Zero Defensive

[7thFonon]

Stopped on research (or at least posting) since there wasn't much interest.

 

[NeoZero]

Here's my take on your playing.

I'm not saying that what your suggesting is in any way bad, but the real problem I see with it is this one:
By changing your c-stick to Kougeki / Attack, your hampering your Down Smash chains and your Running Up-smashes, which are, IMHO, some very useful parts of any Zamus' game. Mind you, unlike you, I don't really have much of a problem d-tilting out of a shield. If that works for you, go for it.

I'm also not too sure about letting the opponent get too close to you. I find your limiting your options by being completely dependent on your shield. I'm not saying that shielding is a bad thing, it's a GOOD thing. I just prefer to not let the other guy actually take a shot at me by keeping him by throwing out a few side Bs to hemper their approach.

Again, this is only my take and shouldn't be taken personally. If I offended you in any way, I apoligize in advanced.

 

[7thFonon]

Oh no, none taken at all =) , I want comments. I want to know other Zero Suit Mainers' views on play style.

Also for the running up Smashes, you are able to do Quarter Circle + A (forward to up) and it will do the same thing as a running C-Stick up smash. You can also do Down Smashes as well, it will require timing though. As soon as the electricity from Zero's gun disappears, use down Smash again, using it any early will result in the move not registering.

My problem isn't really getting down tilts out of shield. Rather, the C-Stick set to Kougeki, it allows you to quickly do "turn-around" down tilts and it makes punishing out of shield a split second faster. To me, this is very important as if you can master the timing, you can punish a moves on block with 100% success rate and your opponent can do nothing about it as their attack recovery will not allow them to put their shield up in time.

But I can definitely see why you wouldn't want to be close to the enemy as Zero has a high short hop and slow grab, so it can feel better getting some distance. However, with this method, forward B is used as a spacing tool. That leaves you with 2 concrete kill moves and that's if you don't use them until the finishing blow. Using Zero's close up moves will leave her less predictable and you will refresh your attack cool-down much faster.

 

[fkacyan]

Not spacing with sideB?

Where are your tourney results? I'd like to see the correlation.

 

[NeoZero]

Yay, you don't hate me for saying my two cents worth

KOUGEKI STICK

I thought of my control scheme for C-stick and thought that if I changed the control setting to Kougeki / Attack, I would have an easier time executing down tilts out of shield.

That's where I got the impression you had trouble down tilting out of your shield. I also forgot to mention this stuff earlier:

As for turning around when you shield so you can retaliate, the only time I find it would be really useful is if I whiffed a bair on a grounded opponent, at which point I usually spotdodge and/or roll away if I can help putting out my shield. The other time would be if my opponent rolls behind me, which I usually try to punish with an up tilt (if he's right beside me) or, again, spotdodge and/or roll away. I find these to be better options then shielding. Of course, I could be completely wrong and be giving you something completely noobish. I just hope it's not the latter

I know you can also do the down smash chain without the c-stick, I just find it easier and that it gives me less room for error. Same with the running up-smash.

 

[Orichalcum]

I like the whole idea but i wouldnt drop the >B spacing you shouldnt drop it just for your downtilts, also the way you play i guess you get grabbed alot. Im gonna try out that k stick

Well that would be my suggestion to you

 

[DeliciousCake]

Whatever works for you. I'll stick with my C-stick.

Hehe I made a pun.

 

[7thFonon]

Not spacing with sideB?

Where are your tourney results? I'd like to see the correlation.

Tourney results? Eh, this was my last tourney... http://www.allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=1424

But really, you should be more open minded. I've tried some things that were suggestions from other players (that I believe) I am better than, but I NEVER disregaurd what they say without testing or trying it out first. Sure, a lot of them didn't work out. But You never know when you can pick up a useful tip or two...
Also, it would be helpful to explain why you disagree. Again, I don't mind if you don't like my play style, but explain and give suggestions.

