Noxuz
Smash Cadet
I dont understand nor do I have any insight of the ban reasons.
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Why were omega stages banned in EVO?
- Thread starter Noxuz
- Start date
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
Mr.Wizard said on twitter it had something to do with their license with Nintendo. Something to do with music as well.
Noxuz
Smash Cadet
Sorry but what does music have to do with omega stages? I still dont understand
E-Mann
Smash Ace
Still doesn't make sense. Sorry. I'm with Noxuz here.
CyberHyperPhoenix
"Download Complete."
I don't remember all too well tbh, it was amongst all the talk with Omega stages getting banned.
Don't be surprised if the music thing had something to do with gentlemen picking banned stages or something lol
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JimmyTheCaterpillar
Smash Ace
It was because of music rights. Some composers of certain songs did not agree to have the songs played for that many people at one time (or something alongside those lines) and did not wish that to happen.
Lot of corporate red tape licensing copyright etc etc type stuff. But yeah, in short, it was because of specific music tracks.
Lot of corporate red tape licensing copyright etc etc type stuff. But yeah, in short, it was because of specific music tracks.
WalrusBiscuit
Smash Journeyman
Im glad that they were. To me they are really boring
Vivillon32238
Smash Rookie
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Off- topic but... where did you get those sprites?
DakotaBonez
The Depraved Optimist
I hope that we can at least see street fighter omega stage and the wrecking crew omega stage as legal counterpicks. They have the best edges for ledge play.
We'd probably need some new counterpicking rules. In between matches players take turns striking stages they don't want to play on. I suppose we'd need three rounds of striking. One round where they take turns striking 15, then 10, then 5, then 3 omega stages at a time (or whatever I didn't check how many stages there are) and a second round where they do the striking of legal stages, and a third round where the last striker picks whether to play the stage as omega or regular. Hmm, but that would pretty much always guarantee a final destination like stage counterpick, thus defeating the purpose of striking. Can someone think of a better system? Maybe just have a few omega stages be counterpicks. But the last round HAS to be played on a legal stage.
We'd probably need some new counterpicking rules. In between matches players take turns striking stages they don't want to play on. I suppose we'd need three rounds of striking. One round where they take turns striking 15, then 10, then 5, then 3 omega stages at a time (or whatever I didn't check how many stages there are) and a second round where they do the striking of legal stages, and a third round where the last striker picks whether to play the stage as omega or regular. Hmm, but that would pretty much always guarantee a final destination like stage counterpick, thus defeating the purpose of striking. Can someone think of a better system? Maybe just have a few omega stages be counterpicks. But the last round HAS to be played on a legal stage.
Turrin
Smash Journeyman
That sounds... Oddly specific. So Nintendo's okay with music that just so happens to be on tournament legal stages, but not Omega stages? What would happen if Nintendo suddenly decided it didn't want battlefield's tracks on stream? Could that throw off competitive play in any way?
JimmyTheCaterpillar
Smash Ace
It specifically had to do with the Pokémon stages. Mr. Wizard felt it was just best to exclude Omegas entirely rather than pick and choose the stages that couldn't be picked.
Also, it was an event Nintendo directly had a hand in, so that's the only reason they could do that in the first place.
JamietheAuraUser
Smash Lord
Why not simply disable the specific tracks that the composers aren't okay with using My Music? I mean, if all the composers for all the songs on a stage say no, that's one thing. But until then….
Commander Fresh
Smash Cadet
With the way the music sliders work, even if they're turned all the way down, there is still an infinitesimally small chance the song will still play.
Noxuz
Smash Cadet
Google :V
I had to edit the size for some because proportions, but just google Smash 4 sprites.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Legal issues aside, Omega stages are not entirely identical to Final Destination. The obscure existence of Grass, different walls/ledges/etc. Slightly different blastzones, too, if I recall.
MarioMeteor
Smash Hero
Yes and no. You can make it so that the music is completely muted or quieter than the sound effects. My only guess for why they didn't do that is because the songs title would still show up on screen, and by the power of Japanese bull****, that would still probably cause copyright issues.
