Wolf vs. Mario/Ganon

[Chef2]

Advice? I struggle vs these two at my weeklies. I believe the Mario player is just an incredibly solid player, he spot dodges a lot of my stuff, but then when I do an empty hop he always has a read on me, so I think I'm just overall not at this guys level yet.

New Ganon though, giving me
a hard time. I know I should be dash dancing and baiting but Ganon spanks me like 3-4 times and then I'm offstage and dead.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

New Ganon though, giving me
a hard time. I know I should be dash dancing and baiting but Ganon spanks me like 3-4 times and then I'm offstage and dead.

Lame him out with blaster and learn how to combo off of it. You don't have to approach him, he has to approach you. His approach is weak, and wolf is able to destroy him, just for it doing it. Whether it be Shine OoS, grabs, whiff punishing etc. He is rather simple to beat, just play smash.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Ya you really don't have to approach ganon. Make him come to you by shooting lasers. He will approach with an aerial, so shield and grab. Also watch your DI against ganon, one of his strong hits could be detrimental. Also he is fairly floaty so don't always wait for him to come back to you. He can nair fairly quickly out of hit stun.

Also pick away at ganon. You don't have to zero to death him. just shine aerial and reset to the neutral (shoot lasers). Don't feel bad about camping lasers. A ganon won't always hit their L-cancel either, especially if they get the hit (on shield hopefully). I play ganon and wolf, but almost never play the match-up so I will do some more thinking about it. These is just my thoughts!

What kind of tech level are you at? I am not very good, but would like to get better as well I have been practicing pivot tilts and jabs as well as just simply grabbing ledge. Many players never grab ledge (me included), and is definitely a skill to be able to grab ledge quickly (pivot wave dash, run off and shine turn around up-b, reverse aeriel rush). You would be surprised about how many options you have when you grab ledge (especially against ganon)

 

[Chef2]

Lame him out with blaster and learn how to combo off of it. You don't have to approach him, he has to approach you. His approach is weak, and wolf is able to destroy him, just for it doing it. Whether it be Shine OoS, grabs, whiff punishing etc. He is rather simple to beat, just play smash.

Thanks you two, I suppose I'll have to start using that blaster finally. I play such an aggro wolf I don't ever shoot the blaster lol but I guess it's time to slow down my wolf as the Ganon has beaten me solidly 3 weeks in a now. And that nair does come out fast I won't reach for my combos.

I find all his aerials have such ridiculous shield knockback I can never land a shine OoS, I usually have to Wavedash to get back in close, but he jabs or grabs me after. Dunno. Thanks though, I'm definitely gonna work on my laser camp wolf. What kind of confirms can you get off lasers? Like laser->waveland forwards. Grabs? Dash attack?

My wolf tech, in all honesty (at the risk of sounding douchey), is pretty damn technically sound. I can wave shine CPU fox across FD no problem, I hit my shortens 75% of the time, and l-cancel % is always above 90. Stuff I'd say I need to improve is my shortens still misfire a little, I don't ever use pivot jabs/tilts and my shield drops could be better.

I dash dance a lot so I suppose learning pivots would be useful. When do you use them?

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

A lot of technical stuff goes quite unnoticed if you watch high level play. Even something as simple as run up jab works wonders (Leffen does this a lot). Pivots are extremely helpful (PewpewU just made a great showing with pivots against Hbox). Pivot grabs, tilts and jabs are a key to good play. I think wave shining with wolf is not very helpful unless shine (double shine) wavedash through shield. I would say shine grab is also important.

What about your ledge game. Rewatch your sets if you can and pay attention to your edgegaurds. If you are charging/doing smashes or running off and dairing you probably need to start there. Since you do have technical stuff down I would work on pivot ledge grabs and possibly reverse aerial rush ledge grab.

Also how about your DI?

 

[Chef2]

I feel like my ledge game is pretty solid, no sets to rewatch, but I did get a couple ledge drop shine->bairs and stuff. I can Wavedash back ledge grab, RAR the ledge from several distances, and I'm working on my shortened side B ledge stall but for now I usually drop down shine and then up-B to regrab.