I like the whole idea but i wouldnt drop the >B spacing you shouldnt drop it just for your downtilts, also the way you play i guess you get grabbed alot. Im gonna try out that k stick

Well that would be my suggestion to you

Yeah, I still use side B spacing for certain matchups / situations, but as a whole, I'll try to save it for high percents. I'm glad you like the idea though. And you did good analysis of my play style because some players will finally try to grab after realizing that most of their ground attacks end up getting themselves hit. This is actually one situation that I do change it up and space with retreating neutral B's (reversed) and side B's so I keep my opponent guessing and adapting to how I fight.

 

[FadedImage]

The main problem with running a mostly defensive ZSS is when you run into characters with good shield pressure. Characters that have great aerial game that leads to a great jab/grab. Think Marth, Ness, etc. Characters like that won't even give you time to retaliate out of your shield. And they'll mix it up between their jabs, grabs, and shielding, so you have to guess how to react as far as spotdodging and countering goes, which means you're playing their game.

However, against some characters, I agree. ZSS has some decent options out-of-shield, as long as her opponent doesn't have time to shield or pressure.

 

[7thFonon]

Yeah, that's basically what I aim for is to really make sure that I get out of my shield and attack before my opponent's attack recovery allows them to put up their shield. Though I do know it's limits. I won't try this on a Wario or Metaknight, but for characters such as Wolf, Donkey Kong, and Ike, I've found this to help me a lot through my past experiences. But you're right, shielding is defenitely not the best option for some characters, I just use that as my main play style. I actually started out keeping my distance and using forward B a lot before I switched to defense, so I have that in my back pocket just in case .

 

[highandmightyjoe]

As far as I know changing your control scheme never makes anything new possible, or takes away anything else. It simply makes certain things easier to do and other things harder to do. So your control scheme should just be based on what you feel is more important to your character. If you feel that turnaround downtilt is more valuable than running upsmash then thats your preference and no one else should tell you to do otherwise. Personally I have different setups for different characters. I set the c-stick to attack for some of them, but I leave it as is when I play ZSS.

In regards to the rest of your post, I'll be honest, poor defense is why I left Zamus for a while. Her grab if dodged is punishable, she's light with a somewhat gimpable recovery, and has somewhat less effective out of shield options than other characters, though as you've shown she does have some. Spacing is really all she has, and so alot of people choose to use her sideB as a major spacing tool, you don't and thats your preference. If it works for you thats fine.

One thing that I will say for not spamming the overB is this. Diminished returns I feel is one of the least understood aspects of the game at this point. Alot of people spam her overB and then try to kill with it at high percents. Then it doesn't work and they wonder why. Not spacing with her overB will actually make it a more effective finish as it will be more likely to remain fresh. The same goes for her Uair. Alot of people spam it as a combo filler, but if you choose not to then it can kill at decent percents if its fresh.

Just some stuff to throw out there. Again, it's all about personal preference.

 

[fkacyan]

Online tourneys? I can't say those even count...

Poster above me: There are other kill moves. Keeping a bair fresh is better, honestly.

 

[7thFonon]

Online tourneys? I can't say those even count...

Poster above me: There are other kill moves. Keeping a bair fresh is better, honestly.

That's why I said ... "Eh" when I posted my tourney. Remember, I said that I "can" space with Side B, but I have no use for doing that in exception of some characters. If I feel that I have to space with Side B, then hell, I will Space with Side B.... But don't knock me because you can't mix-up your game or have different play styles.

Plus, most of the things I post here are facts that can't be argued with such as the attacking out of shield for certain characters. I could go to an online tourney full of people who never played the game and got last place and they would still be facts.

And you haven't posted any reasons for why you disagree. This is why I am only addressing you. You basically came in and posted comments that are completely irrelevant to Zero Suit Samus and her defensive options. What are you thinking?