I don't understand why this warranted the termination of all FD stages, and frankly I find that to be a dumb idea on Cueller's part.
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Luggy
Drawing like a tramp
Copyrighted music aside, Omega Stages are not really, quote and quote, "exact copy of FD".
Certain Omega versions gives some characters advantages. For example, Omega stages with walls will help characters with wall jumps, like Mario, Captain Falcon or Lil'Mac. But at the same time, the edgeguard possibilities are reduced, with no wall to spike players (we tech those).
There's also obscure stuff, such as grass. Yeah, grass makes a difference in this game. And don't forget the different ledges and blastzones.
It's better haiving Omega stages off anyway. Most players find them boring.
Not that "Smashville" is more interresting or anything like that.
Certain Omega versions gives some characters advantages. For example, Omega stages with walls will help characters with wall jumps, like Mario, Captain Falcon or Lil'Mac. But at the same time, the edgeguard possibilities are reduced, with no wall to spike players (we tech those).
There's also obscure stuff, such as grass. Yeah, grass makes a difference in this game. And don't forget the different ledges and blastzones.
It's better haiving Omega stages off anyway. Most players find them boring.
Not that "Smashville" is more interresting or anything like that.
Saikyoshi
Smash Master
Otherwise-would-be-legal stages are affected by this, too. Music copyright is the reason Skyloft and Wuhu Island were taken down so soon in the game's life despite having high levels of support.
...you know that's complete and utter bull****, right?
Wall-jumping is counterproductive since it sends you away from the stage. And the difference grass makes is so infinitesimally negligible that it might as well not even be there.
As for boring, how is regular Final Destination any better? My biggest issue with the continued existence of the Melee and 64 metagames is that every match looks exactly the same. Omegas at least provide slight visual and audio variety between matches, and that alone makes it so much more watchable than "Two Foxes wave-camping on Dream Land while the ever-obnoxious Gourmet Race and endless reflector sounds blast at full volume" for the hundred millionth time.
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Luggy
Drawing like a tramp
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Let's seperate your arguments a bit, for more fluidity, shall we ?
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This is not the right way to make your opinion convincing, right off the bat.
Wall jumping has it's utilities. As for an example, let's take Little Mac. This character is known for having the poorest recovery in the game. However, to balance this weakness, developpers gave him a wall jump, thus giving him an other tool to come back on stage.A lot of other examples can show it as well. Mario and Captain Falcon have good benefits having a walljump because they have a repetitive recovery.
It's not counterproductive, it's a tool, a little technique that can help any character who has it to have an other way to come back on stage.
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As for the grass, it does have an impact.
I quote this from the "Wii U Omega Stage Differences" :
You might think it does not affect anything, but you can't ignore the effects it has.
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Final Destination has one factor Omega stages don't : consistency. When you choose the stage, you know how it looks, you know how it plays and you know what characters you want to bring to have an advantage over the other player.
However, with Omega stages, one problem occurs, and that's inconsistency. With all the small changes, from the ledge to the little grass under the feet of fighters, Omega stages don't have a clear balance. However, since we have a clear vision of how Final Destination works, we can have fair matches without caring for those small inconsistencies. Final Destination is the most fair version of all the Omega versions, that's what makes it better.
A slight change in visuals and audio are not important in a match, only for the viewer. When you fight somebody else in competitive, you don't think of how the stages looks or how the music isn't your liking. You simply play.
And finally, Smash 4 has more stages than just FD. Why do you think people prefer playing on Smashville, Town&City or Battlefield (Miiverse stage is prefered though) ? Because they are more fun than one plain stage that, in itself, isn't balanced for every character. We're not talking about Smash 64 or Melee, we're talking about Smash 4. And even if you don't like those 2, have some respect for them.
Your complaints overall are from a spectator view and barely a player one.
In any case, I respect your opinion, so please, respect mine.
Please understand.
Saikyoshi
Smash Master
Of course my opinions are from a spectator view. There's only like eight people on the world who aren't spectators, because the tiny circle of pro players is locked watertight.
