Wolf Ike matchup.

[Payton]

So I went to a tournament recently (my first) and I got destroyed by an Ike. I got four stocked twice. Any advice on this mu?

 

[Azureflames]

I don't have much experience in the MU in particular with Wolf, but imagine it's probably more in wolfs favor than ike. I can see it going either way though if the MU knowledge isnt there though. if you get in on Ike he's pretty easy to combo around. In neutral I'd suggest a heavy barrage of lasers to zone and stop quickdraw and limit his options. Be vary wary of spacing his hitboxes though, Regardless of who you are Ike can punish/combo pretty hard if you don't know how to space and deal with him.

If he recovers with upB you could try to time a laser or maybe a WD to the ledge, but that could be risky. Laser pressure seems like it would be better to pressure him on the edge, especially for Ike's that like to quickdraw attack onto the stage from the ledge. You need to be on point with edgeguarding if he goes for side-b recovery though. Also learn to DI his throws. Upthrow will throw you up and away from him while Dthrow will send you behind him (similar to roy/marth but a bit farther).

You're faster than him if you limit his quickdraw options since you have shine and lasers. Without quickdraw his fastest options are like....jab and side-b attack.

Overall respect his hitboxes, space well and dont get baited into big moves. Don't be too intimidated too much by quickdraw, stuff his face with laser pressure, use those Dair/nair crossupshines, DACUS's and edgeguard cautiously.

 

[Chef2]

Hey as an Ike main since 2.1 who's now basically switched over to wolf in the past month I feel like I can offer lots of advice. I'm bored on a study break though so this is gonna be long! Also, I feel like understanding how ike wants to approach this match up will help more than me just telling you what to do with wolf, so I'll first talk about what Ike's game plan is, then what wolf should do to counter.

Ike and Grabs
Ike wants to grab. I can't stress this enough. Ike loves grabbing fast fallers. On wolf he has a guaranteed uthrow chain grab to about 60%, after which hell uthrow Bair/fair you. Ike will get Bair/fair follow ups out of uthrow well into 100%. If Ike charges QuickDraw and your shielding, Ike is going to grab you out of QuickDraw. Keep in mind Ike can reverse grab out of QuickDraw, which allows him to grab you from about a battlefield platform away even when charged. Ike also loves to grab after jab1 (punch) or jab2 (knee), particularly jab2. Although not guaranteed, if ike lands a fair/nair at low %, he's gonna look to follow up with a grab. Lastly, good Ike's will often mix up their aerials with empty hop grabs.

Ike and the rest of his Neutral
Other than fishing for grabs, Ike's neutral is essentially spacing nairs, bairs and fairs, dash dancing to bait and punish (ike has a fast dash, but it is very very short), and sometimes QuickDraw mix ups. The amount of QuickDraw will depend on the player, but generally a QuickDraw heavy neutral isn't very strong and leaves Ike open to a lot of punishes. Ike also likes to bait with his double jump and then come down with an aerial. As mentioned above, Ike likes to mix up aerials with empty hop grabs. Ike has insane aerial momentum. In a short hop he jumps well over half of final destination. This causes him to play somewhat like Falcon with cross up nairs. Ike will approach with a nair, and if he hits shield, he'll just carry his momentum away to a safe place behind you.

Ike and securing the Kill
Once wolf is at Kill percent (80% and up, depends on a lot of factors like stage position and stuff though) Ike will still be looking for a grab to uthrow->fair/Bair. However, his ftilt now becomes a threat. It comes out super fast (7 frames) and hits hard. Spaced fairs and bairs will also kill you. Special stress on the Bair actually, I get most of my stocks with Bair. It's super fast and Ike's strongest aerial. I look to short hop, fast fall and then Bair as I land.

Ike and Shielding
I would pick Ike as a strong contender for worst out of shield options in the game. UpSmash and up B are so slow - no one will ever use them OoS. He has a 5 frame jump squat, making his Wavedash OoS and jump OoS slow. His Wavedash is only average range and the actual speed at which he gains height and distance during his jump is slow. Ike's aerials are also slow and start high. Nair is his best OoS option, but even then that'll take like 15 frames to get out and more as the move starts up and behind him. Bair is a good OoS if you can the hit the opponent with it, but they have to be behind you and in the air or Bowser tall, so that's unlikely. Despite of all this, Ike has a fast, far roll. Roll is probably Ike's best general way to get out of shield. Ike never wants to get caught in his shield.