Edit :

HighandMightyJoe , yeah, that's another one of my main reasons I like to stay in close and rack up damage with quick attacks since I can kill with my Side B, and I still have Back Air in case my opponent gets too close. A lot of the stuff I think was already mentioned but I can't blame you, that is a lot to read xD .

 

[fkacyan]

That's why I said ... "Eh" when I posted my tourney. Remember, I said that I "can" space with Side B, but I have no use for doing that in exception of some characters. If I feel that I have to space with Side B, then hell, I will Space with Side B.... But don't knock me because you can't mix-up your game or have different play styles.

Lolwut?

Don't tell me I'm wrong when you have nothing to back up your playstyle's effectiveness. Results are all that matter, theorycraft is pointless without evidence.

 

[ph00tbag]

For what it's worth, I think you're not using Zamus to her full potential if you only use her defensive aspects. Zamus can dominate much of the cast by being on offense, then switching to defense when she can't keep the pressure any longer. The reason you see the "flashy combos" (I personally think they're incredibly utilitarian), is because they are more effective at KOing than simply shield camping.

Basically, my point is your playstyle is essentially half of what most of the ZSS community already does, it's just that that stuff is much more subtle, so it's hard to pick up on unless it's all you do. Put another way, only having a good defense is not nearly as effective as having that plus a good offense.

And honestly, Plasma Whip really isn't a KO move. Its knockback angle is way too steep to be effective against all but the floatiest of characters. Use bair, fair, or dsmash -> Flip Jump.

 

[ph00tbag]

For what it's worth, I think you're not using Zamus to her full potential if you only use her defensive aspects. Zamus can dominate much of the cast by being on offense, then switching to defense when she can't keep the pressure any longer. The reason you see the "flashy combos" (I personally think they're incredibly utilitarian), is because they are more effective at KOing than simply shield camping.

Basically, my point is your playstyle is essentially half of what most of the ZSS community already does, it's just that that stuff is much more subtle, so it's hard to pick up on unless it's all you do. Put another way, only having a good defense is not nearly as effective as having that plus a good offense.

 

[7thFonon]

Lolwut?

Don't tell me I'm wrong when you have nothing to back up your playstyle's effectiveness. Results are all that matter, theorycraft is pointless without evidence.

Don't change the subject, I clearly said that most of the stuff I posted here is fact. Such as.... it is impossible for Wolf to do anything (not even block) if you block the first phase of his f. tilt, spot dodge and down tilt immediately afterward. You can't argue with that, stop being an ***hole.

For what it's worth, I think you're not using Zamus to her full potential if you only use her defensive aspects. Zamus can dominate much of the cast by being on offense, then switching to defense when she can't keep the pressure any longer. The reason you see the "flashy combos" (I personally think they're incredibly utilitarian), is because they are more effective at KOing than simply shield camping.

Basically, my point is your playstyle is essentially half of what most of the ZSS community already does, it's just that that stuff is much more subtle, so it's hard to pick up on unless it's all you do. Put another way, only having a good defense is not nearly as effective as having that plus a good offense.

I see what you’re talking about, that you say, “shield camping”. Maybe I gave people the wrong idea if so, I'm glad you said that. I do not sit and wait for my opponent to come to me with an attack. It wastes your shield and doesn’t get anything done. My play style is to take “close combat” then, in certain times while I believe there will be a counter-attack. I will use my shield and punish, putting me back into the offensive position. This is why I made that list with various attacks and how to punish them.

I do not look at defense as only blocking. I feel that defense is being able to react to the “first attack” and recognizing the attack type while knowing what to do about it within a restricted time period. To me, important thing to recognize the attack and know each attacks' weakness in recovery.

You say that many people probably incorporate what I do into their play. I could not agree more that this is most likely the truth. However, there has not been a thread created on this, and it doesn’t hurt to acknowledge all of your options.

