Will this be the smash to reinvent the series?

[Fuqua]

So, new characters are fun. Already theres a lot of different people sharing their character predictions in many different corners of the internet. Clearly the enjoyment people have from experiencing new characters in SSB hasnt subsided...... yet?!?

I cant be the only one who feels this way, but this unique appeal that SSB holds cant go on forever right? Theres only so many characters out there that are interesting to a large number of people and IMO a selectionscreen that exceeds 70 characters just seems ridiculous.

It is clear to me that eventually, SSB will have to reinvent itself. The core gameplay is extremely strong, maybe the focus should shift towards changing and improving that, but the character thing has an expiration date. Has "new character fatigue" already settled in for some of you guys, or are you every bit as enthusiastic about it as you always have been?

 

[Morbi]

So, new characters are fun. Already theres a lot of different people sharing their character predictions in many different corners of the internet. Clearly the enjoyment people have from experiencing new characters in SSB hasnt subsided...... yet?!?

I cant be the only one who feels this way, but this unique appeal that SSB holds cant go on forever right? Theres only so many characters out there that are interesting to a large number of people and IMO a selectionscreen that exceeds 70 characters just seems ridiculous.

It is clear to me that eventually, SSB will have to reinvent itself. The core gameplay is extremely strong, maybe the focus should shift towards changing and improving that, but the character thing has an expiration date. Has "new character" fatigue already settled in for some of you guys, or are you every bit as enthusiastic about that as you were before?

There are not as many choices this time around, let alone any high profile choices. Spring Man and Rex are among the only new ones and older ones such as Ridley and King K. Rool are just recycling old speculation at this point. I hope that Sakurai readdresses the core roster. Breath of the Wild Link is the redesign, so hopefully they do the same to Zelda and even change game-play, possibly replacing the OoT magic with BotW magic. Or just giving Ganondorf his own move-set. Stuff like that. If they make the core roster even better, we have less need for exciting newcomers. Albeit, I bet they will pick up that slack with third-party characters as is.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

It is clear to me that eventually, SSB will have to reinvent itself. The core gameplay is extremely strong, maybe the focus should shift towards changing and improving that, but the character thing has an expiration date. Has "new character" fatigue already settled in for some of you guys, or are you every bit as enthusiastic about that as you were before?

I haven't flipped about new characters in ten years. Who I can play as doesn't matter as much as how they play. It's why I prefer older games in the series.

 

[PSIGuy]

There are not as many choices this time around, let alone any high profile choices. Spring Man and Rex are among the only new ones and older ones such as Ridley and King K. Rool are just recycling old speculation at this point.

We had the Smash ballot just over two years ago, you know. The one that explicitly said "results may be used for future development"? There's not gonna be a shortage of popular characters to sift through. There's also Wii U releases to consider. There's a lot more to work with then what you think.

 

[The Animator]

To answer the question posed in the title; Its very doubtful if Sakurai is still calling the shots. I expect this one will be very much like Smash 4. When/if we get a new ambitious directer for the series we may see some radical changes to the form its current form. Personally I just want it to play more like Melee and Project M, doesn't have to be exactly like those but I want it faster and more offensive based.

 

[Lyndis_]

Only time will tell. I think gameplay wise, it will probably be more of the same from Sm4sh with some smaller changes to the gameplay and maybe rethinking some characters. It's still fresh to many Switch owners who never had a Wii U.

I definitely think by Smash VI we will have an overhaul of the series. There's just no way we're going past a roster of 80, and Nintendo is going to have a hard time pushing a game with a smaller roster to a casual crowd without really bringing new things to the table.

We probably won't have to worry about this issue until at least 2022 though, for better or for worse!

 

[Morbi]

We had the Smash ballot just over two years ago, you know. The one that explicitly said "results may be used for future development"? There's not gonna be a shortage of popular characters to sift through. There's also Wii U releases to consider. There's a lot more to work with then what you think.

In this case, the word "popular" is, um, relative.

No, I definitely looked through most potential characters. Any character I missed is not vaguely within the realm of "popular." Do not get me wrong, I expect surprises, naturally. And I imagine that a lot of the heavy-hitter ballot choices were third-party characters. Bayonetta won the poll, Phil Spencer seemingly gave blanket consent to use Banjo, there was the whole war between Shovel Knight and Shantae, since then, Undertale has rocked the industry and Crash is on the Switch. Those characters will definitely drum up excitement. They are not Nintendo, however.

