clearly based" off Mewtwo, there would be no discussion. As it exists now, the similarities are too vague and nebulous to make a stretch like that without looking sort of foolish.

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He is clearly based off of Mewtwo. What the heck are you guys even debating here? Seriously, he shares over half of Mewtwo's moves and the ones that aren't the same tend to be incredibly similar and serve mostly the same purpose. The major difference is that Lucario is just WAAAAY better than Mewtwo in almost every aspect.

This wasn't even supposed to spark a debate O.O Does anyone get having fun? Oh well, I enjoyed reading all these posts. I did the same thing in the Wolf forum (Which you should all look at my post there.) and they took it as a joke, xD.

MookieRah said:

He is clearly based off of Mewtwo. What the heck are you guys even debating here? Seriously, he shares over half of Mewtwo's moves and the ones that aren't the same tend to be incredibly similar and serve mostly the same purpose. The major difference is that Lucario is just WAAAAY better than Mewtwo in almost every aspect.

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You'd have a point if your post wasn't riddled with generalizations. I could take down this retort with ease by replacing Lucario and Mewtwo with two other character names, but it'd be a waste of my time. If being floaty is enough to make him Mewtwo V2, in the face of everything else, a slew of others are as well.

Lucario is not Mewtwo, nor is he Mewtwo's "spiritual successor". THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS!

Lucario isn't even based off Mewtwo! THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK SIMILAR! IT'S LIKE SAYING BARACK OBAMA AND JOHN MCCAIN ARE RELATED!

Eisenherz said:

Lucario is not Mewtwo, nor is he Mewtwo's "spiritual successor". THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. GET IT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS!

Lucario isn't even based off Mewtwo! THEY ARE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT! THEY DON'T EVEN LOOK SIMILAR! IT'S LIKE SAYING BARACK OBAMA AND JOHN MCCAIN ARE RELATED!

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Hey, you might need to check your Keyboard, it appears your caps lock might be broken >.>

Lucario is not a clone of Mewtwo; Lucario is Mewtwo's spiritual successor.

Sariku.Uchiha said:

Hey, you might need to check your Keyboard, it appears your caps lock might be broken >.>

Lucario is not a clone of Mewtwo; Lucario is Mewtwo's spiritual successor.

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Lucario isn't Mewtwo's spiritual successor. Lucario is Mewtwo's master.

AND CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL

Eisenherz said:

Lucario isn't Mewtwo's spiritual successor. Lucario is Mewtwo's master.

AND CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL

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And correct punctuation is REAL coolness.

And Lucario gets his tail crushed by Mewtwo. Psychic >>>>> Fighting/Steel. Not to mention Mewtwo is an Uber, putting him in an entirely different class altogether. Lucario is just an attempted non-Uber Mewtwo with some alterations to make him new.

But he still has the spirit of a Mewtwo burning inside of him!

You'd have a point if your post wasn't riddled with generalizations. I could take down this retort with ease by replacing Lucario and Mewtwo with two other character names, but it'd be a waste of my time. If being floaty is enough to make him Mewtwo V2, in the face of everything else, a slew of others are as well.

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You want to see my retort to this? Check my thread on Lucario's moveset. I've basically went through every move based compared to Mewtwo's moveset and it's extremely similar.

MookieRah said:

He is clearly based off of Mewtwo. What the heck are you guys even debating here? Seriously, he shares over half of Mewtwo's moves and the ones that aren't the same tend to be incredibly similar and serve mostly the same purpose. The major difference is that Lucario is just WAAAAY better than Mewtwo in almost every aspect.

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FOR THE LAST TIME HE IS NOT A CLONE!!!!!

# 1) MookieRah was half right, he is based off of mewtwo but nothing else, most of his attackes are totally different, one of the only moves that are exactly the same (save aura sphere) is his up-b which in all sense doesnt even matter.

# 2) He doesnt share over half of mewtwos moves, three out of four of his smashes as different, five out of five of his airiels are different, three out of four of his tilts are different, two out of four of his specials are different and even his jab is different

Does that clear anything up

I can't believe this discussion is even going on. Lucario is not a clone, but he is based off M2.

Lucario and Mewtwo have numerous similarities and differences.