You say a good offense will always beat a good defense… I can’t argue with that. I find that funny in a way (not to your opinion, but to that in general). If you watch / play sports, especially basketball, you should know that this is an on-going argument that will never end. I know this isn’t basketball, but its still the same general opinion.

I think you just made me want to make this a defensive/offensive thread xD .

 

[ph00tbag]

You say a good offense will always beat a good defense… I can’t argue with that. I find that funny in a way (not to your opinion, but to that in general). If you watch / play sports, especially basketball, you should know that this is an on-going argument that will never end. I know this isn’t basketball, but its still the same general opinion.

I'm not so much saying that one is better than the other. I'm saying both are better than one. The tone of your post was somewhat contemptuous towards Zamus' offensive options, and I had to take issue with that, because Zamus is one of the few characters that can really take advantage of being aggressive, even outright offensive.

On an unrelated note, what part of NC are you from? I'm at UNC, currently, although I summer in Cary.

 

[7thFonon]

Ah, yeah, I switched to being more defensive because I liked my forward B, but when I used it a lot, I found myself having two (sometimes 3 if I didn't get a chance to land many f. airs). So I decided to test something out. I tried fighting up close the entire time (until my opponent was around 120-140%) then using my forward B or other fresh kill moves to finish.

This is where I ran into a problem. When you force yourself into close combat, of course you will need to use block more often as attacks are quicker and more damaging than (most) ranged attacks. I couldn't do anything out of block. When I used to use Marth, I could use quick grabs, short hop B. airs, F. airs or N. airs right out of my shield. This was almost non existant with Zero Suit as most of her short hop attacks went flying over my opponet's head. I tried to grab more frequently out of shield... but the risk just wasn't worth the reward.

So I thought about some things and I realized that Zero Suits' tilts had speed to them. I thought that maybe if I can get out of my shield and attack before my opponents' recovery allows them to get their shield up maybe I can still stay in close combat so I can save my forward B from serious decay. I decided to try this on wolf first. I went into practice mode with a friend and told him to hold shield right after using forward smash. I blocked his attack, and counter attacked with an up tilt... there was nothing he could do. That's what got me started on this defense... So I decided I'd go through other moves and learn all of their recovery. Before I knew it, I was getting free hits for more than half of the blocks I made. I later thought about using the C-Stick and seeing if I could do tilts with it... and after that, I used it against competition and... this is how I came up with my current play style. =)

I still use my old play style from time to time though. Sometimes it is worth it to decay forward B and have an extra attack at hand. Plus the move is hard to punish, even when it's power shielded. Sorry for the long *** posts, I'm writing up walls every time I post =/
Oh yeah and ph00tbag, I sent you a message.

 

[ph00tbag]

lots of writing

I can see where your coming from. My playstyle went through a similar metamorphosis. I just didn't stop using Plasma Whip. The came as a realization that Plasma Whip continues to be an amazing move, as long as you connect with two or three moves for every Plasma Whip. That means a lot of usmash, uair, Plasma Wire, Paralyzer, Dash Attack, tilts, jab. Anything. Hell, a jab combo after each Plasma Whip will keep you down to, at most, three Plasma Whips in the queue. Not that I'd recommend it, but it's an example as to how degeneration works.

Faded and I have been doing a lot of work with decay, and we've found a lot of interesting data, and the effect is, as long as you don't only throw out Plasma Whips (let's face it, practically, Whipspam is not viable), you're good to use it often for spacing, and since it really doesn't have KO knockback (without DI, it is 4th in raw KO percentage), I don't use it for KOs, I use it for damage, spacing, frustrating my opponent and edgeguarding.

 

[7thFonon]

I'll keep that in mind. Though I still like close up fighting more, there are always going to be times where I will have to space. I could try to restrict my f. B to when my opponent is at a low % to gain momentum in the fight... this way there's time to fight up close and use other moves... by then, the opponent's % will be high and the f. B will most likely be refreshed. I'll have to see how that works... But it will be interesting to see how both of our styles play against each other.