When one of the biggest character's you can offer is Waluigi, we are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Sorry to say. I am a Nintendo fan as well, and almost any character they reveal will excite almost everyone HERE. But I am talking about beyond hardcore groups of fans. I am talking about the people whose first Nintendo console was the Switch, or people coming back from the Wii era, or your Nintendo fans that believe Samus is Metroid and Link is Zelda. Obviously those are extreme examples, but think of all of the people between them and us, are they going to get excited for Rex and Pyra? Truly?

 

[Jamisinon]

When one of the biggest character's you can offer is Waluigi, we are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. Sorry to say. I am a Nintendo fan as well, and almost any character they reveal will excite almost everyone HERE. But I am talking about beyond hardcore groups of fans. I am talking about the people whose first Nintendo console was the Switch, or people coming back from the Wii era, or your Nintendo fans that believe Samus is Metroid and Link is Zelda. Obviously those are extreme examples, but think of all of the people between them and us, are they going to get excited for Rex and Pyra? Truly?

This is a really good point. I think it also speaks that Nintendo hasn't really had a super strong showing of a NEW character as the most popular are mario, link, kirby, just characters that have been around for decades. Yeah, you could argue well there are the inklings, Shulk, Arms characters, maybe a few I'm missing but like me personally, IDK the names of in the inklings, IDK if they have names. I know who Shulk is and he's prob the first big name protagonist to appear on a Nintendo console since Super Nintendo. It seems like there will always be new fire emblem and pokemon characters but the average person hoping for new characters is likely looking at characters from a storied franchise, donkey kong, zelda, kirby, star fox, mario. There's not a really strong candidate Nintendo 1st party character that I can even think of let alone be excited and hopeful for.

To answer the original question: I hightly doubt it. I think there's not a lot of development time between sm4sh and sma5h (which could still turn out to be sm4.5h). Granted, Melee and 64 are very different so there's still a chance but based on the trend from brawl to sm4sh I'd highly expect the gameplay to remain very similar to sm4sh's. You could almost look at is as sm4sh being a beta, we playtested all the characters, they know what's broken, what's weak and can copy and paste characters or buff/nerf accordingly. Even if the game isn't a port deluxe I still wouldn't expect major changes, but anything is possible.

 

[MarineIris]

I think we might get a new mechanic akin to Final Smashes, but that would be it. Maybe a new attack that has to be charged by landing hits or something. Otherwise, they will probably be satisfied with the gameplay they have now for at least one more game.

Does Smash Bros. need success stories to find newcomers? Earthbound wasn't a success and Ness is here. Ike got in despite the relative obscurity of his games. It seems that only Nintend needs to think that a game is a big release to add it to Smash. What did Nintendo intend to be the biggest releases on the Wii U and 3DS that aren't there already?

Smash Switch will have the luxury of being on a console that has already sold itself, so there is is at least a little less presure on it to sell to casuals and non-Nintendo fans.

 

[LancerStaff]

The short development time and the highly similar art style makes me think that the game will be 99% the same as Smash 4.

 

[GoldTrainRider]

Some major characters (King Boo, Toad, Waluigi, KK Rool, Crash) I feel are nice fits and I would like to see them in, (especially King Boo) but all of the clones take up way to much space imo. Remove some clones, and maybe less or the same amount of TPC and you got a good sized roster that has diversity, new/wanted characters, and is fun for the whole family. Even grandma.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

The short development time and the highly similar art style makes me think that the game will be 99% the same as Smash 4.

Maybe, but not necessarily. 64 and Melee were two years apart.

 

[LancerStaff]

Maybe, but not necessarily. 64 and Melee were two years apart.

Melee also had a rather disappointing amount of clones and felt rushed in a lot of ways. Ultimately it’s the characters that people care about...

Smash 4 was like 90% the same as Brawl. Smash Switch will likely be more of the same.

 

[mjwgamer805]

I agree with the OP in the sense that - yes, new characters will always be exciting to some degree, but this inflation of characters to each installment will cause the game to feel watered down.
I think *WARNING OPINION INCOMING* the game needs some new move sets to a LOT of veterans. It doesn't have to be a complete overhaul or completely different play style, just a handful of moves changed on each character can make a game feel so much more fresh and not like a "ditto" game from Smash 4.

