Zelda vs. Yoshi Matchup Thread

[WhiteCrow]

Yoshi the Dinosaur

(Stolen concept from @ Mumbo ) Let's be honest, Zelda matchup discussion has been pretty rough here for the past few months. With 3.5 on the horizon and drastic changes being thrown around cast wide, I thought it would be more productive to single out matchups to really break them down. I may have disagreed with @ DarkStarStorm about working on matchup info before but I've had a change of heart and want to help the discussion along, starting with Zelda vs Yoshi, one of our least researched matchups. I love how collaborative the Triforce of Wisdom thread has been, and I would like this thread and other threads like it embody that community effort.

I. Videos:
Deviljho (Yoshi) vs Angel (Zelda) | friendly
Deviljho (Yoshi) vs Angel (Zelda) [2] | friendly
KoreanDJ (Zelda) vs Qwinn (Yoshi, Ness) | CEO 2014

II. Overview:
Yoshi's Strengths: Double jump cancelled aerials are incredibly hard to break with Zelda's multi hit moves, giving Yoshi a sound approach through Nayru's, nair, and forward smash. DJC Nair OoS is terrifiying for Zelda's who don't know how to pressure Yoshi's shield. Zelda is also vulnerable to Yoshi's upwards KO power of up air and up smash. Zelda's shield grab is also relatively slow, making it difficult to properly punish Yoshi's side b on our shield.

Yoshi's Weaknesses: Work in progress. I'm interested what the community thinks about Din's as an edge guarding tool and a neutral space controller.

III. Matchup Analysis:

Neutral Game: Work in progress


Comboing/Punishing Yoshi:

• Work in progress

Escaping Yoshi's Pressure:

• Work in progress

Edgeguarding Yoshi:

• Work in progress

Recovering against Yoshi:


IV. Stages
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you.
Counterpicks:

• Work in progress

BAN:

• Work in progress

V. Do's and Don'ts:

Don't:

• Shield Yoshi's side b
• Freely give Yoshi the ledge when he is recovering
• Underestimate the knock back and hitstun of Yoshi's eggs

Do:

• Work in progress

 

[TimeSmash]

(Keep in note I'm referring to 3.02 Zelda here and so this post's value might depreciate over time)

Well I don't have the opportunity to face a lot of Yoshis, but as the OP said you need watch the hell out for Double Jump Cancelling. It gives you lots of ways to mess with your opponent, and because of the unique properties of Yoshi's double jump, you have even more weird things to deal with. Yoshi's Double Jump armor bascially works as described below in this helpful Reddit Post:

"The reason Yoshi's armor breaks sometimes is because his armor doesn't remove all the knockback by default. Yoshi's armor is subtractive. Basically, when Yoshi gets hit, his knockback is calculated just like normal, and then 120 is subtracted from that. So a move that does 150 units of knockback (I do not know what the units are called) would do 30 knockback to Yoshi. If the move does 0 knockback or less after the armor is applied, Yoshi will receive no knockback like in the GIF. When we see Yoshi getting hit out of his double jump, it is because there was leftover knockback after the 120 was subtracted. It is usually only a small amount (unless Yoshi is at very high %), which is why Yoshi only flies a short distance after getting hit out of his double jump."

In this .gif, we see Yoshi being hit by Captain Falcon's forward air. Both characters are stuck in hitlag while the attack is occurring, but after it ends we see that Yoshi continues to rise upwards. He is then able to attack with a neutral air immediately. Note that although Yoshi lands in the same spot he started, Falcon has been pushed backwards.

This armor can be incredibly useful, because of the core game mechanics of Smash Brothers. Because your character's life is based on falling off the stage, it can be a reasonable trade to take some damage in exchange for momentum. By momentum, I mean the beginning of a combo. For instance, after landing the neutral air on Falcon, Yoshi could follow up with more attacks, possibly leading to a KO. The amount of damage a character has only comes into play when they are affected by a move with knockback, so taking some damage in exchange for performing knockback on the enemy can be very worthwhile.

Note the GIF the post is talking about can be found in the link below:

http://gfycat.com/EasyOddAmericancrow

Yoshi's Double Jump cancel can also allow him to perform smashes OoS as well, albeit it's pretty difficult to pull off. The logic behind that is that since the double jump dips him into the ground, if you act fast enough you can do other smashes after you hit the ground. Another property of Yoshi's double jump worth mentioning is that he can perform a rising aerial if need be by holding the jump button.

Yoshi also has the unique ability to parry, which is pretty crazy. Parrying is when Yoshi begins to shield an attack. Because of his unique shield, he has invincibility frames before his shield actually comes out.Yoshi's body often gets in the way of regular powersheilding though, so his body is also invulnerable for a short period of time. If you hit Yoshi during this time while he's invincible, he'll be able to act out of it with OoS (out of shield) options. This means he can do any aerial, or grab, or possibly even do a grounded attack due to his ability to double jump land. For a better description, I've quoted @PerhapsMan below--although he doesn't know me, from the posts I've read from him he seems knowledgable, so he might be able to help out on this thread too (and correct crap I've gotten wrong, haha).