Despite all that my ledge game wasn't the problem - it was winning the neutral and getting ganon off the stage. My normal high mobile game from dash dancing, wave dashing, short hops, etc. was just punished by ganons huge attacks. I'll work on my laser game and camp him out.

What about stages vs ganon? Normally I like platforms but ganons up air sucks.

Edit: My DI vs him could use some work. I DI the dthrow chain grab down and towards ganon to avoid it, but I got caught doing combo DI when I should been survival DI'ing just cause Ganon hits so unexpectedly hard.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

As far as stages, I prefer FD. Not sure of your stage list (I usually just play melee legal + Animal crossing and Sonics), but flat is easier to laser camp. Wolf's lasers are nice because unlike falco he can full hop laser onto platforms and still waveland. Platforms are great to combo on. I think that Sonics is great since wolf can wall jump you have a much better recovery mix up.

FD is really easy to camp, battlefield is also really nice for lasers and combos, but also a standing flash can hit the platforms perfectly (missed tech, tech roll, etc.) You also have to be careful like you said because ganon does great with up airs. Also you can get stuck on platforms as his stomp from the ground reaches the platforms. He can side-b through platforms as well as fair your tech roll/ missed techs. His down throw at the right % set you up on the platforms as well.

Also wolf has a great tech chase game with his down throw. A good option is down throw > wavedash forward. You gave to react to the roll, but it works well.

Since Ganon is so slow I would suggest DI away and teching behind him on his down throw. Mix it up, but a ganon will often try to read your tech with a stomp, if you DI away he has to react by jumping in that direction. He also will miss a wizz kick if you tech behind. I was unaware that Ganon had a chaingrab on wolf, I will check it out.

 

[Chef2]

Full hop blaster wavelands off platforms are awesome! Didn't realize you could do that, thanks (for that and the rest of the advice)!

Hmm FD and GHZ sound great, I feel like ganon gets more off platforms than wolf.

And yeah the ganon would get a few reps of d-throw on me before I DI'd anything.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

you can even full hop laser and waveland on platforms.

 

[Chef2]

you can even full hop laser and waveland on platforms.

Hold up. Do you mean I can full hop->laser->waveland without coming down from the full hop I.e. I can waveland as wolf travels upwards on the full hop?

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Ya, on battlefield for example, you can full hop laser and waveland on the platform (all in one full hop). Just after the apex of his jump, your laser should be out and you can then waveland onto the platform. Pretty cool and useful

 

[BearFist]

Real talk though, telling this guy to just do an aerial and then shine and reset to neutral is pretty bad advice. When Ganon hits you, he hits really hard, and if you just let him reset to neutral after getting a single hit, he's gonna win neutral sometimes and he doesn't have to win it as many times as you do to win the match if you're just doing a single hit. Ganon is a perfect combo weight for Wolf and there's no good reason NOT to take your punishes as far as possible so that you have to win neutral a fewer amount of times to ultimately win the match. Nair pillars are good, shine -> dair is good, shine -> three more upairs is good. Lasers are definitely good like other people have been saying, but this matchup is DEFINITELY about hitting him really hard when you get the opportunity. Ganon lacks a good get out of pressure option, and also does not have a very fast aerial to combo break. If there is any matchup in the entire game where you need to have a good punish game and use it incredibly effectively, it's this one.

FD is an alright stage if you're certain you won't get grabbed, but Ganon's upthrow chaingrab is gonna give you a bad day if you let it happen.

Also, backthrow is generally better than downthrow because you get to act out of it was faster.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

I disagree ganon has a pretty quick nair also his jab is a quick way to deal with pressure.

Chef2 has already been trying what you have suggested, aerial shine approaches. A good punish game is always necessary, but like PPMD has shown us is you must win the neutral. M2K has a much better punish game, but he took 9th at Apex.

Punishes are pretty route with wolf (shine dair, dash attack reset, nair shine, etc.) I would say that nair is not a very good approach on ganon (since it has very low priority) and ganon has great spacing options. I think saying go all punish is not good advise (you end up like chillindude - he is very good, but could be much better if he slowed his roll a bit).

Also I actually cautioned against aerial shine - I told him rather to shine > aerial. Aerial shine is an appraoch, Shine > aerial is defensive.