Ike and Edge Guarding
Ike has some of the best edge guarding in the game. His fair is massive and can hit below stage, sniping even sweetspots (although you'll need perfect timing). Ike will go deep for you, he can recover from extremely low. Bthrow/Fthrow->walk off fair is an insanely good gimp tool, especially vs fast fallers.

Ike Stages
Ike wants big open space to chain throw you. FD, green hill zone, Pokemon stadium 2, yoshis island (long platform) and smashville are all great. Ike will rarely kill wolf off the top so ceiling height doesn't matter, but small side blast zones, like green hill, yoshis story or wario ware work in Ike's favor.

After all that, let's delve into wolf!

Wolf vs Ike's grab
You want to avoid being grabbed at all costs. This means never sitting in shield when Ike charges QuickDraw. I also smile to myself when I charge QuickDraw and someone shields, it means a free grab. To avoid getting grabbed after jabs, you have two options. Option A is good for all percents, and that's simply to smash di away. Option B only works for lower percents (I'd say 50% or less) and that's to smash di in and then shine after jab2. This is great because you've completely switched from defense to offense. Avoid shielding after ike lands a low % fair/nair, as ike will be looking to grab you. Instead, dash away or jump. Be wary of empty hop grabs. Really watch Ike. If he jumps at you and hasn't used an aerial, the empty hop grab is coming, react accordingly (id say utilt if you reacted quick, if not, dash out then back in and punish). Lastly, it's inevitable you will get grabbed. Obviously, di towards platforms to escape. However, if none are convenient, di away from Ike. Although he can still regrab you, he has to do a super fast dash->JC grab, and it's tricky at low percents (I mess it up all the time).

Wolf vs Ike's Neutral
Wolf should be running circles around Ike in neutral. Ike is slow, his attacks have very few active frames, and he leaves himself big windows to be punished. The trick to beating ike is creating and using these windows. Let me repeat that for emphasis. The trick to beating ike is baiting and punishing. Your gonna want to be dash dancing about 1.5 battle field platforms away. This keeps you outside his sword range, but also close enough he won't look to QD as much. Although these days Ike's are using less and less QD in neutral (big discussion in the Ike forums about how vulnerable QD leaves you in neutral). However, if you're still against a QD heavy Ike, your blaster will completely shut down QD. Throw out blasters when at a decent distance from ike, or if he's charging QuickDraw. That's all. Easy. When ike does toss out a move (most likely nair or fair, which have 9 and 13 frames of landing lag with l-cancel respectively) try to punish the lag. Use wolfs quick dash attack or grab or run up shine or even nair. If you manage to get Ike into shield, I'd be looking to grab ike as soon as possible instead of fancy shield pressure. Shine->grab is your best bet. I'd avoid the chillendude shine full hop dair shield pressure, as it let's ike nair you OoS (his only option really). Lastly, ike is very very vulnerable to crouch canceling. He has no multi hit moves and none that inherently break CC. Use CC shines and grabs and dsmashes often. Especially if Ike just killed you and he's at kill %. Get him to aerial you, CC it, dsmash. Also, avoid being above ike. Ike loves when people are above him, especially if he can swing that big sword through platforms to get at you. Avoid coming down with dairs, you'll eat nairs and utilts all day. Lastly, once wolf is getting into kill percent, be very very careful of Ike's ftilt and Bair. Respect the range in front of ike ftilt covers, it's too fast to react to. Bair is also very scary and probably my most used finisher with Ike. It comes out so fast AND is Ike's strongest aerial. Be very wary of Ike in the air when his back is to you, he's gonna look to fast fall and Bair you. Get away or be ready to shield
if you're in this situation.

Wolf combos on Ike
When you do get your hit in neutral and the combo is starting, basic wolf stuff is all you need. Up air juggles, shines, pillars, it all works great. Ike is big and heavy, perfect for comboing. When you get in on Ike, don't let up. Keep rushing him down, Ike doesn't deal well with pressure.

Securing the Kill as Wolf
Fsmash and dsmash when you see windows. Bthrow->flash will work and can kill from 60-120 depending on di, it's worth a shot if you have a grab at those percents. Dairs and shines set up flash really nicely too. Ike is a medium faller, but heavy, wolf fair and UpSmash won't kill off the top till your well into the 100's. Spaced Bairs can kill Ike too, but I try to avoid this as playing the spacing game vs ike is very very dangerous. Ike's sword is longer than wolfs whole body. Your better off to set up a Bair off a dash attack or shine or something then throwing it out raw.

