Yoshi MU Issues: Bowser Jr.

[ATH_]

Hello, I'm ATH. I've been having recent trouble in the Bowser Jr. MU.

I'd personally like to learn a lot about playing against Bowser Jr., and eventually overhauling this thread with tips and options against him for other Yoshi players to be able to read about!

The main issue I've been having is not his spam, that's easy, shield the cannonballs and grab the bots.
The problem I have been having is both getting in and knowing options when I'm in. He seems to be able to stop everything I go for and it's really frustrating. He moves so quick with so much coverage that I feel like I can't scratch him without moving to a different character.

Other Characters I main: Lucina/Marth, Fox.
Other Characters I'm Working on Maining: Mario, Robin

What would be my best options when I'm being pressured by Bowser Jr.? Any general tips for the MU? Any technical things I should know about going against this character? All help is appreciated, I'd like to get as much as I can. Thank you for reading. ^^

EDIT: I am well aware that this may see fit for the Q&A thread, however, I've seen many people complain about this matchup. So I thought it may be a good idea to make an entirely new thread. As well as the fact that I'm not just asking a simple question, but would like to learn and show good information about the MU to others. If a mod+ thinks that this belongs in that thread, I'm okay with a Lock, and I will copy it into that thread. Thank you, again.

The tips for beating Bowser Jr.:

1] Clown Kart has this great hop backwards at the start of the move. Many BJR players would use this to throw off my dash attack/dash grab/neutral air spacing. Be wary of this and try to delay your attack just a bit if approaching very horizontally so that you can try to react to a Clown Kart dash.

2] Stuff the Clown Kart if they are unwisely rolling at you with no cover. If you cannot or will not attempt to hit BJR (short hop neutral air is the most consistent method I've found; you want to aim for BJR and not the actual Clown Kart), then get out of the way. Blocking this move if it's just used raw provides zero benefit for you and only makes BJR players more comfortable.

3] Know the ranges on BJR Up+B hammer attacks. They hurt, but they can be easily baited and punished at a basic level. If the BJR you're up against likes to chase you with this for KOs, learn the ranges so you can drift down with confidence instead of panicking when you see their Up+B.

4] Find some way to deal with Mecha Koopas. I don't care what you do, just don't let them get comfortable using that move. Get out of the way, destroy it, throw it at them, throw it off the stage, whatever. Just don't let them do it comfortably.

5] BJR forward smash is pretty large. Very strong move, very active move, very big hitboxes. Respect it. Make sure to snap to edges from as far below them as you can with Egg Toss and if you somehow manage to get caught in this move, make sure to try your best to DI out.

6] BJR has decent hiboxes with quicker attacks and you generally don't want to strike first in an air-to-air situation because you stand a good chance of losing most exchanges.

7] If BJR pushes you out with forward tilt, do not barrel right back in. You're at disadvantage once you've been tagged by forward tilt, so just turn your brain on for a few moments and try to create a new situation in which you can force an advantage. If you have to back off to do that, then do it.

8] BJR's up smash OoS is very powerful. I would argue it's a core part of the character. Test the opponent to see if they're willing (or able) to use this move. This will determine how liberally you can apply shield pressure when you're at higher percents.

9] BJR has great horizontal control during down air. Unless someone else has a bright idea, I would just recommend getting out of the way of this move. I have yet to reliably beat it from below and timing attacks from the sides is difficult because of the good air control retained during the use of this move.

10] In situations where you can't exactly punish, you want to be able to at least safely start an offense. If the BJR player is punishing your punishes, then don't try those punishes. Instead maybe short hop OoS and react to their buttons instead of committing right away or do something that will make them think about committing to something or actually commit to something instead of you always taking the initiative. BJR can make things like down tilt and dash attack relatively safe if the situations are constructed properly, so instead of dialing in a maybe-maybenot punish, either know that you will punish 100% and execute or guess that you can't punish, but can at least start something offensive and move from there.

Have an example match-up a friend uploaded here (2nd match, starts at 2:57)

Granted both of us were relatively new to the match-up at the time (plus Wii U had just come out), still managed to pick up a lot from this. I actually play as both characters (and play against several other Koopalings) semi-frequently, so I'll give my personal tidbits.