Changing the moves for a character can keep both the nostalgia of whoever the character is plus feel like it's new because they play (slightly of significantly) different.
I also believe this is very doable for Nintendo mainly because the last smash game introduced the possibility of game patches. This creates a sort of safety net for Nintendo to really try new(ish) things in smash 5.
If they really find a character's move problematic, that can be adjusted in a new game patch- something I think is inevitable along with DLC.

Just some thoughts.
In short-- NEW MOVES on VETERAN CHARACTERS instead of just adding 10 new characters to the Smash 4 roster.
This is one of Nintendo's BIGGEST franchises so they can't afford to be lazy with a new smash game.

 

[mjwgamer805]

Melee also had a rather disappointing amount of clones and felt rushed in a lot of ways. Ultimately it’s the characters that people care about...

Smash 4 was like 90% the same as Brawl. Smash Switch will likely be more of the same.

That being said- several mechanics were also introduced in Melee (directional air dodge) that (literally) added a new dimension to the art of fighting.
Smash 4 introduced ledge trumping which made the offstage game completely different than brawl, so I don't think I agree that Nintendo will have a ton of "copy and paste" in Smash 5.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Melee also had a rather disappointing amount of clones and felt rushed in a lot of ways. Ultimately it’s the characters that people care about...

Smash 4 was like 90% the same as Brawl. Smash Switch will likely be more of the same.

Bless you "Muh clones" people. Public schools need to teach why Smash clones even exist.

I don't think anyone, then or now, will agree that the game was rushed. People still play it, listen to its music, and make AMVs of its 2001 CG trailer. Brawl spent three years in development and look what we got for it: the Subspace Emissary, and a mod that surpassed the base game in tournament turnout.

And it truly doesn't matter if you have a cornucopia of characters with unique kits if the underlying mechanics to use them suck. Many people will care only about the characters, sure, but it their loss: praying and receiving, only to never have their fill. These same people will screech if the next original Smash doesn't have 80 characters, or if Sakurai didn't include their Fire Emblem waifu/husbando. You can't please everyone, so why care about the opinions of the rabble?

 

[LancerStaff]

That being said- several mechanics were also introduced in Melee (directional air dodge) that (literally) added a new dimension to the art of fighting.
Smash 4 introduced ledge trumping which made the offstage game completely different than brawl, so I don't think I agree that Nintendo will have a ton of "copy and paste" in Smash 5.

Air dodges weren’t supposed to be this big deal... Which is probably why they were swiftly axed for the Brawl dodges.

I think there’ll probably be something on the scale of ledge trumping but I also think most of the general feel will be the same.

Bless you "Muh clones" people. Public schools need to teach why Smash clones even exist.

I don't think anyone, then or now, will agree that the game was rushed. People still play it, listen to its music, and make AMVs of its 2001 CG trailer. Brawl spent three years in development and look what we got for it: the Subspace Emissary, and a mod that surpassed the base game in tournament turnout.

And it truly doesn't matter if you have a cornucopia of characters with unique kits if the underlying mechanics to use them suck. Many people will care only about the characters, sure, but it their loss: praying and receiving, only to never have their fill. These same people will screech if the next original Smash doesn't have 80 characters, or if Sakurai didn't include their Fire Emblem waifu/husbando. You can't please everyone, so why care about the opinions of the rabble?

I know exactly why they exist. And in Melee they exist because the game was rushed. Something Sakurai has admitted to. What the Smash fanbase tells themselves and what the truth is are often two totally different things.

You whine about putting too much stock in “the rabble” but then you pretend the incredibly niche and insignificant tournament scene matters? Sorry to burst your bubble but tournaments don’t matter and they won’t ever matter.

Smash is a casual franchise. From now until forever they’re going to focus on casuals first and foremost.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I don't think so. Seeing how this one is being developed by HAL Labs again, I see this title being more of a return to what Melee and Brawl were, which, frankly, makes me relieved as ****.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

You whine about putting too much stock in “the rabble” but then you pretend the incredibly niche and insignificant tournament scene matters? Sorry to burst your bubble but tournaments don’t matter and they won’t ever matter.

Smash is a casual franchise. From now until forever they’re going to focus on casuals first and foremost.

Some perspective for you: Casuals don't **** a flying **** how the game is played. As always, they will buy the game no matter what.