Edge Guarding Ike as Wolf
Two scenarios to deal with, Ike is either going to recover horizontally with QuickDraw or low with Aether. Aerial QuickDraw was subtly nerfed in 3.5. When you land the aerial hit, ike is now helpless instead of being able to act. What this means is if you can place a Bair into Ike's QuickDraw path as he tries to get back on stage, he's dead. That easy. If he attacks, he'll trade but now he's dead. If he doesn't attack, he eats your Bair and dies. Granted, you have to have the time and the position to do this. If you don't have the right opportunity, just respect the recovery. Wolf doesn't have anything to hit past the enormous QD attack that will cover the ledge. Regarding aether, if Ike sweetspots below the stage, respect it unless you can beat ike to the ledge. However, if he goes even a little too high, wolf might just have the best punish in the game for this, his fsmash. When ike is spinning at the top of aether, he loses his hitboxes on the last spin. This means you can fsmash him at the end of his spin to launch him back off stage. Go to the lab and use debug mode to get a feel for when Ike loses his hitboxes.

Wolf Stages
Ban fd. Ban fd. Ban fd. Avoid anything that promotes Ike's chain grab. I can't think of any stage that gives wolf a huge advantage over ike. Stick to stages like battlefield that have platforms to escape chain grabs.

Closing notes
Wow that was long but hopefully helpful! Just wanted to mention about Ike's tipper system as people unfamiliar with Ike don't always understand it. His sword has three hitboxes, tip, blade and hilt, and then he also has arm hitboxes. The hilt is Ike's sweetspot, being by far the strongest. So if you can di or move a little further from Ike to take a blade or tip hit, do it. The blade and arm hitboxes are equal in power, the arms just not being disjointed. Lastly, the tip is the weakest. However, it's also a little weird in that it has a lower knockback angle, making it a useful tool for gimping.

Edit: In terms of who this favours, I would definitely say wolf. Wolf should be winning neutral 70/30 with his speed. Couple that with a great combo game on a character who gets combo'd hard and things look good. On the other hand, dying from one grab or getting gimped is a very real problem for wolf. I'd say 55/45 wolf.

 

[Payton]

Hey as an Ike main since 2.1 who's now basically switched over to wolf in the past month I feel like I can offer lots of advice. I'm bored on a study break though so this is gonna be long! Also, I feel like understanding how ike wants to approach this match up will help more than me just telling you what to do with wolf, so I'll first talk about what Ike's game plan is, then what wolf should do to counter.

Ike and Grabs
Ike wants to grab. I can't stress this enough. Ike loves grabbing fast fallers. On wolf he has a guaranteed uthrow chain grab to about 60%, after which hell uthrow Bair/fair you. Ike will get Bair/fair follow ups out of uthrow well into 100%. If Ike charges QuickDraw and your shielding, Ike is going to grab you out of QuickDraw. Keep in mind Ike can reverse grab out of QuickDraw, which allows him to grab you from about a battlefield platform away even when charged. Ike also loves to grab after jab1 (punch) or jab2 (knee), particularly jab2. Although not guaranteed, if ike lands a fair/nair at low %, he's gonna look to follow up with a grab. Lastly, good Ike's will often mix up their aerials with empty hop grabs.

Ike and the rest of his Neutral
Other than fishing for grabs, Ike's neutral is essentially spacing nairs, bairs and fairs, dash dancing to bait and punish (ike has a fast dash, but it is very very short), and sometimes QuickDraw mix ups. The amount of QuickDraw will depend on the player, but generally a QuickDraw heavy neutral isn't very strong and leaves Ike open to a lot of punishes. Ike also likes to bait with his double jump and then come down with an aerial. As mentioned above, Ike likes to mix up aerials with empty hop grabs. Ike has insane aerial momentum. In a short hop he jumps well over half of final destination. This causes him to play somewhat like Falcon with cross up nairs. Ike will approach with a nair, and if he hits shield, he'll just carry his momentum away to a safe place behind you.

Ike and securing the Kill
Once wolf is at Kill percent (80% and up, depends on a lot of factors like stage position and stuff though) Ike will still be looking for a grab to uthrow->fair/Bair. However, his ftilt now becomes a threat. It comes out super fast (7 frames) and hits hard. Spaced fairs and bairs will also kill you. Special stress on the Bair actually, I get most of my stocks with Bair. It's super fast and Ike's strongest aerial. I look to short hop, fast fall and then Bair as I land.