1. Both characters do not want to be caught in the air. While neither is helpless/particularly juggle-fodder, both characters can be deadly when it comes to following up launchers. One thing to note in the vid is that the Koopa Clown Car's drill (D-air) will beat out any eggs directly beneath it.

2. BJ is probably most vulnerable when recovering. While Yoshi's not exactly thrilled venturing off stage, all of Bowser Jr's recovery options are incredibly risky/punishable. Oftentimes I've found myself eating a full D-air/Flutter Kick to the face, or even getting spiked out of my Up B. I tend to try and recovery high because of this (landing on the stage with mid-air Clown Kart if possible).

3. Lingering hitbox aerials are Junior's bane. D-air, N-air and B-air will more often than not hit the character himself rather than the Clown Kart, which does greater damage/knockback. Not to say it's wise to throw them out like there's no tomorrow, as certain aerials will beat it out. Or, Sakurai help you if they bait you into a retreating F/U-Smash, or stuttering the Clown Kart (brief kickback at the start).

4. Projectiles on Junior's end are more for stage control than actual damage. It was difficult for me to show off above, but keeping mindful of both Cannonballs and Mechakoopas is essential. As Yoshi I typically avoid them altogether, either by jumping over (tend to use Egg Toss to stay low/not let Junior have time to follow me up) or if I can time it right, grabbing them. Do NOT just shield/let them pass through, as not only could Junior use this time to run up and grab/punish you, but the Mechakoopa itself could get you as it passes back/turns back from the ledge. You can see when I attempted to grab/pummel him as the Mechakoopa exploded how bad that would have been (assuming it let me get either a regrab or gave me time to smack him with an F-air). You want to keep mindful of them, but don't sacrifice your neutral position to avoid them. Back up/stay in the air until they disappear if needed.

5. Tongue is key. Though Junior has pretty good follow ups, Yoshi's grab range and proficiency will trump BJ's own grab game. Pivot grabbing is very useful for punishing the Clown Kart move, as well as roll/spotdodging. Even better is Egg Lay, which can be used to grab him out of the air. Getting Bowser Junior off or near the edge of the stage with this will almost certainly result in him eating an aerial. Be mindful of tilts should you just barely miss. I don't recommend dash grabbing unless you can mindgame them into falling for it. I tend to like to use Eggs to keep them from wanting to jump, then go for a grab when they approach.

 

[rje457]

YES! I too struggle with this match-up, Yoshi is my main right now but when I face a Bowser Jr. I find it much easier to switch to my secondary Peach. So I'm not to much of an expert because I struggle too, but I really like to get in Bowser Jr's "Blind Spot" the point in between him feeling comfortable to shoot a projectile and he's too far to immediately punish you for using an egg toss to force him to do something stupid. Dairs are risky, but my favorite move against Bowser Jr. as Yoshi is his Bair, which if spaced right can make you a wall to him.

 

[Shiri]

As for your issues in the matchup, your problems are incredibly vague. It's going to be difficult to offer assistance without some more concrete notes on your part.

If you want help with the matchup, please provide specific moves/situations/ideas you're having trouble with.

Here are some general notes I've accumulated while playing the 3DS version:

1] Clown Kart has this great hop backwards at the start of the move. Many BJR players would use this to throw off my dash attack/dash grab/neutral air spacing. Be wary of this and try to delay your attack just a bit if approaching very horizontally so that you can try to react to a Clown Kart dash.

2] Stuff the Clown Kart if they are unwisely rolling at you with no cover. If you cannot or will not attempt to hit BJR (short hop neutral air is the most consistent method I've found; you want to aim for BJR and not the actual Clown Kart), then get out of the way. Blocking this move if it's just used raw provides zero benefit for you and only makes BJR players more comfortable.

3] Know the ranges on BJR Up+B hammer attacks. They hurt, but they can be easily baited and punished at a basic level. If the BJR you're up against likes to chase you with this for KOs, learn the ranges so you can drift down with confidence instead of panicking when you see their Up+B.

