Yoshi and an Aggressive Defense

[Defender]

Hello fellow Yoshi players. I had an interesting thought recently, and I was wondering what you all thought about it: Should a Yoshi user adopt an aggressive style of defense?

There are several reasons that I think that it might be a good idea for a Yoshi player to adopt an aggressive style of defense. First, Yoshi has a few minor problems on defense since he cannot jump out of his shield and has a slow roll. Second, Yoshi has excellent dodge and hit moves, such as his fsmash, stutter stepping, and his pivot grab, allowing him to simultaneously avoid damage and inflict damage on his opponent. Third, his standard attack combo comes out very quickly and can be used to punish your opponent's slower attacks quite well.

Anyway, I'll be interested in everyones' opinions so that I can make my Yoshi even better.

 

[Eddosan]

What exactly do you mean by "aggressive style of defense"?

 

[TheSundanceKid]

Yoshi's A combo is a lifesaver and hars pretty good knockback!

 

[Shiri]

I think he means mid-range camping.

Yoshi actually has the tools for this, unlike in previous games. Unfortunately, the one thing stopping him from staying at this distance and being able to react effectively is the same "blind spot" he's had since 64: the space above and in front of his nose. Yoshi has never been able to cover this space with any reliability, and too many characters like Pikachu, Meta Knight, the Marios, and the space animals (just to name a few) can take advantage of this with very powerful and effective approaches. If you're in a matchup where you can play mid-range to your advantage, then do so, by all means. Just make sure that you're not digging yourself into a very deep hole by applying this to all your matchups, as I don't think it'll work out all that well.

 

[Eddosan]

If all else fails, use fire. I mean, D-tilt. It recovers fast enough that, if you miss with it, you can dodge or do some other defensive maneuvers. Just don't try it too much against characters with disjointed hitboxes (Marth for example).

 

[Gindler]

Short hopped Bair walls seem to work for me, or the egg lay since the lag is so minimal now they can't really punish it, and some noobs to fighting yoshi might think it's a missed grab and rush into a smash attack or w/e you want (don't count on that alot though =P)

 

[Shiri]

LOL I -love- it when that happens, ROFLLLLLLLLLLLL!

 

[Defender]

What exactly do you mean by "aggressive style of defense"?

Sorry, I should have ellaborated a little more. What I mean by an aggressive style of defense is using Yoshi's shield and dodge maneuvers a little less than other characters and relying more on counter attacks.

Anyway, this is all good stuff to keep in mind, so thanks everyone.

 

[bigman40]

I have to say that this is sort of the strategy that I'm using for most of my opponents (even snake and MK ), but I might have a more aggressive setting because I don't like giving my opponents moments to think about what they can do to counter my game. For the even worse matchups, I play further away, until I force an opening. Then I go insane =P, but it's still like a aggressive-defensive play.

 

[ArowYoshi]

i fight using an aggressive defense but i cant keep my fingers working that fast for the whole fight so i back away and force them to come to me, and a simple down B can punish their charges pretty easily and give me nice rests
also about the blind spot earlier, if its what im thinking about then a well timed and aimed egg can cover that spot well enough and it leads to punishing combos.

 

[Depster]

If you aim the ftilt up it should cover that spot

 

[Defender]

If you aim the ftilt up it should cover that spot

Hmm... That's something to keep in mind. I think that the egg throw has too much ending lag to cover that spot, but this might work. Also, I can't remember, but a grounded Yoshi Bomb may just have enough range to cover that spot during the descent part of the attack. That might be a stretch, though.

 

[KiwiBear]

You know, i figured out the same problem with yoshi. that exact area by his nose isn't protected at all even if you're in the middle of an attack. i've remedied this by only attacking if I'm higher than the opponent simply dodging, or always entering "tails first".

Just a side note they nerfed the mess out of Yoshi egg throw. if anyone notices, it cracks a lot sooner that before, and is actually a little smaller (although the explosion is still decent).