Ike and Shielding
I would pick Ike as a strong contender for worst out of shield options in the game. UpSmash and up B are so slow - no one will ever use them OoS. He has a 5 frame jump squat, making his Wavedash OoS and jump OoS slow. His Wavedash is only average range and the actual speed at which he gains height and distance during his jump is slow. Ike's aerials are also slow and start high. Nair is his best OoS option, but even then that'll take like 15 frames to get out and more as the move starts up and behind him. Bair is a good OoS if you can the hit the opponent with it, but they have to be behind you and in the air or Bowser tall, so that's unlikely. Despite of all this, Ike has a fast, far roll. Roll is probably Ike's best general way to get out of shield. Ike never wants to get caught in his shield.

Ike and Edge Guarding
Ike has some of the best edge guarding in the game. His fair is massive and can hit below stage, sniping even sweetspots (although you'll need perfect timing). Ike will go deep for you, he can recover from extremely low. Bthrow/Fthrow->walk off fair is an insanely good gimp tool, especially vs fast fallers.

Ike Stages
Ike wants big open space to chain throw you. FD, green hill zone, Pokemon stadium 2, yoshis island (long platform) and smashville are all great. Ike will rarely kill wolf off the top so ceiling height doesn't matter, but small side blast zones, like green hill, yoshis story or wario ware work in Ike's favor.

After all that, let's delve into wolf!

Wolf vs Ike's grab
You want to avoid being grabbed at all costs. This means never sitting in shield when Ike charges QuickDraw. I also smile to myself when I charge QuickDraw and someone shields, it means a free grab. To avoid getting grabbed after jabs, you have two options. Option A is good for all percents, and that's simply to smash di away. Option B only works for lower percents (I'd say 50% or less) and that's to smash di in and then shine after jab2. This is great because you've completely switched from defense to offense. Avoid shielding after ike lands a low % fair/nair, as ike will be looking to grab you. Instead, dash away or jump. Be wary of empty hop grabs. Really watch Ike. If he jumps at you and hasn't used an aerial, the empty hop grab is coming, react accordingly (id say utilt if you reacted quick, if not, dash out then back in and punish). Lastly, it's inevitable you will get grabbed. Obviously, di towards platforms to escape. However, if none are convenient, di away from Ike. Although he can still regrab you, he has to do a super fast dash->JC grab, and it's tricky at low percents (I mess it up all the time).

Wolf vs Ike's Neutral
Wolf should be running circles around Ike in neutral. Ike is slow, his attacks have very few active frames, and he leaves himself big windows to be punished. The trick to beating ike is creating and using these windows. Let me repeat that for emphasis. The trick to beating ike is baiting and punishing. Your gonna want to be dash dancing about 1.5 battle field platforms away. This keeps you outside his sword range, but also close enough he won't look to QD as much. Although these days Ike's are using less and less QD in neutral (big discussion in the Ike forums about how vulnerable QD leaves you in neutral). However, if you're still against a QD heavy Ike, your blaster will completely shut down QD. Throw out blasters when at a decent distance from ike, or if he's charging QuickDraw. That's all. Easy. When ike does toss out a move (most likely nair or fair, which have 9 and 13 frames of landing lag with l-cancel respectively) try to punish the lag. Use wolfs quick dash attack or grab or run up shine or even nair. If you manage to get Ike into shield, I'd be looking to grab ike as soon as possible instead of fancy shield pressure. Shine->grab is your best bet. I'd avoid the chillendude shine full hop dair shield pressure, as it let's ike nair you OoS (his only option really). Lastly, ike is very very vulnerable to crouch canceling. He has no multi hit moves and none that inherently break CC. Use CC shines and grabs and dsmashes often. Especially if Ike just killed you and he's at kill %. Get him to aerial you, CC it, dsmash. Also, avoid being above ike. Ike loves when people are above him, especially if he can swing that big sword through platforms to get at you. Avoid coming down with dairs, you'll eat nairs and utilts all day. Lastly, once wolf is getting into kill percent, be very very careful of Ike's ftilt and Bair. Respect the range in front of ike ftilt covers, it's too fast to react to. Bair is also very scary and probably my most used finisher with Ike. It comes out so fast AND is Ike's strongest aerial. Be very wary of Ike in the air when his back is to you, he's gonna look to fast fall and Bair you. Get away or be ready to shield
if you're in this situation.