First and most obvious of the similarities is their projectile. Mewtwo's shadow ball and Lucario's Aura sphere both charge in a similar method. That is to say that these projectiles do damage while charging and can be charged in mid air as well. When shooting a small form of either projectile, they both wave up and down. When shooting a fully charged one, Mewtwo's waves up and down while Lucario's travels straight at a greater velocity. When shot from ground level at full charge, Mewtwo's would only sometimes hit someone who was hanging on the edge. Lucario's on the other hand, when shot fully charged will hit a person hanging on the edge every single time. I like this very much.

Next will be the forward smash. Both moves have very similar activation time and range. The major difference here is that Lucario's move is significantly easier to land hits with.

The down smash of Lucario can be described as M2's down smash in both directions slightly elevated. The activation time and lag of said moves are identical.

The up smash of the two characters is very similar as well. Both activate with similar speed and stay out for a similar length of time. The difference here is that Lucario's has much heightened killing power.

Lucario and Mewtwo's jab moves share nothing in common.

Lucario and Mewtwo's rolls also share nothing in common. Lucario's is just plain better,

Their spot dodges have identical time for being out and the lag afterwards.

Mewtwo and Lucario's down throws both have different animations, but the two are the exact same move. Both grab the opponent and slam him into the ground, bouncing him up and in perfect range for whatever it is you plan to do next.

Mewtwo and Lucario have extremely similar back throws, which is simply grabbing the opponent and tossing him behind for considerable distance.

Lucario's forward throw I have not seen much of, but it appears to just be his back throw in front of him, a major improvement over Mewtwo's horribly weak (although very cool) forward throw.

Up throw I have to admit I don't recall seeing Lucario perform.

If you have watched the Lucario match against Wario on Wifiwars' Youtube profile (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POUo-905Zuk), you will see Lucario performing an uptilt. You will notice the area of effect and general speed of the move to seem virtually identical to Mewtwo's uptilt.

Lucario's down tilt is much different from Mewtwo's. While Mewtwo's was a tripping type move that set up for combos, Lucario's looks like it is purely for the purpose of knocking the enemy away. Lucario's tilt also has less range than Mewtwo's.

I have not seen enough of Lucario's other tilts to really comment on their similarity or difference to Mewtwo's. However, if they are similar, all the better, because Mewtwo's tilts were incredible in Melee.

Lucario's side B move is focus palm I believe it is called, and is basically a more ranged forward smash with more lag. This is nothing like Mewtwo's side B move, but that is a good thing.

Lucario's down B move is quite similar to Marth's down B, which is counter. This is a good thing, considering Mewtwo's down B move is lackluster at best.

Lucario's up B move is the only move he has that is nerfed compared to Mewtwo's apparently. Mewtwo's up B move went faster, further, and had less lag. Nonetheless, it is how Lucario is and we will have to deal with it.

I have not seen enough of Lucario's neutral air to say much about it. Others have compared it to Marth's, Mewtwo's, and Zelda's neutral air. If it is similar to Marth or Mewtwo's neutral air, that is a good thing.

Lucario's down air is a straight up major major improvement over Mewtwo's. It looks like a combination of Luigi and Falco's down air from Melee, which is a very good thing.

Lucario's forward air appears to be a longer range and less damaging version of Mewtwo's forward air for the most part.

Lucario's back air has a dramatically reduced range compared to Mewtwo's. It seems to have similar power though.

Lucario's up air seems to have slightly less range than Mewtwo's, but it does seem to have greater power by a very noticable margin, a reasonable trade off.


That will be the moves for the most part.

A few more things to note.

Mewtwo and Lucario's aerial movement horizontally and vertically are basically the same. Lucario does seem much harder to kill than Mewtwo, but still seems easier to kill through the roof of a map than other Brawl characters.

Another interesting difference is that Lucario can wall jump while Mewtwo can not. This may or may not prove useful depending on how many stages with walls are played on and how a player can take advantage of the ability. I think in time, people will figure out some pretty nifty tricks with it.

The final thing I will comment on is that although Lucario's up B is not as good as Mewtwo's Lucario does have the ability to stick onto a wall. I have not seen this happen often nor do I know everything about it yet, but it is a very very interesting ability to have. If you do not know what I am talking about, take a look at the video below at about the 7:30 mark. Watch Lucario recover after being knocked off the stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HU_AJbx10Q


All in all, I would speak of Lucario as a much improved and altered Mewtwo. They are too different to be called clones, but similar enough to say that Mewtwo was a base for Lucario. The same can be said about Fox and Wolf.

