ZeRo's thoughts on MK high tier (video)

[Gemba Board]

Alright so after this Leo vs mr R stir up, everyone's been either jumping to MK or saying he's high tier now. ZeRo just released a new video going over his thoughts on MK and his position in the tier list. I'm more interested in what you guys think. Personally, I don't think MK is a solid shiek counterpick, I think they're barely 5:5. Also, I think mr R wasn't playing the matchup correctly on top of choking at key moments. Leo outplayed him, regardless of characters.

So what are your thoughts? High tier or nah?

 

[Amadeus9]

I think MK as he is, is a top 15 character, and I also think his meta has a lot of room to grow. With patches and play improvement I could see him being top 10 in time.

 

[Jamurai]

I think ZeRo worded his point about the MK-Sheik matchup poorly, he said that MK can be a good pick against Sheik. I hope people don't take that as "MK beats Sheik". I hope people take it sensibly as in "relative to other characters MK is fairly good against Sheik". But you never know

He's definitely high tier but not tip-top

 

[Wintermelon43]

He's high tier obvisualy top15-16

Although I'm kinda scared he'll end up in 1st in his own tier with how people are acting him out as.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think MK as he is, is a top 15 character, and I also think his meta has a lot of room to grow. With patches and play improvement I could see him being top 10 in time.

I think ZeRo worded his point about the MK-Sheik matchup poorly, he said that MK can be a good pick against Sheik. I hope people don't take that as "MK beats Sheik". I hope people take it sensibly as in "relative to other characters MK is fairly good against Sheik". But you never know

He's definitely high tier but not tip-top

Hallelujah.

This is only news to ignorant players outside these boards, this vid didn't phase us(other than us losing our free buffs *sniff*)

 

[Bullys]

I've mentioned it a few times in places; there is a tendency for people to have written Metaknight off because rather than comparing him to his actual relative place in the metagame, they compare him to his former self in Brawl and that metagam OR they take a somewhat typical stance, in which when a character receives a significant nerf (especially from an OP status) be it via patch or transition between games, they write the character off.

 

[Katakiri]

I personally think MK is about the 7th best character in the game following and followed by

We used to compared MK to Falcon but as our meta evolved, MK much more closely resembles ZSS. They dance around you throwing out dangerous harassment moves before striking and striking HARD. And before you say it, please tell me how much paralyzer changes her MUs (lie to me); they are very, very similar. MK counters Rosalina, has a notable advantage against Ness & Fox, and goes about even with Sheik, Mario, & Luigi. Those are all massive to his overall viability. His worst MUs are ZSS & Yoshi but those are more than manageable and we're definitely figuring out how to handle the ZSS MU better and Yoshi is a rarity to begin with. Any other notable characters Charizard isn't really notable Kappa that used to be bad MUs got nerfed by patches so MK is in a super-solid position right now where he has the potential to come out on top in almost any MU depending on player skill; MK doesn't hold you back. He's a lot like Brawl Marth in that regard, he will take you as far as you deserve to go. When you lose as MK, you didn't get hit by a terrible MU, you got out-played.

And if anyone has a problem with me putting Diddy below MK, understand there's a difference between ZeRo & Diddy. I know they both wear the same shirt and make faces at the camera but there is difference. There's a HUGE gap between ANY other Diddy & ZeRo. When Diddy starts getting results again outside of the one player, the best Smash 4 player in world, I'll reconsider.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think we might maybe sorta lose to Fox(?), we bust Mario's arse man like we can't call that **** even. Zard ain't doing jack diddly squat(come at me ).

Basically he has no bad MUs where you're forced to pick up a secondary, if your MK ain't good enough or you're not confident get a secondary tho. The only -2 MU is potentially ZSS but we have yet to even sit down and talk about this MU especially after the Mr R thing: a pocket MK pulled out his backside vs best ZSS user).

We got MKs rooted in the US, Mexico and Japan(Salena hype). No one scares us in defaults, the hype of this vid will die down and we'll go back into the darkness as usual. Then we do something cool again and the cycle continues.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

We have an interesting dynamic here to say the very least.