FD is also a fantastic level to camp lasers, I wouldn't worry to much about ganon grabbing as his range is minimal compared to the area you have to work with. Just look for an opening and bait out bad approaches from ganon.

 

[BearFist]

Nobody is saying that you have to ignore neutral. Of course you have to play neutral. But once you have a hit there's absolutely no reason to not take it as far as you possibly can't. Chillindude's neutral game is pretty awful, and the only reason he does so well is because his punish game is pretty good. Saying that he just has to, "Slow down," isn't a good argument. There's no reason that you need to sacrifice your punish game to make your neutral game better.

It's also not a good argument to just bring up top smash players and assume that they show exactly what the problems are with a specific line of play. They all have their own faults and there's no getting around that.

And again, nobody is saying you have to approach ganon. Obviously you have lasers and obviously they're good. I'm not taking issue with that. But I AM taking massive issue with the idea that you should just somehow ignore the punish game as if that makes your play safer. Ganon's fastest aerials are nair (frame 7) and upair (frame 6.) If you're juggling him correctly there's no way he should be able to fit in either of those to combo break. And again, he's perfect combo weight for Wolf. There's no reason to drop a punish if you can take it for free. Every extra hit you get in after you've hit confirmed is one less time you have to win neutral.

I don't know how to say this in any other words. Punishing is good. Not taking a punish when it's guaranteed is not good.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

I think we have different ideas on what slowing down means. At some point taking risks is flashy, but generally not smart play. I feel like you have solidified my position. Chillin's punish game consists of a lot of reads and guess to where one may DI. He also has many SD's. I suppose there are different camps in smash. I feel like a strong neutral should be your very first focus and beats out a strong punish game. I think you mistake me in saying that you shouldn't punish. Punishes should come naturally by way of becoming more technically savvy, and should not necessarily be your focus. If you always win the neutral you don't need a powerful punish, just wait for the right timing for the KO.

Your logic doesn't seem proactive enough. You say that you WILL lose the neutral sometimes therefore you should practice punishes. PPMD has shown that a strong mental game will take tournaments.

Chef2 is clearly losing the neutral, so to tell him he needs to capitalize on punishing Ganon does not seem to be the right track.

 

[Chef2]

Aight boys I like the discussion, no need to get heated tho we all part of the wolf pack


Neutral was my main problem, but my punish game wasn't very on point either. Messing around in the lab (with your guys advice, thanks) those nair shine pillars work great, I can get 3-4 reps before I dair into a tech chase or up air/Bair if I can get him off stage.

My laser game feels a lot crisper, I'm loving laser->waveland->dash attack if the laser confirms. I'm also getting solid at wave bouncing lasers back and forth when I camp.

Gotta say this laser camp feels like the way to go vs ganon. Good movement is still needed but ganons attacks cover pretty much all of wolfs incredibly short dash dance

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

I am glad to hear you are feeling more confident about the MU. Let us know how it goes next time you meet!

 

[Chef2]

Well I'd say it's more a "confidence in a wolf laser game vs lvl 3 ganon" lol but yeah I am feeling good with wolfs laser finally, I got the monthly this Saturday, hopefully I play the ganon and I'll let you know how it goes!

 

[Gunslinger]

The best player in my region plays Ganon and we grind it out a lot, and I know this matchup like the back of my hand. It's a game of RPS. He's either going to waveland around looking for a dair/fair, and run-in shield beats that (laser waveland does too, since Ganon is kinda open season once his aerial clanks with laser). Another approach option my friend loves to do is the flame choke, the side B. I like to condition him to think I'm going to run in shield so he'll go for the flame choke, then I'll run away or spot dodge to avoid his flame choke. Once you get that shine in on Ganon, he has to be dead. Mix up your "pillars" with nair and dair (dash attack is godlike too). Downthrow techchases are really helpful, as well as the backthrow -> energems mixup. Shine him around till he's offstage, then he only has a few options. The side b to ledge is super telegraphed, so just ramen noodles him when he's going for ledge. If he up b's, ledgehop bair, fsmash, and dsmash all wreck his recovery if spaced well. Whatever you do, do not get grabbed. Ganon has a baby ass grab range, if you get grabbed you ****ed up. Just play safe and make your punishes as strong as possible. I've gotten so good at this matchup my friend has to play Bowser against my Wolf now, you can do it. Just play safe, smart, and punish mega hard once you get that shine.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

ya flame chokes from the air are great. I use these quite frequently as Ganon. Like you said, you can fairly easily bait out the flame choke (depending on how he plays Ganon) and get a nice string in on him.