4] Find some way to deal with Mecha Koopas. I don't care what you do, just don't let them get comfortable using that move. Get out of the way, destroy it, throw it at them, throw it off the stage, whatever. Just don't let them do it comfortably.

5] BJR forward smash is pretty large. Very strong move, very active move, very big hitboxes. Respect it. Make sure to snap to edges from as far below them as you can with Egg Toss and if you somehow manage to get caught in this move, make sure to try your best to DI out.

6] BJR has decent hiboxes with quicker attacks and you generally don't want to strike first in an air-to-air situation because you stand a good chance of losing most exchanges.

7] If BJR pushes you out with forward tilt, do not barrel right back in. You're at disadvantage once you've been tagged by forward tilt, so just turn your brain on for a few moments and try to create a new situation in which you can force an advantage. If you have to back off to do that, then do it.

8] BJR's up smash OoS is very powerful. I would argue it's a core part of the character. Test the opponent to see if they're willing (or able) to use this move. This will determine how liberally you can apply shield pressure when you're at higher percents.

9] BJR has great horizontal control during down air. Unless someone else has a bright idea, I would just recommend getting out of the way of this move. I have yet to reliably beat it from below and timing attacks from the sides is difficult because of the good air control retained during the use of this move.

10] In situations where you can't exactly punish, you want to be able to at least safely start an offense. If the BJR player is punishing your punishes, then don't try those punishes. Instead maybe short hop OoS and react to their buttons instead of committing right away or do something that will make them think about committing to something or actually commit to something instead of you always taking the initiative. BJR can make things like down tilt and dash attack relatively safe if the situations are constructed properly, so instead of dialing in a maybe-maybenot punish, either know that you will punish 100% and execute or guess that you can't punish, but can at least start something offensive and move from there.

 

[ATH_]

As for your issues in the matchup, your problems are incredibly vague. It's going to be difficult to offer assistance without some more concrete notes on your part.

If you want help with the matchup, please provide specific moves/situations/ideas you're having trouble with.

Here are some general notes I've accumulated while playing the 3DS version:

1] Clown Kart has this great hop backwards at the start of the move. Many BJR players would use this to throw off my dash attack/dash grab/neutral air spacing. Be wary of this and try to delay your attack just a bit if approaching very horizontally so that you can try to react to a Clown Kart dash.

2] Stuff the Clown Kart if they are unwisely rolling at you with no cover. If you cannot or will not attempt to hit BJR (short hop neutral air is the most consistent method I've found; you want to aim for BJR and not the actual Clown Kart), then get out of the way. Blocking this move if it's just used raw provides zero benefit for you and only makes BJR players more comfortable.

3] Know the ranges on BJR Up+B hammer attacks. They hurt, but they can be easily baited and punished at a basic level. If the BJR you're up against likes to chase you with this for KOs, learn the ranges so you can drift down with confidence instead of panicking when you see their Up+B.

4] Find some way to deal with Mecha Koopas. I don't care what you do, just don't let them get comfortable using that move. Get out of the way, destroy it, throw it at them, throw it off the stage, whatever. Just don't let them do it comfortably.

5] BJR forward smash is pretty large. Very strong move, very active move, very big hitboxes. Respect it. Make sure to snap to edges from as far below them as you can with Egg Toss and if you somehow manage to get caught in this move, make sure to try your best to DI out.

6] BJR has decent hiboxes with quicker attacks and you generally don't want to strike first in an air-to-air situation because you stand a good chance of losing most exchanges.

7] If BJR pushes you out with forward tilt, do not barrel right back in. You're at disadvantage once you've been tagged by forward tilt, so just turn your brain on for a few moments and try to create a new situation in which you can force an advantage. If you have to back off to do that, then do it.

8] BJR's up smash OoS is very powerful. I would argue it's a core part of the character. Test the opponent to see if they're willing (or able) to use this move. This will determine how liberally you can apply shield pressure when you're at higher percents.

9] BJR has great horizontal control during down air. Unless someone else has a bright idea, I would just recommend getting out of the way of this move. I have yet to reliably beat it from below and timing attacks from the sides is difficult because of the good air control retained during the use of this move.