I think if you took Mewtwo, then made a luigi-fied clone, THEN made a Wolf-kinda clone from that, you'd get Lucario. (Just if you don't know, Wolf has similiar Special moves as Fox, although they have different effects,animations, and attack angles. He also has many different melee attacks...)

But yeah, just an opinion from someone who has looked a lot into Lucario recently and played a bit of Mewtwo in Melee....

Colaya said:

I think if you took Mewtwo, then made a luigi-fied clone, THEN made a Wolf-kinda clone from that, you'd get Lucario. (Just if you don't know, Fox has similar special moves to Wolf although they have different effects,animations, and attack angles. He also has many different melee attacks...)

But yeah, just an opinion from someone who has looked a lot into Lucario recently and played a bit of Mewtwo in Melee....

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I fixed your post, my corrections is in bold.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141989

Sariku.Uchiha said:

I fixed your post, my corrections are in bold.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=141989

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I fixed YOUR post. Corrections are underlined and bolded.

Oh, but I agree with you.

Lucario is the neji of pokemon

he is definitely mewtwo's successor if they make another smash and they make another "mysterious yet misunderstood" pokemon he will probably replace lucario.

Lucario isn't based off of anyone. Lucario's completely original. They share some similar moves, so what? So do Lucario and Xatu. I guess Lucario is based off of Xatu?

Da N said:

FOR THE LAST TIME HE IS NOT A CLONE!!!!!

# 1) MookieRah was half right, he is based off of mewtwo but nothing else, most of his attackes are totally different, one of the only moves that are exactly the same (save aura sphere) is his up-b which in all sense doesnt even matter.

# 2) He doesnt share over half of mewtwos moves, three out of four of his smashes as different, five out of five of his airiels are different, three out of four of his tilts are different, two out of four of his specials are different and even his jab is different

Does that clear anything up

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Honestly, it's not even worth trying to start a debate with these folks. It's like arguing with individuals who see the virgin mary, or jesus or the devil in some random object. It's people seeing whatever they want to see, despite the reality of the manner.

If these folks WERE right, then Ike is nothing but Roy "luigi-fied" (please use the proper word), as is Lucas, Falco and Wolf. Of course, all those other characters since been found out to play completely differently from the charaters they're supposedly based on, with different priorities, ranges, animations, power, speed, etc..

Thus far, I only see this faction holding on this fiercely when the truth is staring them in the face.

I, for one, am glad they are not the same. I found Mewtwo too slow to use.

I, for one, am glad they are not the same. I found Mewtwo too slow to use.

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Really now? I didn't find his speed to be a problem at all. Actually, Lucario isn't really any faster than Mewtwo either. The problem with Mewtwo is that he was so friggin huge, his tail was a hitbox, and he was super light and easy to kill.

Lucario isn't based off of anyone. Lucario's completely original. They share some similar moves, so what? So do Lucario and Xatu. I guess Lucario is based off of Xatu?

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I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you are so up your own *** with Lucario fanboyishness to spot how obviously similar the two characters movesets are.

Meh, Lucario isn't technically based off Mewtwo anymore than Mewtwo is based off fighting anime. Both Lucario and Mewtwo project abilities seen before in shows such as Dragonball Z(even perform the same 'kamehameha' pose when charging their energy). From Mewtwo's forward-throw to Lucario's Final Smash, Mewtwo is essentially Freiza in Pokemon form, and Lucario, like a saiyan, gets stronger after taking damage.

The character Lucario was not made with Mewtwo in mind, necessarily, though they do share a sort of polar opposition, as Lucario's psychic abilities are natural whereas Mewtwo's are artificial, Lucario uses martial arts and Mewtwo uses mental strikes, etc.

However, as far as the game of Smash is concerned, it cannot be denied that Mewtwo's moveset was taken into consideration when Lucario was made. They have essentially the same standard and up b's, after all, as well as some standard attacks. However the similarities are not much, it's only true that Mewtwo was thought of when they were making Lucario for Smash.

Still I would have loved to have both in the game. They're such compatible rivals.