I wonder why he goes bowser, it seems like a much worse match up? Don't you eat him with lasers and dairs > shine?

 

[Gunslinger]

Flame choke is godlike, command grabs are so good in this game. Yeah it seems like a good matchup for Wolf and it's most likely even/in his favor, I'm probably just bad at the matchup honestly. If I don't approach with dair, he just cc's everything I do. If I approach with dair he up b's oos. I'm kinda forced to play really lame to get an opening, and it works until he gets something like YS/FoD/WW where his getup attack covers the entire stage lol.

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

Ya crouch cancel is really tough to beat sometimes. Waveland laser might be the best bet. I personally favor grabbing, but that could be tough too (though wolf does have a pretty good grab). He is tough to edge guard too becuase his up-b is very safe (especially on stage!).

 

[Gunslinger]

You right you right. Anytime I grab him and downthrow techchase him I get big damage (mostly because I know his teching patterns though, charged fsmash reads ftw). Yeah, edgegaurding Bowser is a pain. We should probably make an official sticky matchup thread so we can solve these matchup problems

 

[Chef2]

I agree we need a match up thread. Every other char in the game has one why not wolf lol

 

[Gunslinger]

Yeah right? And with many people, like Neon, claiming that he's one of the best/the best character this patch, we should get our **** together

 

[Chef2]

Need more wolf pack on the forum seems pretty dead on here haha but yeah wolf didn't really get the nerf hammer at all and the rest of the cast got hit pretty hard. Should be our time to "shine"

 

[SuperCoffeeBros]

I agree! Smashbards character forums seem so quiet!

 

[Taytertot]

depending on your spacing and your opponents percent after laser, i think you can get the second hit of fsmash as long as youre shff lasering.

 

[fAtomsk]

He's either going to waveland around looking for a dair/fair, and run-in shield beats that (laser waveland does too, since Ganon is kinda open season once his aerial clanks with laser)

I have to point out here that only ground moves can clank with other hit boxes. Aerials trade, and if Ganon hits Wolf's blaster projectile he will just destroy it and keep going, so you have to be a little more careful with your laser approaches than Falco.

 

[Gunslinger]

I have to point out here that only ground moves can clank with other hit boxes. Aerials trade, and if Ganon hits Wolf's blaster projectile he will just destroy it and keep going, so you have to be a little more careful with your laser approaches than Falco.

Right, I just meant that I think it's better to send the laser out as a sort of scout to see what your opponent will approach with and that it's easier to space an anti-aerial like up-tilt or up-smash if your laser takes the hit for you. Not saying you can just run in wrecklessly with dash attack or anything if your opponent nairs through your laser. Sorry for the poor word choice, clank was not the right word for it

 

[Sur Fartsalot]

What about Captain Falcon? Maybe I'm just a really poor player, but Captain Falcon has a very similiar moveset, but is definitely a lot quicker. Any advice for dealing with him?

 

[Gunslinger]

What about Captain Falcon? Maybe I'm just a really poor player, but Captain Falcon has a very similiar moveset, but is definitely a lot quicker. Any advice for dealing with him?

Falcon has insane punishes off of a lot of his moves, but pretty much the entire cast can zero to death spacies so whatever. CC his nairs and dash-dance bait his dair approaches. Up-tilit also stuffs a lot of his aerials. Honestly once you get the shine on Falcon, he should be dead, offstage, or eating a ridiculous amount of damage. I personally like to waveshine him towards the ledge, then f-smash. Waveshines on fastfallers are practically free with Wolf. F-smash and d-smash destroy Falcon's recovery. And if he goes for raptor boost to ledge, just grab ledge to cut off the option. Falcon is famous for tech-chases after down-throws, but Wolf can do it right back to him, so take advantage of that along with up-throw/back-throw mixups.