 

[Gemba Board]

I feel like our matchup against sheik is clouding the judgements of non-MK mains, though. Any matchup better than 4:6 against sheik is a godsend it seems.

Interesting thought @ Katakiri but I think if the MK MU against ZSS were slightly better, 7th would seem more reasonable. As it is, I'd say he's somewhere between fox and sonic; though, we could see top 10 easily as the meta sorts though 1.1.0. I agree with your comparison of MK to ZSS. They even share the same vertical kill conditions lol.

 

[Untamed]

MK has the potential to be a high tier character. The problem that he has right now is that people think he's bad, simply because he isn't as good as he was in brawl. With some more exploration and exposure, in addition to potential buffs in the future, I would not be surprised if he was up there. As for being a sheik counter... ehhh it's controversial. I think it's mostly that people like ZeRo isn't really experienced with the MU.

 

[Bullys]

MK has the potential to be a high tier character. The problem that he has right now is that people think he's bad, simply because he isn't as good as he was in brawl. With some more exploration and exposure, in addition to potential buffs in the future, I would not be surprised if he was up there. As for being a sheik counter... ehhh it's controversial. I think it's mostly that people like ZeRo isn't really experienced with the MU.

Yeah I mentioned much the same sentiment.

Another point I've touched upon, and spoken on in (not just in Smash, but in different games I've played competitively) is that when high level players (or minds*) settle on things, especially early in the game, it leaves a lot to be explored. That can leave you in a position where "obvious" picks are explored, but potential is left as potential. Its interesting you here things with say Yoshi, he is constantly put as a higher tier, but also many talk about his lack of appearances when it matters. Essentially no one (or very few) are developing him.

* re: minds - people love to theory craft and it has a huge impact. Ultimately it does need to be put into practice and drilled - but there are games where theory is more/less powerful than others.

** Also, there are people developing characters and meta, but I am sure we can all agree that there is a difference between ZeRo, Dabuz, Esam or Nairo (and others in this caliber of player), than others. Its also important to note that their competition is likely to expose weakness far more.

I actually feel like the "pack" in Smash 4 is a lot more tightly knit than its given credit for, we are constantly seeing characters shooting up and down the tier lists (maybe not to high tier), not just with patches (though that does something to do with it) but as attention and light is shone onto characters and players. Early on, metagames are obviously less defined.

Another though, and this is really me from an outsiders perspective, is right now success in this game has been defined by those that had success previously, people transfering their knowledge from Brawl. In about a year, there "should" be a new breed in the top level players that are completely new to Smash (especially given how much new blood was injected into the scene with Wii U, and like any game, someone will come up and be competitive).

 

[Jamurai]

MK has the potential to be a high tier character. The problem that he has right now is that people think he's bad, simply because he isn't as good as he was in brawl. With some more exploration and exposure, in addition to potential buffs in the future, I would not be surprised if he was up there. As for being a sheik counter... ehhh it's controversial. I think it's mostly that people like ZeRo isn't really experienced with the MU.

MK is definitely high tier already, and I don't think people think he is bad anymore. Leo won a national and beat Mr R, and the best player in the game and a major content creator (ZeRo) has stated that he thinks he is top tier. Also, the Reddit tier list, although something which is usually not taken seriously, is a good indicator of what the general community thinks, even if they don't know much of what they're on about sometimes. And the latest one put MK at the top of B tier, higher than he's ever been on it, above the likes of Olimar, ROB and Peach. Now that people are publicly talking about how good MK is, it's unlikely he'll be buffed again I think.

MK is definitely not a Sheik counter; it's due to Chinese whispers "MK isn't bad against Sheik" > "MK does relatively well against Sheik compared to others" > "MK does well against Sheik" > "MK counters Sheik?!?!". Sheik wins (like she does in like every matchup) if she plays it correctly. It's only debated at all because people like to hype up stuff without checking if it's right first.