10] In situations where you can't exactly punish, you want to be able to at least safely start an offense. If the BJR player is punishing your punishes, then don't try those punishes. Instead maybe short hop OoS and react to their buttons instead of committing right away or do something that will make them think about committing to something or actually commit to something instead of you always taking the initiative. BJR can make things like down tilt and dash attack relatively safe if the situations are constructed properly, so instead of dialing in a maybe-maybenot punish, either know that you will punish 100% and execute or guess that you can't punish, but can at least start something offensive and move from there.

Wow, thanks! This is super helpful.
So, in short, try to play safe and bait into advantageous situations? In this MU he seems to hold most of the cards here, which was the main issue I was having. Similar to what rje457 said, it feels like he's at a constant ready to punish anything and everything you do. When I was facing good Bowser Jr.s, I would attempt to pick moves in an unpredictable, yet still defensive kind of matter, which would constantly get me punished. Then I'd switch it up, and switch it up, and switch it up. It just kept feeling like I couldn't do anything about the situation, and I understand that that also means that he was able to apply extreme pressure onto me which got to my head.

BJR is definitely a strong mind-game player. Especially a good player who isn't a spam junkie.
Thank you for the tips though, these all helped immensely. Hopefully the next time I'm up against a Bowser Jr., I'll be more prepared for the matchup.

 

[IsmaR]

Have an example match-up a friend uploaded here (2nd match, starts at 2:57)

Granted both of us were relatively new to the match-up at the time (plus Wii U had just come out), still managed to pick up a lot from this. I actually play as both characters (and play against several other Koopalings) semi-frequently, so I'll give my personal tidbits.

1. Both characters do not want to be caught in the air. While neither is helpless/particularly juggle-fodder, both characters can be deadly when it comes to following up launchers. One thing to note in the vid is that the Koopa Clown Car's drill (D-air) will beat out any eggs directly beneath it.

2. BJ is probably most vulnerable when recovering. While Yoshi's not exactly thrilled venturing off stage, all of Bowser Jr's recovery options are incredibly risky/punishable. Oftentimes I've found myself eating a full D-air/Flutter Kick to the face, or even getting spiked out of my Up B. I tend to try and recovery high because of this (landing on the stage with mid-air Clown Kart if possible).

3. Lingering hitbox aerials are Junior's bane. D-air, N-air and B-air will more often than not hit the character himself rather than the Clown Kart, which does greater damage/knockback. Not to say it's wise to throw them out like there's no tomorrow, as certain aerials will beat it out. Or, Sakurai help you if they bait you into a retreating F/U-Smash, or stuttering the Clown Kart (brief kickback at the start).

4. Projectiles on Junior's end are more for stage control than actual damage. It was difficult for me to show off above, but keeping mindful of both Cannonballs and Mechakoopas is essential. As Yoshi I typically avoid them altogether, either by jumping over (tend to use Egg Toss to stay low/not let Junior have time to follow me up) or if I can time it right, grabbing them. Do NOT just shield/let them pass through, as not only could Junior use this time to run up and grab/punish you, but the Mechakoopa itself could get you as it passes back/turns back from the ledge. You can see when I attempted to grab/pummel him as the Mechakoopa exploded how bad that would have been (assuming it let me get either a regrab or gave me time to smack him with an F-air). You want to keep mindful of them, but don't sacrifice your neutral position to avoid them. Back up/stay in the air until they disappear if needed.

5. Tongue is key. Though Junior has pretty good follow ups, Yoshi's grab range and proficiency will trump BJ's own grab game. Pivot grabbing is very useful for punishing the Clown Kart move, as well as roll/spotdodging. Even better is Egg Lay, which can be used to grab him out of the air. Getting Bowser Junior off or near the edge of the stage with this will almost certainly result in him eating an aerial. Be mindful of tilts should you just barely miss. I don't recommend dash grabbing unless you can mindgame them into falling for it. I tend to like to use Eggs to keep them from wanting to jump, then go for a grab when they approach.

 

[ATH_]

@ IsmaR Thanks! All of this is super helpful, sometime soon I'll transform this thread into an information haul of tips to go against BJR, thanks for all the help~