And tournaments don't matter? Then why did Nintendo of America feature 17 competitive faces from the Melee & Brawl scenes when they hosted the Invitational back in 2014? Why did they reprint the GameCube controller with a special adapter just for the Wii U? Why did the price of Brawl jump from $30 to $80 when Project M took off? Why did Brawl's price tank once Nintendo started alleging Project M was criminal on its Miiverse censors? Why is Nintendo partnering with CEO and Genesis?

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't think so. Seeing how this one is being developed by HAL Labs again, I see this title being more of a return to what Melee and Brawl were, which, frankly, makes me relieved as ****.

It’s not being developed by HAL, last I heard it’s not confirmed.

There’s the copyright thing which mentions HAL and the original game in every game, including Brawl and 4.

Brawl was developed by team Sora, which is a temporary team that Sakurai got together.

Some perspective for you: Casuals don't **** a flying **** how the game is played. As always, they will buy the game no matter what.

And tournaments don't matter? Then why did Nintendo of America feature 17 competitive faces from the Melee & Brawl scenes when they hosted the Invitational back in 2014? Why did they reprint the GameCube controller with a special adapter just for the Wii U? Why did the price of Brawl jump from $30 to $80 when Project M took off? Why did Brawl's price tank once Nintendo started alleging Project M was criminal on its Miiverse censors? Why is Nintendo partnering with CEO and Genesis?

That’s not true. Dragon Ball is a good example... The trashy button mashers were promptly beaten by FighterZ, even though the former are more “spectacular” and have more characters.

NoA shows support for tournaments to bilk people like you. Not that it matters what they do because NoJ is making a casual oriented game no matter what.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

It’s not being developed by HAL, last I heard it’s not confirmed.

There’s the copyright thing which mentions HAL and the original game in every game, including Brawl and 4.

Brawl was developed by team Sora, which is a temporary team that Sakurai got together.



That’s not true. Dragon Ball is a good example... The trashy button mashers were promptly beaten by FighterZ, even though the former are more “spectacular” and have more characters.

NoA shows support for tournaments to bilk people like you. Not that it matters what they do because NoJ is making a casual oriented game no matter what.

A game can be casual and competitive.

 

[LancerStaff]

A game can be casual and competitive.

So? We’ve seen zero indication that Smash Switch will be any different. You might as well ask for competitive Mario Kart or Party at this point.

With Namco seemingly gone I don’t see things improving on this front either.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

So? We’ve seen zero indication that Smash Switch will be any different. You might as well ask for competitive Mario Kart or Party at this point.

With Namco seemingly gone I don’t see things improving on this front either.

I don't see a reason why Sakurai would completely revert Sma5h to Brawl.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't see a reason why Sakurai would completely revert Sma5h to Brawl.

Just because Smash 4 is somewhat less casual doesn’t mean it isn’t casual.

I refuse to believe a game with 4 Sheik and 4 Zelda in it simultaneously had any real competitive focus at all.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Just because Smash 4 is somewhat less casual doesn’t mean it isn’t casual.

I refuse to believe a game with 4 Sheik and 4 Zelda in it simultaneously had any real competitive focus at all.

Sakurai doesn't hate the competitive community as much as we make it out to be.

 

[LancerStaff]

Sakurai doesn't hate the competitive community as much as we make it out to be.

No, but quite obviously he gives no ****s.

Like not including a ranked mode.

Or not putting any effort into 1v1 balancing.

Or making the tournament mode sudden death rules the opposite of what irl tournaments use.

Or any number of other things really. He does not care at all about competitive play.

 

[Lord-Zero]

He always saw it as a party game. Nothing worth going really competitive for which is why he doesn’t care about the Smash competitive scene.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

smash is a crossover fighter, the major interest of the game is going to be nintendo characters interacting in diferent worlds, and great part of that is waiting for new characters, remember not only you play this game, children and teens wants their own favorites characters, not that only adding the characters is the only thing they can do with them for the matter, they can add more fanservice, like i dont now add more stages,skins,music, modes, more interactions between characters story modes, how about adding more bosses, equipment, gear ,enemies, there is much more that you can do with a new character.

 

[PSIGuy]

The way Nintendo is handling Arms and Splatoon 2 (full patch notes, tournaments) and even Mario Tennis Aces seems to suggest they do in fact care about competitive viability and giving players the opportunity to play that way if they want. Smash might well follow suit and do the same.

 

[LancerStaff]

The way Nintendo is handling Arms and Splatoon 2 (full patch notes, tournaments) and even Mario Tennis Aces seems to suggest they do in fact care about competitive viability and giving players the opportunity to play that way if they want. Smash might well follow suit and do the same.