From the thread "Parry Questions" (http://smashboards.com/threads/parry-questions.343591/)

During the startup animation of Yoshi's shield, Yoshi has invincibility frames in addition to a powershield. However, since Yoshi's body (large head) tends to get in the way of his powershield, it's not very useful, and instead, the invincibility of Yoshi's regular hurtboxes are used to block attacks instead.

When you hit Yoshi himself instead of his powershield during these frames, you get what's called a parry; Yoshi can cancel this with any Out of Shield option, and if you cancel it properly, you will not see Yoshi's shield at all. The attack will hit Yoshi, with the little blue circle that appears when you hit someone's shield, only Yoshi will have no damage, knockback or shieldstun, and Yoshi will either jump or grab (whichever you chose) before his shield appears. The timing is very difficult, but is easier if you crouch before parrying.

 

[4tlas]

Yoshi is an odd character, one that I don't have much experience playing against. But I would still like to theorycraft, for whatever its worth.

I think Yoshi can be summarized as a more aggressive Zelda. Due to his 2 counterattack systems (double jump armor -> double jump cancel attack, Shield parry -> attack), he can play a bait and punish game very well. Since his double jump armor is a counterattack system with mobility, he can use it offensively as well, forcing a defensive response since an offensive one is negated. This part is what Zelda lacks. However, Zelda has something Yoshi doesn't, and that is a non-linear, repeatable recovery. As such, Yoshi players can be forced to play the defensive bait and punish game so as to not get gimped offstage or even put there in the first place. This is where Zelda excels against Yoshi, as he does not have enough mixups to deal with the dins AND Lightning Kicks when he only has 1 double jump.

Assuming the Yoshi attempts to be aggressive in neutral, Zelda has a few options to deal with this. Grounded Nayru's can work against djc attacks, and low dins force Yoshi to jump high, preventing frequent djcs when approaching. I don't think Yoshi has many good options to clear dins, but maybe that's just because I haven't seen many people try. Then again, egg roll goes straight through dins, so be careful. Fortunately, Zelda is also hard to combo, so Yoshi's followups often require him to burn his double jump, which can be very unsafe against Zelda.

Assuming Yoshi attempts to be defensive in neutral, Zelda has very few options. Placing a din just beyond easy clearing range and then teledashing -> dash grab may be one of her only "good" options, as she can mixup her exact approach timing due to multiple teledash distances. Her only persistent hitboxes while moving are multihit moves that can easily be DJC'd. LK has enough knockback to break through the DJ armor, but the short window makes it difficult to use as an approach option against a defensive player.

Fortunately, I think the neutral game is balanced out by the offstage game. Dins and LK can stuff any Yoshi recovery, even when mixed up with egg roll. Yoshi makes it obvious if he is recovering low or high early, at which point you set up for din->ledge lightning stomp or din->midair lightning kick. Yoshi does not have enough mobility to punish proper Teleport recoveries either. At least, that's the impression I get. Mindgames are mindgames.

I haven't played enough against Yoshi to determine if this analysis is reasonable, or to identify the win/loss ratio. This might be a case where I'd do better switching to Sheik, but I think Yoshi's combos against Sheik are utter pain.

As for stages, I think Zelda would want large blastzones here, especially a high one. Dreamland?

 

[TimeSmash]

I just thought of something. If I used Din's to block Yoshi's double jump, would his double jump eat the Din's and go through it, or would the Din's stop him??

 

[4tlas]

I just thought of something. If I used Din's to block Yoshi's double jump, would his double jump eat the Din's and go through it, or would the Din's stop him??

I think he breaks through it. What I do is put them far out along his trajectory so it forces him to jump early, either to avoid the din or to break through it. Once he has jumped, place another if you have time to force the egg roll, then PEW PEW LK! If you don't have time, jump to threaten the LK (and/or footstool, if thats your style or he's recovering low) and let him go into egg, then pew pew anyway at his slightly altered position.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Yoshi the Dinosaur

(Stolen concept from @ Mumbo ) Let's be honest, Zelda matchup discussion has been pretty rough here for the past few months. With 3.5 on the horizon and drastic changes being thrown around cast wide, I thought it would be more productive to single out matchups to really break them down. I may have disagreed with @ DarkStarStorm about working on matchup info before but I've had a change of heart and want to help the discussion along, starting with Zelda vs Yoshi, one of our least researched matchups. I love how collaborative the Triforce of Wisdom thread has been, and I would like this thread and other threads like it embody that community effort.