I'm going to be in the Raleigh area this weekend. But I don't know if I'll make it to Chapel Hill for this weekend, my mapquest rides consist of missing turns, exits, and doubled driving time xD . Do you guys play at like a University Center or something in Chapel Hill or how is it set up? My friend itch said there's only like 10 people there? Either way, I'll definitely make some time to eventually get up there.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'll keep that in mind. Though I still like close up fighting more, there are always going to be times where I will have to space. I could try to restrict my f. B to when my opponent is at a low % to gain momentum in the fight... this way there's time to fight up close and use other moves... by then, the opponent's % will be high and the f. B will most likely be refreshed. I'll have to see how that works... But it will be interesting to see how both of our styles play against each other.

I'm going to be in the Raleigh area this weekend. But I don't know if I'll make it to Chapel Hill for this weekend, my mapquest rides consist of missing turns, exits, and doubled driving time xD . Do you guys play at like a University Center or something in Chapel Hill or how is it set up? My friend itch said there's only like 10 people there? Either way, I'll definitely make some time to eventually get up there.

Generally speaking? Dorm rooms and apartments. I don't see anything happening in the Union, mostly because none of us want to jump through the necessary hoops.

 

[7thFonon]

I already know about that xD . Me, Dama, and itch ran a Melee tourney last year at UNCP... It took a month to get a place reserved and when we did, we got a dorm room lounge (which isn't a bad size) but we wanted the University Center....

Also, I did a few updates to the first post. I was wondering if anyone is interested in helping with doing some testing on aerial defense (when you're on the ground, opponent in Air). If there is someone with a fast connection and want to help, please tell me, it would be a lot easier to get data that way.

 

[NeoZero]

I was just watching your video, when I noticed something funny... The first "real" move you talk about in the video is the Down Air. But if you watch the video, the move your demonstrating is in fact the back air (and is refered to as such from then on). I think its just a typo, but it could end up confusing people who dont know better.

That's all I have to say at the moment. I haven't fully watched it yet, seeing as that I'm stuck with dial-up for the time being. Youtube is not dial-up friendly (10 real life minutes = 1 youtube minute).

Edit: I actually got enough to see the whole video (after almost an hour of loading). You'll be glad to heat that that's the only inconsistency I found in the video. Anyone else find something out of place in the video?

 

[7thFonon]

Thanks for telling me NeoZero, I'll be sure to make a side note for the video.

 

[ph00tbag]

I already know about that xD . Me, Dama, and itch ran a Melee tourney last year at UNCP... It took a month to get a place reserved and when we did, we got a dorm room lounge (which isn't a bad size) but we wanted the University Center....

Also, I did a few updates to the first post. I was wondering if anyone is interested in helping with doing some testing on aerial defense (when you're on the ground, opponent in Air). If there is someone with a fast connection and want to help, please tell me, it would be a lot easier to get data that way.

I've actually successfully used utilt to intercept a Fox dair, which surprised me. In fact, generally the best bet against aerial shield pressure in my experience has been utilt, although if they get too far away, dash attacks oos have been more useful to me. I've also gotten off a few usmashes out of sheild.

Sometimes you can also intercept their approach with uair or nair.

 

[7thFonon]

Up smash from shield.... I found it useful for attacks that lag when the opponent lands and they are close to me (example : Falco f. air), but besides that I use Dash attacks. Never looked at trying U. tilt to actually stop oncoming attacks like that, thanks for the tip.

I've also been trying to test things out like, sometimes my up smash will connect on Lucas's down air, and sometimes not. Like for example, I'd see if the first kick of Lucas's D. Air has more "priority" than the second or third. That's the kind of stuff I'm looking to test out... any unclear "attack clashes". ( I think I explained that okay... if not I'll try to re-word that xD. ) I'd say that N. Air is my most used move to clash attacks with others, but I would like to know when to use other moves better in other situations too...