I can tell you now though Yoshi is VERY weak against a smart Zelda. I've found this to be just about Yoshi's only bane.

 

[Defender]

You know, i figured out the same problem with yoshi. that exact area by his nose isn't protected at all even if you're in the middle of an attack. i've remedied this by only attacking if I'm higher than the opponent simply dodging, or always entering "tails first".

Just a side note they nerfed the mess out of Yoshi egg throw. if anyone notices, it cracks a lot sooner that before, and is actually a little smaller (although the explosion is still decent).

I can tell you now though Yoshi is VERY weak against a smart Zelda. I've found this to be just about Yoshi's only bane.

Yeah, Yoshi's tail is very useful and very good. I don't think that the eggs have diminished that much, though, but maybe I've just been playing Brawl too long and forgotten about how they performed in Melee.

So, we agree that Yoshi can be played aggressively. When he is put on the defensive, however, what are some of his best options considering that his roll and shield have a few problems?

 

[KiwiBear]

well from my experience your worst situation would be to have a great distance between you and an opponent (especially if your opponent specializes in projectiles). Its important to always be in close combat with an opponent OR in mid close combat. Since yoshi does have a considerable amount of priority in his attacks you want to always be in your opponents face. This is important since they took aways yoshi's ability to duck most projectiles. :|

 

[Wubblez]

Getting to far away is a bad idea for Yoshi, that has always been a problem for me. I generally try to stay away and make them charge which doesn't work with projectile users. =/

 

[ArowYoshi]

despite yoshi's slow dodge i still use dodge about as much as i attack. infact my brother who mains marth says "stop dodging, god i cant hit you" which is kinda the point. but i never run into a problem with his dodge speed, besides that if your opponet is fast then tilts are about all you can do out of a dodge, that or Dsmash. and i dont use jump out of shield with the other characters so i cant really say anything about that besides i wouldnt use it if he had it.

but i would say stay at about at the close end of mid range because he is the 10th fastest attacker and has good priority with tilts, so he should get along well at that range.

 

[Chaco]

I cvan't play an aggressive defense...my offense as only Kiwi and Leiathan knows is in your face until I gimp you at 18%...lol happened alot to him...and twice to Kiwi.

I'mma short hop bair into tilt combo dash kinda Yoshi. Then dtilt for the gimp.

 

[ducky285]

I find Yoshi to be at his best defensively if he's constantly moving. Short dashes around the stage allows for the quick pivot grab defense and allows for ETSes. Stay out of your opponents way and hit them as they whiff their attacks.

Spot dodging is actually useful since there's no shield drop animation or slow roll to deal with as long as you don't hold the shield button down. Spot dodge to d-smash is useful for getting people off your ***.

Of course, I could be completely wrong about everything but I'm perfectly willing to accept that since I suck at this game anyway.

 

[Talazala]

I think he means mid-range camping.

Yoshi actually has the tools for this, unlike in previous games. Unfortunately, the one thing stopping him from staying at this distance and being able to react effectively is the same "blind spot" he's had since 64: the space above and in front of his nose. Yoshi has never been able to cover this space with any reliability, and too many characters like Pikachu, Meta Knight, the Marios, and the space animals (just to name a few) can take advantage of this with very powerful and effective approaches. If you're in a matchup where you can play mid-range to your advantage, then do so, by all means. Just make sure that you're not digging yourself into a very deep hole by applying this to all your matchups, as I don't think it'll work out all that well.

His nose could be easier to hit if it had a bull's-eye on it. I don't really find it to be a problem though. Maybe I'm not paying enough attention? I usually use bairs and shields as my way of defending myself, but I really don't see how Yoshi's nose is a problem.

 

[Defender]

Hello everyone. Kiwi just recently wrote a thread that does a much better job of describing an "aggressive defense" than I ever did, ( http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=182712 )and I recommend that everyone read it as it does a great job of addressing the short-comings of Yoshi's defensive game and providing creative ways to get around them.