Zero was wrong

[Booster]

I remember when Zero put Little Mac at bottom tier. Read here http://smashboards.com/threads/initial-super-smash-wii-u-tier-list-by-ct-zero.358376/

But he could not have possibly been more wrong. I'm not trashing his opinion and neither should you guys, but Little Mac is looking to be the strongest character in the game, he is hard to hit, fast and insanely strong, which is great because he and his series are finally getting SOME recognition.

Not to mention he has a move capable of OHKO'ing any character in one hit if it connects. I don't think Zero could've been more wrong, I'm curious as to what he thinks about Little Mac now?

Discuss.

 

[Blade Knight]

The KO Punch isn't an instant KO at all percents. He can't KO anybody in one hit at zero percent. He gets gimped too easy, grabs beat him universally, and his recovery is still a major issue.

Mac is immensely powerful but Zero was right, if you mess up even just one time that could be it. He does win some matchups in very convincing style but he loses just as many in an equally embarassing one. It's too early to be saying any character will be best or worst, but Mac certainly won't dominate this game to the extreme that some people think I'm sure.

 

[guedes the brawler]

the problem with mac is the "glass" of his glass cannon.

literally one mistake can kill you, and it can kill you more badly than Roy. that's saying something

 

[Booster]

The KO Punch isn't an instant KO at all percents. He can't KO anybody in one hit at zero percent. He gets gimped too easy, grabs beat him universally, and his recovery is still a major issue.

Mac is immensely powerful but Zero was right, if you mess up even just one time that could be it. He does win some matchups in very convincing style but he loses just as many in an equally embarassing one. It's too early to be saying any character will be best or worst, but Mac certainly won't dominate this game to the extreme that some people think I'm sure.

the problem with mac is the "glass" of his glass cannon.

literally one mistake can kill you, and it can kill you more badly than Roy. that's saying something

I know this, I've seen the Side B memes but his power is immense (Except in the air and against bosses)

 

[PolarPanda]

I know this, I've seen the Side B memes but his power is immense (Except in the air and against bosses)

Characters with long range grabs like ZSS wreck Mac.

 

[Bunansa]

I'd say Little Mac is BARELY high tier. If thats even saying much anymore since the tiers are so weighted in the higher end anyways. But as Blade Knight said, grab heavy characters, decent ranged game, and working against Macs playstyle (AKA Just wait HIM out) Mac is very easily destroyed in just as laughable loses as his spectacularly explosive wins.

He's a glass cannon that either does EXCEPTIONALLY WELL or EXCEPTIONALLY POOR. Its quite demoralizing as a Little Mac main-er. I can win 25+ For Glory matches in a row, than meet someone that wields 4-5 characters like Surgery against Little Mac's key weaknesses.

ZSS, DDD, PSS, Ness, Sheik, Peach, RosaLuma... just to name a few.

 

[Ganreizu]

Little mac strongest character? No ****...

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

Little Mac is awful in the air and has horrible recovery. That's the price he pays for being OP on the ground.

 

[Negoksai]

Anyone who dares question little mac is top tier take me on. Most of the above claims are false, Little Macs jab cancels most if not all close range grabs. He can easily sidestep ZSS grab and punish hard. Maybe Mac can't make a mistake while recovering but his sheer speed allows him to be less punishable then most of the cast, sure I agree that if you make a major mistake SOME characters can take you down hard in SOME cases. Little Mac is not a glass cannon, it takes a lot to kill him. I'm not saying his OP and he certainly is not the best, heck he's not even top tier but he's atleast high tier. I'm too lazy to argue if you disagree please just battle me message me if you want to...

 

[Dirgimzib]

Uhh, I'm pretty sure there were balance changes during the development between the E3 tournament and release. I know Zero has said that ZSS got nerfed quite a bit since E3, so we can assume most others got changed around.

Not to mention, most people have only been exposed to Little Mac in 1v1 For Glory. The maps that will generally be used in a tournament setting are going to have platforms and whatnot. The further away you get from a perfectly flat stage, the worse Little Mac gets.