Let's seperate your arguments a bit, for more fluidity, shall we ?
This is not the right way to make your opinion convincing, right off the bat.
Wall jumping has it's utilities. As for an example, let's take Little Mac. This character is known for having the poorest recovery in the game. However, to balance this weakness, developpers gave him a wall jump, thus giving him an other tool to come back on stage.A lot of other examples can show it as well. Mario and Captain Falcon have good benefits having a walljump because they have a repetitive recovery.
It's not counterproductive, it's a tool, a little technique that can help any character who has it to have an other way to come back on stage.
As for the grass, it does have an impact.
I quote this from the "Wii U Omega Stage Differences" :
You might think it does not affect anything, but you can't ignore the effects it has.
Final Destination has one factor Omega stages don't : consistency. When you choose the stage, you know how it looks, you know how it plays and you know what characters you want to bring to have an advantage over the other player.
However, with Omega stages, one problem occurs, and that's inconsistency. With all the small changes, from the ledge to the little grass under the feet of fighters, Omega stages don't have a clear balance. However, since we have a clear vision of how Final Destination works, we can have fair matches without caring for those small inconsistencies. Final Destination is the most fair version of all the Omega versions, that's what makes it better.
A slight change in visuals and audio are not important in a match, only for the viewer. When you fight somebody else in competitive, you don't think of how the stages looks or how the music isn't your liking. You simply play.
And finally, Smash 4 has more stages than just FD. Why do you think people prefer playing on Smashville, Town&City or Battlefield (Miiverse stage is prefered though) ? Because they are more fun than one plain stage that, in itself, isn't balanced for every character. We're not talking about Smash 64 or Melee, we're talking about Smash 4. And even if you don't like those 2, have some respect for them.
Your complaints overall are from a spectator view and barely a player one.
In any case, I respect your opinion, so please, respect mine.
Please understand.
Zero, Mew2King, Hungrybox, and a single-digit number of other people who I don't give enough of a rat's ass about to memorize their names. Every Apex, every Evo, every Big House, and every everything else is just that tiny knot of elites over and over and over again.
We are just spectators. YOU'RE just a spectator. That's all we ever will be, and there's nothing that can ever change that. So I feel that entertaining us as spectators is the only thing that matters.
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T
Trick or Treat
Guest
I never liked the idea of perfect balance, as a player and especially as a spectator. I would rather have a slight disadvantage if it means not playing the same stage/character over and over again.
Especially if we are talking about Omega stages.
Especially if we are talking about Omega stages.
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Eggggggggggbert
Smash Apprentice
It doesn't matter how good you are, if you're participating in competitive smash, you care about balance and fairness. I would say there are fewer people who watch the game without playing it (or without wanting to play it, I suppose) than there are in that "tiny knot of elites"
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T
Trick or Treat
Guest
As far as the grass goes, I understand its effects. But how does that matter, isn't every character affected by the reduced slide distance?
Let's seperate your arguments a bit, for more fluidity, shall we ?
This is not the right way to make your opinion convincing, right off the bat.
Wall jumping has it's utilities. As for an example, let's take Little Mac. This character is known for having the poorest recovery in the game. However, to balance this weakness, developpers gave him a wall jump, thus giving him an other tool to come back on stage.A lot of other examples can show it as well. Mario and Captain Falcon have good benefits having a walljump because they have a repetitive recovery.
It's not counterproductive, it's a tool, a little technique that can help any character who has it to have an other way to come back on stage.
As for the grass, it does have an impact.
I quote this from the "Wii U Omega Stage Differences" :
You might think it does not affect anything, but you can't ignore the effects it has.
Final Destination has one factor Omega stages don't : consistency. When you choose the stage, you know how it looks, you know how it plays and you know what characters you want to bring to have an advantage over the other player.
However, with Omega stages, one problem occurs, and that's inconsistency. With all the small changes, from the ledge to the little grass under the feet of fighters, Omega stages don't have a clear balance. However, since we have a clear vision of how Final Destination works, we can have fair matches without caring for those small inconsistencies. Final Destination is the most fair version of all the Omega versions, that's what makes it better.