 

[Mr-L]

I really dont think hes as amazing as people are saying as of now... this is only recent everybody considered him as trash before Leo vs Mr. R. It very possibly could be because Leo is just a good player. Meta knight is definetly not in the same leauge as a character like sheik or rosalina or even ness. He has lots of problems killing. In the video zero States that his foward smash kills early. Is that even a thing? Like everybodys foward smash kills (besides sheik) and meta knights f-smash is actually pretty slow.hes only real kill set ups are into his up-b and a bair of the side of the stage at 115ish% But I personally think hes around top of midteir or the lowest in high tier.

 

[warionumbah2]

He has problems killing

Why are you here?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I really dont think hes as amazing as people are saying as of now... this is only recent everybody considered him as trash before Leo vs Mr. R. It very possibly could be because Leo is just a good player. Meta knight is definetly not in the same leauge as a character like sheik or rosalina or even ness. He has lots of problems killing. In the video zero States that his foward smash kills early. Is that even a thing? Like everybodys foward smash kills (besides sheik) and meta knights f-smash is actually pretty slow.hes only real kill set ups are into his up-b and a bair of the side of the stage at 115ish% But I personally think hes around top of midteir or the lowest in high tier.

Meta Knight has a few big flaws such as a linear approach/neutral game, below average range, poor air speed, lightweight/fast faller combo and a lack of a reliable aerial spacing tool.

But killing? No. We're pretty awesome at that.

An experienced Meta Knight should be able to find himself landing Up Air chains to Shuttle Loop without too many hitches; there are a good amount of opportunities for them. Outside of the percents where we can rely on Down/Forward-Throw to Shuttle Loop, Up-Air acts as a hit confirm for a Shuttle Loop kill. We have superb edgeguarding abilities and Bair is quite strong. Nair is also a solid kill option off stage. Tippered back hit of Down Smash and Dimensional Cape gets stocks sometimes. Forward Smash is stupid strong and its slow startup/animation is useful for exposing the **** out of spotdodges and other bad habits.

If you hit our shield with anything dumb at kill percents, Shuttle Loop out of shield will be claiming stocks.

Punishing and killing are two of our best attributes hands down.

 

[Amadeus9]

ROFL this character has the best kill setups in the game. Check yourself.

 

[Gemba Board]

ROFL this character has the best kill setups in the game. Check yourself.

I think he might be referring to MK's kill options on neutral. If that's the case, yeah it's hard to secure a kill. But any MK player worth his salt isn't going to kill unless it's to punish unsafe commitments or if it's confirmed by one of MK's plentiful setups.

Anyway, I wanted to explore sheik's recent changes and what it's doing to our standings on a tier list. It makes us better, but how much better and why? Also, doesn't it make every other character between MK and sheik better as well? Do we benefit more from these changes than, say, ZSS? I'm curious to see where we land. Katakiri's 7th position sounds very promising but with our recent cosmetic buffs, it's hard to ladder beyond characters with actual buffs.

 

[Mr-L]

ROFL this character has the best kill setups in the game. Check yourself.

He has problems killing

Why are you here?

I'm sorry to upset you both. But 1 set up doesn't count as "best kill set ups in the game" he has up air into shuttle loop. That's it. And yes it is good. But I was meaning for those situations where you are behind a stock and they are out of up air shuttle loop range because too high percent. The only way you'll kill them then is the up throw or something or a well placed bair. So I ment more in the neutral.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You can still uair to bair, jab lock with dtilt, use the first two hits of bair if your having trouble jab locking. Ledge guard with his five jumps, shuttle loop on the ground. Doesn't one uair to SL work at the 100%'s? He has many options to take off a stock besides uair/SL combo and read into fsmash.

 

[Jamurai]

I'm sorry to upset you both. But 1 set up doesn't count as "best kill set ups in the game" he has up air into shuttle loop. That's it. And yes it is good. But I was meaning for those situations where you are behind a stock and they are out of up air shuttle loop range because too high percent. The only way you'll kill them then is the up throw or something or a well placed bair. So I ment more in the neutral.