Wolf combos on Ike
When you do get your hit in neutral and the combo is starting, basic wolf stuff is all you need. Up air juggles, shines, pillars, it all works great. Ike is big and heavy, perfect for comboing. When you get in on Ike, don't let up. Keep rushing him down, Ike doesn't deal well with pressure.

Securing the Kill as Wolf
Fsmash and dsmash when you see windows. Bthrow->flash will work and can kill from 60-120 depending on di, it's worth a shot if you have a grab at those percents. Dairs and shines set up flash really nicely too. Ike is a medium faller, but heavy, wolf fair and UpSmash won't kill off the top till your well into the 100's. Spaced Bairs can kill Ike too, but I try to avoid this as playing the spacing game vs ike is very very dangerous. Ike's sword is longer than wolfs whole body. Your better off to set up a Bair off a dash attack or shine or something then throwing it out raw.

Edge Guarding Ike as Wolf
Two scenarios to deal with, Ike is either going to recover horizontally with QuickDraw or low with Aether. Aerial QuickDraw was subtly nerfed in 3.5. When you land the aerial hit, ike is now helpless instead of being able to act. What this means is if you can place a Bair into Ike's QuickDraw path as he tries to get back on stage, he's dead. That easy. If he attacks, he'll trade but now he's dead. If he doesn't attack, he eats your Bair and dies. Granted, you have to have the time and the position to do this. If you don't have the right opportunity, just respect the recovery. Wolf doesn't have anything to hit past the enormous QD attack that will cover the ledge. Regarding aether, if Ike sweetspots below the stage, respect it unless you can beat ike to the ledge. However, if he goes even a little too high, wolf might just have the best punish in the game for this, his fsmash. When ike is spinning at the top of aether, he loses his hitboxes on the last spin. This means you can fsmash him at the end of his spin to launch him back off stage. Go to the lab and use debug mode to get a feel for when Ike loses his hitboxes.

Wolf Stages
Ban fd. Ban fd. Ban fd. Avoid anything that promotes Ike's chain grab. I can't think of any stage that gives wolf a huge advantage over ike. Stick to stages like battlefield that have platforms to escape chain grabs.

Closing notes
Wow that was long but hopefully helpful! Just wanted to mention about Ike's tipper system as people unfamiliar with Ike don't always understand it. His sword has three hitboxes, tip, blade and hilt, and then he also has arm hitboxes. The hilt is Ike's sweetspot, being by far the strongest. So if you can di or move a little further from Ike to take a blade or tip hit, do it. The blade and arm hitboxes are equal in power, the arms just not being disjointed. Lastly, the tip is the weakest. However, it's also a little weird in that it has a lower knockback angle, making it a useful tool for gimping.

Edit: In terms of who this favours, I would definitely say wolf. Wolf should be winning neutral 70/30 with his speed. Couple that with a great combo game on a character who gets combo'd hard and things look good. On the other hand, dying from one grab or getting gimped is a very real problem for wolf. I'd say 55/45 wolf.

Wow! I did not expect a response this long. Thanks for the help. You don't really know how much I appreciate the time you took to write this. Thanks

 

[TimeMuffinPhD]

Not had much Ike experience, but Ike is heavy; so b-throw chaingrabs and continuous n-air shines will work on him. Side-B should also be relatively easy to hit. Basically zero to death him whenever you can and don't let him get grabs. Wolf should be able to control space and this matchup in general. Getting him off-stage is probably a good call, stall on ledge and predict what he's going to do.

 

[Will-O-Wisp]

As a Wolf player I've also had success starting combos at early percents with UThrow. Usually UThrow --> Uair --> Utilt --> whatever you want but usually shine --> etc. Classic Nair Shine options also work, but do not spam this recklessly as any smart player will just bait it out and then punish you. And of course Wolf is a spacie, and Ike is a sword character so DON'T GET GRABBED. If you do get grabbed, the best thing you can do is mix up your DI, but you will take some serious damage. I've also found that lasers actually don't have as big of an impact on the matchup as Fox or Falco's lasers do, probably because Wolf lasers are much easier to deal with, but they are still an option.

 

[ProdigyX5]

Short hop laser > Rush atk/Uthrow > U air > Force fast fall > tech recover > U air > Jump > U air or Fair

If you're playing at a stage w/ a moving platform (Smashville), you can realllyy take advantage of it by waiting for the platform to come to his side so you can get that fast fall in quicker.
If he techs it using the platform try to fall through the platform then short hop u air and continue from there.

Just remember that Ikes are usually crazy and the bad ikes are unpredictable