I would argue he'll probably end up in mid tier, if that.

 

[simpleglitch]

He will likely be high tier, but I question whether he will be top tier. Aside from the point about making a mistake, another factor to keep in mind is that at tournament, not all matchs will be at FD. Mac's game takes a huge hit once platforms are involved.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I put him at mid because the stage list will make or break how viable he actually is. The fact that he can go from 0 to death if the other guy powershields him is a little bit too rough for him to be high tier imo.

 

[Negoksai]

One last thing, ZeRo is not some legendary player who can determine tier placement with a few hours of play. He was asked for his impressions so he gave them ofcource he'll be very wrong on a couple, it takes time to develope the metagame. Just like how M2K was stating his impressions from 5 hours of play and when people made a tier list he got mad (defensive.)

 

[Negoksai]

Uhh, I'm pretty sure there were balance changes during the development between the E3 tournament and release. I know Zero has said that ZSS got nerfed quite a bit since E3, so we can assume most others got changed around.

Not to mention, most people have only been exposed to Little Mac in 1v1 For Glory. The maps that will generally be used in a tournament setting are going to have platforms and whatnot. The further away you get from a perfectly flat stage, the worse Little Mac gets.

I would argue he'll probably end up in mid tier, if that.

There are very few stages that will be allowed in supersmash bros 3ds withplatforms and at Arena ferox you can run away until it changes maye kn the wii u version he'll drop to mid butbnow hes high tier.

 

[Yeezy]

I have a friend that is the best Little Mac I have come across by leaps and bounds and after getting my ass whooped the first 10 times I can beat his Mac very consistently with almost every character on the list because he is sort of a one-trick pony and when you figure him out you can play the matchup smartly and wreck Mac. He is so weak to gimps it's insane, just throw him off the stage and either you bait a counter or you straight up kill him. I'm thinking Little Mac won't see hardly any competitive play because all the top end players can play the matchup.

 

[Negoksai]

Yeezy battle me, I'll show you how tge top competitors will play Mac.

 

[ChampKing]

Why do Mac threads always have the most ignorant replies? Anyway it was early impressions and the game has changed since then so no need to take them seriously. He was obviously wrong, his attacks are very safe when spaced properly, his footsies are the best in the game and he needs very few strikes to kill. Most of his "bad" matchups are solved quite easily with good spacing and utilisation of super armor. Also him becoming terrible on platformed stages is wrong as well
You can tell that most people have no experience with Mac outside of For Glory bads.

 

[simpleglitch]

Most of his "bad" matchups are solved quite easily with good spacing and utilisation of super armor.

A Bad match-up means that one character has an inherant disadvantage against another character or on a particular stage. What your describing is here is out-playing the opponent, which has more to do with the players ability to get good reads on their opponent and/or play a better mind game which has little to do with the particular character/stage match-up.

Also him becoming terrible on platformed stages is wrong as well

He is at a disadvantage on a platformed stage. Mac doesn't have very high jumps and has a slow air speed, making his arial mobility limited. This impacts his ability to apply pressure, properly space, and escape from danger.

Not only that, but his specials also take a significant penalty in the air. The distances of his Up-B and Side-B is greatly reduced and Side-B loses invincibility frames when done in the air (not to mention both put Mac in the helpless state). Neutral-B (without the knock-out gauge filled) doesn't have a lot of application in the air, counter is the only one that I don't know if it effected or not.

Finally, he doesn't have the greatest normal attacks in the air. They have small hitboxes, a bit of start-up, and low knockback.

Stages like battlefield may limit his ability to chase down opponents. Stages with change/moving platforms (like Prism Tower) make it easy to put Mac in a bad spot.

Reset Bomb forest (second form) makes most of the stage a bad spot for him (small solid platforms, many breakable platforms).