A slight change in visuals and audio are not important in a match, only for the viewer. When you fight somebody else in competitive, you don't think of how the stages looks or how the music isn't your liking. You simply play.
And finally, Smash 4 has more stages than just FD. Why do you think people prefer playing on Smashville, Town&City or Battlefield (Miiverse stage is prefered though) ? Because they are more fun than one plain stage that, in itself, isn't balanced for every character. We're not talking about Smash 64 or Melee, we're talking about Smash 4. And even if you don't like those 2, have some respect for them.
Your complaints overall are from a spectator view and barely a player one.
In any case, I respect your opinion, so please, respect mine.
Please understand.
Balance and fairness is one thing. But if we are even complaining about Omega stages, of all things, that is kind of a ridiculous extent of "balance". If we can't even play on Omega stages without them being shunned for not having "PERFECT BALANCE", then I just don't know what to say.
Eggggggggggbert
Smash Apprentice
Some characters depend on sliding more than others. The meta of one character may depend on it because they're so used to having a good slide distance where as the meta of another may have ignored sliding because it was so short initially.
Its also a matter of having reasonable counter picking. Its not like each omega is only a slight deviant of FD, some omegas are vastly different than others. Literally, it can be difference of light and death for characters like Little Mac. Any competitive community is hellbent on creating a balanced atmosphere, it can go pretty far.
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T
Trick or Treat
Guest
I just disagree with the "everything should be 100% perfectly equal and balanced" mentality. I find that it goes way too far and for me takes a lot of the fun out of the game. It is called adapting.
Unless there is a stage that either takes almost all skill out of the equation (Orbital Assault, Pyrosphere with Ridley, etc) or makes it almost impossible for one type of character to win, then I see no problem with characters having some disadvantages.
Because if the character is only at a slight disadvantage, a truly good player can adapt. It is just like in real professional sports (and people want gaming to be considered a real sport, right?), especially baseball. Like I said, I would rather have the disadvantage than play on Smashville 8 times in a row. That is not fun for me. I play the game, and intend to start going to more and more tournaments, but having fun comes first.
Luggy
Drawing like a tramp
Your view of competitive play is pretty small, isn't it ? Yeah, sure, we see more of people like Mang0, Leffen, Hbox on the big screen, but you have to remember other players who also compete in tournaments are there. It's the same for every high competitive game, we see the same faces a lot. But that doesn't mean, in any way, that the game only has those players.
And please, have some respect for others. For Melee players, for top players, for "spectators" like me and for any competitive Smash players. Your attitude towards Melee and Smash 64 is becoming obnoxious, and for no reason.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Thoughts on allowing a single Omega stage instead of FD? We still get the (relative) mixup of audio and visuals, and like many tournaments for a while had rules for, most Omegas aren't a tenth as visually distracting as FD (this is why a lot of tournaments have a Palutena's Temple Omega clause in rulesets).
The variety argument remains unaddressed, but even as a fellow spectator, I feel the players are entitled to consistency within the tournament. Much as I'd love to hear some epic Xenoblade music.
Alas, if any character has even a slight advantage, the other will become more popular unless the character is just THAT relatively unpopular (think of Marth vs Lucina. Marth is generally considered the better of the two meh characters, but Lucina has far more players, perhaps stemming from Shadow Dragon's unpopularity versus Awakening's popularity).
As for stage interference, there is a lot to be said (and that has been said in other threads) about different stage designs offering chances for different skills to show. You can't show adaptability as well on FD or even Smashville as on Wuhu or Skyloft. You can't show certain types of hitbox awareness or the same extent of stage control on stages that aren't Pyrosphere, despite how terribly inconvenient Ridley is. Even Orbital Gate Assault is unique among touring stages in the presence of energy walls and exploding platforms, which are consistent and adaptable-to. You can't ceiling-tech, and can scarcely wall-tech, on any conservative stage, and very few liberal stages. You can't have offstage game in Coliseum, and you can't have conveyor-belt or low-gravity or ice strategies outside of Stadium 2.