Why are you trying to convince the MK boards that we are actually all wrong about our character

• Uair to Up-B at a huge range of %s
• Grounded Up-B (including OOS)
• Dtilt to Up-B
• Ftilt 1/2 to Up-B
• DA or Fthrow/Dthrow to Up-B
• Fsmash
• Back hit of Dsmash
• Usmash
• Bair
• DCape
• Uthrow, Bthrow, Nair and tornado at very high %s or with rage

I haven't even mentioned edgeguarding

 

[warionumbah2]

I suggest you revise on everything about MK before doing this. I don't see the point in discussing with you since your knowledge on MK is lower than mine(and everyone elses) therefore i/we won't learn anything.

This has nothing to do with the set btw, if its Leo drop it. This is getting old.

-snip-

Most of them aren't set ups, just raw kill moves. Here's the setups.

• Dtilt to Cape/Shuttle loop
• Uair to Shuttle loop
• Dash attack to Shuttle loop
• Ftilt 1 to Grounded Shuttle loop
• Down throw to Shuttle loop(poor DI)
• Forward throw to Shuttle loop
• Up throw to Shuttle loop(if they DI in)

Of all kirby characters i find it funny that MK is commonly known for struggling to kill, he's got tools for very percent range. Yes including low percents certain characters get obliterated due to their physics(not naming) which skewers the MU drastically.

I'm not too bothered about MK having the best kill setups, so long as they're functional and strong idc.

 

[TurboLink]

I suggest you revise on everything about MK before doing this. I don't see the point in discussing with you since your knowledge on MK is lower than mine(and everyone elses) therefore i/we won't learn anything.

This has nothing to do with the set btw, if its Leo drop it. This is getting old.


Most of them aren't set ups, just raw kill moves. Here's the setups.

• Dtilt to Cape/Shuttle loop
• Uair to Shuttle loop
• Dash attack to Shuttle loop
• Ftilt 1 to Grounded Shuttle loop
• Down throw to Shuttle loop(poor DI)
• Forward throw to Shuttle loop
• Up throw to Shuttle loop(if they DI in)

Of all kirby characters i find it funny that MK is commonly known for struggling to kill, he's got tools for very percent range. Yes including low percents certain characters get obliterated due to their physics(not naming) which skewers the MU drastically.

I'm not too bothered about MK having the best kill setups, so long as they're functional and strong idc.

Ftilt 1 to Grounded Shuttle loop? Isn't he able to do that because his forward tilt has IASA frames? Is it inescapable?

And what is Dtilt to Cape/Shuttle loop?

 

[Jamurai]

Ftilt 1 to Grounded Shuttle loop? Isn't he able to do that because his forward tilt has IASA frames? Is it inescapable?

And what is Dtilt to Cape/Shuttle loop?

It's escapable but only by jumping with a buffered airdodge (I believe). Usually unexpected and hard to react to tho.

Dtilt at high %s pops them up and forces them to tech or be knocked down, if they tech in place or fail the tech then it's a free Up-B or DCape.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

As long as you aren't using D-Tilt liberally, it gets pretty hard to react to the forced tech situation of a move that comes out on Frame 3.

 

[Gemba Board]

Ftilt 1 to Grounded Shuttle loop? Isn't he able to do that because his forward tilt has IASA frames? Is it inescapable?

And what is Dtilt to Cape/Shuttle loop?

http://smashboards.com/threads/meta-knights-down-tilt-tactics.400348/

Dtilt expands our kill setups at about 107%+ on most characters.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I mean, it definitely is more awkward to kill with Meta Knight past a certain percentage point, kind of like Melee Marth and Marth syndrome. It's much more obvious when someone who isn't very familiar with the character like Mr. L is playing him (Smash Con, he played MK against someone's Sheik on Halberd, he has the Sheik on high percents but the ez-combos stop working and you can see him struggling to clinch the kill without going full YOLO). But to be fair, killing is pretty awkward for most of the cast, there are very few characters who can KO as easily as a Melee character (Ness with backthrow, Mewtwo with throws and near-instant usmash, Ganondorf if he can land any attack lol, etc.).