Nintendo’s not forcing it on them. They chose to make games and support them for tournament play.

Sakurai can do whatever he wants. Likely it’ll be the same thing he’s been doing since Kirby’s Dream Land.

 

[Velvet Rebirth]

I think an important factor in whether or not this will be a reboot is simply IF Sakurai is working on it. Sakurai doesn't put sequels into consideration when he makes games, he makes games with the intention of them being as good as they possibly can, and I think a huge factor into why he always says he's done with Smash is because at the given time he's not sure how he's supposed to top it. Sakurai left HAL and Kirby behind because he was tired of the constant sequelization, so I imagine when it finally comes to the point where the series has no other option but to reboot, he will leave as that would mean he is no longer making the best game he can, he's just making another Smash game.

This is just a theory though, I don't personally know the guy and don't forget that none of you do either.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Nintendo’s not forcing it on them. They chose to make games and support them for tournament play.

Sakurai can do whatever he wants. Likely it’ll be the same thing he’s been doing since Kirby’s Dream Land.

Nintendo could always threaten to decrease Sakurai's pay if they don't do what they say. It's their IP.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think an important factor in whether or not this will be a reboot is simply IF Sakurai is working on it.

That was confirmed minutes after the Direct ended.

Nintendo could always threaten to decrease Sakurai's pay if they don't do what they say. It's their IP.

Lol, gimme a break. Think about what you just said and why it’s stupid and come back to me.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

And i dont think that wanting to return to how melee plays is reinvent itself, more that you want the game to play faster which its a slight modification of the game engine, a reinvent would be like a drastic chance in terms of game structure, like changing how to K.O people, or if the game is no longer is a platfom fighter, and more tradicional one, or if changed to a MOBA or a 3D fighter, these things would fit as reinvent, like how BOTW is a reinvent of Zelda, in my opinion i dont want that because i dont think the current formula has been refined enough.

 

[Velvet Rebirth]

That was confirmed minutes after the Direct ended.

Then it'd would appear we have our theoretical answer

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Lol, gimme a break. Think about what you just said and why it’s stupid and come back to me.

I mean, it could happen. Weirder things have happened in Smash.

 

[PSIGuy]

Nintendo’s not forcing it on them. They chose to make games and support them for tournament play.

Sakurai can do whatever he wants. Likely it’ll be the same thing he’s been doing since Kirby’s Dream Land.

Nintendo can ask him to keep comp play in mind considering how every other Smash had a comp scene. Whether Sakurai listens or not is another story. Strange world we live in where Mario Tennis has a better chance at competitive viability than Smash Bros.

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean, it could happen. Weirder things have happened in Smash.

Yeah no. Just admit you pulled that one out of your ass.

Nintendo’s execs haven’t interfered with anything outside of the occasional suggestion. And Sakurai is pretty big time, so I somehow doubt they would ever suggest such a thing.

Nintendo can ask him to keep comp play in mind considering how every other Smash had a comp scene. Whether Sakurai listens or not is another story. Strange world we live in where Mario Tennis has a better chance at competitive viability than Smash Bros.

They can ask sure. But considering how much it goes against what he stands for... Well I hope these hypothetical people don’t have high hopes.

It’s really not that unusual. Mario Tennis is something that’s inherently built to be competitive. It’s explicitly a 1v1 or 2v2. The mechanics aren’t really comeback mechanics either.

 

[Rocket Raccoon]

Yeah no. Just admit you pulled that one out of your ***.

Nintendo’s execs haven’t interfered with anything outside of the occasional suggestion. And Sakurai is pretty big time, so I somehow doubt they would ever suggest such a thing.



They can ask sure. But considering how much it goes against what he stands for... Well I hope these hypothetical people don’t have high hopes.

It’s really not that unusual. Mario Tennis is something that’s inherently built to be competitive. It’s explicitly a 1v1 or 2v2. The mechanics aren’t really comeback mechanics either.

Of course I pulled that out of my ass. Do you know how Nintendo works? Your theory about what Sakurai does with Sma5h is as good as mine.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Lancer couldn't answer the counter argument that the tournament scene actually is important, so he switched up and is now talking about Nintendo & Sakurai's indifference towards the competitive scene.

Like... yeah? That is why we are even having this discussion to begin with: it doesn't make sense to not appeal to this quarter of the market.

Anyway, those are two different talking points, so just ignore the guy.