The trick is deciding which of those skills we value in our competitive environment. That's where people start splitting on how conservative or liberal they are with regards to rules. A lot of times, players (and spectators) just have to deal with competing and watching and enjoying that within the rules.
Otherwise I'd only spectate tournaments with customs and Stadium 2 legal and popularly used =D
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Saikyoshi
Smash Master
It's Gourmet Race, probably. I am so sick of hearing ****ing Gourmet Race over and over again. I hate that damn stage's inclusion as DLC for that reason, too; you can bet that it and Fountain of Dreams are both turned all the way off in My Music.
The metagame was a lot healthier when people weren't so damn conservative about it. When Rainbow Cruise and Corneria were still legal. Even all the Fox mirrors weren't all exactly the same back then.
This community is strangling itself, and the top players are relishing in it. They benefit from this, and not from consistency or balance or anything like that. Metagame stagnation means they don't have to learn as much, which means they don't have to work as hard for their precious thrones. They make more money from a stale metagame, and that's why they push so hard for one.
Am I being unreasonably furious right now? Yes. I'm absolutely livid. They try their damndest to condemn not just this game but the entire series for profit, and you want me to respect these pompous assholes? Not a chance.
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Raijinken
Smash Master
I cannot agree more with this. Sadly, most people ignore that aspect of things and just assume that their skill makes them the uncontestable authorities on what is good or bad for a game.
It's a shame you don't like Fountain of Dreams though. Such a soothing song.
Luggy
Drawing like a tramp
Weren't we talking about, I dunno, Omega stages in Smash 4 ?
Because, yeah, the metagme of Melee isn't progressing. Sure, top players can profit of this. But I don't see what it has to do with Smash 4, or the main discussion.
Feel free to have your opinion man, but don't change the subject from "Why Omega stages were not present at EVO ?" to "My god, I hate competitive Smash 64 and Melee !".
Saikyoshi
Smash Master
Yeah, I did get off topic.
What I was trying to get at before my blind rage distracted me is that by banning omegas when they're not ban-worthy, the same thing's clearly starting to happen to 4 as it did to Melee. Top players push to ban customs and omegas, saying it's for consistency and all that when it's really just for profit.
I say if an omega's not a banworthy stage in its own right, don't ban it. Otherwise, that's just being trigger-happy to arbitrarily ban as many things as possible in my eyes.
I'm against banning things without a reason to ban that specifically. I was even willing to fight for ****ing Dream Land when I heard that it and Miiverse were about to be banned due to being too similar to Battlefield.
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eviljoeybonkers
Smash Apprentice
That really confuses me, considering that Omega stages were made for competitive play.
T
Trick or Treat
Guest
Simply put, my opinion is that people are way to conservative. To me it is going way too far when we just ban stages left and right, and even complain about Omega stages.
I could use a sports analogy, though. I know it sounds silly since baseball and Smash are 2 different things but the concept still applies. Take the MLB for example. There are some fields that differ greatly from all others. Fenway Park has the huge wall in left. Another stadium had a huge pole in Center field, as well as a hill. Other stadiums use turf instead of grass. Some have a huge outfield, or little foul territory, giving the hitter an advantage.
The point is, obviously the home team has an advantage since they are used to it and familiar.
However, the visiting team only has to plan for that factor whenever they visit. In the same way that some stages offer a slight advantage, forcing players to adapt, especially if it is only a rare occurence.
Am I making sense? People are so intent on making eSports a serious thing, so a spprts analogy is fitting.
Raijinken
Smash Master
Makes sense to me as I'm stage-liberal, too. Though it makes less sense in the analogy since players of Smash can practice any stage, character, or custom they want, any time once it's unlocked.
T
Trick or Treat
Guest
Which further proves my point. It's not like it is a total surprise out of nowhere. They can practice everything they want to, how much they want to.
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Some day, Omega Boxing Ring, some day...Great music and allows for Wall Jumps. Also Mac main. Will admit I'm biased.
Though honestly I wonder what track in particular ruined Wuhu Island?
Though honestly I wonder what track in particular ruined Wuhu Island?