Yeah, that too. >.< Hopefully I have better luck with Lucario. He seems to have some pretty awesome abilities.

MookieRah said:

I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you are so up your own *** with Lucario fanboyishness to spot how obviously similar the two characters movesets are.

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No, it's actually not.

Also, there are a lot of 4th gen moves. If anything, Mewtwo's 4th gen moveset is based off of Lucario's. Aura Sphere is Lucario's signature move, then they go ahead and give it to Mewtwo.

And here I was hoping to have at least a semi-intelligent Lucario community. I guess it can't be helped.

MookieRah said:

I hope this is sarcasm. If not, you are so up your own *** with Lucario fanboyishness to spot how obviously similar the two characters movesets are.

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I think it goes like this. . .

Either the person really hates Melee Mew2 and really likes Lucario resulting in them not wanting to even think the 2 are alike for some reason or being based on a old/ cut character is some kind of unspoken tabuu around these parts.

Either way, I don't understand the backlash toward those who say this. Fact remains that no cut character was completely cut. Pika ate Pichu's speed and got a power boost (plays like a cross between them I hear), Mario got stronger and so on

Also, there are a lot of 4th gen moves. If anything, Mewtwo's 4th gen moveset is based off of Lucario's. Aura Sphere is Lucario's signature move, then they go ahead and give it to Mewtwo.

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Mewtwo had shadowball... Also, Togekiss also learns Aura Sphere. It's not like it was so special with Lucario.

Also, if they weren't trying to make him similar to Mewtwo, why the hell does his aura sphere's follow a wave pattern like shadow ball when they aren't fully charged?

Seriously guy, Dguy outlined EVERYTHING and you are just making silly references to Pokemon that are arbitrary considering Lucario's moveset as a whole.

This is all pointless though. You fanboys can believe what you want, but anyone who has a brain realizes that Lucario in Brawl was indeed based of Mewtwo in Melee.

MookieRah said:

Mewtwo had shadowball... Also, Togekiss also learns Aura Sphere. It's not like it was so special with Lucario.

Also, if they weren't trying to make him similar to Mewtwo, why the hell does his aura sphere's follow a wave pattern like shadow ball when they aren't fully charged?

Seriously guy, Dguy outlined EVERYTHING and you are just making silly references to Pokemon that are arbitrary considering Lucario's moveset as a whole.

This is all pointless though. You fanboys can believe what you want, but anyone who has a brain realizes that Lucario in Brawl was indeed based of Mewtwo in Melee.

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And? Xatu has Shadow Ball too. So do a lot of ghost-types as well. Your point?

And if we're talking strictly about SSBB, then they have a couple moves that are similar. Big whoop. Lucario =/= Mewtwo

And yes, I am a Lucario fanboy. Don't need to point it out to me. =)

You guys are missing the big picture Lucario was based off of Mewtwo but his moves were morfed to befit him. If anyhting, when he has a move that is an exact clone of one of Mew2, they change it even then.

Take aura sphere for example: when fully charged it doesnt wave or does he get slingshoted as much
And then his up-b: he doesnt dissapear

These changes may be small and really, in all sense, doesnt matter but the fact is that he doesnt have a move that is an exact replica of mew2s

PyrasTerran said:

Meh, Lucario isn't technically based off Mewtwo anymore than Mewtwo is based off fighting anime. Both Lucario and Mewtwo project abilities seen before in shows such as Dragonball Z(even perform the same 'kamehameha' pose when charging their energy). From Mewtwo's forward-throw to Lucario's Final Smash, Mewtwo is essentially Freiza in Pokemon form, and Lucario, like a saiyan, gets stronger after taking damage.

The character Lucario was not made with Mewtwo in mind, necessarily, though they do share a sort of polar opposition, as Lucario's psychic abilities are natural whereas Mewtwo's are artificial, Lucario uses martial arts and Mewtwo uses mental strikes, etc.

However, as far as the game of Smash is concerned, it cannot be denied that Mewtwo's moveset was taken into consideration when Lucario was made. They have essentially the same standard and up b's, after all, as well as some standard attacks. However the similarities are not much, it's only true that Mewtwo was thought of when they were making Lucario for Smash.

Still I would have loved to have both in the game. They're such compatible rivals.

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Yeah, that's what I believe. Lucario was not designed with Mewtwo in mind at all.