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

I'm going to quote something i've said before on a different thread


Ok, here's my personal problem with the whole Grab him, "throw him off stage and Gimp him" strategy/ mentality people are casually throwing out there.
Its stupid
That's all there is too it. If you go up against any decent (<-- note) or any REALLY good Mac's they are not going to go anywhere NEAR the edge of the stage. They aren't going to approach you unless they are trying to be stylish or trying to pull a maximum disrespect near with nairs (which is kind of a stupid thing to do in the first place).

Also with what @Conda said before, since Mac has zero ground weaknesses (when played right of course), combined with his super armor with his smash attacks and tilts that REALLY powerful, he can be a NIGHTMARE to play against. Also if he IS in the air... Counter, air dodge and fastfall

Also if you spam rolls against Little Mac, Down Smash says hi
Spamming Air dodges against Mac? Landing Lag, tilts and smash attacks say hi

So like Conda said: "Back to square one."

Also from @Colin Steele "For those of you making the argument that you can just grab him, throw him off, and then gimp him to death, I want to see footage of you doing this consistently.
So much yes XD

 

[Kiyosuki]

His jab game alone guarantees he's not going to be bottom. Controlled Macs have this like force field of punches in front of them with whats probably one of the fastest ground dashes in the game. The 1% of actual good Little Macs online will be using that more than dash attack or the big flashy punches the flowchart scrubs throw all over the place. The difference it makes is infuriating to say the least with certain characters, and makes "throw him off" a easier said than done.

He has some very clear bad matchups obviously but he's definitely not gonna be bottom. I think even ZeRo changed his mind about that at some point.

Nothing's set in stone even for ZeRo at this point in time, except for maybe Rosalina probably defining a lot of the upper tier matchups.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Yeah, little mac is definitely op in FG because if the stage it supports all of his strengths. The problem that I have with people who try to argue another wise is they apply all of their logic to the worst type of player assuming that if they picked mac then they'll do a dash attack and get shield grabbed then gimp, not all players are dumb like and you need to asked yourself if you were little mac would you run to the ledge and do a dash attack? Even knowing the opponent wants you to do that?

I'm not saying he's broken by any means but when I think of meta knight in brawl he didn't become broken until really good players new how to abuse all of his strengths, I remember when people started say meta knight was broken and some people would deny it by saying "he's not because I beat every meta knight I see online" knowing that they haven't played a high level player at all

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Yeah, little mac is definitely op in FG because if the stage it supports all of his strengths. The problem that I have with people who try to argue another wise is they apply all of their logic to the worst type of player assuming that if they picked mac then they'll do a dash attack and get shield grabbed then gimp, not all players are dumb like and you need to asked yourself if you were little mac would you run to the ledge and do a dash attack? Even knowing the opponent wants you to do that?

I'm not saying he's broken by any means but when I think of meta knight in brawl he didn't become broken until really good players new how to abuse all of his strengths, I remember when people started say meta knight was broken and some people would deny it by saying "he's not because I beat every meta knight I see online" knowing that they haven't played a high level player at all

His jab game alone guarantees he's not going to be bottom. Controlled Macs have this like force field of punches in front of them with whats probably one of the fastest ground dashes in the game. The 1% of actual good Little Macs online will be using that more than dash attack or the big flashy punches the flowchart scrubs throw all over the place. The difference it makes is infuriating to say the least with certain characters, and makes "throw him off" a easier said than done.

He has some very clear bad matchups obviously but he's definitely not gonna be bottom. I think even ZeRo changed his mind about that at some point.

Nothing's set in stone even for ZeRo at this point in time, except for maybe Rosalina probably defining a lot of the upper tier matchups.

Yes. Sooooo much yes to both of these

 

[Minordeth]

A good Ganon still bodies me. The choke yomi that they can throw out is pretty effective.

 

[KingTeo]

Best ground game and worst air game? only makes sense that he's middle tier.

511

 

[Bunansa]

His aeriel game is not terrible, its just a one hit kind of scenario. You aren't going to be able to multi-hit aeriel someone, but a well position or well ranged side/up b does a lot of damage for how far of a knock back it has. Just make sure you're accurate, because SD's and Whiff punishing ABOUND