I. Videos:
Deviljho (Yoshi) vs Angel (Zelda) | friendly
Deviljho (Yoshi) vs Angel (Zelda) [2] | friendly
KoreanDJ (Zelda) vs Qwinn (Yoshi, Ness) | CEO 2014

II. Overview:
Yoshi's Strengths: Double jump cancelled aerials are incredibly hard to break with Zelda's multi hit moves, giving Yoshi a sound approach through Nayru's, nair, and forward smash. DJC Nair OoS is terrifiying for Zelda's who don't know how to pressure Yoshi's shield. Zelda is also vulnerable to Yoshi's upwards KO power of up air and up smash. Zelda's shield grab is also relatively slow, making it difficult to properly punish Yoshi's side b on our shield.

Yoshi's Weaknesses: Work in progress. I'm interested what the community thinks about Din's as an edge guarding tool and a neutral space controller.

III. Matchup Analysis:

Neutral Game: Work in progress


Comboing/Punishing Yoshi:

• Work in progress

Escaping Yoshi's Pressure:

• Work in progress

Edgeguarding Yoshi:

• Work in progress

Recovering against Yoshi:


IV. Stages
Ultimately, Stage striking, banning, and Counterpicking comes down to personal preference. People will also have conflicting opinions as to which stages are better or worse for certain matchups. Use this as a rough baseline, understand the reasons why each stage may help hurt a particular character, and learn what your opponent might want to ban/counterpick against you.
Counterpicks:

• Work in progress

BAN:

• Work in progress

V. Do's and Don'ts:
Don't:

• Shield Yoshi's side b
• Freely give Yoshi the ledge when he is recovering
• Underestimate the knock back and hitstun of Yoshi's eggs

Do:

• Work in progress

Don't even touch Yoshi's shield, make him approach you and his game is over.

 

[Captain Zack]

I believe this matchup is slightly in our favor. Zelda greatly outranges Yoshi, and cripples his most useful longrange tool with Naryu's Love. He also gets easily combo'd by her since he lacks a decent Up Special and stuff. Even though those are huge factors, Yoshi's double jump armor can eat Din's Fire and even a kick IIRC. He can also NAir OoS if you approach recklessly. He also can have better movement than Zelda with his better wavedash and platform wavedash(double jump platform cancel into nair is ********). I don't know the exact matchup stats I'd put this at, but I think it's around 55-45 in Zelda's favor.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I believe this matchup is slightly in our favor. Zelda greatly outranges Yoshi, and cripples his most useful longrange tool with Naryu's Love. He also gets easily combo'd by her since he lacks a decent Up Special and stuff. Even though those are huge factors, Yoshi's double jump armor can eat Din's Fire and even a kick IIRC. He can also NAir OoS if you approach recklessly. He also can have better movement than Zelda with his better wavedash and platform wavedash(double jump platform cancel into nair is ********). I don't know the exact matchup stats I'd put this at, but I think it's around 55-45 in Zelda's favor.

Like I said, don't approach Yoshi and place dins where is double jump cannot cancel them (on the ground or at eye-level) and he's dead in the water.

 

[Mumbo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0PW9nNOX-0 (game 1)

One of the reasons I think this matchup is so bad for Yoshi is because Yoshi relies on combos, and Zelda doesnt get combo'd easily. Yoshi can't follow up off of throws at any percent. He has a hard time killing Zelda off the top in general. Upairs are hard to land, usually only after eggroll, which zelda has a million and one options against. Yoshi can only upsmash off a really good read. Down b is probably Yoshi's best kill option, either from above to punish a poorly timed upsmash or upair, or from the ground with a good read or crouch cancel.

If you can love jump, youre pretty well off, because Yoshi can't chase that effectively. Use jabs and tilts. Also, crouch cancelling is pretty effective as youll see from this match. You can edgeguard with a sweetspot fair or bair and beat yoshi's armor at stupidly low percents.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0PW9nNOX-0 (game 1)

One of the reasons I think this matchup is so bad for Yoshi is because Yoshi relies on combos, and Zelda doesnt get combo'd easily. Yoshi can't follow up off of throws at any percent. He has a hard time killing Zelda off the top in general. Upairs are hard to land, usually only after eggroll, which zelda has a million and one options against. Yoshi can only upsmash off a really good read. Down b is probably Yoshi's best kill option, either from above to punish a poorly timed upsmash or upair, or from the ground with a good read or crouch cancel.

If you can love jump, youre pretty well off, because Yoshi can't chase that effectively. Use jabs and tilts. Also, crouch cancelling is pretty effective as youll see from this match. You can edgeguard with a sweetspot fair or bair and beat yoshi's armor at stupidly low percents.

And the Diamond Dive is a great way to escape aerial followups against Yoshi. I always have to point out that option lol.

FFLed Nayru's works too, but I find that Yoshis expect it too often.